Existence

[ding]

It is free will. No one is forcing anyone to become a Christian. It's your choice.

Yeah, right. Free choice of believing in God or going to HELL.
Sounds like a dictatorship to me.

What's up with all this preoccupation with hell?

Not me--that other guy.

What other guy? Didn't you write, "Yeah, right. Free choice of believing in God or going to HELL.
Sounds like a dictatorship to me."

It sounds like you don't know what you are talking about to me.

When threats of suffering the eternal flames of fire and brimstone or the Nine Circles described by Dante are your only choice except blind belief, I find that not much of a choice. How hard is that to understand, Ding?

Just curious... what were you taught hell is?

 

[OldLady]

What would be the cause of the initial state of non-existence?

Leon Lederman explains:

"In the very beginning, there was a void, a curious form of vacuum, a nothingness containing no space, no time, no matter, no light, no sound. Yet the laws of nature were in place and this curious vacuum held potential. A story logically begins at the beginning, but this story is about the universe and unfortunately there are no data for the very beginnings--none, zero. We don't know anything about the universe until it reaches the mature age of a billion of a trillionth of a second. That is, some very short time after creation in the big bang. When you read or hear anything about the birth of the universe, someone is making it up--we are in the realm of philosophy. Only God knows what happened at the very beginning."

Leon Lederman, American experimental physicist and Nobel Laureate

Maybe we're flumoxed because we are trying to impose linear thinking on something with no beginning and no end....have I heard that somewhere before?

Linear thinking does not work so well in a cyclical universe. See saeculum, but I digress. Oh, there was a beginning and there will be an end. So, I don't know where you heard that.

We sing it when they pass the collection plate. The Doxology, I think? Don't know how to spell it.

Yeah, I don't know what you are talking about.

What are you, a Hindu?

It's from the book of Common Prayer. You sing it. Surely, you've heard it. Not the Doxology, but I think it comes after.

 

[OldLady]

Yeah, right. Free choice of believing in God or going to HELL.
Sounds like a dictatorship to me.

What's up with all this preoccupation with hell?

Not me--that other guy.

What other guy? Didn't you write, "Yeah, right. Free choice of believing in God or going to HELL.
Sounds like a dictatorship to me."

It sounds like you don't know what you are talking about to me.

When threats of suffering the eternal flames of fire and brimstone or the Nine Circles described by Dante are your only choice except blind belief, I find that not much of a choice. How hard is that to understand, Ding?

Just curious... what were you taught hell is?

I'm a Congregationalist, so we didn't talk much about it.

 

[ding]

What's up with all this preoccupation with hell?

Not me--that other guy.

What other guy? Didn't you write, "Yeah, right. Free choice of believing in God or going to HELL.
Sounds like a dictatorship to me."

It sounds like you don't know what you are talking about to me.

When threats of suffering the eternal flames of fire and brimstone or the Nine Circles described by Dante are your only choice except blind belief, I find that not much of a choice. How hard is that to understand, Ding?

Just curious... what were you taught hell is?

I'm a Congregationalist, so we didn't talk much about it.

Ok, then why all the fuss about it? Have you considered that your premise is flawed?

 

[ding]

Leon Lederman explains:

"In the very beginning, there was a void, a curious form of vacuum, a nothingness containing no space, no time, no matter, no light, no sound. Yet the laws of nature were in place and this curious vacuum held potential. A story logically begins at the beginning, but this story is about the universe and unfortunately there are no data for the very beginnings--none, zero. We don't know anything about the universe until it reaches the mature age of a billion of a trillionth of a second. That is, some very short time after creation in the big bang. When you read or hear anything about the birth of the universe, someone is making it up--we are in the realm of philosophy. Only God knows what happened at the very beginning."

Leon Lederman, American experimental physicist and Nobel Laureate

Maybe we're flumoxed because we are trying to impose linear thinking on something with no beginning and no end....have I heard that somewhere before?

Linear thinking does not work so well in a cyclical universe. See saeculum, but I digress. Oh, there was a beginning and there will be an end. So, I don't know where you heard that.

