Does God Exist?

[Meriweather]

Nope. Early Christian texts were required to be apostolic if they were to be taken seriously. The result, hardly surprising, is that anyone who had a theology they wanted other Christians to read and follow, would write in the name of an apostle. Hence a forgery. At least some of these forgeries made it into the Christian canon. Also, there are some chapters added to the original Gospels to reinforce a theology.

Interesting take, but it is not correct. What you are describing may be some of the Gnostic writings which were warned against and not adopted as Canon as they were not the teachings of the Apostles. John (and the community responsible for the Gospel of John) did have an eye witness. Mark was not only a eye witness (part of the time) most of what he wrote he heard from Peter. And so on.

By the way, there are some today that feel that the Church was unfair by not including the Gnostic gospels!

 

[Meriweather]

Since I am not a believer, it sounds like I'll be judged. What will that judgement be based on and will I have a shot at heaven?

According to Paul (in Romans) because you are not a believer, you will be judged by your own heart.

 

[alang1216]

Nope. Early Christian texts were required to be apostolic if they were to be taken seriously. The result, hardly surprising, is that anyone who had a theology they wanted other Christians to read and follow, would write in the name of an apostle. Hence a forgery. At least some of these forgeries made it into the Christian canon. Also, there are some chapters added to the original Gospels to reinforce a theology.

Interesting take, but it is not correct. What you are describing may be some of the Gnostic writings which were warned against and not adopted as Canon as they were not the teachings of the Apostles. John (and the community responsible for the Gospel of John) did have an eye witness. Mark was not only a eye witness (part of the time) most of what he wrote he heard from Peter. And so on.

By the way, there are some today that feel that the Church was unfair by not including the Gnostic gospels!

Sorry but history and biblical scholars would disagree. A number of Paul's letters are recognized as forged. The Gospels were written anonymously and only later give 'authors' names. The Gospel of John did not have an eyewitness, that claim was a later invention.

It has always amazed me that Christians know so little about their own scripture.

 

[The Irish Ram]

1. Based on sin.
2. The Bible doesn't mention any reprieves from the second death.
And yet, Christ paid your debt even though you chose to dismiss His willingness to die in your place. And He is the kindest creature of all. He will be the judge in your case. You'll recognize Him by His white hair, deformed face, and scarred hands. Did you know that He wasn't recognizable as human by the time He finally made it to the cross. You'll cry when you see Him...

 

[Hollie]

There are themes and then there are Themes. One of the earliest Themes in the Bible deals with punishment. That Theme is echoed through the Bible, through Christianity and through all of humanity, according the Christianity. The Gods put forth a test to only two humans without (at least in terms of the Judeo-Christian god) giving them either the ability to make a considered choice nor did he bother to tell them the consequences would extend to every person born after them.

A punishment for all humanity, for all time. That's quite a Theme.

I understand the perspective you presented may follow the way some others think as well--but by no means is it the perspective of all--or even the majority. I tend to agree with the Jewish perspective has always been God's word is meant to help us through this life--it is not about punishment.

From your perspective, if you came across a sign that said, "Danger--Quicksand" and you paid no attention, the person who put up the sign you simply regard as an old meanie who punished you when you got sucked in by the quicksand. After all, the person who noticed the quicksand should have cleaned it all up!

What some consider unfair and undue punishment, others merely see as a consequence of what happens when one chooses a certain type of behavior.

There are themes and then there are Themes. One of the earliest Themes in the Bible deals with punishment. That Theme is echoed through the Bible, through Christianity and through all of humanity, according the Christianity. The Gods put forth a test to only two humans without (at least in terms of the Judeo-Christian god) giving them either the ability to make a considered choice nor did he bother to tell them the consequences would extend to every person born after them.

A punishment for all humanity, for all time. That's quite a Theme.

I understand the perspective you presented may follow the way some others think as well--but by no means is it the perspective of all--or even the majority. I tend to agree with the Jewish perspective has always been God's word is meant to help us through this life--it is not about punishment.

From your perspective, if you came across a sign that said, "Danger--Quicksand" and you paid no attention, the person who put up the sign you simply regard as an old meanie who punished you when you got sucked in by the quicksand. After all, the person who noticed the quicksand should have cleaned it all up!

What some consider unfair and undue punishment, others merely see as a consequence of what happens when one chooses a certain type of behavior.

The "Danger--Quicksand" analogy just doesn't work. Seeing such a sign would not tell me that there is something supernatural ahead. The person posting such a sign is advising of danger. If I continue and sink, that is a result of not taking heed. There is no reason to believe that any supernatural Gods are going to mete out rewards or punishment for my choices. Do you have any evidence to suggest they will?

Otherwise, you’ve nicely outlined one of the inescapable mental leveraging's of religious belief: the notion of some ultimate justice and ultimate reward or punishment. It's not pleasant to think there's no "ultimate justice" out there. It’s seems grossly unfair to realize that a dead Hitler is pretty much beyond suffering for his cruelties. Any crime I commit in this realm is only applicable in this realm. It's the truth. And we need the truth to function properly, to explore, and learn.

