F35 - superfighter or lame duck?

[DrainBamage]

I thought the venerable F-4 made it into the 1990s in the Wild Weasel role?

Yep, last one was retired in 1996.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The cost of the F-35A just dropped below 90 Mil.

 

[westwall]

The F-4 was adequate for its time, but its exhaust was it's main downfall. No one wants to fly a combat aircraft with a big black line leading to it.

The F-4 was a serious contender all the way up till it was retired. In the hands of a capable pilot it could match nearly aircraft out there. I watched one wax TWO F-18s in a fight over Owens Valley back in the day.

View attachment 218927 View attachment 218928

The later upgrades to the F-4 got rid of the smoking trails it was famous for. Plus, the slatted E made it into a great turn and burn fighter. Until the F-15 was ironed out, there really wasn't anything out there as good as the F-4 as a multirole fighter or an interceptor. Thinkof this, it took 2 Fighters to take over the jobs that the F-4 was doing. That says loads just how good the F-4 was in the 70s. But by 1980, the F-15 and the F-16 came into their own and the F-4s day was done. I was heartbroken when they turned them into Target Drones. Not the way for such a proud bird to go out.

Now, it's the F-16s day that will end sooner than later. When they get the number of F-35s in service, I suspect that the F-16s will meet the same fate. The F-15 will make it a bit longer as there is nothing out there in enough numbers to replace them as of this time. But it's going to happen. We just don't know what that will be yet.

I thought the venerable F-4 made it into the 1990s in the Wild Weasel role?

They did. There were a couple of squadrons of F-4G's used in Desert Storm. One was lost due to enemy fire. It ran out of gas because its fuel tanks had been holed.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The F-4 was adequate for its time, but its exhaust was it's main downfall. No one wants to fly a combat aircraft with a big black line leading to it.

The F-4 was a serious contender all the way up till it was retired. In the hands of a capable pilot it could match nearly aircraft out there. I watched one wax TWO F-18s in a fight over Owens Valley back in the day.

View attachment 218927 View attachment 218928

The later upgrades to the F-4 got rid of the smoking trails it was famous for. Plus, the slatted E made it into a great turn and burn fighter. Until the F-15 was ironed out, there really wasn't anything out there as good as the F-4 as a multirole fighter or an interceptor. Thinkof this, it took 2 Fighters to take over the jobs that the F-4 was doing. That says loads just how good the F-4 was in the 70s. But by 1980, the F-15 and the F-16 came into their own and the F-4s day was done. I was heartbroken when they turned them into Target Drones. Not the way for such a proud bird to go out.

Now, it's the F-16s day that will end sooner than later. When they get the number of F-35s in service, I suspect that the F-16s will meet the same fate. The F-15 will make it a bit longer as there is nothing out there in enough numbers to replace them as of this time. But it's going to happen. We just don't know what that will be yet.

I thought the venerable F-4 made it into the 1990s in the Wild Weasel role?

They did. There were a couple of squadrons of F-4G's used in Desert Storm. One was lost due to enemy fire. It ran out of gas because its fuel tanks had been holed.

The original F-16 WWs just used the boxes from the F-4G. It was a poormans WW. It wasn't until later that the boxes were made specifically for the F-16 that the F-16 WW came into it's own.

 

[DrainBamage]

Left unsaid so far is what will become of the 81 F-35s purchased by the Marine Corps and Navy during that same period. If they are left in their current state, nearly 200 F-35s might permanently remain unready for combat because the Pentagon would rather buy new aircraft than upgrade the ones the American people have already paid for.

That is a lot of money to spend on training jets and aircraft that will simply be stripped for spare parts. 108 F-35s Will Not Be Combat Capable | RealClearDefense
How not to do it.......40 billion in useable junk.......gee that 3-4 carriers ......20 or more Virginia Subs.......,.gee why dont we have any money

And yet another of your posts about the F-35 program turns out to be wrong, DoD has announced they will be upgrading ALL F-35s to the Block 3F full war fighting capability standard. We'll classify this one in same category as your "OMG F-35C in trouble!" claptrap from last year where they fixed what you tried to portray as end-of-program problem with the Navy version by simply adjusting the tension bar.