We sing it when they pass the collection plate. The Doxology, I think? Don't know how to spell it.

Yeah, I don't know what you are talking about.

What are you, a Hindu?

It's from the book of Common Prayer. You sing it. Surely, you've heard it. Not the Doxology, but I think it comes after.

Yeah, that's totally out of context of this conversation. Two different topics.

That is more in line with the first cause discussion. Or did I not have that conversation with you?

 

[OldLady]

Not me--that other guy.

What other guy? Didn't you write, "Yeah, right. Free choice of believing in God or going to HELL.
Sounds like a dictatorship to me."

It sounds like you don't know what you are talking about to me.

When threats of suffering the eternal flames of fire and brimstone or the Nine Circles described by Dante are your only choice except blind belief, I find that not much of a choice. How hard is that to understand, Ding?

Just curious... what were you taught hell is?

I'm a Congregationalist, so we didn't talk much about it.

Ok, then why all the fuss about it? Have you considered that your premise is flawed?

Ding, this is supposed to be about existence. I rejected RWNJ's overtures and I said why. YOU are the one making an issue out of it. Drop the bone and get back to the topic, please.

 

[OldLady]

Maybe we're flumoxed because we are trying to impose linear thinking on something with no beginning and no end....have I heard that somewhere before?

Linear thinking does not work so well in a cyclical universe. See saeculum, but I digress. Oh, there was a beginning and there will be an end. So, I don't know where you heard that.

We sing it when they pass the collection plate. The Doxology, I think? Don't know how to spell it.

Yeah, I don't know what you are talking about.

What are you, a Hindu?

It's from the book of Common Prayer. You sing it. Surely, you've heard it. Not the Doxology, but I think it comes after.

Yeah, that's totally out of context of this conversation. Two different topics.

That is more in line with the first cause discussion. Or did I not have that conversation with you?

We aren't having a first cause discussion? Existence and how it came to be is not part of a "first cause?"
Look, Ding, I know when folks are splitting hairs. Not into going there. Maybe someone else here would be interested in how they're different.

 

[ding]

Linear thinking does not work so well in a cyclical universe. See saeculum, but I digress. Oh, there was a beginning and there will be an end. So, I don't know where you heard that.

We sing it when they pass the collection plate. The Doxology, I think? Don't know how to spell it.

Yeah, I don't know what you are talking about.

What are you, a Hindu?

It's from the book of Common Prayer. You sing it. Surely, you've heard it. Not the Doxology, but I think it comes after.

Yeah, that's totally out of context of this conversation. Two different topics.

That is more in line with the first cause discussion. Or did I not have that conversation with you?

We aren't having a first cause discussion? Existence and how it came to be is not part of a "first cause?"
Look, Ding, I know when folks are splitting hairs. Not into going there. Maybe someone else here would be interested in how they're different.

The Gloria prayer is talking about the first cause. That's what I was pointing out. I'm not splitting hairs. Our existence (i.e. Our universe) is finite. You were the one who muddied the water by transposing the two.

 

[ding]

What other guy? Didn't you write, "Yeah, right. Free choice of believing in God or going to HELL.
Sounds like a dictatorship to me."

It sounds like you don't know what you are talking about to me.

When threats of suffering the eternal flames of fire and brimstone or the Nine Circles described by Dante are your only choice except blind belief, I find that not much of a choice. How hard is that to understand, Ding?

Just curious... what were you taught hell is?

I'm a Congregationalist, so we didn't talk much about it.

Ok, then why all the fuss about it? Have you considered that your premise is flawed?

Ding, this is supposed to be about existence. I rejected RWNJ's overtures and I said why. YOU are the one making an issue out of it. Drop the bone and get back to the topic, please.

Ok but this is a source of your bias and it's flawed. If you grew up being told to behave or go to hell, you got told wrong.

 

[ding]

Is there proof that all states of being have cause? If so, what is that proof? The presumption of an initial state of non-existence is not proven. I believe that all the matter and energy and intelligence in existence have always existed.

Ok, but that's not how it came across.

