Explain to us Libs, what is a living wage?

[Foxfyre]

I could not agree more
now that we have done that, why do you have an issue with a mandated minimum wage that is truly a living wage?
simple question, not a personal attack on you, the system, libs, conservatives
simple question.

If I bid on a federally funded project I will PAY bacon Davis wages, whats the difference if I own a hamburger joint?

Bern is right that a federally mandated 'living wge', whatever that is, is NOT a conservative concept because it does not allow the free market to work and whenever you skew the free market in one place it has many other ripple effects.

Why should you have to pay Bacon Davis wages in order to bid on a federal job? It often substantially increases the cost of the contract on a labor intensive job and that cost everybody. Multiplied again and again across the country, it adds up to mega millions or billions in wasted taxes. Why is the prevailing wage of the area not sufficient? Of course your workers like the higher wage, but it comes at a cost to somebody else who had no say in the process.

Why not make certification of legal status of your employees a mandate and otherwise give the contract to the lowest bidder who can provide the product according to specifications? Would that not be better stewardship of the people's money?

I am not sure your reading my threads
bacon-davis wage act
let me help
The Davis–Bacon Act of 1931 is a United States federal law which established the requirement for paying prevailing wages on public works projects. All federal government construction contracts, and most contracts for federally assisted construction over $2,000, must include provisions for paying workers on-site no less than the locally prevailing wages and benefits paid on similar projects.
now can we start there?
It has done nothing to harm the free market, nothing
It has made it ultra competitive
You know exactly what tools you need
what is expected of you
etc.....

this is a real program that is a huge success

Okay I was remiss in my remarks. You are correct that Bacon Davis requires the prevailing wage. However, it is the Dept. of Labor who sets what that wage will be and lately it has mandated that the prevailing wage is union wages. And it is that which is hugely escalating costs. This depression era legislation was intended to keep government purchasing power from driving DOWN the value of labor in a community. Now it has the reverse effect, especially since the pro-union Obama administration took over.

And while in a very few locations, the mandated Bacon Davis wages will be below the prevailing wages, in most cases it is the U.S. taxpayer who pays the difference.

The very first principle to be learned in government Economics 100:
You cannot use the people's money to benefit one person without taking money away from somebody else.

 

[kwc57]

Bern I have an issue with people who argue for just the sake of arguing. It has been no less than 30 threads ago you made it clear to all of us the employer has rights, the employee has none
All I have done is offer a resolution to a problem that is costing the tax payers and the corporations in this country 100s of billions
It works over seas in a free market country of Australia and works here when Bacon Davis has jurisdiction. You know whats the craziest thing? companies, most of them would not care
Look we get it okay?
What else is there to talk about? Your a free market guy who wants the tax payer to keep dealing with poverty, that thinks people (100s of thousands of us) that are professionals need to go to N.D and get a job making 11.00 an hour, instead of doing what every-one else in my sector and go to Canada , Australia etc... until we get a real president in power


Bern this country is in a very very bad place, poverty is an issue that also needs resolve Bern
your plan does nothing to resolve it, think about it

Not to speak for bern, but where did you ever get the idea that we conservatives were arguing for government to use taxpayer money to care for the poor. That really isn't any of the governments business and isn't even constitutional. There is a small minority of people who truely can not care for themselves and have no family that can care for them that needs a safety net. Beyond that, ending welfare would force those lazy 4th generation welfare folks to get off their ass and do something to actually support themselves. Now, if you think I am unempatehtic or unsympathetic, go back and read what I just said about the truely needy needing a safet net. The difference between you and me is in who the truely needy are. It isn't the people who have made bad choices in life that result in only being qualified for low paying jobs. There is no free lunch. Someone has to pay......and it should be the individual from the sweat of their own brow.

get off of the ass
make 17,000 a year
and we give them another 10-15 in welfare
works for me

you guys have missed this entire conversation so far I will never get you back, and it is very disturbing the 2 of you feel that employers have all of these rights and the employee has none
Yet I am stuck with the bill when it comes to paying there taxes, my taxes and those taxes ones who live in poverty are not paying. This problem has grown under Obama to a 600 billion dollar a year issue, all most the entire amount it cost us to liberate Iraq in dollars

Now you guys have made your points okay?
Let me give all 3 of you some advice

To resolve a problem, you have to understand it first
use the 5 whys, it works every time (Google it)
whats the problem? we are spending way to much in tax dollars towards well fare
how do we resolve it?
Get of of your lazy ass and work
7.75 an hour is way below a living wage according to the federal govt

Now what we do?

Programs using the guidelines (or percentage multiples of the guidelines — for instance, 125 percent or 185 percent of the guidelines) in determining eligibility include Head Start, the Food Stamp Program, the National School Lunch Program, the Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program, and the Children’s Health Insurance Program. Note that in general, cash public assistance programs (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families and Supplemental Security Income) do NOT use the poverty guidelines in determining eligibility. The Earned Income Tax Credit program also does NOT use the poverty guidelines to determine eligibility. For a more detailed list of programs that do and don’t use the guidelines, see the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs).

