Existence

[ding]

All states of being have cause.

What caused the initial state of existence?

What would be the cause of the initial state of non-existence?

Why wouldn't that be the native state?

 

[OldLady]

All states of being have cause.

What caused the initial state of existence?

The only logical answer is a Creator. But those who reject God believe the big lie so that they can sleep at night, because they know that they have rejected God, and they know the price that they must pay.

Creation is awesome. A Big Daddy Creator who forces everyone to admire him? Sounds more like Ropey. Not buying that.

Faith is of God, hardwired into the species. Even atheists have doubts about their disbelief, because the existence of God cannot yet be proven by the experimental process, but only by the experiential. Reverse engineering of the nature of existence, which itself could not possibly exist except by willful cause, invariably reaches a certain conclusion.

Religion is a human construct of interpretation, hence the variety. Most minds seek understanding in some capacity of things that are currently impossible to understand.

I don't know what para 1 was about, but I agree with you about para 2.

 

[OldLady]

Ding, laws are just accurate observations of how the universe works. The observer created them, not some cosmic intelligence.

But the laws existed before space and time existed. Otherwise there would have been no rules that governed the creation of space and time. Everything is information based. Information is the domain of intelligence. It is the language of intelligence.

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. Yes, everything behaves within certain parameters just because they do. That's the Thing-ed-ness of Things. You're saying a caterpillar isn't three inches long until we've invented the ruler. The caterpillar was ALWAYS three inches long. We humans devised a measurement system but it didn't change the caterpillar in any way and it didn't require a ruler for the caterpillar to come into existence.

Whence came Things that can have Thing-ed-ness? Why is there Thing-ed-ness?

Because

I'm serious. It is because it is. It's awesome. I don't pretend to know whence came the First Egg or Chicken. It is awesome in itself, destruction and warts and darkness and all. There's a dance we and everything moves to. We are part of it. That's enough for me.

 

[OldLady]

If man made God's are real, why won't they show themselves in this time of high doubt?
Think about how many world problems it would solve..
Does he not care?
Is he not real?

That's an issue of free will. God is not a hall monitor.

Either burning in hell or doing what he says isn't free will
Well, that might pass in North korea.. lol

It is free will. No one is forcing anyone to become a Christian. It's your choice.

Yeah, right. Free choice of believing in God or going to HELL.
Sounds like a dictatorship to me.

 

[ding]

All states of being have cause.

What caused the initial state of existence?

What would be the cause of the initial state of non-existence?

Leon Lederman explains:

"In the very beginning, there was a void, a curious form of vacuum, a nothingness containing no space, no time, no matter, no light, no sound. Yet the laws of nature were in place and this curious vacuum held potential. A story logically begins at the beginning, but this story is about the universe and unfortunately there are no data for the very beginnings--none, zero. We don't know anything about the universe until it reaches the mature age of a billion of a trillionth of a second. That is, some very short time after creation in the big bang. When you read or hear anything about the birth of the universe, someone is making it up--we are in the realm of philosophy. Only God knows what happened at the very beginning."

Leon Lederman, American experimental physicist and Nobel Laureate

 

[ding]

If man made God's are real, why won't they show themselves in this time of high doubt?
Think about how many world problems it would solve..
Does he not care?
Is he not real?

That's an issue of free will. God is not a hall monitor.

Either burning in hell or doing what he says isn't free will
Well, that might pass in North korea.. lol

It is free will. No one is forcing anyone to become a Christian. It's your choice.

Yeah, right. Free choice of believing in God or going to HELL.
Sounds like a dictatorship to me.

What's up with all this preoccupation with hell?

 

[OldLady]

All states of being have cause.

What caused the initial state of existence?

What would be the cause of the initial state of non-existence?

Leon Lederman explains:

"In the very beginning, there was a void, a curious form of vacuum, a nothingness containing no space, no time, no matter, no light, no sound. Yet the laws of nature were in place and this curious vacuum held potential. A story logically begins at the beginning, but this story is about the universe and unfortunately there are no data for the very beginnings--none, zero. We don't know anything about the universe until it reaches the mature age of a billion of a trillionth of a second. That is, some very short time after creation in the big bang. When you read or hear anything about the birth of the universe, someone is making it up--we are in the realm of philosophy. Only God knows what happened at the very beginning."

Leon Lederman, American experimental physicist and Nobel Laureate

Maybe we're flumoxed because we are trying to impose linear thinking on something with no beginning and no end....have I heard that somewhere before?

 

[RWNJ]

If man made God's are real, why won't they show themselves in this time of high doubt?
Think about how many world problems it would solve..
Does he not care?
Is he not real?

