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View attachment 925357
What gives a person in a coma, brain dead, or a serious case of Alzheimer's rights?
Should we limit when a person has rights to their IQ?
SMILE
It's al mine.Well thought out. Who wrote this? Link?
You will sunset the Republican Party over a few pennies of your tax payments going to assistance with an abortion.government cuts on the financial side of this issue.
If a government beholds a policy of prohibiting abortions and thus increase the birthrate - it needs to ensure the financial matters of mothers and/or parents having multiple children. - very simple.
Charities and go-fund-me's are not the responsibility of the government - they factually use these, to push away their own responsibility.That's what charities and go-fund-me's are for.
Your social-payment contributions are far less effected via an abortion, then by supporting state-sponsored birth-rates.Don't force me to pay for an elective surgery at the point of a government sword.
As in any Western country - it's those "migrants" that take on those shitty and low paid jobs. Independent of a countries respective birthrate policy. (that beholds the responsibility to raise an EDUCATED and QUALIFIED population) And not to just simply throw money at the lowlifes - who hump all day long anyway, ain't willing or educated enough to know about BIRTH-CONTROL, and don't bother to raise their children properly.As for overpopulation the progressive liberals around here always say we need more to fill jobs so they keep the southern border open so obviously we shouldn't be aborting our potential labor force.
An abortion after week 8 = murder of an unborn child.So long as it's completely funded without tax dollars she has the freedom to murder her unborn child.
You know our position is that a fetus is not a child. We've told you that many times. You can't plead ignorance.Again... What you guys are really arguing for is that the child
Your party openly and enthusiastically demands a full national abortion ban.Yes, each state gets to decide.
That's just an opinion, a purely subjective one. The fact that a textbook somewhere repeats it doesn't make it any less subjective.I have no argument. I only have facts.
- At conception a new genetically distinct human being has come into existence.
If a government beholds a policy of prohibiting abortions and thus increase the birthrate - it needs to ensure the financial matters of mothers and/or parents having multiple children. - very simple.
Charities and go-fund-me's are not the responsibility of the government - they factually use these, to push away their own responsibility.
Your social-payment contributions are far less effected via an abortion, then by supporting state-sponsored birth-rates.
A such (according to your mindset) you should be in full support of abortions.
As in any Western country - it's those "migrants" that take on those shitty and low paid jobs. Independent of a countries respective birthrate policy. (that beholds the responsibility to raise an EDUCATED and QUALIFIED population) And not to just simply throw money at the lowlifes - who hump all day long anyway, ain't willing or educated enough to know about BIRTH-CONTROL, and don't bother to raise their children properly.
My bad. Property to be disposed of. Better?You know our position is that a fetus is not a child. We've told you that many times. You can't plead ignorance.
So why do you keep deliberately lying about our position?
If you can't argue against what we actually say, just admit it. It's not like you're fooling anyone with the strawmen.
Sure, I would have made it a misdemeanor.Your party openly and enthusiastically demands a full national abortion ban.
Are the Republicans wrong for doing that?
That's just an opinion, a purely subjective one. The fact that a textbook somewhere repeats it doesn't make it any less subjective.
It's also rank historical revisionism, a very new fiction dreamed up by the pro-life side. It's an attempt by pro-lifers to define themselves as correct. Humanity over most of its history knew nothing about genetics, but we still knew exactly what a pseron was. That proves personhood has zilch to do with genetics.
PETA claims cows are people, and makes up a definition that supports the claim. That's what pro-lifers basically did.
Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003. pp. 16, 2.“Human life begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoo developmentn) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.” “A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo).”
Kaluger, G., and Kaluger, M., Human Development: The Span of Life, page 28-29, The C.V. Mosby Co., St. Louis, 1974.“In that fraction of a second when the chromosomes form pairs, the sex of the new child will be determined, hereditary characteristics received from each parent will be set, and a new life will have begun.”
F Beck Human Embryology, Blackwell Scientific Publications, 1985 page vi“It should always be remembered that many organs are still not completely developed by full-term and birth should be regarded only as an incident in the whole developmental process.”
Clark Edward and Corliss Patten’s Human Embryology, McGraw – Hill Inc., 30“It is the penetration of the ovum by a sperm and the resulting mingling of nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the initiation of the life of a new individual.”
The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology fifth edition, Moore and Persaud, 1993, Saunders Company, page 1“Although it is customary to divide human development into prenatal and postnatal periods, it is important to realize that birth is merely a dramatic event during development resulting in a change in environment.”
Keith L. Moore & T.V.N. Persaud Before We Are Born – Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects (W.B. Saunders Company, 1998. Fifth edition.) Page 500“The zygote and early embryo are living human organisms.”
J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Freidman. Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Publishers. 1974 Pages 17 and 23.“The term conception refers to the union of the male and female pronuclear elements of procreation from which a new living being develops. It is synonymous with the terms fecundation, impregnation, and fertilization … The zygote thus formed represents the beginning of a new life.”