The poverty guidelines (unlike the poverty thresholds) are designated by the year in which they

they start @ about 11,000 for 1 @ 100% and go to about 19,000 with the 185%
You make 10.00 an hour, 1 person, your own your own

Now no need to respond to me, I have had all I need of this, you cannot be a success in life ignoring problems
My resolve was and is a free market resolution, may not see it that way, but leaving it alone its going to get worse
we were spending 50% of this n 07, we dbl down again it will be over 1 trillion dollars a year

Bullshit. Your "resolve" is a government mandated living wage. That my confused friend is not a free market "re"solution. Are you posting from a phone?

 

[Bern80]

Bern I have an issue with people who argue for just the sake of arguing. It has been no less than 30 threads ago you made it clear to all of us the employer has rights, the employee has none

And I have an issue with people who knowingly lie about what I've said as you have here. I have NEVER said the employee has no rights. I have stated repeatedly there is A right that they don't have. The right you have been advocating for. You do NOT have a right to obligate your employer to pay enough for you to live on.

All I have done is offer a resolution to a problem that is costing the tax payers and the corporations in this country 100s of billions

And it is a piss poor solution. This is basically the scenario debating which is better; Do you teach a hungry man to fish or do you just give him the fish. Your solution amounts to just giving him the fish.

What else is there to talk about? Your a free market guy who wants the tax payer to keep dealing with poverty, that thinks people (100s of thousands of us) that are professionals need to go to N.D and get a job making 11.00 an hour, instead of doing what every-one else in my sector and go to Canada , Australia etc... until we get a real president in power

This has to be be the most ass backwards statement so far. You are railing against the free market, yet claiming to be a conservative while offering a liberal solution to a problem while wanting to get a liberal out of office. Do you really wonder why we're all starting to think you're really just bat shit crazy? the only proof I need that I'm right is the fact that you don't have the balls to directly answer or do anything I've asked you to. You won't directly answer why YOU are not responsible for providing for yourself and you apparently won't take me up on my dare to put your resume on career builder and tell me there are no jobs. What do I think the 100 thousands of you whiners are supposed to do? SOMETHING DIFFERENT. Stop the fucking whining. $11/hr is an example. Ever heard of one. They also need truck drivers in there too and they start out at about 90k a year. The point is there are places in this country with high labor demands spanning all kinds of skill levels from low pay to six figure pay.

Bern this country is in a very very bad place, poverty is an issue that also needs resolve Bern
your plan does nothing to resolve it, think about it

My 'plan' is for people like you to stop assuming anyone else owes you anything beyond your value to them. You sit there and wait for something to happen when the rest of the world is more concerned with meeting their own needs than yours and you have the balls to wonder why nothing changes for you? If it simply weren't possible for a person to change something or do something different in their lives to make more money, I would be inclined to agree with you. But the simple fact is the vast majority of people don't achieve their potential. There ARE things people can change in their lives to earn more and there ARE job openeings out there right now that pay living wages and more.

Poverty is an issue. But the best way to help people is to help them help themselves. Mandating a living wage doesn't do that. It sends the message that we don't expect any more of you, you can keep dong whatever you're doing that wasn't working, we'll just give you what you need. And you especially don't do it by making someone else responsible for providing for your needs.

 

[JRK]

Bern is right that a federally mandated 'living wge', whatever that is, is NOT a conservative concept because it does not allow the free market to work and whenever you skew the free market in one place it has many other ripple effects.

Why should you have to pay Bacon Davis wages in order to bid on a federal job? It often substantially increases the cost of the contract on a labor intensive job and that cost everybody. Multiplied again and again across the country, it adds up to mega millions or billions in wasted taxes. Why is the prevailing wage of the area not sufficient? Of course your workers like the higher wage, but it comes at a cost to somebody else who had no say in the process.

Why not make certification of legal status of your employees a mandate and otherwise give the contract to the lowest bidder who can provide the product according to specifications? Would that not be better stewardship of the people's money?

I am not sure your reading my threads
bacon-davis wage act
let me help
The Davis–Bacon Act of 1931 is a United States federal law which established the requirement for paying prevailing wages on public works projects. All federal government construction contracts, and most contracts for federally assisted construction over $2,000, must include provisions for paying workers on-site no less than the locally prevailing wages and benefits paid on similar projects.
now can we start there?
It has done nothing to harm the free market, nothing
It has made it ultra competitive
You know exactly what tools you need
what is expected of you
etc.....

this is a real program that is a huge success

Okay I was remiss in my remarks. You are correct that Bacon Davis requires the prevailing wage. However, it is the Dept. of Labor who sets what that wage will be and lately it has mandated that the prevailing wage is union wages. And it is that which is hugely escalating costs. This depression era legislation was intended to keep government purchasing power from driving DOWN the value of labor in a community. Now it has the reverse effect, especially since the pro-union Obama administration took over.

One 'right to work' group has estimated the excess costs to the Tax Payers here:\

And while in a very few locations, the mandated Bacon Davis wages will be below the prevailing wages, in most cases it is the U.S. taxpayer who pays the difference.

The very first principle to be learned in government Economics 100:
You cannot use the people's money to benefit one person without taking money away from somebody else.

