Everyone is dancing around the truth in the Sandra Bland arrest. What happened is obvious.

[MikeK]

With all due respect, Mike...the police officer DOES have the discretion to decide whether you get a warning or a ticket.

I know that. I'm not saying they don't presently have that discretion. I'm saying they shouldn't have it because it imparts the status of a judge to them and it promotes situations like this one.

Warnings are issued only for minor traffic infractions by drivers who have a clean driving record. That should be the only criterion for deciding who gets a warning. Not the cop's personal judgment.

If your driving record is clean and your infraction is not serious, such as deliberately running a light or stop sign, or excessively speeding, etc., you should be issued a warning. But if your behavior toward the cop is such that he feels you deserve punishment for it, that is something aside from the traffic offense.

You've broken a law and that police officer is the on site representative of our legal system who you are dealing with. You can do everything in your power to make that officer decide in your favor and give you a warning...or you can bust his chops and probably get a ticket or worse. My question for you is a simple one...why would you antagonize the person who has that discretion? It's just plain stupid.

Antagonizing a police officer is a completely separate issue from a traffic infraction. It is disorderly conduct which must be specifically described in the officer's complaint -- much more specifically described than "Busting my chops."

I believe the bottom line in this issue is had the cop not told Bland to put her cigarette out, which amounts to redundant nonsense on his part, and just issued her the appropriate summons, you and I wouldn't be debating the issue right now -- because it wouldn't exist.

 

[MikeK]

See, here's the rub. There is no legal standard that allows for attitude. Either ticket me or walk the fuck away. That's the two choices available if the officer has no other probable cause. He certainly shouldn't continue to escalate the situation until he feels he has one.

And therein lies the tale.

 

[MikeK]

[...]

That person at the Registry of Motor Vehicles that you got snippy with has no right to deny you a new license because you don't have the "required" ID's but you know as well as I do that they will do exactly that! So you have a choice...play nice with the asshole behind the counter...or have them cause inconvenience in your life.

You have a third choice and I'm surprised you either don't know it or would choose to ignore it.

If you do have the required ID but some petit bureaucrat behind a counter decides he/she wishes to punish you by refusing to do what he/she is required to do, your next step is to demand to speak with a supervisor -- and if necessary ask a bystander to witness the problem. But if the problem is the result of your definably offensive conduct that would only worsen things for you.

But ultimately you cannot be denied a driver license renewal because of a petty conflict with a clerk.

 

[MikeK]

He was out of line, but she clearly exacerbated the situation.

I'd say they both did some exacerbating. But the cop was in control of the situation and all he needed to do was write the summons and say goodbye. It was up to him but he chose to take it to the limit.

 

[Oldstyle]

I'm baffled by this concept that the police should be held to a higher standard than the rest of us.

Try this out, Hutch...go to the Registry of Motor Vehicles and treat that person behind the counter like they're something you just scraped off the bottom of your shoe and see what happens. I guarantee that whatever you brought with you to get that new license or register that new vehicle isn't going to satisfy Registry "requirements".

Anyone who deals with people in the real world regularly knows that being cordial gets you better results than being an asshole.

Look I'm not advocating people be assholes. I get it. I'm always cordial and have never had a bad experience. That's not to say that the police in any way have the right to fuck me because I was a smartass. It baffles me why you would be ok with that.

It's not that I'm either OK or not OK with it, Hutch...I simply grasp that it's reality and deal with that reality in the most logical way I can. That goes for not just for your interactions with the police, by the way but for your interactions with just about everyone. That person at the Registry of Motor Vehicles that you got snippy with has no right to deny you a new license because you don't have the "required" ID's but you know as well as I do that they will do exactly that! So you have a choice...play nice with the asshole behind the counter...or have them cause inconvenience in your life.

Not really the same thing dude.

How is it not? You really think people who are police officers don't have the same reactions to stimuli as the rest of us? How exactly is that accomplished by donning a uniform and pinning a badge on it? Or do you think they should all be Robo Cops?

 

[Oldstyle]

[...]

That person at the Registry of Motor Vehicles that you got snippy with has no right to deny you a new license because you don't have the "required" ID's but you know as well as I do that they will do exactly that! So you have a choice...play nice with the asshole behind the counter...or have them cause inconvenience in your life.

You have a third choice and I'm surprised you either don't know it or would choose to ignore it.

If you do have the required ID but some petit bureaucrat behind a counter decides he/she wishes to punish you by refusing to do what he/she is required to do, your next step is to demand to speak with a supervisor -- and if necessary ask a bystander to witness the problem. But if the problem is the result of your definably offensive conduct that would only worsen things for you.

