Do You Think The Fast & Furious Scandal Is Worse Than Watergate Scandal?

[Rinata]

If you really want to know about fast and furious, watch this video. Whether or not you like Rachel Maddow, the woman does her homework and knows what she's talking about. That's why I like her.

Rachel Maddow explains what the hell ‘Fast and Furious’ is all about

On Wednesday night’s edition of “The Rachel Maddow Show,” host Rachel Maddow explained exactly what’s going on with “Fast and Furious,” and why House Republicans voted to hold Attorney General Eric Holder, Jr. in contempt of Congress.

We now live in what Maddow calls a “bifurcated society,” in which conservative Americans get all of their news strictly from conservative sources and everyone else gets their information from a more heterogenous group of sources, hopefully. As a result, at times people on the right seem to be speaking an entirely different language than other people. Yesterday was one of those times.

The “Fast and Furious” flap building on Capitol Hill is an instance of Republicans in power trying to transfer a phenomenon out of their tightly controlled, information-proof right wing news bubble and manifest it in the real world. Whether the controversy will survive the transition remains to be seen.

The whole mess, however, has its origins in the fevered imaginings of Alabama militiaman Michael Vanderboegh, a blogger and writer of Timothy McVeigh-inspired anti-federal government fiction.

It’s Vanderboegh who cooked up the conspiracy fantasy that “Fast and Furious” is all part of President Barack Obama’s sinister master plan to take away America’s guns.

“Operation Fast and Furious” was a plan begun under the Bush administration that intentionally allowed unauthorized guns to be sold with the intention of following those guns and seeing if they would lead to Mexican drug cartels.

“Whatever you think of that style of law enforcement program, whatever you may think of the George W. Bush administration for beginning it or the Obama administration for continuing it,” said Rachel, “To this militia blogger guy, to the ‘Break their windows, break them NOW’ guy, this got re-imagined as a conspiracy to eliminate the Second Amendment.”

And of course, whenever right wingers think their gun ownership rights may be threatened, they tend to go full-tilt-boogie batshit cuckoo crazy, which is exactly what has happened.

Rachel Maddow explains what the hell ‘Fast and Furious’ is all about | The Raw Story

 

[Rinata]

Who died during Watergate? Who was using a gun running program to be able to push for more support of new gun laws?

Yes this does fit you

Are you claiming that Obama and Holder shot that agent? Sometimes cops do stupid things, that wind up getting good guys killed. I'm not sure what happened here yet, and where the fault should go.

Well Obama did say he killed bin Laden, even though he was thousands of miles away. So if he could kill bin laden, then sure he could kill Brian Terry.

That's really dumb, even for a member of the new 3 stooges. Get help.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Are you claiming that Obama and Holder shot that agent? Sometimes cops do stupid things, that wind up getting good guys killed. I'm not sure what happened here yet, and where the fault should go.

Well Obama did say he killed bin Laden, even though he was thousands of miles away. So if he could kill bin laden, then sure he could kill Brian Terry.

That's really dumb, even for a member of the new 3 stooges. Get help.

HELL YOU'RE BIG ENOUGH TO BE ALL THREE FAT ASS.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

If you really want to know about fast and furious, watch this video. Whether or not you like Rachel Maddow, the woman does her homework and knows what she's talking about. That's why I like her.

Rachel Maddow explains what the hell ‘Fast and Furious’ is all about

On Wednesday night’s edition of “The Rachel Maddow Show,” host Rachel Maddow explained exactly what’s going on with “Fast and Furious,” and why House Republicans voted to hold Attorney General Eric Holder, Jr. in contempt of Congress.

We now live in what Maddow calls a “bifurcated society,” in which conservative Americans get all of their news strictly from conservative sources and everyone else gets their information from a more heterogenous group of sources, hopefully. As a result, at times people on the right seem to be speaking an entirely different language than other people. Yesterday was one of those times.

The “Fast and Furious” flap building on Capitol Hill is an instance of Republicans in power trying to transfer a phenomenon out of their tightly controlled, information-proof right wing news bubble and manifest it in the real world. Whether the controversy will survive the transition remains to be seen.