F-35s Behind, Line Needs More Automation; Services Plan to Mod Early Jets
"Program Executive Officer Vice Adm. Mat Winter also said the military services have decided to upgrade all their existing jets to the Block 3 standard, but have not yet decided if they will eventually mod all their jets to a Block 4 configuration."

We see from your post how you purposely spin things, you start with a "might" because there is no solid information on their plan, but by the end are already lamenting how they will be stripped for parts. Seamlessly from speculation to presentation of false information. This is why the forum wonders... have you ever been right about anything in this thread? Like, ever?

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Left unsaid so far is what will become of the 81 F-35s purchased by the Marine Corps and Navy during that same period. If they are left in their current state, nearly 200 F-35s might permanently remain unready for combat because the Pentagon would rather buy new aircraft than upgrade the ones the American people have already paid for.

That is a lot of money to spend on training jets and aircraft that will simply be stripped for spare parts. 108 F-35s Will Not Be Combat Capable | RealClearDefense
How not to do it.......40 billion in useable junk.......gee that 3-4 carriers ......20 or more Virginia Subs.......,.gee why dont we have any money

And yet another of your posts about the F-35 program turns out to be wrong, DoD has announced they will be upgrading ALL F-35s to the Block 3F full war fighting capability standard. We'll classify this one in same category as your "OMG F-35C in trouble!" claptrap from last year where they fixed what you tried to portray as end-of-program problem with the Navy version by simply adjusting the tension bar.

F-35s Behind, Line Needs More Automation; Services Plan to Mod Early Jets
"Program Executive Officer Vice Adm. Mat Winter also said the military services have decided to upgrade all their existing jets to the Block 3 standard, but have not yet decided if they will eventually mod all their jets to a Block 4 configuration."

We see from your post how you purposely spin things, you start with a "might" because there is no solid information on their plan, but by the end are already lamenting how they will be stripped for parts. Seamlessly from speculation to presentation of false information. This is why the forum wonders... have you ever been right about anything in this thread? Like, ever?

Monobreath is part right. Some of the103 will be used for parts while others will be used for training. These will not get the upgrades. Some of the later test birds will be prepped for service and get the upgrades. Some will be kept for texting and training. The exact number starts out as 103. I don't know where he gets the figure of 108 but I bet it was painful pulling it out of there. The Powers that Be haven't announced the exact figures and probably won't. Well, at least to those as lowly as we are.

 

[Manonthestreet]

The cost of the F-35A just dropped below 90 Mil.

Something that would have happened with F-22....much better plane.

 

[Manonthestreet]

Left unsaid so far is what will become of the 81 F-35s purchased by the Marine Corps and Navy during that same period. If they are left in their current state, nearly 200 F-35s might permanently remain unready for combat because the Pentagon would rather buy new aircraft than upgrade the ones the American people have already paid for.

That is a lot of money to spend on training jets and aircraft that will simply be stripped for spare parts. 108 F-35s Will Not Be Combat Capable | RealClearDefense
How not to do it.......40 billion in useable junk.......gee that 3-4 carriers ......20 or more Virginia Subs.......,.gee why dont we have any money

And yet another of your posts about the F-35 program turns out to be wrong, DoD has announced they will be upgrading ALL F-35s to the Block 3F full war fighting capability standard. We'll classify this one in same category as your "OMG F-35C in trouble!" claptrap from last year where they fixed what you tried to portray as end-of-program problem with the Navy version by simply adjusting the tension bar.

F-35s Behind, Line Needs More Automation; Services Plan to Mod Early Jets
"Program Executive Officer Vice Adm. Mat Winter also said the military services have decided to upgrade all their existing jets to the Block 3 standard, but have not yet decided if they will eventually mod all their jets to a Block 4 configuration."

We see from your post how you purposely spin things, you start with a "might" because there is no solid information on their plan, but by the end are already lamenting how they will be stripped for parts. Seamlessly from speculation to presentation of false information. This is why the forum wonders... have you ever been right about anything in this thread? Like, ever?