But ultimately you cannot be denied a driver license renewal because of a petty conflict with a clerk.

Come on, Mike...let's not kid ourselves! You know as well as I do that a petty bureaucrat may not be able to deny someone a new license for good but they can sure make people jump through a whole bunch of hoops before that happens!

 

[Oldstyle]

He was out of line, but she clearly exacerbated the situation.

I'd say they both did some exacerbating. But the cop was in control of the situation and all he needed to do was write the summons and say goodbye. It was up to him but he chose to take it to the limit.

With all due respect, Mike..."she" is the one in charge of the situation. If she puts out her cigarette and signs the warning, that police officer tells her to have a nice day, gets back in his cruiser and leaves. She doesn't do that though...does she? She makes a decision that she doesn't like what the police officer has done stopping her for changing lanes without signalling and she's going to give him a piece of her mind. Now do I think the police officer over reacted to her? Yes, I do. He shouldn't have let her attitude get under his skin. At that point the old saying "it takes two to tango" applies to what is happening. She won't back down and neither will he. She resists arrest and she goes to jail. He "wins" his contest with her and then gets roasted by the media when she subsequently commits suicide in jail. The person who ultimately took it to the limit was her.

 

[sealybobo]

Rdean, she failed to follow the rules and she got what she deserved. Follow the rules and this sort of stuff doesn't happen

I'm 4 years old and have never gotten a movie g violation or been arrested. Why the cast majority of Americans can't say the same thing suggests to me that the biggest problem in thus country is likely it's citizens.

She didn't use a turn signal so she deserved to die. Never heard that "rule" applied to a white person, have you?

God but you're clueless! She took her own life. She went to jail because she decided to give a police officer attitude over a warning that she was being issued. Was it a ticky tack traffic stop? Getting pulled over for not signalling a lane change? Hell yeah, it was but that's what police officers DO! I'm making a guess that the area this took place in is being targeted by the police, which means they're stopping every vehicle that they can for whatever reason they can. I've been pulled over by the police many times in just the same way. They talk to you, ask you where it is you're going, check your info, then they issue you a warning and you're on your way. Is it a pain in the ass sitting there on the side of the road while they check you out? Hell, yeah it is but you're an idiot if you decide that the intelligent thing to do is to get in the cop's face for stopping you. Get this through your head...that cop isn't looking for YOU...he or she is looking for BAD GUYS DOING BAD STUFF! They ARE going to let you go on your way with a warning. They don't want to cite you! They don't want to arrest you! Look at it this way...if they see you again...they're probably going to remember you as that person who didn't come back with priors or outstanding warrants. You're one of the GOOD GUYS! The kind of people that police officers like!

Ok. I agree up to the point the cop lost his shit. Even his boss said he didn't follow procedure. What was she arrested for?
The cop had all of the control. You can't arrest someone for being a smartass. That's on video as well. The cop has an obligation to be professional as well since it's being recorders and all. Otherwise he is a liability.
Why you all defer to the cops is beyond me.

He didn't arrest her for being a smart ass but that's what started the whole thing.

 

[sealybobo]

Cop says get out of the car, you get out of the car. If the cop says stand on one leg and bark like a dog, you stand on one leg and bark like a dog.

If you take issue with it, remember it's being recorded, and sue them after the fact.

If the cop says stand on one leg and bark like a dog, you stand on one leg and bark like a dog.

Not gonna happen. If you want a police state, that's what you do. I don't want a police state.

Well then, give the cop a hard time, and go to jail. I don't care.

She didn't give the cop a hard time. He gave her a hard time.

The cop was certainly more unreasonable than she was.

Really? He wasn't the one in risk of being ticketed or jailed. But he might get fired. I'm having a hard time defending his reaction but she refused to stop being ignorant.

 

[sealybobo]

Wow for once I disagree with you. Actually I agree about the cops but also have an issue with the disrespect blacks feel they should be allowed to give to cops.

I don't talk like that to cops and if I did I would expect trouble.

Do black people think white people get away with disrespecting cops? Because we don't.

for once?.....so you agree with dean that all republicans are like he says they are?...

If you mean stupid kaka poo poo yes.

well that answered that....avoid answering, just like the guy....

I don't know what your asking harry.

sure you do....you said you always agree with dean except here.....so you know what dean says ALL Republicans believe,which is bullshit...when dean says ALL Republicans hate minorities,even though thousands of them have lived out here amongst them for decades and have even married them...so do you agree with him?...do you believe all Republicans hate gays,the poor,dont want people to have health ins,dont like science and education...this is what this unfortunate stroonge believes....so do you agree with him?....because by saying what you said above...you do...he said i was a racist in another thread last week,when i asked him to do what he claims he does better than anyone here,prove it....the guy just could not do it,so he started playing his little games that he always plays..."i dont know what you are talking about"....thats what im talking about bobo....