I kept being told a wage such as what Bacon Davis demands would destroy the free market, my intent was to use that would not be the case, using Bacon Davis as an example
Also its coming out of our pocket either way, thru taxation or as the consumer of the product that has paid a wage to supply it for us to consume
the only ones getting off free are the ones who are not making a living wage and the govt. is taking care of them
It is that principle you claim is econ 101 that is THE driving force of my presentation

We are using OPM to care for these people no matter

 

[JRK]

Not to speak for bern, but where did you ever get the idea that we conservatives were arguing for government to use taxpayer money to care for the poor. That really isn't any of the governments business and isn't even constitutional. There is a small minority of people who truely can not care for themselves and have no family that can care for them that needs a safety net. Beyond that, ending welfare would force those lazy 4th generation welfare folks to get off their ass and do something to actually support themselves. Now, if you think I am unempatehtic or unsympathetic, go back and read what I just said about the truely needy needing a safet net. The difference between you and me is in who the truely needy are. It isn't the people who have made bad choices in life that result in only being qualified for low paying jobs. There is no free lunch. Someone has to pay......and it should be the individual from the sweat of their own brow.

get off of the ass
make 17,000 a year
and we give them another 10-15 in welfare
works for me

you guys have missed this entire conversation so far I will never get you back, and it is very disturbing the 2 of you feel that employers have all of these rights and the employee has none
Yet I am stuck with the bill when it comes to paying there taxes, my taxes and those taxes ones who live in poverty are not paying. This problem has grown under Obama to a 600 billion dollar a year issue, all most the entire amount it cost us to liberate Iraq in dollars

Now you guys have made your points okay?
Let me give all 3 of you some advice

To resolve a problem, you have to understand it first
use the 5 whys, it works every time (Google it)
whats the problem? we are spending way to much in tax dollars towards well fare
how do we resolve it?
Get of of your lazy ass and work
7.75 an hour is way below a living wage according to the federal govt

Now what we do?

Programs using the guidelines (or percentage multiples of the guidelines — for instance, 125 percent or 185 percent of the guidelines) in determining eligibility include Head Start, the Food Stamp Program, the National School Lunch Program, the Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program, and the Children’s Health Insurance Program. Note that in general, cash public assistance programs (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families and Supplemental Security Income) do NOT use the poverty guidelines in determining eligibility. The Earned Income Tax Credit program also does NOT use the poverty guidelines to determine eligibility. For a more detailed list of programs that do and don’t use the guidelines, see the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs).

The poverty guidelines (unlike the poverty thresholds) are designated by the year in which they

they start @ about 11,000 for 1 @ 100% and go to about 19,000 with the 185%
You make 10.00 an hour, 1 person, your own your own

Now no need to respond to me, I have had all I need of this, you cannot be a success in life ignoring problems
My resolve was and is a free market resolution, may not see it that way, but leaving it alone its going to get worse
we were spending 50% of this n 07, we dbl down again it will be over 1 trillion dollars a year

Bullshit. Your "resolve" is a government mandated living wage. That my confused friend is not a free market "re"solution. Are you posting from a phone?

whats your solution?

 

[Foxfyre]

I am not sure your reading my threads
bacon-davis wage act
let me help
The Davis–Bacon Act of 1931 is a United States federal law which established the requirement for paying prevailing wages on public works projects. All federal government construction contracts, and most contracts for federally assisted construction over $2,000, must include provisions for paying workers on-site no less than the locally prevailing wages and benefits paid on similar projects.
now can we start there?
It has done nothing to harm the free market, nothing
It has made it ultra competitive
You know exactly what tools you need
what is expected of you
etc.....

this is a real program that is a huge success

Okay I was remiss in my remarks. You are correct that Bacon Davis requires the prevailing wage. However, it is the Dept. of Labor who sets what that wage will be and lately it has mandated that the prevailing wage is union wages. And it is that which is hugely escalating costs. This depression era legislation was intended to keep government purchasing power from driving DOWN the value of labor in a community. Now it has the reverse effect, especially since the pro-union Obama administration took over.

One 'right to work' group has estimated the excess costs to the Tax Payers here:\

And while in a very few locations, the mandated Bacon Davis wages will be below the prevailing wages, in most cases it is the U.S. taxpayer who pays the difference.

The very first principle to be learned in government Economics 100:
You cannot use the people's money to benefit one person without taking money away from somebody else.

I kept being told a wage such as what Bacon Davis demands would destroy the free market, my intent was to use that would not be the case, using Bacon Davis as an example
Also its coming out of our pocket either way, thru taxation or as the consumer of the product that has paid a wage to supply it for us to consume
the only ones getting off free are the ones who are not making a living wage and the govt. is taking care of them
It is that principle you claim is econ 101 that is THE driving force of my presentation

We are using OPM to care for these people no matter

Again the government is not 'taking care of people' by inflating the Bacon Davis prevailing wage to benefit the unions. All it currently does is ensure that there will be little or no competition for union shops and that the free market will not dictate the prevailing wage in the area.

Maybe you think it is okay for the government to take my money and give it to you so that you can have more.

I don't think it is okay for the government to do that.

It's as simple as that.

 

[JRK]

Bern I have an issue with people who argue for just the sake of arguing. It has been no less than 30 threads ago you made it clear to all of us the employer has rights, the employee has none

And I have an issue with people who knowingly lie about what I've said as you have here. I have NEVER said the employee has no rights. I have stated repeatedly there is A right that they don't have. The right you have been advocating for. You do NOT have a right to obligate your employer to pay enough for you to live on.