Keith L. Moore, Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2008. p. 2.“[The zygote], formed by the union of an oocyte and a sperm, is the beginning of a new human being.”
Ronan O’Rahilly and Fabiola Miller, Human Embryology and Teratology, 3rd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 2001. p. 8.“Although life is a continuous process, fertilization… is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new genetically distinct human organism is formed when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte.”
Dr. Morris Krieger “The Human Reproductive System” p 88 (1969) Sterling Pub. Co“[All] organisms, however large and complex they might be as full grown, begin life as a single cell. This is true for the human being, for instance, who begins life as a fertilized ovum.”
James Bopp, ed., Human Life and Health Care Ethics, vol. 2 (Frederick, MD: University Publications of America, 1985)“The first cell of a new and unique human life begins existence at the moment of conception (fertilization) when one living sperm from the father joins with one living ovum from the mother. It is in this manner that human life passes from one generation to another. Given the appropriate environment and genetic composition, the single cell subsequently gives rise to trillions of specialized and integrated cells that compose the structures and functions of each individual human body. Every human being alive today and, as far as is known scientifically, every human being that ever existed, began his or her unique existence in this manner, i.e., as one cell. If this first cell or any subsequent configuration of cells perishes, the individual dies, ceasing to exist in matter as a living being. There are no known exceptions to this rule in the field of human biology.”
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Leslie Brainerd Arey, “Developmental Anatomy” seventh edition space (Philadelphia: Saunders, 1974), 55“The formation, maturation and meeting of a male and female sex cell are all preliminary to their actual union into a combined cell, or zygote, which definitely marks the beginning of a new individual. The penetration of the ovum by the spermatozoon, and the coming together and pooling of their respective nuclei, constitutes the process of fertilization.”
DeCoursey, R.M., The Human Organism, 4th edition McGraw Hill Inc., Toronto, 1974. page 584“The zygote therefore contains a new arrangement of genes on the chromosomes never before duplicated in any other individual. The offspring destined to develop from the fertilized ovum will have a genetic constitution different from anyone else in the world.”
Thibodeau, G.A., and Anthony, C.P., Structure and Function of the Body, 8th edition, St. Louis: Times Mirror/Mosby College Publishers, St. Louis, 1988. pages 409-419“The science of the development of the individual before birth is called embryology. It is the story of miracles, describing the means by which a single microscopic cell is transformed into a complex human being. Genetically the zygote is complete. It represents a new single celled individual.”
Clark, J. ed., The Nervous System: Circuits of Communication in the Human Body, Torstar Books Inc., Toronto, 1985, page 99“Each human begins life as a combination of two cells, a female ovum and a much smaller male sperm. This tiny unit, no bigger than a period on this page, contains all the information needed to enable it to grow into the complex …structure of the human body. The mother has only to provide nutrition and protection.”
Turner, J.S., and Helms, D.B., Lifespan Developmental, 2nd ed., CBS College Publishing (Holt, Rhinehart, Winston), 1983, page 53“A zygote (a single fertilized egg cell) represents the onset of pregnancy and the genesis of new life.”
Carlson, Bruce M. Patten’s Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3“Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)… The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual.”
Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand’s Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943“Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism…. At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun…. The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life.”
Kaluger, G., and Kaluger, M., Human Development: The Span of Life, page 28-29, The C.V. Mosby Co., St. Louis, 1974“In that fraction of a second when the chromosomes form pairs, [at conception] the sex of the new child will be determined, hereditary characteristics received from each parent will be set, and a new life will have begun.”
Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3“The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.”
Human Embryology, 3rd ed. Bradley M. Patten, (New York: McGraw Hill, 1968), 43.“It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoan and resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual.”
Essentials of Human Embryology, William J. Larsen, (New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1998), 1-17.“In this text, we begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual. … Fertilization takes place in the oviduct … resulting in the formation of a zygote containing a single diploid nucleus. Embryonic development is considered to begin at this point… This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development.”
From Human Embryology & Teratology, Ronan R. O’Rahilly, Fabiola Muller, (New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996), 5-55.“Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed… Fertilization is the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments… The zygote … is a unicellular embryo..”
The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed. Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18:“[The Zygote] results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm … unites with a female gamete or oocyte … to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.”
I never go your route at least at first. I would see what did the first feminist doctors say about abortion, for exampleThe recent ruling by an Alabama judge has ignited a firestorm in both sides of the reproductive rights community: frozen embryos have full legal personhood rights. This has split Republican lawmakers who are, on the one hand applauding the decision while simultaneously scrambling to enact legislation to carve out a niche for IVF by redefining when an embryo is considered a person.
Florida proposed an amendment to a legislative bill being considered:Republican lawmakers in Florida had proposed an amendment to the bill, the same week as the Alabama ruling, to define “unborn child” as a human “at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb.” The change would likely protect IVF patients and doctors, but it remains uncertain whether it would be in any final version the full Legislature were to vote on.
That raises questions too.
The issue of abortion is one of competing rights: weighing a woman’s right to bodily autonomy against a fetus’ right to life. But with frozen embryos, there are no competing rights.