Yes I agree with rdean about republicans. I don't consider you one though. You even admit you hate both parties, remember? You won't vote Republican or Democrats, remember? I suspect now you were lying. You'll end up voting jeb even after all your talk about how you won't.

Saying not true doesn't make me believe you.

GOP policies prove rdean right. If you support those policies then to some degree about you. You know I like you but hate your racist political positions.

 

[sealybobo]

Wow for once I disagree with you. Actually I agree about the cops but also have an issue with the disrespect blacks feel they should be allowed to give to cops.

I don't talk like that to cops and if I did I would expect trouble.

Do black people think white people get away with disrespecting cops? Because we don't.

for once?.....so you agree with dean that all republicans are like he says they are?...

If you mean stupid kaka poo poo yes.

well that answered that....avoid answering, just like the guy....

I don't know what your asking harry.

sure you do....you said you always agree with dean except here.....so you know what dean says ALL Republicans believe,which is bullshit...when dean says ALL Republicans hate minorities,even though thousands of them have lived out here amongst them for decades and have even married them...so do you agree with him?...do you believe all Republicans hate gays,the poor,dont want people to have health ins,dont like science and education...this is what this unfortunate stroonge believes....so do you agree with him?....because by saying what you said above...you do...he said i was a racist in another thread last week,when i asked him to do what he claims he does better than anyone here,prove it....the guy just could not do it,so he started playing his little games that he always plays..."i dont know what you are talking about"....thats what im talking about bobo....

Are you really trying to make us defend ourselves when we say "Republicans" do something? Just like not all whites aren't racist and all liberals aren't godless, no not all Republicans are racist. I think you know what we mean.

Great example or comparison is saying "the black community needs help". No not every black in that community needs help but the community as a whole does. Same with the GOP.

 

[JoeB131]

The Cop was an asshole for pulling the girl over.

But the girl is completely responsible for what happened afterwards.

Cops can be assholes. Is that a news-flash for anybody in here? Seriously, are you THAT stupid and naive?

A Cop pulls you over, for ANY reason, and if you can walk away with a warning ticket, it's a good day.

Immature, juvenile douchebags need to learn how to control their stupid fucking mouths.

Not necessarily because it's a Cop you're being an asshole to, but also because the guy you're being an asshole to has a gun, a taser, a billy club, mace, outweighs and out-muscles you and has the LEGAL RIGHT to beat your fucking ass.

How stupid can you get?

The gene pool is much improved with this cretin out of it

Hey, Edgy, what if that was someone you cared about. Maybe she was having a bad day and mouthed off when she shouldn't have. Maybe her boyfriend just dumped her.

Just because you are having a bad day and you flip out when a cop gives you a ticket, does not make it okay for the cop to threaten you, assault you, arrest you under false pretenses.

The police officer is supposed to be a trained professional who is trained in deescalation. instead this guy escalated the situation.

 

[JoeB131]

So you're saying she should get preferential treatment because she's black?

No. I'm saying the cop should have more sense than to provoke unnecessary encounters.

He pulled that woman over to issue a warning or a summons. He knows that no one likes being stopped by a cop and that the emotional effect of that experience ranges from nervous annoyance to festering anger. So why didn't he just issue the warning, or write the summons, say good day and be on his way? Why did he take the step which he knew would provoke an angry and/or belligerent response from this woman?

Was it racism, or authoritarian ego compulsion, or both?
Regardless of which or what, he is paid to enforce traffic laws by issuing warnings or summonses -- not for exercising his racial disposition or his ego -- which is exactly what he did. Now she is dead, he is suspended, the taxpayers will pay the price for it and sensible cops all over America will be compromised by another clearly unnecessary Black death incident.

It's common practice for an officer to have you put out your cigarette.

Really? What else is it common practice for cops to do? The obvious question is, WHY? Is smoking cigarettes against the law? Is smoking in one's car illegal? Having no further enforcement concern than a minor traffic offense, does a cop have a legal right to order the recipient of a warning or a summons to put his/her cigarette out? The answer is no -- even if the redundant order is softened by the word, please. It's still an implicit order.

So why do they do it. In this example we have a basic nobody, a yokel who were it not for civil service would be delivering packages for FedEx or flipping burgers. Now he's equipped with the ability to intimidate some nervous or pissed-off individual with the choice between receiving a traffic warning or a summons in exchange for the simple price of kissing his ass by not telling him where to go.

In fact i've been asked several times to do so over the years. And the amazing part? I never went to jail over it.