That's an issue of free will. God is not a hall monitor.

Either burning in hell or doing what he says isn't free will
Well, that might pass in North korea.. lol

How many times is hell mentioned in the Bible versus how to live? Have you ever considered that your premise is wrong that the Bible teaches that you either do the right thing or burn in hell?

Is it wrong?

If man made God's are real, why won't they show themselves in this time of high doubt?
Think about how many world problems it would solve..
Does he not care?
Is he not real?

That's an issue of free will. God is not a hall monitor.

Either burning in hell or doing what he says isn't free will
Well, that might pass in North korea.. lol

It is free will. No one is forcing anyone to become a Christian. It's your choice.

Yeah, right. Free choice of believing in God or going to HELL.
Sounds like a dictatorship to me.

If you were on death row, and the governor granted you a pardon, would accept it? All people are under a sentence of death because we have all sinned. Jesus wants to give you a pardon. All you have to do is accept it. It doesn't cost you a thing.

 

[OldLady]

If man made God's are real, why won't they show themselves in this time of high doubt?
Think about how many world problems it would solve..
Does he not care?
Is he not real?

That's an issue of free will. God is not a hall monitor.

Either burning in hell or doing what he says isn't free will
Well, that might pass in North korea.. lol

It is free will. No one is forcing anyone to become a Christian. It's your choice.

Yeah, right. Free choice of believing in God or going to HELL.
Sounds like a dictatorship to me.

What's up with all this preoccupation with hell?

Not me--that other guy.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

But the laws existed before space and time existed. Otherwise there would have been no rules that governed the creation of space and time. Everything is information based. Information is the domain of intelligence. It is the language of intelligence.

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. Yes, everything behaves within certain parameters just because they do. That's the Thing-ed-ness of Things. You're saying a caterpillar isn't three inches long until we've invented the ruler. The caterpillar was ALWAYS three inches long. We humans devised a measurement system but it didn't change the caterpillar in any way and it didn't require a ruler for the caterpillar to come into existence.

Whence came Things that can have Thing-ed-ness? Why is there Thing-ed-ness?

Because

I'm serious. It is because it is. It's awesome. I don't pretend to know whence came the First Egg or Chicken. It is awesome in itself, destruction and warts and darkness and all. There's a dance we and everything moves to. We are part of it. That's enough for me.

Nothing "is" simply because it "is".

 

[ding]

All states of being have cause.

What caused the initial state of existence?

What would be the cause of the initial state of non-existence?

Leon Lederman explains:

"In the very beginning, there was a void, a curious form of vacuum, a nothingness containing no space, no time, no matter, no light, no sound. Yet the laws of nature were in place and this curious vacuum held potential. A story logically begins at the beginning, but this story is about the universe and unfortunately there are no data for the very beginnings--none, zero. We don't know anything about the universe until it reaches the mature age of a billion of a trillionth of a second. That is, some very short time after creation in the big bang. When you read or hear anything about the birth of the universe, someone is making it up--we are in the realm of philosophy. Only God knows what happened at the very beginning."

Leon Lederman, American experimental physicist and Nobel Laureate

Maybe we're flumoxed because we are trying to impose linear thinking on something with no beginning and no end....have I heard that somewhere before?

Linear thinking does not work so well in a cyclical universe. See saeculum, but I digress. Oh, there was a beginning and there will be an end. So, I don't know where you heard that.

 

[onefour1]

Is there proof that all states of being have cause? If so, what is that proof? The presumption of an initial state of non-existence is not proven. I believe that all the matter and energy and intelligence in existence have always existed.

 

[OldLady]

All states of being have cause.

What caused the initial state of existence?

What would be the cause of the initial state of non-existence?

Leon Lederman explains:

"In the very beginning, there was a void, a curious form of vacuum, a nothingness containing no space, no time, no matter, no light, no sound. Yet the laws of nature were in place and this curious vacuum held potential. A story logically begins at the beginning, but this story is about the universe and unfortunately there are no data for the very beginnings--none, zero. We don't know anything about the universe until it reaches the mature age of a billion of a trillionth of a second. That is, some very short time after creation in the big bang. When you read or hear anything about the birth of the universe, someone is making it up--we are in the realm of philosophy. Only God knows what happened at the very beginning."

Leon Lederman, American experimental physicist and Nobel Laureate

Maybe we're flumoxed because we are trying to impose linear thinking on something with no beginning and no end....have I heard that somewhere before?

Linear thinking does not work so well in a cyclical universe. See saeculum, but I digress. Oh, there was a beginning and there will be an end. So, I don't know where you heard that.