All I have done is offer a resolution to a problem that is costing the tax payers and the corporations in this country 100s of billions

And it is a piss poor solution. This is basically the scenario debating which is better; Do you teach a hungry man to fish or do you just give him the fish. Your solution amounts to just giving him the fish.

What else is there to talk about? Your a free market guy who wants the tax payer to keep dealing with poverty, that thinks people (100s of thousands of us) that are professionals need to go to N.D and get a job making 11.00 an hour, instead of doing what every-one else in my sector and go to Canada , Australia etc... until we get a real president in power

This has to be be the most ass backwards statement so far. You are railing against the free market, yet claiming to be a conservative while offering a liberal solution to a problem while wanting to get a liberal out of office. Do you really wonder why we're all starting to think you're really just bat shit crazy? the only proof I need that I'm right is the fact that you don't have the balls to directly answer or do anything I've asked you to. You won't directly answer why YOU are not responsible for providing for yourself and you apparently won't take me up on my dare to put your resume on career builder and tell me there are no jobs. What do I think the 100 thousands of you whiners are supposed to do? SOMETHING DIFFERENT. Stop the fucking whining. $11/hr is an example. Ever heard of one. They also need truck drivers in there too and they start out at about 90k a year. The point is there are places in this country with high labor demands spanning all kinds of skill levels from low pay to six figure pay.

Bern this country is in a very very bad place, poverty is an issue that also needs resolve Bern
your plan does nothing to resolve it, think about it

My 'plan' is for people like you to stop assuming anyone else owes you anything beyond your value to them. You sit there and wait for something to happen when the rest of the world is more concerned with meeting their own needs than yours and you have the balls to wonder why nothing changes for you? If it simply weren't possible for a person to change something or do something different in their lives to make more money, I would be inclined to agree with you. But the simple fact is the vast majority of people don't achieve their potential. There ARE things people can change in their lives to earn more and there ARE job openeings out there right now that pay living wages and more.

Poverty is an issue. But the best way to help people is to help them help themselves. Mandating a living wage doesn't do that. It sends the message that we don't expect any more of you, you can keep dong whatever you're doing that wasn't working, we'll just give you what you need. And you especially don't do it by making someone else responsible for providing for your needs.

Cannot find that thread in which you gave the employee the right to a wage that he could live by
You know the employer gets a wage also, you have no problem with him/her having a living wage, do you?
Truck driver? when did you wake up and think this issue was about me? and at what time did you think that a 16% UE rate could be fixed by the 10-20,000 truck driving jobs?
you keep digging bud and you will be to china

we have 6 million fewer people working today than in 2008,
nothing changes for me? when did I say i need some change?
dude I am in FINE SHAPE
I own 23 wonderful acres real close to the gulf of mexico
its paid for
my house is paid for
my trucks are paid for
I made over 500 in the stock market today alone, my salary and my 401 K probably made 2-300 today


help them selves? sure 7.75 an hour that is helping them
THATS GOING TO TRIGGER THE WELFARE WAGON

Okay, as i have been saying, you have made your point


what is your solution to this 600 billion dollar issue? dont say people get of of your ass, thats why its a 600 billion a year issue
whats your resolution?
use the 5 ways
learn something and stop attacking me

 

[Foxfyre]

It takes a few minutes to see this cartoon that was created in 1948. But it is a few minutes well spent for those who would give the government power to control what the free market should control. The truth of it is as pertinent today as it was 53 years ago:

National Juggernaut: This Cartoon Seemed Far-Fetched In 1948

Remember that Karl Marx was adament that the first goal to get us to utopia was to abolish all private property ownership. And that begins with government control of labor and the means of production.

 

[JRK]

It takes a few minutes to see this cartoon that was created in 1948. But it is a few minutes well spent for those who would give the government power to control what the free market should control. The truth of it is as pertinent today as it was 53 years ago:

National Juggernaut: This Cartoon Seemed Far-Fetched In 1948

Remember that Karl Marx was adament that the first goal to get us to utopia was to abolish all private property ownership. And that begins with government control of labor and the means of production.

GWB and BHO gave the UAW 80 billion dollars of tax payers wealth, gave it to them
BHO by passed all BK laws and gave GM and Chrysler to the UAW, for pennies on the dollar

He along with the dem controlled congress has put into place a health care reform bill that has mandated as I understand it private industry has to either supply ins or be fined if they do not for the private citizen

BHO is as we speak giving forgiveness for collage loans and is using tax payers dollars to help people keep there homes/pay the mortgages

And your claiming what we are talking about is I am advocating this event will take control of labor?
The federal govt has mandated that Corporate tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 339 billion dollars in corporate income shall be in the form of a tax in the year of our lord 2009 that will be collected to GIVE $360 billion - Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending as it is posted
and again my idea is a Karl Marx direction?
that number for 2010 is close 600 billion
$571 billion (+58.6%) – Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending

I have found a place some time ago with this that we can agree to dis agree. I just provided for you in a 2 year period close to 1 trillion dollars in welfare and govt take-overs of private sector businesses and my idea of a living wage is the real issue here?

