Do You Think The Fast & Furious Scandal Is Worse Than Watergate Scandal?

[Vast LWC]

If you brought this case to court, with the evidence provided so far, it would be clearly be thrown out.

Therefore, again, this is a clear waste of taxpayer time and money.

 

[BlindBoo]

Long before the Watergate break-in, gumshoeing, burglary, wiretapping and political sabotage had become a way of life in the Nixon White House.

Woodward and Bernstein: 40 years after Watergate, Nixon was far worse than we thought - The Washington Post

 

[Dr.Drock]

Your accusation is completely unfounded. And it's not really a War on Drugs, it's a war on American citizens who use non-government approved recrational substances. Every instance of President Obama furtherence of that war has been meet with criticism by me. It is a fascist war supported by both parties. End it now and end the violence at our southern border. No more Border Agents or Mexican citizens need to die in that war.

But how can you defend a man, on any subject, when you know his base principles include destroying american liberties so a basically evil government program can be continued?

That's like defending a mass murderer because he regularly takes his dog to the vet.

How can you blame just one man for overall prinicples that have been in play for both parties for the better part of a 100 years?

Isn't that throwing out the baby with the bath water.

I can't, it's all of their fault collectively, not just Obama, but not excluding Obama.

But I'm not going to give a mob boss glowing reviews all day and let him hide under the excuse of "his dad and grandpa did it too" like you're willing to stoop to.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Clear avoidance of the question. Please show evidence of US Officials selling or giving weapons to people that were legally ineligible to buy them.

No avoidance, just acknowledgement that the issue of the case is the sale of weapons to straw buyers for the Mexican drug cartels.

Were there ATF employees posing as gun-sellers in said shops, selling the weapons themselves?

No?

No, they were directing gun store owners to sell to known elements.

Then they were "under surveillance". Sure, the gun shop owners were aware that they were under surveillance, and the owners themselves were not in danger of criminal charges being levied against them, but that makes not a whit of difference to the terminology.

Is that why you claimed that "indictments had been handed down?" Now you claim they were not the subject of the investigation.

The ATF was not supplying the guns to the shop owners, nor were they profiting from the proceeds, and your accusation that the BATF is a "criminal organization" is unfounded and needlessly confrontational.

The BATF is a criminal organization. Incinerate children after framing a cult and using a paramilitary assault on allegations you don't even have the authority to investigate, and be known as a criminal organization.

Your quote does not back up your claim. "Straw Buyers" are legal purchasers of firearms. Thus Holder did not in fact "deliberately sell weapons to known felons and to Mexican nationals". He did nothing of the sort.

Nonsense. Straw Buyers are mules who obtain weapons for illicit buyers.

The weapons were "allowed to walk into mexico" because the ATF could not procure the proper indictments from the prosecutor.

Story #4. I guess the original story that they were trying to follow them to the "big fish" doesn't work well when the Mexican government is kept in the dark in direct violation of international law and treaties in place.

Holder is a crook and had to change his story quick.

No sir.

I realize you've found an Obama apologist, but he plays "fast and loose" to Holder's "fast and furious."

I didn't say the gun store owners had been indicted, I was referring to the Straw Purchasers.

Phrasing matters.

Apparently, your "basic facts" consist entirely of one interview, with one disaffected person involved in the case, with no investigation into any other sources, or the documentation involved itself.

I would highly suggest that you follow your own advice.

I've cited half a dozen sources. You stick with a single Obamabot apologist from Forbes...

 

[BlindBoo]

But how can you defend a man, on any subject, when you know his base principles include destroying american liberties so a basically evil government program can be continued?

That's like defending a mass murderer because he regularly takes his dog to the vet.

How can you blame just one man for overall prinicples that have been in play for both parties for the better part of a 100 years?

Isn't that throwing out the baby with the bath water.

I can't, it's all of their fault collectively, not just Obama, but not excluding Obama.

But I'm not going to give a mob boss glowing reviews all day and let him hide under the excuse of "his dad and grandpa did it too" like you're willing to stoop to.

Hahahahaha, glowing reviews? All day? Just not going to speciously compare Obama and F&F with Nixon and Watergate as in anyway simular.

More in common with Nixon secret bombing of Cambodia to Obamas' Drone war.

Or, Nixon's war on drugs.

Or Nixons fight for universal healthcare.....

 

[Vast LWC]

No avoidance, just acknowledgement that the issue of the case is the sale of weapons to straw buyers for the Mexican drug cartels.

Said "Straw Buyers" being perfectly legal customers in the gun shops in question.