 

[OldLady]

When threats of suffering the eternal flames of fire and brimstone or the Nine Circles described by Dante are your only choice except blind belief, I find that not much of a choice. How hard is that to understand, Ding?

Just curious... what were you taught hell is?

I'm a Congregationalist, so we didn't talk much about it.

Ok, then why all the fuss about it? Have you considered that your premise is flawed?

Ding, this is supposed to be about existence. I rejected RWNJ's overtures and I said why. YOU are the one making an issue out of it. Drop the bone and get back to the topic, please.

Ok but this is a source of your bias and it's flawed. If you grew up being told to behave or go to hell, you got told wrong.

Ding, you aren't even trying to talk sense.

 

[ding]

Just curious... what were you taught hell is?

I'm a Congregationalist, so we didn't talk much about it.

Ok, then why all the fuss about it? Have you considered that your premise is flawed?

Ding, this is supposed to be about existence. I rejected RWNJ's overtures and I said why. YOU are the one making an issue out of it. Drop the bone and get back to the topic, please.

Ok but this is a source of your bias and it's flawed. If you grew up being told to behave or go to hell, you got told wrong.

Ding, you aren't even trying to talk sense.

Says you. From my perspective you have taken a message about life and made it into a message about hell but I'm the one not making sense?

 

[ding]

What are you, a Hindu?

I've studied the major religions a little. I like Hinduism. The saying on my avie is a Hindu saying, I think. The books I read tried to see each religion in it's best light which I liked very much. When it comes right down to it, they all pretty much teach the same thing. It's just that only one makes the claim of being a revealed religion.

I might have missed your answer. What did you say your answer was to the question is it the nature of intelligence to create intelligence? Isn't that what man has done?

 

[ding]

Just curious... what were you taught hell is?

I'm a Congregationalist, so we didn't talk much about it.

Ok, then why all the fuss about it? Have you considered that your premise is flawed?

Ding, this is supposed to be about existence. I rejected RWNJ's overtures and I said why. YOU are the one making an issue out of it. Drop the bone and get back to the topic, please.

Ok but this is a source of your bias and it's flawed. If you grew up being told to behave or go to hell, you got told wrong.

Ding, you aren't even trying to talk sense.

My point earlier about you compiling a list from the Bible was to show you that no reasonable person who read the Bible would come away saying the central theme of the Bible was that if you don't worship God you are going to hell. You may not live the best life you could have lived here but when the time comes to cross over you're not going to get thrown in a burning pit for eternity.

 

[RodISHI]

I recall picking up sea shells and finding some that start from a single cell. From that single cell a whole mass can self procreate into a beautiful coral. On a spiritual level creation is breathed (by word) into existence. Our planet, the universe and ourselves are so intricately designed I can't imagine ever knowing all the ins and outs of it from a human's perspective. Even in the spirit there are limitations to the knowledge we are given and I am sure there is a purpose for that.

I don't know that there is a purpose for our limitations of knowledge, but our ability to be humble and bow before that which is intricate and complex beyond our comprehension is a good thing.

Our brains couldn't contain it all for sure. Only so much fits in in one lifetime here in the flesh and I do believe we are supposed to take some time for enjoyment in the beauty of the creation. Personally I can say I have failed in that department at times. I am very grateful for the times we were afforded the ability to travel and see so many wonderful things and meet so many different people in those years. Some of my family members think I wasted talent because I wasn't creating artworks during those years but I can't say I regret that as there were so many other things to learn about and see.

The more an artist sees and realizes about the world, the better their art. I doubt you "wasted" anything in that department, Rodishi.

There was a sorta famous art promoter years ago that wanted to make me famous for my oil paintings but I made the choice to follow the contracting instead. I don't regret that as I would have missed so much I learned in all of those experiences.

That's good. One should minimize regret whenever possible. The human mind does not do well with conflict between thought and action. I'm curious if you kept painting just for fun.