We sing it when they pass the collection plate. The Doxology, I think? Don't know how to spell it.

 

[ding]

That's an issue of free will. God is not a hall monitor.

Either burning in hell or doing what he says isn't free will
Well, that might pass in North korea.. lol

It is free will. No one is forcing anyone to become a Christian. It's your choice.

Yeah, right. Free choice of believing in God or going to HELL.
Sounds like a dictatorship to me.

What's up with all this preoccupation with hell?

Not me--that other guy.

What other guy? Didn't you write, "Yeah, right. Free choice of believing in God or going to HELL.
Sounds like a dictatorship to me."

It sounds like you don't know what you are talking about to me.

 

[OldLady]

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. Yes, everything behaves within certain parameters just because they do. That's the Thing-ed-ness of Things. You're saying a caterpillar isn't three inches long until we've invented the ruler. The caterpillar was ALWAYS three inches long. We humans devised a measurement system but it didn't change the caterpillar in any way and it didn't require a ruler for the caterpillar to come into existence.

Whence came Things that can have Thing-ed-ness? Why is there Thing-ed-ness?

Because

I'm serious. It is because it is. It's awesome. I don't pretend to know whence came the First Egg or Chicken. It is awesome in itself, destruction and warts and darkness and all. There's a dance we and everything moves to. We are part of it. That's enough for me.

Nothing "is" simply because it "is".

That makes no sense to me. Convince me otherwise.

 

[ding]

All states of being have cause.

What caused the initial state of existence?

What would be the cause of the initial state of non-existence?

Leon Lederman explains:

"In the very beginning, there was a void, a curious form of vacuum, a nothingness containing no space, no time, no matter, no light, no sound. Yet the laws of nature were in place and this curious vacuum held potential. A story logically begins at the beginning, but this story is about the universe and unfortunately there are no data for the very beginnings--none, zero. We don't know anything about the universe until it reaches the mature age of a billion of a trillionth of a second. That is, some very short time after creation in the big bang. When you read or hear anything about the birth of the universe, someone is making it up--we are in the realm of philosophy. Only God knows what happened at the very beginning."

Leon Lederman, American experimental physicist and Nobel Laureate

Maybe we're flumoxed because we are trying to impose linear thinking on something with no beginning and no end....have I heard that somewhere before?

Linear thinking does not work so well in a cyclical universe. See saeculum, but I digress. Oh, there was a beginning and there will be an end. So, I don't know where you heard that.

We sing it when they pass the collection plate. The Doxology, I think? Don't know how to spell it.

Yeah, I don't know what you are talking about.

 

[ding]

Is there proof that all states of being have cause? If so, what is that proof? The presumption of an initial state of non-existence is not proven. I believe that all the matter and energy and intelligence in existence have always existed.

It is the basis for science. It is called cause and effect and everything has one.

Tell you what... heat up your stove and stick your hand on it. That's cause and effect.

 

[OldLady]

Either burning in hell or doing what he says isn't free will
Well, that might pass in North korea.. lol

It is free will. No one is forcing anyone to become a Christian. It's your choice.

Yeah, right. Free choice of believing in God or going to HELL.
Sounds like a dictatorship to me.

What's up with all this preoccupation with hell?

Not me--that other guy.

What other guy? Didn't you write, "Yeah, right. Free choice of believing in God or going to HELL.
Sounds like a dictatorship to me."

It sounds like you don't know what you are talking about to me.

When threats of suffering the eternal flames of fire and brimstone or the Nine Circles described by Dante are your only choice except blind belief, I find that not much of a choice. How hard is that to understand, Ding?

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

Is there proof that all states of being have cause? If so, what is that proof? The presumption of an initial state of non-existence is not proven. I believe that all the matter and energy and intelligence in existence have always existed.

Why?

 

[ding]

It is free will. No one is forcing anyone to become a Christian. It's your choice.

Yeah, right. Free choice of believing in God or going to HELL.
Sounds like a dictatorship to me.

What's up with all this preoccupation with hell?

Not me--that other guy.

What other guy? Didn't you write, "Yeah, right. Free choice of believing in God or going to HELL.
Sounds like a dictatorship to me."

It sounds like you don't know what you are talking about to me.

When threats of suffering the eternal flames of fire and brimstone or the Nine Circles described by Dante are your only choice except blind belief, I find that not much of a choice. How hard is that to understand, Ding?

That you are being selective in what you see.

Tell you what, write down every reference in the Bible to hell, then write down every reference in the Bible to accounts of living life and then get back to me and tell me what the message was. Fair enough?