It is precisely the seductive nature of texts written by humans who create Gods with human attributes and which texts make promises that appeal to human emotions that should compel a reasonable person to be skeptical of those claims. I would love for my dead friends and relatives to be alive again. I would love to live a lot longer than the handful of decades my DNA is clocking out for me. But the truth matters and there's no discernable truth to supernatural realms and angry Gods'

 

[Hollie]

1. Based on sin.
2. The Bible doesn't mention any reprieves from the second death.
And yet, Christ paid your debt even though you chose to dismiss His willingness to die in your place. And He is the kindest creature of all. He will be the judge in your case. You'll recognize Him by His white hair, deformed face, and scarred hands. Did you know that He wasn't recognizable as human by the time He finally made it to the cross. You'll cry when you see Him...

If Jesus paid my debt, I'll write him a check to pay my way.

Otherwise, I'll know him when I see him, I'll look for the Jesus that westerners created in their own image, you know, the tall, fair-haired, fair skinned, blue-eyed white guy.

 

[alang1216]

1. Based on sin.
2. The Bible doesn't mention any reprieves from the second death.
And yet, Christ paid your debt even though you chose to dismiss His willingness to die in your place. And He is the kindest creature of all. He will be the judge in your case. You'll recognize Him by His white hair, deformed face, and scarred hands. Did you know that He wasn't recognizable as human by the time He finally made it to the cross. You'll cry when you see Himc...

I don't know about the crying part but I hope I get to ask why he established a 'debt' that he then had to pay back to himself?

 

[Meriweather]

There is no reason to believe that any supernatural Gods are going to mete out rewards or punishment for my choices.

What I would like you to understand is the Jewish philosophy that what is written in the Old Testament is meant to help and guide one through this life--not a test for rewards and punishments in the next.

 

[Meriweather]

I don't know about the crying part but I hope I get to ask why he established a 'debt' that he then had to pay back to himself?

He didn't. Blood does not pay off a debt. Blood establishes a Covenant. In this case, repentance for the forgiveness of sins. The good news of the Lord...

 

[ding]

Mr james bond knows my fate. You're awake but are you woke?

Why not? Who do you believe is correct? Me? Or him?

Neither really. You both believe in heaven and hell.

You need to believe in heaven and hell to believe you don’t know what your fate or the fate of others is?

What will I be eating tonight for dinner? When will I die? How will I die?

You don’t know your fate. You don’t know anyone’s fate.

Want to change your answer now?

 

[alang1216]

Mr james bond knows my fate. You're awake but are you woke?

Why not? Who do you believe is correct? Me? Or him?

Neither really. You both believe in heaven and hell.

You need to believe in heaven and hell to believe you don’t know what your fate or the fate of others is?

What will I be eating tonight for dinner? When will I die? How will I die?

You don’t know your fate. You don’t know anyone’s fate.

Want to change your answer now?

Do you believe God knows my fate? Would it be unreasonable to expect that if I follow the rules of my faith I'll get the reward that is promised me? If you took a poll and believers answered honestly, not 'humbly', I'd be a majority think they're a shoe in for the Good Place.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Humble?

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need

.

 

[alang1216]

Humble?

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need

.

Would you prefer politically correct? Have you found that grace? Do you know that you are going to heaven?

 

[james bond]

I don't know about the crying part but I hope I get to ask why he established a 'debt' that he then had to pay back to himself?

Not a debt to pay back to himself, but to get back heaven for his followers by paying in blood sacrifice.

Adam disobeyed the one rule that God had for humans because they were given free will. What if I killed all your family, friends, but left you bruised and battered and alive so you could suffer. Then the guilty, me, would have a debt to pay society for my crimes. Furthermore, what happened with Adam is he had to give up his domain of the world to Satan. In my case, I tortured your father and mother before death so they would leave me all their property as sole heir and cut you out. God could not just leave heaven to Satan as he becomes like God, so as punishment Adam brought death, disease, and famine to the world. In your case, I brought pain and suffering to your life and me profit as the sole heir. Thus, anthropomorphic God the Father said he will sacrifice his only Son Jesus as a perfect human in order to pay the debt of sin to society. In our hypothetical case, the only thing you have left is to try and kill me as the liberal laws have set me free with little punishment.

 

[alang1216]

I don't know about the crying part but I hope I get to ask why he established a 'debt' that he then had to pay back to himself?

Not a debt to pay back to himself, but to get back heaven for his followers by paying in blood sacrifice.

Adam disobeyed the one rule that God had for humans because they were given free will. What if I killed all your family, friends, but left you bruised and battered and alive so you could suffer. Then the guilty, me, would have a debt to pay society for my crimes. Furthermore, what happened with Adam is he had to give up his domain of the world to Satan. In my case, I tortured your father and mother before death so they would leave me all their property as sole heir and cut you out. God could not just leave heaven to Satan as he becomes like God, so as punishment Adam brought death, disease, and famine to the world. In your case, I brought pain and suffering to your life and me profit as the sole heir. Thus, anthropomorphic God the Father said he will sacrifice his only Son Jesus as a perfect human in order to pay the debt of sin to society. In our hypothetical case, the only thing you have left is to try and kill me as the liberal laws have set me free with little punishment.