I think most people submit to these small-minded nobodies-with-badges because a warning is a better choice than a summons. Unless I am in a particularly bad mood I probably would submit, too. But sooner or later a Sandra Bland will come along, challenge the excess, the shit will hit the fan and a lot of innocent people will be compromised because of it.

I think we can rest assured this cop's supervisor has told the rest of his subordinates to knock off the extraneous, "put the cigarette out," nonsense. In fact, quite a few chickens have been coming home to roost where excessive conduct by police is concerned and the public is beginning to tire of it.

I think it would be a good idea to remove police discretion as to whether to issue a warning or a summons. I believe that should depend on the offenders past driving record and nothing else.

Wow. That was really... Good.

 

[sealybobo]

The Cop was an asshole for pulling the girl over.

But the girl is completely responsible for what happened afterwards.

Cops can be assholes. Is that a news-flash for anybody in here? Seriously, are you THAT stupid and naive?

A Cop pulls you over, for ANY reason, and if you can walk away with a warning ticket, it's a good day.

Immature, juvenile douchebags need to learn how to control their stupid fucking mouths.

Not necessarily because it's a Cop you're being an asshole to, but also because the guy you're being an asshole to has a gun, a taser, a billy club, mace, outweighs and out-muscles you and has the LEGAL RIGHT to beat your fucking ass.

How stupid can you get?

The gene pool is much improved with this cretin out of it

Hey, Edgy, what if that was someone you cared about. Maybe she was having a bad day and mouthed off when she shouldn't have. Maybe her boyfriend just dumped her.

Just because you are having a bad day and you flip out when a cop gives you a ticket, does not make it okay for the cop to threaten you, assault you, arrest you under false pretenses.

The police officer is supposed to be a trained professional who is trained in deescalation. instead this guy escalated the situation.

See? I agree with both sides.

 

[JoeB131]

Wrong. The Cop has every right to take complete control of the situation. All aspects. It is proper procedure to eliminate any unnecessary movements and distractions. A cigarette or cigar can be sued as a weapon as well. The suspect can throw or project that tobacco product into the eyes of the officer.
Her uncooperative and belligerent attitude is what got her arrested.

Silly Darkie. Rights are for White People!

 

[Skull Pilot]

Rdean, she failed to follow the rules and she got what she deserved. Follow the rules and this sort of stuff doesn't happen

I'm 4 years old and have never gotten a movie g violation or been arrested. Why the cast majority of Americans can't say the same thing suggests to me that the biggest problem in thus country is likely it's citizens.

Failing to follow the rules during a traffic stop is a capital offense.

And they wonder why I disagree with Conservatives!

In case you missed it she wasn't killed by the cops she died by her own hand

 

[Skull Pilot]

What do you tell your children. Do tell them screw the police you know your rights or do you tell them to be polite?

you can exercise your rights AND be polite at the same time

 

[Anathema]

Simple timeline from a simpleton.

Then what significant event did I miss?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

You have an articulate and good looking black woman who probably came from up north some where and you have a very red neck white officer with that hickey kind of country accent. He's probably spent his entire life within 10 miles of where that incident took place. I bet he has a half dozen confederate T shirts.

For some reason, and you can see it here on the USMB, conservatives and right wingers believe you should just give up every right you have and instantly jump at what a police officer says, no matter the circumstances, or you get what you deserve. Especially if you are black, Hispanic, gay or some other minority. It's an example of the ultimate police state.

So he stops her for not using her turn signal. Of course she should use her turn signal, that's what it's there for. He should have just given her a ticket or a warning. And if it was some other white with that hickey accent, you know he would have only given a verbal warning if he had bothered to stop them.

And I'll tell you something else. I have relatives in the deep south that I spent some vacations and a couple of summers with growing up. I speak perfect "Yawl (or as some USMB members insist, "ya'll"), and I have been stopped because my license is from out of state and I just start talking Yawl and they suddenly talk very nice and have never given me a ticket.

Clearly that officer provoked her and escalated the situation with "put out your cigarette" and "step out of the car" and arresting her. It wasn't that he wanted her respect. He wanted her to cower and shuffle and she wasn't having it. So in his tiny and racist little mind, he was teaching her a lesson and it was within his right to teach her that lesson no matter what the actual law said because of who he was, the uniform he was wearing and who she was. In that part of the country, it's the "natural order" of things.

She was a graduate of Prairie View A&M, which is in Texas. So she wasn't just some northern black stumbling into the backwoods.

 

[Anathema]

Failing to follow the rules during a traffic stop is a capital offense.

Yes; but in this case she killed herself, so that's not a meaningful point.