Okay

 

[kwc57]

get off of the ass
make 17,000 a year
and we give them another 10-15 in welfare
works for me

you guys have missed this entire conversation so far I will never get you back, and it is very disturbing the 2 of you feel that employers have all of these rights and the employee has none
Yet I am stuck with the bill when it comes to paying there taxes, my taxes and those taxes ones who live in poverty are not paying. This problem has grown under Obama to a 600 billion dollar a year issue, all most the entire amount it cost us to liberate Iraq in dollars

Now you guys have made your points okay?
Let me give all 3 of you some advice

To resolve a problem, you have to understand it first
use the 5 whys, it works every time (Google it)
whats the problem? we are spending way to much in tax dollars towards well fare
how do we resolve it?
Get of of your lazy ass and work
7.75 an hour is way below a living wage according to the federal govt

Now what we do?

Programs using the guidelines (or percentage multiples of the guidelines — for instance, 125 percent or 185 percent of the guidelines) in determining eligibility include Head Start, the Food Stamp Program, the National School Lunch Program, the Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program, and the Children’s Health Insurance Program. Note that in general, cash public assistance programs (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families and Supplemental Security Income) do NOT use the poverty guidelines in determining eligibility. The Earned Income Tax Credit program also does NOT use the poverty guidelines to determine eligibility. For a more detailed list of programs that do and don’t use the guidelines, see the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs).

The poverty guidelines (unlike the poverty thresholds) are designated by the year in which they

they start @ about 11,000 for 1 @ 100% and go to about 19,000 with the 185%
You make 10.00 an hour, 1 person, your own your own

Now no need to respond to me, I have had all I need of this, you cannot be a success in life ignoring problems
My resolve was and is a free market resolution, may not see it that way, but leaving it alone its going to get worse
we were spending 50% of this n 07, we dbl down again it will be over 1 trillion dollars a year

Bullshit. Your "resolve" is a government mandated living wage. That my confused friend is not a free market "re"solution. Are you posting from a phone?

whats your solution?

Stated numerous times over the last 750 posts, but you dismiss it.

 

[Foxfyre]

It takes a few minutes to see this cartoon that was created in 1948. But it is a few minutes well spent for those who would give the government power to control what the free market should control. The truth of it is as pertinent today as it was 53 years ago:

National Juggernaut: This Cartoon Seemed Far-Fetched In 1948

Remember that Karl Marx was adament that the first goal to get us to utopia was to abolish all private property ownership. And that begins with government control of labor and the means of production.

GWB and BHO gave the UAW 80 billion dollars of tax payers wealth, gave it to them
BHO by passed all BK laws and gave GM and Chrysler to the UAW, for pennies on the dollar

He along with the dem controlled congress has put into place a health care reform bill that has mandated as I understand it private industry has to either supply ins or be fined if they do not for the private citizen

BHO is as we speak giving forgiveness for collage loans and is using tax payers dollars to help people keep there homes/pay the mortgages

And your claiming what we are talking about is I am advocating this event will take control of labor?
The federal govt has mandated that Corporate tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 339 billion dollars in corporate income shall be in the form of a tax in the year of our lord 2009 that will be collected to GIVE $360 billion - Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending as it is posted
and again my idea is a Karl Marx direction?
that number for 2010 is close 600 billion
$571 billion (+58.6%) – Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending

I have found a place some time ago with this that we can agree to dis agree. I just provided for you in a 2 year period close to 1 trillion dollars in welfare and govt take-overs of private sector businesses and my idea of a living wage is the real issue here?

Okay

The fact that there are other issues--and you are right there are MANY other issues--but this thread is devoted to one: a living wage.

And trying to deflect away from legitimate observations about that by bringing in everything else just won't fly with me. I like to debate one issue at a time.

You can be 100% virtuous, correct, noble, and patriotic about every other issue in the world and still be wrong about the issue being discussed. And I am arguing my point of view that a government mandated or provided living wage is far more destructive and harmful than any benefit that might come from it.

 

[kwc57]

Bern I have an issue with people who argue for just the sake of arguing. It has been no less than 30 threads ago you made it clear to all of us the employer has rights, the employee has none

And I have an issue with people who knowingly lie about what I've said as you have here. I have NEVER said the employee has no rights. I have stated repeatedly there is A right that they don't have. The right you have been advocating for. You do NOT have a right to obligate your employer to pay enough for you to live on.



And it is a piss poor solution. This is basically the scenario debating which is better; Do you teach a hungry man to fish or do you just give him the fish. Your solution amounts to just giving him the fish.



This has to be be the most ass backwards statement so far. You are railing against the free market, yet claiming to be a conservative while offering a liberal solution to a problem while wanting to get a liberal out of office. Do you really wonder why we're all starting to think you're really just bat shit crazy? the only proof I need that I'm right is the fact that you don't have the balls to directly answer or do anything I've asked you to. You won't directly answer why YOU are not responsible for providing for yourself and you apparently won't take me up on my dare to put your resume on career builder and tell me there are no jobs. What do I think the 100 thousands of you whiners are supposed to do? SOMETHING DIFFERENT. Stop the fucking whining. $11/hr is an example. Ever heard of one. They also need truck drivers in there too and they start out at about 90k a year. The point is there are places in this country with high labor demands spanning all kinds of skill levels from low pay to six figure pay.

