F35 - superfighter or lame duck?

[Daryl Hunt]

`
Meanwhile; All US F-35s grounded worldwide (Oct 11, 2018) - The Pentagon announced Thursday it is grounding its entire fleet of F-35s, just days after the first crash of an F-35B led investigators to suspect there is a widespread problem with the advanced fighter’s fuel tubes. “The U.S. Services and international partners have temporarily suspended F-35 flight operations while the enterprise conducts a fleet-wide inspection of a fuel tube within the engine on all F-35 aircraft,” the F-35 Joint Program Office announced in a statement Thursday morning.
`

The F-35B was not grounded. So not ALL were grounded. The B model uses an engine slightly different than the A and the C and might have had a different fuel tube.

 

[DrainBamage]

Your missile comes off just like it was designed to. It tracks just fine. Until it get within 20 miles. At that point, since all the freqs are jammed, it goes terminal.

Do you know what home on jam is? The way you're explaining this indicates you do not.

HOJ was added to the AMRAAM to defeat exactly what you're describing. The RF noise you're emitting to jam everything is exactly what the AMRAAM is homing in on passively. You keep saying you're going to jam the missile's active radar but the missile isn't using active radar to find you, so there is nothing to jam. It will interlace active radar pulses with passive HOJ guidance kit and switch back and forth as needed, as long as you're emitting RF noise it's coming for you passively and you can't jam it.

You are doing a Monopad routine here and giving the one side all of the advantages and treating the other side like they are a bunch of idiots.

This is a cop-out. Manonthestreet comes into the thread to say something idiotic like "F-35 too slow can't fight meh" then doesn't stick around to defend his argument because he can't. I'm responding to everything you're saying and trying my best to understand how you think you're barrage jamming a missile that is HOJ. It makes no sense.

Yes you can see it but you are going to have to come within 20 miles of it to use IR Aim-9 missiles to shoot it.

Nope. AMRAAMs range is longer than 20 miles, and no matter what you believe you aren't jamming a missile that isn't using active radar to target you. Here, via google:

Home-on-jam is a form of passive radar homing used by missiles. It is usually added as an auxiliary guidance mode for missiles equipped with active or semi-active radar guidance. Normally, when a missile is being jammed by a hostile electronic warfare system, it sees nothing but static and useless noise, since the returns that it should be homing in on are being drowned out by the jamming signal. However, the interference source itself can be detected quite clearly. The problem is that most radar guidance systems aren't designed to look for it. With just a minor software tweak, however, most radar seekers can be programmed to home in on the source of interference when they're being jammed. This effectively neutralizes jamming as an effective means of missile defense.

There are ways to defeat HOJ, examples would be spoofing and disposable decoys but neither of this fits in this gameplane you describe of just jamming everything to make the entire battlespace WVR.

All they have to do is to break the link at some point between the Amraam and the F-35 anywhere along the flight of the missile to defeat the missile. And the Radar on board the Amraam won't be strong enough to take it all the way in. I don't have to have a stronger radar jammer than you have for your radar. I just have to have enough to break the chain anywhere along the flight.

What chain? All the F-35 needs is enough information about your location to cue the missile in the right direction, it can do this passively because (like the F-22) it has antennas embedded in various parts of the aircraft and the computing power to use their offsetting signals of your RF noise to triangulate your position. You send out RF noise to jam, F-35 (or F-22) sees you from really far away while you cannot see him.

Contrary to what you believe, the F-35 can be defeated. It won't always win. It just has a higher rate of win than most, that's all.

I don't believe F-35 cannot be defeated, and I never said it cannot be defeated, so you're attacking a straw man here by manufacturing opinions for me to argue against. An F-15, F-16, F-18, etc. can all fire an AMRAAM that switches to HOJ to defeat an ECM emitting target.

All I said was this scenario of jamming every frequency making the battlefield a WVR fight doesn't exist in today's battlefield.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Your missile comes off just like it was designed to. It tracks just fine. Until it get within 20 miles. At that point, since all the freqs are jammed, it goes terminal.

Do you know what home on jam is? The way you're explaining this indicates you do not.