Monobreath is part right. Some of the103 will be used for parts while others will be used for training. These will not get the upgrades. Some of the later test birds will be prepped for service and get the upgrades. Some will be kept for texting and training. The exact number starts out as 103. I don't know where he gets the figure of 108 but I bet it was painful pulling it out of there. The Powers that Be haven't announced the exact figures and probably won't. Well, at least to those as lowly as we are.

First I'm wrong then I'm mostly right.....LLMMAAOOO what a couple of clowns

 

[Manonthestreet]

Still not hitting production levels...ooooops….

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The cost of the F-35A just dropped below 90 Mil.

Something that would have happened with F-22....much better plane.

The F-22 was designed starting in the late 80s and into the 90s. It was cutting edge and very expensive. There were features that had never been done before and cost out the wazzoo. Even it's Avionics was space age and out of this world for the time. The best they could get the F-22 down to was 135mil a copy. That was what the last batch would have cost. They took what they learned from the F-22 and applied it to the F-35 with the ability to adapt to many different missions and the cost started out for the A model at about what the low ball cost for the F-22 was but it's now down to less than 90 mil. That's not much above a full featured F-16 and 20 mil cheaper than a new F-15. And the only bird the F-35 can't smoke is the F-22. And even on that I am not that sure of since they would never announce it one way or another.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Left unsaid so far is what will become of the 81 F-35s purchased by the Marine Corps and Navy during that same period. If they are left in their current state, nearly 200 F-35s might permanently remain unready for combat because the Pentagon would rather buy new aircraft than upgrade the ones the American people have already paid for.

That is a lot of money to spend on training jets and aircraft that will simply be stripped for spare parts. 108 F-35s Will Not Be Combat Capable | RealClearDefense
How not to do it.......40 billion in useable junk.......gee that 3-4 carriers ......20 or more Virginia Subs.......,.gee why dont we have any money

And yet another of your posts about the F-35 program turns out to be wrong, DoD has announced they will be upgrading ALL F-35s to the Block 3F full war fighting capability standard. We'll classify this one in same category as your "OMG F-35C in trouble!" claptrap from last year where they fixed what you tried to portray as end-of-program problem with the Navy version by simply adjusting the tension bar.

F-35s Behind, Line Needs More Automation; Services Plan to Mod Early Jets
"Program Executive Officer Vice Adm. Mat Winter also said the military services have decided to upgrade all their existing jets to the Block 3 standard, but have not yet decided if they will eventually mod all their jets to a Block 4 configuration."

We see from your post how you purposely spin things, you start with a "might" because there is no solid information on their plan, but by the end are already lamenting how they will be stripped for parts. Seamlessly from speculation to presentation of false information. This is why the forum wonders... have you ever been right about anything in this thread? Like, ever?

Monobreath is part right. Some of the103 will be used for parts while others will be used for training. These will not get the upgrades. Some of the later test birds will be prepped for service and get the upgrades. Some will be kept for texting and training. The exact number starts out as 103. I don't know where he gets the figure of 108 but I bet it was painful pulling it out of there. The Powers that Be haven't announced the exact figures and probably won't. Well, at least to those as lowly as we are.

First I'm wrong then I'm mostly right.....LLMMAAOOO what a couple of clowns

I didn't say "Mostly". I said partially. Take off the welding glasses and read it again.

 

[DrainBamage]

Something that would have happened with F-22....much better plane.

F-22 is a better air superiority fighter.

F-35 is a better multi-role fighter bomber, and the second best air superiority fighter in the world.

Your conclusions aren't surprising since you're stupid enough to believe fighters fly combat missions in totally clean configurations and every Russian jet spends it's lifetime at 60k feet on full afterburners.

 

[DrainBamage]

I didn't say "Mostly". I said partially. Take off the welding glasses and read it again.

He was completely wrong, they have clearly stated they are upgrading all existing F-35s to block 3F.

What is unknown is how many of those will go to block 4.

 

[DrainBamage]

And the only bird the F-35 can't smoke is the F-22. And even on that I am not that sure of since they would never announce it one way or another.

I think at BVR it's a tossup. They both have great AESA radars and passive RF sensors but F-35 has much better 360 degree IR and electro-optical, better sensor fusion, and stronger electronic attack capabilities. F-35s are also networked better, a group of four all see the sum of the battle field from the sensors of the others which makes for really interesting tactics with some flying passive while one is active RF with radar in LPI.