So what exactly does this mean?
- With abortion does ”full personhood” mean that unless a woman is at death’s door, she cannot act to save her life?
- Does it mean every miscarriage is a potential crime scene?
- Will embryos be claimed as dependents on taxes? Will they get child support?
- Will they even be US citizens? Isn’t birth/born a stipulation there?
With frozen embryos it is even more tricky:
How can you ethically have a “carve out” for IVF embryos but not implanted embryos?
- How can an embryo, implanted in a uterus be given “personhood” rights while an identical embryo, that is frozen, not be?
- Will fathers of frozen embryos be liable for child support for each one?
- If they must remain stored into perpetuity…who pays?
- Can you claim them as dependents?
- If something happens that accidently destroys hundreds of stored embryos…should the person responsible face hundreds of counts of homicide charges?
Note: I put this in CDZ to hopefully have a real discussion as this latest ruling moves the debate beyond abortion.
Do you know what the death penalty is?Show me any constitution or law in the USA or any Western democratic country - which supposedly allows a State to murder.
Some posters are useless, without their strawmen.So why do you keep deliberately lying about our position?
When the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted in 1868, the states widely recognized unborn children as persons. Twenty-three states and six territories referred to the fetus as a “child” in their laws prohibiting abortion. Twenty-eight classified abortion as an “offense against the person,” or a functionally equivalent classification. These statutes were enacted in recognition of unborn human beings’ full and equal membership in the human family. In Ohio, the same legislature that ratified the Fourteenth Amendment in January 1867 passed legislation criminalizing abortion at all stages just three months later. Several senators who voted for the Fourteenth Amendment’s ratification sat on the committee that reviewed the anti-abortion bill. They acknowledged in their report that “physicians have now arrived at the unanimous opinion that the foetus in utero is alive from the very moment of conception,” and declared on that basis that abortion “at any stage of existence” is “child-murder.” In light of the historical evidence, there can be little doubt that the original public meaning of the term “person” in 1868 included unborn children.The recent ruling by an Alabama judge has ignited a firestorm in both sides of the reproductive rights community: frozen embryos have full legal personhood rights. This has split Republican lawmakers who are, on the one hand applauding the decision while simultaneously scrambling to enact legislation to carve out a niche for IVF by redefining when an embryo is considered a person.
Florida proposed an amendment to a legislative bill being considered:Republican lawmakers in Florida had proposed an amendment to the bill, the same week as the Alabama ruling, to define “unborn child” as a human “at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb.” The change would likely protect IVF patients and doctors, but it remains uncertain whether it would be in any final version the full Legislature were to vote on.
That raises questions too.
The issue of abortion is one of competing rights: weighing a woman’s right to bodily autonomy against a fetus’ right to life. But with frozen embryos, there are no competing rights.
So what exactly does this mean?
- With abortion does ”full personhood” mean that unless a woman is at death’s door, she cannot act to save her life?
- Does it mean every miscarriage is a potential crime scene?
- Will embryos be claimed as dependents on taxes? Will they get child support?
- Will they even be US citizens? Isn’t birth/born a stipulation there?
With frozen embryos it is even more tricky:
How can you ethically have a “carve out” for IVF embryos but not implanted embryos?
- How can an embryo, implanted in a uterus be given “personhood” rights while an identical embryo, that is frozen, not be?
- Will fathers of frozen embryos be liable for child support for each one?
- If they must remain stored into perpetuity…who pays?
- Can you claim them as dependents?
- If something happens that accidently destroys hundreds of stored embryos…should the person responsible face hundreds of counts of homicide charges?
Note: I put this in CDZ to hopefully have a real discussion as this latest ruling moves the debate beyond abortion.
Why would you see what women doctors over a century ago had to say about? Would you also check on their other views surrounding reproductive care or is this selective?I never go your route at least at first. I would see what did the first feminist doctors say about abortion, for example
AND THEY DESPISED AND HATED IT
www.pbs.org
Fetal viability is a misnomer as the newborn baby is no more 'viable', i.e. capable of surviving, without total care and nurturing for two years or more after birth. That developing baby in the womb is a human being at a stage just as necessary for the 'viable' person as is a newborn baby. Not a single one of us living now did not go through all the stages of development from egg fertilization to emerging from the womb to now.Jitts 190908 {post•419}
Embryos and Personhood 240401 {post•322}
Every woman who discovers she is pregnant should know that the maternal mortality rate applies to them. It is not zero. And most deaths and complications occur during delivery.
The time to assume the risk of delivering a new baby to the world is prior to fetal viability at about 22 to 23 weeks.
There is risk of death with every pregnancy so to answer your question Saint Damagedeagle every single potential mothers lives are threatened by pregnancy.
The government of Alabama cannot guarantee zero risk of death or bodily harm to any woman after 20 weeks of pregnancy when risk of miscarriage has passed, so why do you think it proper for Alabama to force full full term gestation on women just because a white Christian nationalist political majority holds power in the state?
nfbw 240401 Veapyz00322