No, they were directing gun store owners to sell to known elements.

"Directing" implies that the gun shop owners wouldn't have otherwise sold said guns to the buyers, and that they needed to be "directed" to do so.

Tell me, if the ATF had never gotten involved in the first place, how would the gun store owners have been able to discern who was a straw purchaser, and who was not?

Thus, they would have sold said guns to the same people without the ATF being there at all.

The only thing the ATF was doing was attempting to monitor the following actions of the straw purchasers after they bought the guns.

Since there was no crime committed by their original purchase of the guns, there was no way the ATF could deny them the ability to buy the guns in the first place, without infringing their second amendment rights.

Is that why you claimed that "indictments had been handed down?" Now you claim they were not the subject of the investigation.

Indictments have been handed down, and arrests have been made of the straw purchasers not the store owners, for reselling the weapons without a license to sell. Which is a misdemeanor.

The BATF is a criminal organization. Incinerate children after framing a cult and using a paramilitary assault on allegations you don't even have the authority to investigate, and be known as a criminal organization.

That is an opinion, not a fact, and describes one incident where some pretty terrible mistakes were made in an attempt to apprehend criminals.

No-one who ran that operation was involved in the Fast-and-Furious operation, and the leadership of both the DoJ and the ATF has changed hands multiple times in the 20 years since Waco.

Nonsense. Straw Buyers are mules who obtain weapons for illicit buyers.

And they are identified how? Their unusually large ears?

Story #4. I guess the original story that they were trying to follow them to the "big fish" doesn't work well when the Mexican government is kept in the dark in direct violation of international law and treaties in place.

Holder is a crook and had to change his story quick.

Which was the M.O. used in the last operation of this type, which failed miserably.

Did you ever stop to think that perhaps the Mexican government is corrupt as hell, and probably has a large population of people within it that leak information to the Cartels?

I realize you've found an Obama apologist, but he plays "fast and loose" to Holder's "fast and furious."

Phrasing matters.

I've cited half a dozen sources. You stick with a single Obamabot apologist from Forbes...

The "Obama apologist" from Fortune Magazine, owned by Time Inc, is getting his information directly from the documentation provided, as well as from all of the other agents involved in the operation.

Your data, from the CBS interview, is from the personal viewpoint of a single, disaffected member of the ATF team.

 

[taichiliberal]

Think progress? Soros? Really?

SPARE US

translation: T cannot refute or disprove the information contained in the link (no less the quote provided), so like the dishonest intellectual coward that he is, T just bluffs and blusters ad nauseum.

Ahh, the willfully ignorant and proud neocon/teabagger flunkie that is "T"....prime meat for Rove, Norquist and the like. Carry on.

YOU don't know what you're posting about.

Stop being a wussy, 'T'......either you can or cannot refute the information I provided regarding Issa's statement. Anything else is just pure neocon/teabagger bluff and bluster on your part. Grow up, T.

 

[Vast LWC]

Stop being a wussy, 'T'......either you can or cannot refute the information I provided regarding Issa's statement. Anything else is just pure neocon/teabagger bluff and bluster on your part. Grow up, T.

Yeah, though he's right about the source...

It's one thing to write off a source if it's their opinion on something...

It's quite another thing if the source is making a direct, verifiable quote.

 

[Abatis]

Said "Straw Buyers" being perfectly legal customers in the gun shops in question.

It is a federal felony to lie on ATF form 4473 about the actual disposition of the firearm.

Tell me, if the ATF had never gotten involved in the first place, how would the gun store owners have been able to discern who was a straw purchaser, and who was not?

That the ATF "got" involved was because the FFL called them about how to proceed with suspicious sales.

The only thing the ATF was doing was attempting to monitor the following actions of the straw purchasers after they bought the guns.

Yes, the sales were monitored, Acting ATF Director Melson had Lone Wolf Trading wired for live video feed to his office in DC . . . The travels of the weapons after they left the store was not something that was done in every instance and if done it was usually broken off when the guns arrived at the known stash houses. After that they went into the wind.

Since there was no crime committed by their original purchase of the guns, there was no way the ATF could deny them the ability to buy the guns in the first place, without infringing their second amendment rights.

The entire investigatory and prosecutorial role of the ATF and the US Attorney's office was altered in Fast and Furious (and Project Gunrunner as a whole, to align with and offer cover for Fast and Furious tactics).

In Fast and Furious, statutory strawbuying crimes were ignored and even facilitated in the hope that large conspiracy cases could be brought against those who were supplying the money for the guns, taking the orders of the Sinaloa Cartel. The only time that strawbuyers were to be arrested was after these extended investigations were over.