HOJ was added to the AMRAAM to defeat exactly what you're describing. The RF noise you're emitting to jam everything is exactly what the AMRAAM is homing in on passively. You keep saying you're going to jam the missile's active radar but the missile isn't using active radar to find you, so there is nothing to jam. It will interlace active radar pulses with passive HOJ guidance kit and switch back and forth as needed, as long as you're emitting RF noise it's coming for you passively and you can't jam it.

You are doing a Monopad routine here and giving the one side all of the advantages and treating the other side like they are a bunch of idiots.

This is a cop-out. Manonthestreet comes into the thread to say something idiotic like "F-35 too slow can't fight meh" then doesn't stick around to defend his argument because he can't. I'm responding to everything you're saying and trying my best to understand how you think you're barrage jamming a missile that is HOJ. It makes no sense.

Yes you can see it but you are going to have to come within 20 miles of it to use IR Aim-9 missiles to shoot it.

Nope. AMRAAMs range is longer than 20 miles, and no matter what you believe you aren't jamming a missile that isn't using active radar to target you. Here, via google:

Home-on-jam is a form of passive radar homing used by missiles. It is usually added as an auxiliary guidance mode for missiles equipped with active or semi-active radar guidance. Normally, when a missile is being jammed by a hostile electronic warfare system, it sees nothing but static and useless noise, since the returns that it should be homing in on are being drowned out by the jamming signal. However, the interference source itself can be detected quite clearly. The problem is that most radar guidance systems aren't designed to look for it. With just a minor software tweak, however, most radar seekers can be programmed to home in on the source of interference when they're being jammed. This effectively neutralizes jamming as an effective means of missile defense.

There are ways to defeat HOJ, examples would be spoofing and disposable decoys but neither of this fits in this gameplane you describe of just jamming everything to make the entire battlespace WVR.

All they have to do is to break the link at some point between the Amraam and the F-35 anywhere along the flight of the missile to defeat the missile. And the Radar on board the Amraam won't be strong enough to take it all the way in. I don't have to have a stronger radar jammer than you have for your radar. I just have to have enough to break the chain anywhere along the flight.

What chain? All the F-35 needs is enough information about your location to cue the missile in the right direction, it can do this passively because (like the F-22) it has antennas embedded in various parts of the aircraft and the computing power to use their offsetting signals of your RF noise to triangulate your position. You send out RF noise to jam, F-35 (or F-22) sees you from really far away while you cannot see him.

Contrary to what you believe, the F-35 can be defeated. It won't always win. It just has a higher rate of win than most, that's all.

I don't believe F-35 cannot be defeated, and I never said it cannot be defeated, so you're attacking a straw man here by manufacturing opinions for me to argue against. An F-15, F-16, F-18, etc. can all fire an AMRAAM that switches to HOJ to defeat an ECM emitting target.

All I said was this scenario of jamming every frequency making the battlefield a WVR fight doesn't exist in today's battlefield.

Easy answer this one. Pulse the jammer signal in certain intervals. The Amraam loses it's targeting info and goes ballistic. It's not like the Harm that will lose the signal and be able to loiter until it picks something up again. You are going to have to get closer to have any chance of actually hitting anything with your Amraam with a full spectrum Jammer in the mix. Yes, you know the Jammer is there. Yes, he stands out like a sore thumb. But you are going to have to get within IR range to actually attack it with any semblance of a chance to kill it. That means, you are going to have to be within at least 35 miles. And the SU-35 can pick your F-35 up at that range, target it and fire on it with it's own IR missiles. At that point, the Jammer has done his job and boogies for home. You keep assuming that the Jammer is going to be flying in a straight line, not changing altitudes. And there will be only one.

Just remember, he doesn't have to defeat your Radar, he just has to diminish it where you have to get closer to get lock on. Instead of 80 miles, that distance may be degraded to 35 miles and you are now in an IR fight that the Russians are very, very good at. The US is just starting to catch up on getting the IR pods into the field to play that kind of game.

BTW, the F-35A is very capable of operating as a full spectrum Jammer. I don't see any reason there isn't at least a few SU-35s capable of doing the same thing. It's not a hard thing to do and hasn't been since right after Radar was invented and someone said, "Hey, we really should jam that thing".