The whole mess, however, has its origins in the fevered imaginings of Alabama militiaman Michael Vanderboegh, a blogger and writer of Timothy McVeigh-inspired anti-federal government fiction.

It’s Vanderboegh who cooked up the conspiracy fantasy that “Fast and Furious” is all part of President Barack Obama’s sinister master plan to take away America’s guns.

“Operation Fast and Furious” was a plan begun under the Bush administration that intentionally allowed unauthorized guns to be sold with the intention of following those guns and seeing if they would lead to Mexican drug cartels.

“Whatever you think of that style of law enforcement program, whatever you may think of the George W. Bush administration for beginning it or the Obama administration for continuing it,” said Rachel, “To this militia blogger guy, to the ‘Break their windows, break them NOW’ guy, this got re-imagined as a conspiracy to eliminate the Second Amendment.”

And of course, whenever right wingers think their gun ownership rights may be threatened, they tend to go full-tilt-boogie batshit cuckoo crazy, which is exactly what has happened.

Rachel Maddow explains what the hell ‘Fast and Furious’ is all about | The Raw Story

I knew what fast and the furious was all about when Napolitano, Holder, and Clinton were talking about gun control when they were also talking about Mexicans being killed by gun from America, and then shortly the secret was out. We have a dead border guard and fast and the furious.

 

[BlindBoo]

The SOP of shooting bean bags at the intruders is more to blame than F&F in the agents death.

The number of weapons supplied to the cartels by F&F is a tiny fraction of what they recieve from their contacts within the governments of Central America.

But if all you want to do is hammer away at the President of the United States, have at it. Looks more and more like the boy who cried wolf.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_-UZ4ADjmY]The Muppets - The Boy who cried Wolf - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Rinata]

No...

This has gone viral. Even the party press is forced to cover it.

Obama is toast.

Nice try. You right wingers are trying to make people believe that, but we know it's not true.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Aww, I see. Do you feel that this somehow will make people angry?

No, but it might get a laugh out of those politically astute.

Most people have no idea Soros owns Geico, but a few do. I think a lot more DO realize Soros owns Obama, though.

Because anyone who's not a strong Obama-hater will probably just be confused.

Or, if they do happen to be one of the few outside the bubble to understand the reference, they'll just think it's dumb, and move on.

But, whatever.

Meh.

It was a decent quip.

We are comparing. That was the point of the thread, to make comparisons to other scandals.

It was to make comparison to a specific scandal, though I have no objection to broadening the scope.

First off, these are no comparable. Iran Contra was a unique situation. Jim Wright and the rest of the Soviet 5th column created a situation different than the nation had ever faced. Wright openly worked to establish a Soviet beachhead on the North American Continent.

Further, no one, (save Boo, perhaps) alleges that arming the the anti-Communist insurgents violated any laws. While Wright and many democrats supported the Communists, Reagan found ways to fund the insurgents without using general funds.

Up to that point, there is nothing to complain about, other than that the Communists were not winning - which is Boo's actual complaint. Where it all went awry was in the scheme to use Israeli arms dealers to raise funds. But even in this, there is no sale of arms to criminals, just the sale of spare parts by one foreign nation to another - with the blessing of the executive.

The democrats thought they could Nixon again, but the Republicans had grown a set of balls, small as they were, and it ended up 65 million squandered in the attempt to get Reagan.

And yes, I think it's a scandal. It's a scandal that DoJ bungled an operation of this magnitude in such a spectacular manner.

I'm sure glad the bungled it, the Obama vision of many American deaths is chilling to me.

However, unlike many people posting here, I don't feel the need to assign some sort of motivation for it. They just fucked up royally.

Uh, not exactly.

Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

In the case of Iran/Contra, there was clear motivation, and intent to covertly fund a terrorist/guerilla organization.

The intent was to continue the funding of the insurgency opposing the Soviet puppet regime of Ortega.