In Fast and Furious, unlike the historical action of ATF, strawbuyers were treated much differently:

• "Straw purchasers will continue to be investigated and prosecuted according to their overall level of culpability and cooperation. Straw purchasers must be held accountable for their conduct and made ineligible to purchase or possess firearms in the future. However, straw purchasers should more frequently be viewed as persons whose conduct should be investigated as part of a larger conspiracy and as persons whose information, cooperation, and assistance should be exploited to the extent possible in furtherance of the ultimate goal of identifying key members of the trafficking enterprise and disrupting and/or dismantling of the trafficking operation."

This was a striking departure from ATF practice:

• "Historically, ATF has placed much emphasis on the roles of the straw purchaser and the Federal firearms licensee in identifying and disrupting firearms trafficking schemes."

Problem was:

• "straw purchasers by definition lack serious criminal records . . . are also an easily replaced component of the trafficking scheme and the criminal laws that ATF generally relies upon to investigate and prosecute straw purchasers do not expose these violators to significant criminal penalties."

So, the decision was made IN WASHINGTON DC to alter the investigatory role of ATF and the Arizona US Attorney's criteria for prosecution.

• "Therefore, to more effectively disrupt firearms trafficking operations and to make our cases more appealing for criminal prosecution, greater emphasis will be placed on targeting the persons with greater responsibility for the trafficking schemes. In furtherance of this goal, we will attempt to conduct investigations focusing greater attention on the cartels that finance and direct these trafficking operations. "

The inherent dangers of allowing guns to walk, especially when trafficked in "high volume" was recognized; those guns would be in the hands of criminals and should be expected to be used in crime. Of course the threshold of "how bad does it get before we shut is down" is a fuzzy area.

We now know that none of the criteria offered below was heeded, even though they all had been met by the time this was written, a year after Fast and Furious began. In hindsight, I guess it can be assumed that as long as it was just Mexicans getting killed everything was groovy.

• "There are also practical considerations that may require bringing investigations to a conclusion or dictate a change in investigative tactics prior to the identification of persons directly affiliated with the DTOs. Examples include high volume trafficking investigations in which numerous diverted firearms identifiable with one or more purchasers are being used in violent crimes and recovered by law enforcement, and high volume trafficking investigations in which over an extended period ATF cannot reasonably determine where or to whom such firearms are being trafficked. SACs must closely monitor and approve such investigations, assessing the risks associated with prolonged investigation with limited or delayed interdiction. In some instances, the best answer may be to provide actionable intelligence to other law enforcement agencies and/or the Government of Mexico."

"THE RISKS ASSOCIATED WITH PROLONGED INVESTIGATION WITH LIMITED OR DELAYED INTERDICTION"


The claim now that the ATF agents in Phoenix were powerless to stop the strawbuying is actually true but not for the ridiculous reasons given here (Arizona state gun laws / NRA power etc) stated only to give political cover for irresponsible if not unlawful DOJ/ATF policy that facilitated criminal activity including murder.

(Preceding quotes from; ATF Office of Field Operations Directive, Project Gunrunner – A Cartel Focused Strategy , September 2010. I can't post links yet, first hit to msmbc in a Google search for - Project Gunrunner – A Cartel Focused Strategy - with get it for you --370KB pdf)

 

[Abatis]

Indictments have been handed down, and arrests have been made of the straw purchasers not the store owners, for reselling the weapons without a license to sell. Which is a misdemeanor.

The strawbuyers were FBI informants. Whatever you think their charges say about them understand that throughout the Fast and Furious investigation these guys were detained many times and let go, including the ringleader of the strawbuyers, Manual Celis-Acosta.

I would ask you to provide your source where the charges brought on the various buyers are listed and to confirm that none of them are felonies.

Did you ever stop to think that perhaps the Mexican government is corrupt as hell, and probably has a large population of people within it that leak information to the Cartels?

No doubt about that. Which brings us to the "other side" of Fast and Furious (which armed the Sinaloa Cartel). The other side, the Zeta's, the sometime enemies of the Sinaloas were getting guns from the US too, but not from the "parade of ants" in F&F . . .

They were getting them the way the Zeta's always did, by diverting them from the Mexican government, usually being directly given to them by corrupt officials.