Bern this country is in a very very bad place, poverty is an issue that also needs resolve Bern
your plan does nothing to resolve it, think about it

My 'plan' is for people like you to stop assuming anyone else owes you anything beyond your value to them. You sit there and wait for something to happen when the rest of the world is more concerned with meeting their own needs than yours and you have the balls to wonder why nothing changes for you? If it simply weren't possible for a person to change something or do something different in their lives to make more money, I would be inclined to agree with you. But the simple fact is the vast majority of people don't achieve their potential. There ARE things people can change in their lives to earn more and there ARE job openeings out there right now that pay living wages and more.

Poverty is an issue. But the best way to help people is to help them help themselves. Mandating a living wage doesn't do that. It sends the message that we don't expect any more of you, you can keep dong whatever you're doing that wasn't working, we'll just give you what you need. And you especially don't do it by making someone else responsible for providing for your needs.

Cannot find that thread in which you gave the employee the right to a wage that he could live by
You know the employer gets a wage also, you have no problem with him/her having a living wage, do you?
Truck driver? when did you wake up and think this issue was about me? and at what time did you think that a 16% UE rate could be fixed by the 10-20,000 truck driving jobs?
you keep digging bud and you will be to china

we have 6 million fewer people working today than in 2008,
nothing changes for me? when did I say i need some change?
dude I am in FINE SHAPE
I own 23 wonderful acres real close to the gulf of mexico
its paid for
my house is paid for
my trucks are paid for
I made over 500 in the stock market today alone, my salary and my 401 K probably made 2-300 today


help them selves? sure 7.75 an hour that is helping them
THATS GOING TO TRIGGER THE WELFARE WAGON

Okay, as i have been saying, you have made your point


what is your solution to this 600 billion dollar issue? dont say people get of of your ass, thats why its a 600 billion a year issue
whats your resolution?
use the 5 ways
learn something and stop attacking me

Did you reach your level of success in life because the government forced an employer to pay you more than the job you were doing was worth? If not, how did you accomplish it?

 

[JRK]

And I have an issue with people who knowingly lie about what I've said as you have here. I have NEVER said the employee has no rights. I have stated repeatedly there is A right that they don't have. The right you have been advocating for. You do NOT have a right to obligate your employer to pay enough for you to live on.



And it is a piss poor solution. This is basically the scenario debating which is better; Do you teach a hungry man to fish or do you just give him the fish. Your solution amounts to just giving him the fish.



This has to be be the most ass backwards statement so far. You are railing against the free market, yet claiming to be a conservative while offering a liberal solution to a problem while wanting to get a liberal out of office. Do you really wonder why we're all starting to think you're really just bat shit crazy? the only proof I need that I'm right is the fact that you don't have the balls to directly answer or do anything I've asked you to. You won't directly answer why YOU are not responsible for providing for yourself and you apparently won't take me up on my dare to put your resume on career builder and tell me there are no jobs. What do I think the 100 thousands of you whiners are supposed to do? SOMETHING DIFFERENT. Stop the fucking whining. $11/hr is an example. Ever heard of one. They also need truck drivers in there too and they start out at about 90k a year. The point is there are places in this country with high labor demands spanning all kinds of skill levels from low pay to six figure pay.




My 'plan' is for people like you to stop assuming anyone else owes you anything beyond your value to them. You sit there and wait for something to happen when the rest of the world is more concerned with meeting their own needs than yours and you have the balls to wonder why nothing changes for you? If it simply weren't possible for a person to change something or do something different in their lives to make more money, I would be inclined to agree with you. But the simple fact is the vast majority of people don't achieve their potential. There ARE things people can change in their lives to earn more and there ARE job openeings out there right now that pay living wages and more.

Poverty is an issue. But the best way to help people is to help them help themselves. Mandating a living wage doesn't do that. It sends the message that we don't expect any more of you, you can keep dong whatever you're doing that wasn't working, we'll just give you what you need. And you especially don't do it by making someone else responsible for providing for your needs.

Cannot find that thread in which you gave the employee the right to a wage that he could live by
You know the employer gets a wage also, you have no problem with him/her having a living wage, do you?
Truck driver? when did you wake up and think this issue was about me? and at what time did you think that a 16% UE rate could be fixed by the 10-20,000 truck driving jobs?
you keep digging bud and you will be to china

we have 6 million fewer people working today than in 2008,
nothing changes for me? when did I say i need some change?
dude I am in FINE SHAPE
I own 23 wonderful acres real close to the gulf of mexico
its paid for
my house is paid for
my trucks are paid for
I made over 500 in the stock market today alone, my salary and my 401 K probably made 2-300 today


help them selves? sure 7.75 an hour that is helping them
THATS GOING TO TRIGGER THE WELFARE WAGON

Okay, as i have been saying, you have made your point


what is your solution to this 600 billion dollar issue? dont say people get of of your ass, thats why its a 600 billion a year issue
whats your resolution?
use the 5 ways
learn something and stop attacking me

Did you reach your level of success in life because the government forced an employer to pay you more than the job you were doing was worth? If not, how did you accomplish it?

I left my birth place
Again you claimed you had a solution 600 post ago, I cannot find it

 

[kwc57]

It takes a few minutes to see this cartoon that was created in 1948. But it is a few minutes well spent for those who would give the government power to control what the free market should control. The truth of it is as pertinent today as it was 53 years ago:

National Juggernaut: This Cartoon Seemed Far-Fetched In 1948

Remember that Karl Marx was adament that the first goal to get us to utopia was to abolish all private property ownership. And that begins with government control of labor and the means of production.