Is it "worse than Watergate"?

Again, what we call "Watergate," Obama calls "Tuesday."

Watergate is G rated nonsense in our NC17 world - it's quaint that Watergate ever was a scandal, a scandal for a more innocent time.

If there was motivation and intent to lose the weapons in order to intentionally arm the drug dealers in question, then, yes, it would be.

{ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3".}

Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

But, as it is, it's just incompetence on the part of the ATF.

The ATF is a criminal organization, and this was a criminal act with the full knowledge of Holder, and probably Obama.

 

[Dick Tuck]

go dig Reagan up and impeach him find bush and try him get this shit out of your system because obama is fucking this country up 10 over what any other president has ever done.

Nope, because I don't go by your stupid standard. But by any reasonable standard, I've yet to see a crime committed. I've yet to see anywhere that Obama or Holder approved of the operation. What I did see is that Holder asked for an IG investigation within a month of hearing about it. What I did see was even top level ATF agents were blindsided by it.

So you're insipid logic, that this is worse than Watergate because someone was killed falls flat. Like I've said before, cops can do some pretty damn stupid things, that result in good guys or innocents being killed.

You're too partisan to understand that, since you even tried to pin Ruby Ridge on Clinton. So here, again, is a bit more insight on who knew what and when:

Here's some perspective, from an article published last December:

Angry former ATF chief blames subordinates for Fast and Furious

Found in the article is the fact that Holder ordered the IG investigation within a month of learning about it. Also found in the article is even top ATF officials were unaware of it. Tying this to Holder and Obama is bullshit. Pelosi is right. This is political payback for the DOJ stopping some voter suppression initiatives.

Dude your link is moot since obama use executive privilege. When obama did this he admitted he knew about fast and the furious.

No it's not, since the over 7,000 pages of documentation already provided has the key dates and decisions. What Issa wants is to ball break for internal brain farting memos that might be lying around.

Nope, this is just a case of the GOP wanting to ball break Holder for enforcing voting rights.

 

[Liability]

No...

This has gone viral. Even the party press is forced to cover it.

Obama is toast.

Nice try. You right wingers are trying to make people believe that, but we know it's not true.

The incumbent is the soon to be FORMER President.

Thank GOD.

And yes, it is true that even the press is now being compelled to cover his misbehavior.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Nope, because I don't go by your stupid standard. But by any reasonable standard, I've yet to see a crime committed. I've yet to see anywhere that Obama or Holder approved of the operation. What I did see is that Holder asked for an IG investigation within a month of hearing about it. What I did see was even top level ATF agents were blindsided by it.

So you're insipid logic, that this is worse than Watergate because someone was killed falls flat. Like I've said before, cops can do some pretty damn stupid things, that result in good guys or innocents being killed.

You're too partisan to understand that, since you even tried to pin Ruby Ridge on Clinton. So here, again, is a bit more insight on who knew what and when:

Here's some perspective, from an article published last December:

Angry former ATF chief blames subordinates for Fast and Furious

Found in the article is the fact that Holder ordered the IG investigation within a month of learning about it. Also found in the article is even top ATF officials were unaware of it. Tying this to Holder and Obama is bullshit. Pelosi is right. This is political payback for the DOJ stopping some voter suppression initiatives.

Dude your link is moot since obama use executive privilege. When obama did this he admitted he knew about fast and the furious.

No it's not, since the over 7,000 pages of documentation already provided has the key dates and decisions. What Issa wants is to ball break for internal brain farting memos that might be lying around.

Nope, this is just a case of the GOP wanting to ball break Holder for enforcing voting rights.

It's done obama admitted he knew about fast and the furious when he used the executive privilege. If you're pissed about this be pissed at obama this is his fault.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Well, what did you see in those news sources above that makes you say TP is wrong???

I don't follow links to Stormfront, Al Qaeda sites, or ThinkProgress.

Nothing, that's what!!! I'm sure you didn't even try to find out. You keep criticizing
TP but offer no valid reason why what they say is incorrect.