And there were even more guns in that pipeline beginning in 2009 when the US State Department increased TENFOLD the number of good ol' USA assault weapons sold to Mexico (from Bush era #'s) to nearly 20,000 (in just 2009). This increase happened despite State's own audits showing a 26% diversion rate to the cartels which, if their data is reliable, means as many as 5000 guns went to the Zeta Cartel. Not surprisingly, the State Department refuses to release the number of guns sold to Mexico in 2010 and 2011.

Remember, back when Obama first took office it was all about guns being found at Mexican crime scenes and his totally deceptive statement that "90% of guns found in mexico were traced back to the USA!" . . . Those gun traces didn't necessarily need to end at gun DEALERS to make the point, they just needed to be traced back to the USA as the "source" (wink, wink).

Which brings us to where we are now . . .

It's my opinion that F&F and the State Department's fire sale was all intended to make that claim become true, Hmmmmmm. . .

The "Obama apologist" from Fortune Magazine, owned by Time Inc, is getting his information directly from the documentation provided, as well as from all of the other agents involved in the operation.

Your data, from the CBS interview, is from the personal viewpoint of a single, disaffected member of the ATF team.

The Forbe's piece (written by a woman BTW) is revisionist history. Phoenix Group VII's Supervisor Voth's statements are directly refuted by testimony under oath of dozens of people including agents of Phoenix Group VII who were on the ground knee deep in it every day. The couple documents held up as proof are a joke.

You want to read something try the Congressional Record from June 28th. Issa put a tremendous amount of info into the record including reports from both the majority and minority members. Issa brilliantly read passages from the wiretap applications that a whistleblower gave the Oversight Committee, they are enlightening and condemning.

So yeah, to someone who has read NOTHING but that Forbe's article I can understand why it would appear compelling. As someone who has been following this since January of 2011 that article is nothing but propaganda for the ignorant masses.

 

[Vast LWC]

It is a federal felony to lie on ATF form 4473 about the actual disposition of the firearm.

And how exactly would you prove that the buyers intended to resell the weapons?

Do you have some sort of "thought police"-type device that you'd like to share with us?

That the ATF "got" involved was because the FFL called them about how to proceed with suspicious sales.

Reeeaaaally...

Please cite your source, and data to back up this claim.

As far as I know, Fast and Furious was conceived at the director level, not as a response to gun store owners.

I would be quite interested to see proof to the contrary.

Yes, the sales were monitored, Acting ATF Director Melson had Lone Wolf Trading wired for live video feed to his office in DC . . . The travels of the weapons after they left the store was not something that was done in every instance and if done it was usually broken off when the guns arrived at the known stash houses. After that they went into the wind.

Because the ATF agents would need warrants and indictments to raid said "stash houses", and, as has already been mentioned, they were unable to procure either.

The entire investigatory and prosecutorial role of the ATF and the US Attorney's office was altered in Fast and Furious (and Project Gunrunner as a whole, to align with and offer cover for Fast and Furious tactics).

In Fast and Furious, statutory strawbuying crimes were ignored and even facilitated in the hope that large conspiracy cases could be brought against those who were supplying the money for the guns, taking the orders of the Sinaloa Cartel. The only time that strawbuyers were to be arrested was after these extended investigations were over.

Which "statutory strawbuying crimes", specifically? Do you have an example of a case where this occurred?

Under what law would the primary buyers be prosecuted without specific proof of the secondary sale?

In Fast and Furious, unlike the historical action of ATF, strawbuyers were treated much differently:

• "Straw purchasers will continue to be investigated and prosecuted according to their overall level of culpability and cooperation. Straw purchasers must be held accountable for their conduct and made ineligible to purchase or possess firearms in the future. However, straw purchasers should more frequently be viewed as persons whose conduct should be investigated as part of a larger conspiracy and as persons whose information, cooperation, and assistance should be exploited to the extent possible in furtherance of the ultimate goal of identifying key members of the trafficking enterprise and disrupting and/or dismantling of the trafficking operation."

This was a striking departure from ATF practice:

• "Historically, ATF has placed much emphasis on the roles of the straw purchaser and the Federal firearms licensee in identifying and disrupting firearms trafficking schemes."

Problem was:

• "straw purchasers by definition lack serious criminal records . . . are also an easily replaced component of the trafficking scheme and the criminal laws that ATF generally relies upon to investigate and prosecute straw purchasers do not expose these violators to significant criminal penalties."

So, the decision was made IN WASHINGTON DC to alter the investigatory role of ATF and the Arizona US Attorney's criteria for prosecution.