 

[DrainBamage]

Easy answer this one. Pulse the jammer signal in certain intervals. The Amraam loses it's targeting info and goes ballistic.

AMRAAMs in HOJ switch back and forth seamlessly from active radar to passive home on jam if they lose the signal, they don't just decide to go ballistic if they lose the jamming source.

You are going to have to get closer to have any chance of actually hitting anything with your Amraam with a full spectrum Jammer in the mix.

Absolutely not. You keep drawing this conclusion based on a misunderstanding of how modern air-to-air missiles with HOJ capability work.

Here is something from before it was a reality, back in 1998:

The US Air Force is developing a secondary passive anti-radiation seeker for the Raytheon AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM). The Passive Adjunct Seeker Antenna project is led by the USAF's Wright Laboratories Armament Directorate. A demonstration of the passive seeker antenna has already been carried out, says the USAF research organisation. A passive adjunct seeker would provide the AMRAAM with a dual-mode capability. At present, the AIM-120 relies on its active radar seeker for final target acquisition and terminal guidance.

A secondary seeker would allow for the passively guided launch of an AIM-120 against a target aircraft when the latter's air-intercept radar is emitting. Such an engagement would not require the launch aircraft to use its own radar, with the AMRAAM's passive seeker homing on the radio frequency energy from the target radar. Were the target aircraft's radar to be turned off, then the AMRAAM could revert to the active seeker to relocate it.

You keep assuming that the Jammer is going to be flying in a straight line, not changing altitudes. And there will be only one.

I've not assumed this at all. Every jammer can be targeted, as long as it's sending RF noise to be tracked or not emitting thus visible on an active radar it can have a missile sent it's way whether it's moving or not. I have no idea why you think a missile homing in on a RF source can only do only to a static location.

Just remember, he doesn't have to defeat your Radar, he just has to diminish it where you have to get closer to get lock on. Instead of 80 miles, that distance may be degraded to 35 miles and you are now in an IR fight that the Russians are very, very good at. The US is just starting to catch up on getting the IR pods into the field to play that kind of game.

You keep talking about a radar, but it's a game of passive detection. A F-35 or F-22 can passively detect an RF source, jamming is the source so you're not going to defeat a radar because it isn't using an active radar to detect you. It's using antennas that are embedded at different points on the plane. They can also cue an AMRAAM passively. You can take the radar out of the picture (which the jammer does) and still be detected and targeted at BVR.

BTW, the F-35A is very capable of operating as a full spectrum Jammer. I don't see any reason there isn't at least a few SU-35s capable of doing the same thing. It's not a hard thing to do and hasn't been since right after Radar was invented and someone said, "Hey, we really should jam that thing".

I'm not doubting an SU-35 can operate a full spectrum jammer, I'm doubting that they can jam the entire spectrum and be immune to BVR attack. It worked decades ago when everything was semi-active or active radar for guidance at long ranges, but today's HOJ capable missiles aren't going to be blinded or defeated by barrage jamming. It makes the jammers the targets.

 

[there4eyeM]

Masses of little drones can hover or circle and await their chance. They can overcome by shear, cheap numbers. They don't have to eat, sleep, urinate. They can't be poisoned, blinded by lasers, or get distracted thinking about sex.
Remember WWII. The Sherman was no match for a Tiger, but four or five were and the U.S. produced enormous quantities the Germans couldn't come close to equaling. Unfortunately, the crews suffered horribly. Drones avoid that. There is nothing being sacrificed but some metal and circuitry.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Easy answer this one. Pulse the jammer signal in certain intervals. The Amraam loses it's targeting info and goes ballistic.

AMRAAMs in HOJ switch back and forth seamlessly from active radar to passive home on jam if they lose the signal, they don't just decide to go ballistic if they lose the jamming source.

You are going to have to get closer to have any chance of actually hitting anything with your Amraam with a full spectrum Jammer in the mix.

Absolutely not. You keep drawing this conclusion based on a misunderstanding of how modern air-to-air missiles with HOJ capability work.