GWB and BHO gave the UAW 80 billion dollars of tax payers wealth, gave it to them
BHO by passed all BK laws and gave GM and Chrysler to the UAW, for pennies on the dollar

He along with the dem controlled congress has put into place a health care reform bill that has mandated as I understand it private industry has to either supply ins or be fined if they do not for the private citizen

BHO is as we speak giving forgiveness for collage loans and is using tax payers dollars to help people keep there homes/pay the mortgages

And your claiming what we are talking about is I am advocating this event will take control of labor?
The federal govt has mandated that Corporate tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 339 billion dollars in corporate income shall be in the form of a tax in the year of our lord 2009 that will be collected to GIVE $360 billion - Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending as it is posted
and again my idea is a Karl Marx direction?
that number for 2010 is close 600 billion
$571 billion (+58.6%) – Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending

I have found a place some time ago with this that we can agree to dis agree. I just provided for you in a 2 year period close to 1 trillion dollars in welfare and govt take-overs of private sector businesses and my idea of a living wage is the real issue here?

Okay

OK, wait! You bitch about all of those government programs and interferrence out of one side of your mouth while endorsing a government program and interferrence of mandating a living wage that employers are forced to pay out of the other side of your mouth. Am I in the twilight zone here? Get a grip man!

 

[kwc57]

Cannot find that thread in which you gave the employee the right to a wage that he could live by
You know the employer gets a wage also, you have no problem with him/her having a living wage, do you?
Truck driver? when did you wake up and think this issue was about me? and at what time did you think that a 16% UE rate could be fixed by the 10-20,000 truck driving jobs?
you keep digging bud and you will be to china

we have 6 million fewer people working today than in 2008,
nothing changes for me? when did I say i need some change?
dude I am in FINE SHAPE
I own 23 wonderful acres real close to the gulf of mexico
its paid for
my house is paid for
my trucks are paid for
I made over 500 in the stock market today alone, my salary and my 401 K probably made 2-300 today


help them selves? sure 7.75 an hour that is helping them
THATS GOING TO TRIGGER THE WELFARE WAGON

Okay, as i have been saying, you have made your point


what is your solution to this 600 billion dollar issue? dont say people get of of your ass, thats why its a 600 billion a year issue
whats your resolution?
use the 5 ways
learn something and stop attacking me

Did you reach your level of success in life because the government forced an employer to pay you more than the job you were doing was worth? If not, how did you accomplish it?

I left my birth place
Again you claimed you had a solution 600 post ago, I cannot find it

Then you aren't looking hard enough. Keep digging.

 

[kwc57]

Cannot find that thread in which you gave the employee the right to a wage that he could live by
You know the employer gets a wage also, you have no problem with him/her having a living wage, do you?
Truck driver? when did you wake up and think this issue was about me? and at what time did you think that a 16% UE rate could be fixed by the 10-20,000 truck driving jobs?
you keep digging bud and you will be to china

we have 6 million fewer people working today than in 2008,
nothing changes for me? when did I say i need some change?
dude I am in FINE SHAPE
I own 23 wonderful acres real close to the gulf of mexico
its paid for
my house is paid for
my trucks are paid for
I made over 500 in the stock market today alone, my salary and my 401 K probably made 2-300 today


help them selves? sure 7.75 an hour that is helping them
THATS GOING TO TRIGGER THE WELFARE WAGON

Okay, as i have been saying, you have made your point


what is your solution to this 600 billion dollar issue? dont say people get of of your ass, thats why its a 600 billion a year issue
whats your resolution?
use the 5 ways
learn something and stop attacking me

Did you reach your level of success in life because the government forced an employer to pay you more than the job you were doing was worth? If not, how did you accomplish it?

I left my birth place
Again you claimed you had a solution 600 post ago, I cannot find it

You left your birth place and...........

 

[Bern80]

Cannot find that thread in which you gave the employee the right to a wage that he could live by

Because I never did. Now you're just being dishonest or you really are incredibly stupid to not be able to see that a right to a living wage an no rights at all are two very different things.

You know the employer gets a wage also, you have no problem with him/her having a living wage, do you?

I have no problem with people being compensated for the value of their work. unfortunately this seems to be a horribly difficult concept for you to grasp

Truck driver? when did you wake up and think this issue was about me? and at what time did you think that a 16% UE rate could be fixed by the 10-20,000 truck driving jobs?
you keep digging bud and you will be to china

This really is usless when you're going to try to play dumb about everything I say. The point, once again, is there is a labor demand out there. The only thing standing in anyone's way is what their willing to sacrifice for it.

help them selves? sure 7.75 an hour that is helping them
THATS GOING TO TRIGGER THE WELFARE WAGON

Complaining about not making enough and insisting your employer is the one who needs to pay you more to fix that is NOT helping yourself. That is insisting that someone else fix your problem. If $7.75 isn't enough you help yourself by figuring out what jobs are paying a living wage and where the demand for the is.

what is your solution to this 600 billion dollar issue? dont say people get of of your ass, thats why its a 600 billion a year issue
whats your resolution?
use the 5 ways
learn something and stop attacking me

Are all of those people on welfare on welfare because they simply can not do any more to earn more? You're a bigger liar than I though you answer yes to that. It isn't a get off your ass solution so to speak. There are plenty of people who work hard for little money. The problem is these people and you apparently don't get whY you are being compensated. You are not being compensated based on what you need and you are not being compensated based on how hard you work. You are being compensated based on your value to your employer. Your value is dependent on the scarcity and demand of your skills. If all you have for skills is something pretty much anyone else can do making you easily replaceable, then you are not going to and have no reason to expect that you're going to make much money. Probably less than what a person can live on. Here is the solution: Make yourself more valuable. Acquire skills that are scarce and/or in demand and making a living wage will not be an issue for you. Problem solved.