I had a bit of trouble following you. Adam sinned. So what is that to me? Am I guilty of sin too? You killed and maimed and have a debt to society. OK but do I also now have a debt to pay? I'm confused. Anyway, since God can do anything and is the ultimate judge, he can cancel any debts can't he? Especially since they are owed to him.

 

[james bond]

I had a bit of trouble following you. Adam sinned. So what is that to me? Am I guilty of sin too? You killed and maimed and have a debt to society. OK but do I also now have a debt to pay? I'm confused. Anyway, since God can do anything and is the ultimate judge, he can cancel any debts can't he? Especially since they are owed to him.

Adam sinned and his sin changed the world. Instead of heaven, it became death Earth, for lack of a better term, where he and Eve's descendants became flesh and blood creatures. That is the result of his sin. You and I are all sinners from Adam's sin and we have to die. Death is punishment for having Adam's sin. Instead of permanent flesh and bone, we became of non-permanent flesh and blood. The evidence for this is -- don't we all die of blood disease if you live to old age -- heart attack and disease, cancer, or stroke? This is the debt we have to pay for the original sin that we bear.

No, God couldn't just cancel the sin because Satan has dominion over the Earth now. He and his demons live in the middle heaven or in our middle atmosphere just above the sky. Satan is now "god of the world and prince of the power of the air."

Follow me here. If we die without Jesus paying our ransom, then Satan will have possession of all the souls. The thinking is that there will be some kind of extinction event on Earth. Thus, if God did not come up with a way for our salvation, then all of us and our souls will belong to Satan and we end up in the Lake of Fire.

 

[ding]

Mr james bond knows my fate. You're awake but are you woke?

Why not? Who do you believe is correct? Me? Or him?

Neither really. You both believe in heaven and hell.

You need to believe in heaven and hell to believe you don’t know what your fate or the fate of others is?

What will I be eating tonight for dinner? When will I die? How will I die?

You don’t know your fate. You don’t know anyone’s fate.

Want to change your answer now?

Do you believe God knows my fate? Would it be unreasonable to expect that if I follow the rules of my faith I'll get the reward that is promised me? If you took a poll and believers answered honestly, not 'humbly', I'd be a majority think they're a shoe in for the Good Place.

What exactly do you believe God promised you anyway?

Now I realize you don’t believe God promised you anything. We both know that. So why would you construct a belief based upon a religious text you don’t believe? Why wouldn’t you say hey from what I can observe from how my life works here is what it seems I was “promised.”

I am curious to see if you can see anything you think you were promised through examination of the natural order and your experiences.

 

[ding]

Mr james bond knows my fate. You're awake but are you woke?

Why not? Who do you believe is correct? Me? Or him?

Neither really. You both believe in heaven and hell.

You need to believe in heaven and hell to believe you don’t know what your fate or the fate of others is?

What will I be eating tonight for dinner? When will I die? How will I die?

You don’t know your fate. You don’t know anyone’s fate.

Want to change your answer now?

Do you believe God knows my fate? Would it be unreasonable to expect that if I follow the rules of my faith I'll get the reward that is promised me? If you took a poll and believers answered honestly, not 'humbly', I'd be a majority think they're a shoe in for the Good Place.

BTW, yes it would be unreasonable because you are conflating religion with God.

 

[The Irish Ram]

since God can do anything and is the ultimate judge, he can cancel any debts can't he? Especially since they are owed to him.

He DID cancel your debt! On a cross. At great expense.
God is required to be 100% just, as in Justice, as in Judge. And 100% merciful, as in loving Father, at the same time.
The pharisees pulled the same thing on Jesus with a woman that, by law, should have been stoned to death. Would Jesus be merciful and disobey the Law, or would he obey the Law and not show mercy to the woman? He did both. He held up the Law and told the Priests, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." And He was merciful to her by her going unharmed.
Same with God.
Justice demands that the punishment for sin is death. Not the first death, < thanks to Adam, but the second death. < The eternal one. God was 100% just to make sure that sin was paid for by death. Not ours, but His. Legal requirment fulfilled. And in doing so, God is 100% merciful to His children by raising us from the dead and putting our sin (what separates us from our Father) behind Him for good.

One of the last words uttered by Christ was, "Tetelestai." They used to stamp that word on a debt that was paid.
It means finished or "Paid in full." All you have to do is accept it.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Humble?

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need

.

Would you prefer politically correct? Have you found that grace? Do you know that you are going to heaven?

Yep. His grace is sufficient. And yes, I do know that I am going to Heaven. If I am not, then God is a liar. And He is not. I am covered by the blood Christ shed on the cross.