Equality, Fairness, and Other Utopian Myths

[Agit8r]

Can you condense this version?

It is the same straw-man argument as usual.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Can you condense this version?

It is the same straw-man argument as usual.

And the same fail as usual.

 

[Boss]

And the same fail as usual.

Wow... and here I was expecting all the liberals to be in total agreement with me! I'm truly shocked by these responses!! LMFAO!

 

[NYcarbineer]

Leave it to conservatives to take equality from being a self-evident truth in the Declaration of Independence to a myth in Conservatopia.

 

[Boss]

Leave it to conservatives to take equality from being a self-evident truth in the Declaration of Independence to a myth in Conservatopia.

I thought the DoI had no legal bearing? That's what liberals usually say when we're talking about our nation being founded on the notion of all men being endowed by their Creator.

Of course with Liberals, these things change daily. Depends on what you need to promote the agenda message of the day.

All men are created equal and endowed inalienable rights by their Creator. Conservatives stand for that. My OP does not dispute that or criticize it in any way.

 

[Clementine]

Can you condense this version?

The OP forgot that we are not all equal when it comes to reading ability. The short version is that the liberal utopia is bullshit and the only people who would be truly happy are the tyrants in control.

Life is unfair. If you're stupid, it's really unfair.

Equal opportunity is real. Equal outcomes would only come about by government force and that would require lowering standards, taking away freedom and liberty and dictating our every move. Personal responsibility is the key, not government continually manipulating things to create the illusion that we are all the same.

Boss, that was a well-written post and spot on! I had a feeling the length would scare off certain posters. You knew you'd get hit and run talking point posts.

 

[Kosh]

The far left philosophy is that if it does not work just throw more money at the problem.

 

[AvgGuyIA]

Personally, I'm of the belief that when the revolution comes, we hang the bankers first.

 

[Boss]

Personally, I'm of the belief that when the revolution comes, we hang the bankers first.

See.... I don't get this. What is the problem with bankers? They are capitalists like all other capitalists. In business to make money, their business just happens to be money. Are there crooked bankers? Sure... just as there are crooked pipe fitters and waitresses. Corrupted people come in all shapes and sizes.

The Marxist Left likes to demonize bankers, CEOs, millionaires, business tycoons, or anyone else they can work themselves into a froth over this jealousy regarding their wealth. About the only group they won't go after are the liberal Hollywood elite... they say not a single bad word about Oprah or Jon Stewart. Apparently, entertainment is the only "noble" capitalist enterprise for the Utopian Libs... (unless, of course, the entertainer is a Republican.)

 

[Dragonlady]

As usual, the OPoster completely misrepresents what the liberal agenda is all about.

Equality of education doesn't mean everybody gets the same education, but rather equal access to quality education. The US currently spends less money educating the children of the poor than the children of the rich. Schools in poor areas have more children per class, fewer resources like textbooks, computers, etc.

Wage equality doesn't mean everyone gets the same wages. It means that wages rise at the same rate. CEO's used to make 10 times what their workers make. Now it's 270 times what their workers make, while their workers have had no real increase in their wages since Reagan was in office. The tide needs to raise all boats, not just the yachts.

And the guy in the biggest house always pays more in taxes than the guy in the shanty. It's the basis of the property tax system.

 

[Boss]

As usual, the OPoster completely misrepresents what the liberal agenda is all about.

Equality of education doesn't mean everybody gets the same education, but rather equal access to quality education. The US currently spends less money educating the children of the poor than the children of the rich. Schools in poor areas have more children per class, fewer resources like textbooks, computers, etc.

This is incorrect. The US pays more per student to educate the poor. Most wealthy people privately educate their children. Resources may vary from state to state but that is because education is operated at the state level.

And again, money has nothing to do with education. My parents walked 5 miles to school each day and had to share textbooks. There were no computers. There was no school tax. They became educated because their parents instilled value on education.

Wage equality doesn't mean everyone gets the same wages. It means that wages rise at the same rate. CEO's used to make 10 times what their workers make. Now it's 270 times what their workers make, while their workers have had no real increase in their wages since Reagan was in office. The tide needs to raise all boats, not just the yachts.

And the guy in the biggest house always pays more in taxes than the guy in the shanty. It's the basis of the property tax system.

I am uncomfortable with the term "workers" here. We do not live in a Communist country. People who are "workers" have the freedom to become CEOs if they don't like being "workers" and many do. They also have the freedom to find a better paying job or negotiating a higher rate of pay. Different jobs have differing rates of pay because of supply and demand. Capitalists pay CEOs based on the value they bring to the capitalist. If capitalists could make more profit paying CEOs less, that's what the capitalists would do.

"No real increase in wages since Reagan" is a very good example of how propaganda works. Statistics are manipulated to make it appear the argument has validity. People make considerably more than they made when Reagan was president, but things also cost more. This is how free market capitalism works, the more things cost to produce the more they cost to buy. Also, the more money people make the less value money has.