I don't care what they have to say, they don't fall into the realm of civil discourse. If what they claim has any merit, you can find a legitimate source that says the same thing.

You're a phony and you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground.

Of course, after all - I don't subscribe to hate sites...

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If you really want to know about fast and furious, watch this video. Whether or not you like Rachel Maddow, the woman does her homework and knows what she's talking about. That's why I like her.

Rachel Maddow explains what the hell ‘Fast and Furious’ is all about

On Wednesday night’s edition of “The Rachel Maddow Show,” host Rachel Maddow explained exactly what’s going on with “Fast and Furious,” and why House Republicans voted to hold Attorney General Eric Holder, Jr. in contempt of Congress.

We now live in what Maddow calls a “bifurcated society,” in which conservative Americans get all of their news strictly from conservative sources and everyone else gets their information from a more heterogenous group of sources, hopefully. As a result, at times people on the right seem to be speaking an entirely different language than other people. Yesterday was one of those times.

The “Fast and Furious” flap building on Capitol Hill is an instance of Republicans in power trying to transfer a phenomenon out of their tightly controlled, information-proof right wing news bubble and manifest it in the real world. Whether the controversy will survive the transition remains to be seen.

The whole mess, however, has its origins in the fevered imaginings of Alabama militiaman Michael Vanderboegh, a blogger and writer of Timothy McVeigh-inspired anti-federal government fiction.

It’s Vanderboegh who cooked up the conspiracy fantasy that “Fast and Furious” is all part of President Barack Obama’s sinister master plan to take away America’s guns.

“Operation Fast and Furious” was a plan begun under the Bush administration that intentionally allowed unauthorized guns to be sold with the intention of following those guns and seeing if they would lead to Mexican drug cartels.

“Whatever you think of that style of law enforcement program, whatever you may think of the George W. Bush administration for beginning it or the Obama administration for continuing it,” said Rachel, “To this militia blogger guy, to the ‘Break their windows, break them NOW’ guy, this got re-imagined as a conspiracy to eliminate the Second Amendment.”

And of course, whenever right wingers think their gun ownership rights may be threatened, they tend to go full-tilt-boogie batshit cuckoo crazy, which is exactly what has happened.

Rachel Maddow explains what the hell ‘Fast and Furious’ is all about | The Raw Story

Thanks. If I ever start thinking Maddow is an actual journalist I can look back at this to remind myself that real journalists don't work at MSNBC.

 

[Rinata]

Bullshit. NO ONE GOT KILLED in Watergate.

IDIOT.

That's why I said the Bush admin lying to go to war with Iraq was the worst. Over 4,000 US troops dead because of the scumbag Bush and the GOP shitheads.

Holder & Obama do not get a free pass because Bush did some bad things. They will have to be held accountable. Hundreds of innocents, including an American Border Patrol Agent, have been slaughtered.

You are only pretending to care because you THINK it is an opportunity to bring down Obama and his administration. If you REALLY cared about people, you would want the Bush administration to be accountable for the lost lives from a bogus war. So save the hearts and flowers, you phony.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Nope, because I don't go by your stupid standard. But by any reasonable standard, I've yet to see a crime committed. I've yet to see anywhere that Obama or Holder approved of the operation. What I did see is that Holder asked for an IG investigation within a month of hearing about it. What I did see was even top level ATF agents were blindsided by it.

So you're insipid logic, that this is worse than Watergate because someone was killed falls flat. Like I've said before, cops can do some pretty damn stupid things, that result in good guys or innocents being killed.

You're too partisan to understand that, since you even tried to pin Ruby Ridge on Clinton. So here, again, is a bit more insight on who knew what and when:

Here's some perspective, from an article published last December:

Angry former ATF chief blames subordinates for Fast and Furious

Found in the article is the fact that Holder ordered the IG investigation within a month of learning about it. Also found in the article is even top ATF officials were unaware of it. Tying this to Holder and Obama is bullshit. Pelosi is right. This is political payback for the DOJ stopping some voter suppression initiatives.