• "Therefore, to more effectively disrupt firearms trafficking operations and to make our cases more appealing for criminal prosecution, greater emphasis will be placed on targeting the persons with greater responsibility for the trafficking schemes. In furtherance of this goal, we will attempt to conduct investigations focusing greater attention on the cartels that finance and direct these trafficking operations. "

The inherent dangers of allowing guns to walk, especially when trafficked in "high volume" was recognized; those guns would be in the hands of criminals and should be expected to be used in crime. Of course the threshold of "how bad does it get before we shut is down" is a fuzzy area.

We now know that none of the criteria offered below was heeded, even though they all had been met by the time this was written, a year after Fast and Furious began. In hindsight, I guess it can be assumed that as long as it was just Mexicans getting killed everything was groovy.

So, since they couldn't prosecute straw purchasers, they decided to try for the big fish.

Still not seeing the issue here.

Do you feel that attempting to charge straw purchasers with misdemeanor crimes, crimes that were extremely hard to prove in the first place, would have stemmed the tide of 2,000 guns A DAY that the ATF estimated were moving into Mexico from the US?

• "There are also practical considerations that may require bringing investigations to a conclusion or dictate a change in investigative tactics prior to the identification of persons directly affiliated with the DTOs. Examples include high volume trafficking investigations in which numerous diverted firearms identifiable with one or more purchasers are being used in violent crimes and recovered by law enforcement, and high volume trafficking investigations in which over an extended period ATF cannot reasonably determine where or to whom such firearms are being trafficked. SACs must closely monitor and approve such investigations, assessing the risks associated with prolonged investigation with limited or delayed interdiction. In some instances, the best answer may be to provide actionable intelligence to other law enforcement agencies and/or the Government of Mexico."

"THE RISKS ASSOCIATED WITH PROLONGED INVESTIGATION WITH LIMITED OR DELAYED INTERDICTION"

The claim now that the ATF agents in Phoenix were powerless to stop the strawbuying is actually true but not for the ridiculous reasons given here (Arizona state gun laws / NRA power etc) stated only to give political cover for irresponsible if not unlawful DOJ/ATF policy that facilitated criminal activity including murder.

(Preceding quotes from; ATF Office of Field Operations Directive, Project Gunrunner – A Cartel Focused Strategy , September 2010. I can't post links yet, first hit to msmbc in a Google search for - Project Gunrunner – A Cartel Focused Strategy - with get it for you --370KB pdf)

What are you even talking about here?

The ATF could not charge the straw buyers with anything when they bought the guns, BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT COMMITTING A CRIME.

Under not only Arizona law, but existing US law, it is perfectly legal for someone to walk around various gun shops and buy 600 guns in a single say. An event which was actually recorded by the ATF at one point.

Even after they finally began to charge the straw buyers, it was for misdemeanors, like selling guns without a license, and those were on the very few that they could even prove re-sold the weapons in the first place.

 

[logical4u]

If you get a supeona, and you ignore it, procrastinate, tell the investigative comittee that you don't "think" they need the requested info, you will go to jail. Holder did just that. He ignored the supeona/he procrastinated by implying that he intended to comply/and then he told the investigative comittee that he didn't believe they needed the requested documents (and what he gave them should be sufficient). If you or I did that, we would be in jail.

But you see, I wouldn't get a subpoena in the first place, since this case would never have gone to court.

There is no reasonable suspicion of criminal activity in the first place for a court case to be brought against the ATF and the DoJ.

Nor is there causation in evidence for a civil case to be brought by the slain border patrol agent, which was part of Congresses justification.

The point I am making is that the entire preceding is not justified to begin with. So the subpoena is completely besides the point.

When you have "whistleblowers" giving information about activity that is EXTREMELY unethical, and possibly unlawful, it must be investigated. In this country (at least until recently), the integrity of the gov't was very important to the gov't and the taxpayers. We do not know what was given by the whistleblowers.... we do know it was enough to start an investigation. Now, the administration has to follow the law, or again the President will break his oath to uphold the Constitution.

I get it, that there are many people that think the corrupt that are in office because of them will not turn on "them". This administration turns on every person/group that tries to cooperate or assist it. They will embrace that corruption and vote for a fraud, again. Then the same people that hold no politicians (on their ticket) to standards will whine and cry the corporations (mainly run by corrupt ex-politicians) are evil and don't care about the "little guy". Know that "you" gave them the power to treat you like dirt, and you are choosing to put in a whole administration that is (IMHO) more corrupt than any administration in the history of this nation. Not only does their leader hate this country, he has convinced a huge percentage that by hurting other people, it will make their lives better, and they (the voters) will not think about voting for what is best for the country, only that they have a chance at hurting someone else. It is "envy" at its worst.