 

[JRK]

It takes a few minutes to see this cartoon that was created in 1948. But it is a few minutes well spent for those who would give the government power to control what the free market should control. The truth of it is as pertinent today as it was 53 years ago:

National Juggernaut: This Cartoon Seemed Far-Fetched In 1948

Remember that Karl Marx was adament that the first goal to get us to utopia was to abolish all private property ownership. And that begins with government control of labor and the means of production.

GWB and BHO gave the UAW 80 billion dollars of tax payers wealth, gave it to them
BHO by passed all BK laws and gave GM and Chrysler to the UAW, for pennies on the dollar

He along with the dem controlled congress has put into place a health care reform bill that has mandated as I understand it private industry has to either supply ins or be fined if they do not for the private citizen

BHO is as we speak giving forgiveness for collage loans and is using tax payers dollars to help people keep there homes/pay the mortgages

And your claiming what we are talking about is I am advocating this event will take control of labor?
The federal govt has mandated that Corporate tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 339 billion dollars in corporate income shall be in the form of a tax in the year of our lord 2009 that will be collected to GIVE $360 billion - Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending as it is posted
and again my idea is a Karl Marx direction?
that number for 2010 is close 600 billion
$571 billion (+58.6%) – Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending

I have found a place some time ago with this that we can agree to dis agree. I just provided for you in a 2 year period close to 1 trillion dollars in welfare and govt take-overs of private sector businesses and my idea of a living wage is the real issue here?

Okay

The fact that there are other issues--and you are right there are MANY other issues--but this thread is devoted to one: a living wage.

And trying to deflect away from legitimate observations about that by bringing in everything else just won't fly with me. I like to debate one issue at a time.

You can be 100% virtuous, correct, noble, and patriotic about every other issue in the world and still be wrong about the issue being discussed. And I am arguing my point of view that a government mandated or provided living wage is far more destructive and harmful than any benefit that might come from it.

This not about 1 issue, it is about deficits
it is about entitlement programs
It is about tax rates
It is about what you think is the govt going to far with Joe the plumber so Joe the Plumber and all of his employees who make a living wage can pitch in enough to cover that 600 billion dollars so those who do not make a living wage can get part of that 600 billion, actually its closer to 1.2 trillion if we kick in Medicare
cant you see that?
look how serious this issue really is, are we talking the less of 2 evils here?

 

[JRK]

Did you reach your level of success in life because the government forced an employer to pay you more than the job you were doing was worth? If not, how did you accomplish it?

I left my birth place
Again you claimed you had a solution 600 post ago, I cannot find it

You left your birth place and...........

That is it
studied my trade
went and took some night classes
self taught my self with cadd and some data collection software
I am not the problem

 

[kwc57]

GWB and BHO gave the UAW 80 billion dollars of tax payers wealth, gave it to them
BHO by passed all BK laws and gave GM and Chrysler to the UAW, for pennies on the dollar

He along with the dem controlled congress has put into place a health care reform bill that has mandated as I understand it private industry has to either supply ins or be fined if they do not for the private citizen

BHO is as we speak giving forgiveness for collage loans and is using tax payers dollars to help people keep there homes/pay the mortgages

And your claiming what we are talking about is I am advocating this event will take control of labor?
The federal govt has mandated that Corporate tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 339 billion dollars in corporate income shall be in the form of a tax in the year of our lord 2009 that will be collected to GIVE $360 billion - Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending as it is posted
and again my idea is a Karl Marx direction?
that number for 2010 is close 600 billion
$571 billion (+58.6%) – Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending

I have found a place some time ago with this that we can agree to dis agree. I just provided for you in a 2 year period close to 1 trillion dollars in welfare and govt take-overs of private sector businesses and my idea of a living wage is the real issue here?

Okay

The fact that there are other issues--and you are right there are MANY other issues--but this thread is devoted to one: a living wage.

And trying to deflect away from legitimate observations about that by bringing in everything else just won't fly with me. I like to debate one issue at a time.

You can be 100% virtuous, correct, noble, and patriotic about every other issue in the world and still be wrong about the issue being discussed. And I am arguing my point of view that a government mandated or provided living wage is far more destructive and harmful than any benefit that might come from it.

This not about 1 issue, it is about deficits
it is about entitlement programs
It is about tax rates
It is about what you think is the govt going to far with Joe the plumber so Joe the Plumber and all of his employees who make a living wage can pitch in enough to cover that 600 billion dollars so those who do not make a living wage can get part of that 600 billion, actually its closer to 1.2 trillion if we kick in Medicare
cant you see that?
look how serious this issue really is, are we talking the less of 2 evils here?

Oh my, moving the goalposts are we?

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