To try and make these things "equal and fair" you have to destroy free market capitalist systems and replace freedom with authoritarian mandate. Utopian "equality and fairness" requires the sacrifice of freedom and liberty and necessarily devolves outcome to the lowest common denominator. This is why people in China make $1 a day.

 

[Dragonlady]

I am uncomfortable with the term "workers" here. We do not live in a Communist country. People who are "workers" have the freedom to become CEOs if they don't like being "workers" and many do. They also have the freedom to find a better paying job or negotiating a higher rate of pay. Different jobs have differing rates of pay because of supply and demand. Capitalists pay CEOs based on the value they bring to the capitalist. If capitalists could make more profit paying CEOs less, that's what the capitalists would do.

"No real increase in wages since Reagan" is a very good example of how propaganda works. Statistics are manipulated to make it appear the argument has validity. People make considerably more than they made when Reagan was president, but things also cost more. This is how free market capitalism works, the more things cost to produce the more they cost to buy. Also, the more money people make the less value money has.

To try and make these things "equal and fair" you have to destroy free market capitalist systems and replace freedom with authoritarian mandate. Utopian "equality and fairness" requires the sacrifice of freedom and liberty and necessarily devolves outcome to the lowest common denominator. This is why people in China make $1 a day.

Perhaps your discomfort with the term "workers" stems from your conservative idea that those who do the work from which the executives derive their incomes, have little value.

The free market doesn't work. Free market economies suppress wages and increase poverty. Well regulated capitalism with mandated workers' rights and a social safety net to mitigate the damage of periodic recessions is better for the general public.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I am uncomfortable with the term "workers" here. We do not live in a Communist country. People who are "workers" have the freedom to become CEOs if they don't like being "workers" and many do. They also have the freedom to find a better paying job or negotiating a higher rate of pay. Different jobs have differing rates of pay because of supply and demand. Capitalists pay CEOs based on the value they bring to the capitalist. If capitalists could make more profit paying CEOs less, that's what the capitalists would do.

"No real increase in wages since Reagan" is a very good example of how propaganda works. Statistics are manipulated to make it appear the argument has validity. People make considerably more than they made when Reagan was president, but things also cost more. This is how free market capitalism works, the more things cost to produce the more they cost to buy. Also, the more money people make the less value money has.

To try and make these things "equal and fair" you have to destroy free market capitalist systems and replace freedom with authoritarian mandate. Utopian "equality and fairness" requires the sacrifice of freedom and liberty and necessarily devolves outcome to the lowest common denominator. This is why people in China make $1 a day.

Perhaps your discomfort with the term "workers" stems from your conservative idea that those who do the work from which the executives derive their incomes, have little value.

The free market doesn't work. Free market economies suppress wages and increase poverty. Well regulated capitalism with mandated workers' rights and a social safety net to mitigate the damage of periodic recessions is better for the general public.

True.

The notion of ‘deregulation’ is reckless, irresponsible, naïve, and reactionary.

State and Federal labor laws and regulatory policies safeguard workers and consumers alike from unscrupulous business owners who seek to maximize profits at the expense of their employees' health and safety.

 

[Boss]

Perhaps your discomfort with the term "workers" stems from your conservative idea that those who do the work from which the executives derive their incomes, have little value.

The free market doesn't work. Free market economies suppress wages and increase poverty. Well regulated capitalism with mandated workers' rights and a social safety net to mitigate the damage of periodic recessions is better for the general public.

My discomfort with the term "workers" is what I stated. It is a throwback to European Socialism arguments where "workers" were a class of society. We don't have societal classes in America, everyone is free to move into whatever class they wish. We've allowed Socialists to propagandize class and promote this notion, as if no one ever moves from their appointed class. Nothing is further from truth in a free market capitalist system.

Not only does free market capitalism work, it's the only thing that does work. Free market capitalism is responsible for creating more millionaires and billionaires than any system ever created by mankind. Countless, are the number of "poor class workers" who have vaulted to success and wealth through the free market capitalist system. It's precisely because every "worker" has the opportunity and freedom to become as successful as they desire in America. All it takes is ambition, hard work and dedication.

The notion of ‘deregulation’ is reckless, irresponsible, naïve, and reactionary... State and Federal labor laws and regulatory policies safeguard workers and consumers alike from unscrupulous business owners who seek to maximize profits at the expense of their employees' health and safety.

The opposite is true. The notion of regulation is reckless, irresponsible and reactionary. Laws to safeguard against health hazards and consumer safety are not "regulation" by any measure of the term. These are common sense measures to protect individuals which we can universally agree are necessary. We have long departed from these "common sense" measures and have embarked on a Marxist-Socialist idea of Utopianist thinking that we can somehow make everything "fair and equal" for all. In doing this, we destroy free market capitalism and stifle freedom for the sake of a false sense of security. It begins with the idea that "workers and consumers" have no choice but to tolerate whatever, which is essentially what you have in a totalitarian Marxist-Socialist system.

 

[occupied]

TL;DR The quest for a more just and equitable society has produced western civilization itself rather than the lousy absolute monarchies and strongman dictatorships that seem to be the default condition of mankind.