 

[logical4u]

Obama & Holder's weapons are still in the hands of brutal drug gangs. More will be slaughtered. Shame on the Democrat Bootlickers.

Call them what they are terrorists

Would that be "far left" terrorists?

 

[logical4u]

Well from what I understand the federal agents were ordered to shoot bean bag rounds first. After they did that they were killed ina hail of bullets from the Cartel members.

Sad that the Republicans would try and use his death in such a partisan witch hunt.

I still don't get your Goose Stepping on this. This is a horrifying abuse of power by our Government. What do you owe Obama, Holder, and the Democratic Party? Why defend them so vigorously?

Hahaha being called goose stepper by partisan hacks means nothing. I'm sick of you and the Republicans trying to capitalize on this agents death in a partisan attack on the current administration. May as well attack the gun manufactors as well as the NRA for that matter. Both are more culpablitiy than the AG or President when it come to death by gun.

Yeah.... cause if we didn't have guns we would all be speakin' German an' sayin' High Hitler!

 

[logical4u]

Long before the Watergate break-in, gumshoeing, burglary, wiretapping and political sabotage had become a way of life in the Nixon White House.

Woodward and Bernstein: 40 years after Watergate, Nixon was far worse than we thought - The Washington Post

Egads, do you mean Obama is worse than we thought???? We are all in deep shit in that case. But those that hated Nixon and thought he was wrong will kiss all over Obama and vote for the fraud, again.

 

[Neotrotsky]

Do You Think The Fast & Furious Scandal Is Worse Than Watergate Scandal?

Since people died

most likely

 

[Unkotare]

On a side-note, the War on Drugs has failed miserably.

No it hasn't.

 

[Unkotare]

There are Millions & Millions of Americans locked away in our Prisons who just don't belong there.

No there aren't.

 

[Abatis]

And how exactly would you prove that the buyers intended to resell the weapons?

Fast and furious began in September of '09, by December ATF had identified 15 strawbuyers that had purchased 500 guns. Fifty had already been recovered in Mexico by that time with very short "time to crime" periods (as short as one day).

• "By December 18, 2009, ATF agents assigned to Fast and Furious had already identified fifteen interconnected straw purchasers in the targeted gun trafficking ring. These straw purchasers had already purchased 500 firearms. In a biweekly update to Bill Newell, ATF Group Supervisor David Voth explained that 50 of the 500 firearms purchased by straw buyers had already been recovered in Mexico or near the Mexican border. These guns had time-to-crimes of as little as one day, strongly indicating straw purchasing.
  
  As recorded in the Congressional Record, June 28, 2012, attributed to E-mails between Kevin Simpson, Intelligence Officer, Phoenix FIG, ATF, and David Voth (Dec. 18, 2009)

Do you have some sort of "thought police"-type device that you'd like to share with us?

No, it is not ready for public release at this time.

As far as I know, Fast and Furious was conceived at the director level, not as a response to gun store owners.

I'm not saying that the program was started by FFL's, I'm just saying that the FFL's called ATF about certain suspicious sales to individuals who became the primary strawbuying targets in F&F. That led to the gun shops being wired up and told by ATF to sell guns to anyone and everyone with a heartbeat and $$$$ that came in.

Because the ATF agents would need warrants and indictments to raid said "stash houses", and, as has already been mentioned, they were unable to procure either.

But not because of the lack of actionable probable cause or citable law but because of the complete reworking of the prosecution doctrine from DoJ and Phoenix US Attorney's office. That's why Phoenix ATF agents, out of frustration and desperation, began taking that type of evidence, being turned away by AUSA's, to the Arizona State's Attorney for indictments. A conviction, even under shorter state sentence guidelines is better than no conviction and letting the criminals walk (especially with assault weapons and 50 cal sniper rifles).

• "In my opinion, my professional opinion, dozens of firearms traffickers were given a pass by the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the District of Arizona. Despite the existence of “probable cause” in many cases, there were no indictments, no prosecutions, and criminals were allowed to walk free. In short, their office policies, in my opinion, helped pave a dangerous path.
  
  Fortunately, the same could not be said of the Arizona Attorney General’s Office – state prosecutors – to which we agents were forced to turn for prosecution of firearm cases. Victor Varela and his associates, who trafficked .50 caliber rifles directly to Mexican Drug Cartels, one of which was used to kill a Mexican military commander were successfully prosecuted by the Arizona Attorney General’s Office. This was after the case had been declined for federal prosecution by Assistant U.S. Attorney Emory Hurley due to what he referred to as “corpus delecti” issues.
  