WVR it's F-22 all the way, only advantage, it's far more powerful and agile. F-35 has an advantage with helmet cued AIM-9X but they would have to be carried externally thus affecting performance. Unless of course we go in Manonthestreet's child-like view of air combat where planes can carry drop tanks and 8 big missiles but have zero kinematic penalties, but we'll leave that fantasy world to the king of echo chamber blog links.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

And the only bird the F-35 can't smoke is the F-22. And even on that I am not that sure of since they would never announce it one way or another.

I think at BVR it's a tossup. They both have great AESA radars and passive RF sensors but F-35 has much better 360 degree IR and electro-optical, better sensor fusion, and stronger electronic attack capabilities. F-35s are also networked better, a group of four all see the sum of the battle field from the sensors of the others which makes for really interesting tactics with some flying passive while one is active RF with radar in LPI.

WVR it's F-22 all the way, only advantage, it's far more powerful and agile. F-35 has an advantage with helmet cued AIM-9X but they would have to be carried externally thus affecting performance. Unless of course we go in Manonthestreet's child-like view of air combat where planes can carry drop tanks and 8 big missiles but have zero kinematic penalties, but we'll leave that fantasy world to the king of echo chamber blog links.

Using the Link 16, the F-22s are also linked. The only downside is, they can't receive info from other types of AC like the F-35 and the F-15E. But the F-35 can receive the information from the F-22. But in the mock battle, let's just say that the F-35 can't use the Link 16 and the F-22 can. The F-22 has the more powerful radar since it has more than a foot larger radome. And yes, size does matter no matter what the song says. At the range that the F-22 will first pick up the F-35 (let's just say for argument sake, it's 35 miles) all the other sensors on the F-35 will not have picked up the F-22 quite yet. But let's just say at mile 33, the F-35 picks up the F-22. The F-22 should have a 2 mile buffer to launch or battle plan. For BVR, the F-22 just barely beats out the F-35. But at WVR, the F-22 should eat the F-35s lunch as it's only as good as the F-16 or the F-18 at that point.

Not other Aircraft may apply to this fight as they will be picked up and fired on right around 80 miles beyond where their detection can have any hope of seeing either the F-35 or the F-22. Occasionally, the F-15E gets to play but he has some might good avionics himself with long ranged weapons and can turn and burn with the best. The F-15E just has to get past the initial closing with the F-22 and the F-35 getting to fire first. But remember, in order to fire that Aim-120D, you have to turn on your Radar and that hangs a huge "Hey, Over Here" sign around your neck.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Something that would have happened with F-22....much better plane.

F-22 is a better air superiority fighter.

F-35 is a better multi-role fighter bomber, and the second best air superiority fighter in the world.

Your conclusions aren't surprising since you're stupid enough to believe fighters fly combat missions in totally clean configurations and every Russian jet spends it's lifetime at 60k feet on full afterburners.

You left off.........And Plenty of Gas at all times.

 

[there4eyeM]

The very concept of 'manned' ('personned?) fighters is passé.
Small, many and cheap is the way to go.
Much faster, much more maneuverable, much cheaper remote controlled aircraft without fragile pilots on board should be the rule. As they are not 'sexy' and easy to present to lobbied legislators, we continue to get old way thinking shoved onto us, and our taxes.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The very concept of 'manned' ('personned?) fighters is passé.
Small, many and cheap is the way to go.
Much faster, much more maneuverable, much cheaper remote controlled aircraft without fragile pilots on board should be the rule. As they are not 'sexy' and easy to present to lobbied legislators, we continue to get old way thinking shoved onto us, and our taxes.

You are behind the curve on this one. The F-35 as of Block 4 has the capability to control a swarm of drones both recon and armed. But the problem with a armed drone controlled by a human is that it's too easy to jam and be rendered useless. At some point you are going to need the Human Pilot on the scene which you can't jam. You may be able to jam his systems but you can never jam the man.

 

[there4eyeM]

Humans are very fragile.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Humans are very fragile.

And even more fragile when you get hit by an out of control armed drone right on the top of your little pumpkin head.