 

[Boss]

TL;DR The quest for a more just and equitable society has produced western civilization itself rather than the lousy absolute monarchies and strongman dictatorships that seem to be the default condition of mankind.

You should take the time to read the OP, it's really not that long. What you say is somewhat correct, however... why do you think absolute monarchies and strongarm dictatorships exist? Are those people not interested in more just and equitable society?

In an absolute free capitalist system, there can be no absolute equality and fairness. This may seem harsh, but the truth is, the thing that makes capitalism work for the betterment of man is the fact that success is rewarded with monetary gain realized by some over others. In a "fair and equal" system, the capitalist cannot profit, that's not fair to those who pay the profit. However, in a free capitalist system, anyone can become the capitalist and prosper, and that is what is encouraged in a truly free society.

In the closed market systems of monarchies and dictatorships, things are more equitable and fair, but no one can gain monetary advantage over another. This means you have "worker" class, where people are imprisoned and enslaved to a class they cannot escape. This becomes the contrast to the "ruling class" who control all the wealth and power, and subsequently, all the freedom.

 

[occupied]

TL;DR The quest for a more just and equitable society has produced western civilization itself rather than the lousy absolute monarchies and strongman dictatorships that seem to be the default condition of mankind.

You should take the time to read the OP, it's really not that long. What you say is somewhat correct, however... why do you think absolute monarchies and strongarm dictatorships exist? Are those people not interested in more just and equitable society?

In an absolute free capitalist system, there can be no absolute equality and fairness. This may seem harsh, but the truth is, the thing that makes capitalism work for the betterment of man is the fact that success is rewarded with monetary gain realized by some over others. In a "fair and equal" system, the capitalist cannot profit, that's not fair to those who pay the profit. However, in a free capitalist system, anyone can become the capitalist and prosper, and that is what is encouraged in a truly free society.

In the closed market systems of monarchies and dictatorships, things are more equitable and fair, but no one can gain monetary advantage over another. This means you have "worker" class, where people are imprisoned and enslaved to a class they cannot escape. This becomes the contrast to the "ruling class" who control all the wealth and power, and subsequently, all the freedom.

There can be no such thing as an absolute free capitalist system so why even bring it up? Power must be accountable for it's actions, be it political or economic, or tyranny will result, especially in a system that rewards cold exploitation like unfettered capitalism.

 

[Boss]

There can be no such thing as an absolute free capitalist system so why even bring it up? Power must be accountable for it's actions, be it political or economic, or tyranny will result, especially in a system that rewards cold exploitation like unfettered capitalism.

Well certainly there can be, just as there can be the opposite. We don't have an absolutely free unfettered capitalist system because it results in absolute and unfettered exploitation. However, capitalism IS exploitation. A capitalist exploits needs of the individual in order to realize profit. There is no other way for free market capitalism to work.

Power is seldom ever accountable for it's actions, that's the benefit of power. Tyranny results in the absence of freedom, and destroying free market capitalism is the fastest way to tyrannic power. It is our free market capitalist system that enables anyone to obtain power and wealth over others. That cannot be a "fair and equal" proposition for everyone. The opportunity can be fair and equal, unless you destroy opportunity for the sake of being "fair and equal." This is what Utopianism seeks to do, and it's to the detriment of man, not the benefit.

 

[American_Jihad]

March 30, 2016
Coming soon: The new American theocracy
By AJ Castellitto

...

America was never a Christian nation represented by a single religious persuasion. However, our rule of law was definitely established under the ironclad premise that we are one nation under God!

The time has come for widespread recognition of the radical changes in religious beliefs throughout the modern world. The time is past for mere revision of traditional attitudes. Science and economic change have disrupted the old beliefs... In order that religious humanism may be better understood we... desire to make certain affirmations which we believe the facts of our contemporary life demonstrate. —Humanist Manifesto I

The great experiment has gone AWOL and is being replaced by a baseless arbitrary utopian fantasy void of reason and reality. Law without a moral foundation is like a ship without a rudder.

This nation was founded on faith and freedom. In the wisdom of a narcissistic few shall we trust? Over our dead bodies...

Tragically, it feels as if it’s where we’re headed. When you take away reason, design, and moral absolutes, anything can be justified.

Blind revenge and contrived revolution that fails to see past the physical complexion into the heart and soul of man ultimately amounts to a fool's paradise (and a wise man's hell). At the end of the day, this is where we are.

With the left leading the way, America is become a land of make-believe in the making. Radical activism reigns...

So stand the theses of religious humanism. Though we consider the religious forms and ideas of our fathers no longer adequate, the quest for the good life is still the central task for mankind. Man is at last becoming aware that he alone is responsible for the realization of the world of his dreams, that he has within himself the power for its achievement."

Our liberty, freedom, and governmental consent are the inalienable rights of every naturalized American citizen. We are not a theocracy, but we were never intended to become a godless oligarchy. This is exactly where we are headed.

...


Read more: Blog: Coming soon: The new American theocracy
Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook

 

[Moonglow]

Which God is the USA under and does some of that radiance of holy recognition extend to other nations as well..I mean, God surely doesn't favor the USA over say the Jews......