  Mr. Varela, sadly, was released from prison last July, because of lesser sentencing guidelines that applied in state court, but the alternative- no prosecution- in my eyes was unacceptable.
  
  Another case, which involved a corrupt federal firearms licensee, who was supplying guns to several firearms trafficking organizations, was declined by Mr. Hurley. This particular dealer, in his post- arrest statement, admitted that “approximately 1000 of his firearms” were trafficked to Mexico. Over one half -dozen of that dealer’s firearms were located around the body of Arturo Beltran-Leyva, the head of Beltran-Leyva Cartel, after he was killed in a fierce gun battle with the Mexican Naval Infantry in Cuernavaca, Mexico.
  
  Due the recalcitrance of the United States Attorney’s Office, cases such as these were presented for prosecution to the Arizona Attorney General’s office, where state law carries lesser penalties than they did under the federal statute. I believe that this situation, wherein the United States Attorney’s Office for the District of Arizona in Phoenix particularly, declined most of our firearm cases, was at lest one factor which led to the debacle that is now known as “Operation Fast and Furious.”
  
  ATF Special Agent Peter Forcelli, testimony before the House Committee on Government Oversight and Reform, June 6, 2011

Do you believe that completely ignoring all gun sale law violations, even by corrupt FFL's, is something a regional Assistant US Attorney can implement by himself?

So, since they couldn't prosecute straw purchasers, they decided to try for the big fish.

Still not seeing the issue here.

The "trying for the big fish" was smoke and mirrors; it was an excuse to put thousands of guns into the hands of narco-terrorists . . . There was no law-enforcement aspect of this operation at all. There was no interdiction, there was no tracking, it was just give them the guns and send them on their way and we'll see where the "chips" fall. The more guns that can be "traced back to the USA" the further the agenda gets advanced.

I never thought I would say this but I feel sorry for the ATF especially the guys in the trenches. You watch their testimonies and you can see the grief, helplessness and dejection in their faces. The Phoenix ATF was handicapped no matter which way they went. The US attorney refused to indict on offenses that were the normal domain of ATF; laws and regulations on the domestic manufacture, distribution and sale of guns . . . Instead they were told to develop cases of international arms trafficking which is not even within their lawful jurisdiction!

If one wants to believe the the arguments from the left (like the Fortune story for instance) you need to ignore the interplay of the players in an OCDETF operation beyond the ATF . . . like the Undercover Operational Committee (NSC/DoJ/FBI), the State Department by way of the Export Control Act (ITAR-International Traffic in Arms Regulations) and State's enforcement arm of arms trafficking law, DHS/ICE.

Understanding that interplay and the organizational command and control of such a multi-agency operation puts certain events into focus. Primarily, Patrick Cunningham (was criminal division chief at the Phoenix office of the U.S. Attorney's Office for the District of Arizona) refusing to appear before House Oversight and invoking his 5th Amendment right against self incrimination and of course, the President invoking Executive Privilege.

One thing's for sure, it's gonna get fun. I can't wait for the DOJOIG's report. It will hopefully be conclusive and complete (after all, Holder gave them 10X the documents surrendered to Congress) for I fear if it isn't, and it reads like that Fortune article, a torrent of whistleblowers will unleash a tsunami of documents that will expose the OIG as a rubber stamp for Holder, Clinton, Napolitano and this entire corrupt administration (at best).

 

[Abatis]

Which "statutory strawbuying crimes", specifically? Do you have an example of a case where this occurred?

I doubt you would be asking that question if you knew how far out of the ordinary Fast and Furious tactics were. Yours is the hypothetical question of an apologist.

Under what law would the primary buyers be prosecuted without specific proof of the secondary sale?

These were not guys "reselling" guns running them from Alabama to New York City and opening their trunk . . . These guys of meager means were spending tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars with a shopping list provided by cartel agents or the cartels themselves and then delivering the guns to smugglers (or smuggling them themselves).

AG Holder himself was briefed multiple times beginning at the latest in July of 2010 that:

• " . . . the National Drug Intelligence Center Document and Media Exploitation Team at the Phoenix Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force (OCTDETF) Strike Force will support the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives’ Phoenix Field Division with its investigation of Manuel Celis-Acosta as part of OCDETF Operation Fast and Furious. This investigation, initiated in September 2009 in conjunction with the Drug Enforcement Administration, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and the Phoenix Police Department, involves a Phoenix-based firearms trafficking ring headed by Manual Celis-Acosta. Celis-Acosta and [redacted] straw purchasers are responsible for the purchase of 1,500 firearms that were then supplied to Mexican drug trafficking cartels. They also have direct ties to the Sinaloa Cartel which is suspected of providing $1 million for the purchase of firearms in the greater Phoenix area. "

Quite a succinct and straightforward description of the operation that kinda runs counter to the current spin from DOJ and 'just found the story' media apologists.