I haven't done much in oils but do some pretty cool sculpting and painting sometimes. Prior to the chemical exposure in 2007 I painted store fronts and other projects for special occasions and holidays (never wanted to give that up as it was always a blast and I was paid very well to do it too). Since the chemicals I done a few smaller things in clay and on clay, one large acrylic painting (n oils on hand or would have done it in oil) of my baby dog with his butterflies surrounding him after he passed (soothed my broken heart as I missed him so much). I've done some really fun graphics with music clips inserted on the computer but need a 2011 powerpoint to convert them in order to upload them. < if I ever get that done I'll give you a link, I think you would really enjoy them as they have a message in each of them that meshes with scripture.

 

[OldLady]

We sing it when they pass the collection plate. The Doxology, I think? Don't know how to spell it.

Yeah, I don't know what you are talking about.

What are you, a Hindu?

It's from the book of Common Prayer. You sing it. Surely, you've heard it. Not the Doxology, but I think it comes after.

Yeah, that's totally out of context of this conversation. Two different topics.

That is more in line with the first cause discussion. Or did I not have that conversation with you?

We aren't having a first cause discussion? Existence and how it came to be is not part of a "first cause?"
Look, Ding, I know when folks are splitting hairs. Not into going there. Maybe someone else here would be interested in how they're different.

The Gloria prayer is talking about the first cause. That's what I was pointing out. I'm not splitting hairs. Our existence (i.e. Our universe) is finite. You were the one who muddied the water by transposing the two.

You are very patient with those of us who have little knowledge of which we speak. This is all I know, but I would be interested in hearing more about it.
Our universe is finite.
My understanding of this, which could be wrong, is that our universe began with a Big Bang.
The Big Bang involved a black hole.
Black holes are understood to be collapsed stars.
To me, that means we were created by something that DID exist prior. It wasn't just Bang--created from nothing. The cosmos breathing in and out. We are an exhalation. Eventually that breath will end and something else will take its place.
So correct me if those assumptions are wrong. They surely could be.

 

[G.T.]

The Laws of Physics are descriptive, not prescriptive.

 

[RodISHI]

There is no end OldLady

As spiritual beings made in the image of the creator our breath also creates spiritual things. Ours has boundaries God does not have that limitation. It is a never ending kingdom that is beyond what a mere carnal human can perceive.

 

[Peach]

And it runs through my mind:

"Gloria in excelsis Deo"

 

[ding]

Yeah, I don't know what you are talking about.

What are you, a Hindu?

It's from the book of Common Prayer. You sing it. Surely, you've heard it. Not the Doxology, but I think it comes after.

Yeah, that's totally out of context of this conversation. Two different topics.

That is more in line with the first cause discussion. Or did I not have that conversation with you?

We aren't having a first cause discussion? Existence and how it came to be is not part of a "first cause?"
Look, Ding, I know when folks are splitting hairs. Not into going there. Maybe someone else here would be interested in how they're different.

The Gloria prayer is talking about the first cause. That's what I was pointing out. I'm not splitting hairs. Our existence (i.e. Our universe) is finite. You were the one who muddied the water by transposing the two.

You are very patient with those of us who have little knowledge of which we speak. This is all I know, but I would be interested in hearing more about it.
Our universe is finite.
My understanding of this, which could be wrong, is that our universe began with a Big Bang.
The Big Bang involved a black hole.
Black holes are understood to be collapsed stars.
To me, that means we were created by something that DID exist prior. It wasn't just Bang--created from nothing. The cosmos breathing in and out. We are an exhalation. Eventually that breath will end and something else will take its place.
So correct me if those assumptions are wrong. They surely could be.

If the universe is expanding then it must have a beginning. If you follow it backwards in time, then any object must come to a boundary of space time. You cannot continue that history indefinitely. This is still true even if a universe has periods of contraction. It still has to have a beginning if expansion over weights the contraction. Physicists have been uncomfortable with the idea of a beginning since the work of Friedman which showed that the solutions of Einstein's equation showed that the universe had a beginning.

The problem with a cyclical universe is with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. If it is a periodic universe then the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same. Entropy can never decrease. Which means that in a finite amount of time, a finite system will reach a maximum state of disorder which is called thermal equilibrium and then it will stay in that state. A cyclical universe cannot avoid this problem.

The best explanation for how the universe began is the inflation model. It is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe.

In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool.

In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.