Dude your link is moot since obama use executive privilege. When obama did this he admitted he knew about fast and the furious.

No it's not, since the over 7,000 pages of documentation already provided has the key dates and decisions. What Issa wants is to ball break for internal brain farting memos that might be lying around.

Nope, this is just a case of the GOP wanting to ball break Holder for enforcing voting rights.

You think 7000 pages is a lot of paperwork, don't you? It takes about 7000 pages for the government to give themselves permission to blow their noses.

 

[BlindBoo]

Condone, rationalize, make excuses for.

Not much different when you claim that agent would be dead regardless what the Administration did.

And then you try to trivialize this by comparing FF to normal arms sales to foreign governments.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you attempt to do that?

The SOP of shooting bean bags at the intruders is more to blame than F&F in the agents death.

The number of weapons supplied to the cartels by F&F is a tiny fraction of what they recieve from their contacts within the governments of Central America.

But if all you want to do is hammer away at the President of the United States, have at it. Looks more and more like the boy who cried wolf.

So you are condoning it.

Let me ask you a question; What do you think a drug-runner will do to a Mexican Police vehicle if he has a 50 cal sniper rifle?

Ever see Robocop?
Ever see Black Hawk Down?
Ever see what those guns can do first hand?

I have.

The Obama Administration put them in the hands of criminals hoping for a massive body-count.

I don't subscribe to the nutty NRA conspiricy theory.

 

[Rinata]

This has gone viral. Even the party press is forced to cover it.

Obama is toast.

Nice try. You right wingers are trying to make people believe that, but we know it's not true.

The incumbent is the soon to be FORMER President.

Thank GOD.

And yes, it is true that even the press is now being compelled to cover his misbehavior.

It's useless to argue about it. But you would do better wishing to be 21 again.

 

[Si modo]

The SOP of shooting bean bags at the intruders is more to blame than F&F in the agents death.

The number of weapons supplied to the cartels by F&F is a tiny fraction of what they recieve from their contacts within the governments of Central America.

But if all you want to do is hammer away at the President of the United States, have at it. Looks more and more like the boy who cried wolf.

So you are condoning it.

Let me ask you a question; What do you think a drug-runner will do to a Mexican Police vehicle if he has a 50 cal sniper rifle?

Ever see Robocop?
Ever see Black Hawk Down?
Ever see what those guns can do first hand?

I have.

The Obama Administration put them in the hands of criminals hoping for a massive body-count.

I don't subscribe to the nutty NRA conspiricy theory.

It's more the administration's theory.

 

[Rinata]

Well, what did you see in those news sources above that makes you say TP is wrong???

I don't follow links to Stormfront, Al Qaeda sites, or ThinkProgress.

Nothing, that's what!!! I'm sure you didn't even try to find out. You keep criticizing
TP but offer no valid reason why what they say is incorrect.

I don't care what they have to say, they don't fall into the realm of civil discourse. If what they claim has any merit, you can find a legitimate source that says the same thing.

You're a phony and you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground.

Of course, after all - I don't subscribe to hate sites...

Yeah, okay. Whatever you do, don't try to learn anything or use your comprehension skills. Just believe Fox News. Then you can just watch game shows and read comic books.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Nice try. You right wingers are trying to make people believe that, but we know it's not true.

Rinata, you're not rational - there, the cat is out of the bag.

You're a blind partisan who holds your shameful party above all else. There is NOTHING that would cause you criticize Obama - absolutely nothing.

So you blabbering that Obama is god and every good little boi and gurl loves him really means nothing at all.

The fact is that Obama was in a statistical dead heat with Romney before this blew up. This is June on the verge of July - it is not going to blow over. Even if only 5% are outraged by the contempt for the law and the constitution shown by Holder and Obama, the election is over, Obama is out.

Again, you don't grasp this because you're a mindless sycophant spouting worship of your little tin god - but reality is not kind to Obama. Further, I think under the Romney administration, Holder could very well face criminal prosecution. Holder, not Obama.

 

[bigrebnc1775]