That the purchase of those 1500 weapons was under surveillance, that the suspects were known and it seems, plain knowledge that all those guns "were then supplied to Mexican drug trafficking cartels" it seems kinda hard to deny that gunwalking wasn't known about in the chain of command at DOJ midyear 2010.

Still not seeing the issue here.

That's fine, I'm not really expecting you to. That doesn't dissuade me in the least from rebutting you and exposing your incorrect assumptions

Do you feel that attempting to charge straw purchasers with misdemeanor crimes, crimes that were extremely hard to prove in the first place, would have stemmed the tide of 2,000 guns A DAY that the ATF estimated were moving into Mexico from the US?

I have never heard such a preposterous number even when the ridiculous 90% number and other pulled out of Hillary's ass numbers were being thrown around. Please name your source for that.

What are you even talking about here?

The ATF could not charge the straw buyers with anything when they bought the guns, BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT COMMITTING A CRIME.

We have seen in my previous post that your statements are wrong there. Crimes were committed but the US Attorney refused to indict because of a radical policy change where these statutory violations were ignored.

I wasn't "talking" about the crimes to be charged . . . Under this new, radical investigatory scheme as executed in Fast and Furious, there never would be anyone to charge. The guns were allowed to simply go into the wind with zero intent or attempt to actually follow or track them to discover who the "big fish" were. It was, as I said, an engineered failure designed only to put thousands of guns in the hands of the Sinaloa Cartel.

But since you claim to be confused, let's parse this most important paragraph from ATF's Office of Field Operations Directive, Project Gunrunner – A Cartel Focused Strategy , September 2010:

• "There are also practical considerations that may require bringing investigations to a conclusion or dictate a change in investigative tactics prior to the identification of persons directly affiliated with the DTOs.

Due to, LOL, "practical considerations", this crazy shit might need to be ended before we find the "big fish":

• Examples include high volume trafficking investigations in which numerous diverted firearms identifiable with one or more purchasers are being used in violent crimes and recovered by law enforcement,

Which is exactly what was seen in F&F; a few (15) buyers, well known to ATF were, within 9 months of the program's inception "responsible for the purchase of 1,500 firearms that were then supplied to Mexican drug trafficking cartels."

• and high volume trafficking investigations in which over an extended period ATF cannot reasonably determine where or to whom such firearms are being trafficked.

Again, exactly what happened in F&F but the program wasn't shut down until Agent Terry's death.

• SACs must closely monitor and approve such investigations, assessing the risks associated with prolonged investigation with limited or delayed interdiction.

No shit but we need to get more traceable guns down there . . . It's only Mexicans getting killed . . . Oh nevermind COVERUP COVERUP COVERUP .

• In some instances, the best answer may be to provide actionable intelligence to other law enforcement agencies and/or the Government of Mexico.

Can't do that, we've been keeping it a secret all this time and ICE has been told to stand down all this time by NSC.

And I commented:

The claim now that the ATF agents in Phoenix were powerless to stop the strawbuying is actually true but not for the ridiculous reasons given here (Arizona state gun laws / NRA power etc) stated only to give political cover for irresponsible if not unlawful DOJ/ATF policy that facilitated criminal activity including murder.​

I think that's pretty self-explanatory.

it is perfectly legal for someone to walk around various gun shops and buy 600 guns in a single say. An event which was actually recorded by the ATF at one point.

Citation please.

Even after they finally began to charge the straw buyers, it was for misdemeanors, like selling guns without a license, and those were on the very few that they could even prove re-sold the weapons in the first place.

You are quite stuck on this "reselling" schtick aren't you? That tells me you really are not familiar with the facts of this issue.

I asked earlier and I'll ask again for your source for what the Fast and Furious strawbuyers were actually charged with. The crime of selling guns without a license is a separate crime from strawbuying. One could be charged selling off one's long-held collection at a gunshow for instance.

The crime of strawbuying, more specifically, lying on form 4473 as to the intended dispensation of the firearm, is a felony. The transfer of the firearm to a person who is prohibited to own a firearm is another felony for both people.