Here is something from before it was a reality, back in 1998:

The US Air Force is developing a secondary passive anti-radiation seeker for the Raytheon AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM). The Passive Adjunct Seeker Antenna project is led by the USAF's Wright Laboratories Armament Directorate. A demonstration of the passive seeker antenna has already been carried out, says the USAF research organisation. A passive adjunct seeker would provide the AMRAAM with a dual-mode capability. At present, the AIM-120 relies on its active radar seeker for final target acquisition and terminal guidance.

A secondary seeker would allow for the passively guided launch of an AIM-120 against a target aircraft when the latter's air-intercept radar is emitting. Such an engagement would not require the launch aircraft to use its own radar, with the AMRAAM's passive seeker homing on the radio frequency energy from the target radar. Were the target aircraft's radar to be turned off, then the AMRAAM could revert to the active seeker to relocate it.

You keep assuming that the Jammer is going to be flying in a straight line, not changing altitudes. And there will be only one.

I've not assumed this at all. Every jammer can be targeted, as long as it's sending RF noise to be tracked or not emitting thus visible on an active radar it can have a missile sent it's way whether it's moving or not. I have no idea why you think a missile homing in on a RF source can only do only to a static location.

Just remember, he doesn't have to defeat your Radar, he just has to diminish it where you have to get closer to get lock on. Instead of 80 miles, that distance may be degraded to 35 miles and you are now in an IR fight that the Russians are very, very good at. The US is just starting to catch up on getting the IR pods into the field to play that kind of game.

You keep talking about a radar, but it's a game of passive detection. A F-35 or F-22 can passively detect an RF source, jamming is the source so you're not going to defeat a radar because it isn't using an active radar to detect you. It's using antennas that are embedded at different points on the plane. They can also cue an AMRAAM passively. You can take the radar out of the picture (which the jammer does) and still be detected and targeted at BVR.

BTW, the F-35A is very capable of operating as a full spectrum Jammer. I don't see any reason there isn't at least a few SU-35s capable of doing the same thing. It's not a hard thing to do and hasn't been since right after Radar was invented and someone said, "Hey, we really should jam that thing".

I'm not doubting an SU-35 can operate a full spectrum jammer, I'm doubting that they can jam the entire spectrum and be immune to BVR attack. It worked decades ago when everything was semi-active or active radar for guidance at long ranges, but today's HOJ capable missiles aren't going to be blinded or defeated by barrage jamming. It makes the jammers the targets.

They don't have to. They do have advanced digital radio frequency memory (DRFM) jammers installed just like the EF-18Gs do. The HOJ gets mighty confused when the return it receives it that of a clear blue sky. This doesn't mean that all missiles will be defeated but it does mean that you are going to have to launch a bunch of them to get the kill. And you are going to have to get closer to do it since even the AESA is affected by the DRFM. Almost all SU-35s and many SU-27 carries the DRFM. Now, throw into the mix the dirty jammer with the DRFM as part of it's package. To give you an idea on how successful the DRFM is, in war games, the EF-18 has forced the F-22 into a WVR role. Of course, the EF isn't alone since it will also be accompanied by a few F-18E/Fs. The F-22 can then be overpowered by numbers. The Allies, Russians and Chinese have DRFM so it really complicates things. Raethon is working to defeat the DRFM but they have not been able to do so quite yet. While the DRFM is not infallible, it greatly reduces the ranges and number of kills per weapons.

Like I said, you build the system and I will build a system to defeat or degrade your system. Just remember, the Russians have a lot more birds with the DRFM installed than we have with that hot new AESA radar.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Masses of little drones can hover or circle and await their chance. They can overcome by shear, cheap numbers. They don't have to eat, sleep, urinate. They can't be poisoned, blinded by lasers, or get distracted thinking about sex.
Remember WWII. The Sherman was no match for a Tiger, but four or five were and the U.S. produced enormous quantities the Germans couldn't come close to equaling. Unfortunately, the crews suffered horribly. Drones avoid that. There is nothing being sacrificed but some metal and circuitry.

As of Block 4 for the F-35A, it can control drone swarms. What you are saying sounds just like it was taken from a good Science Fiction Novel or Movie. But it's closer than we think to happening.

 

[WorldWatcher]

.>


Thank you guys for a stimulating thread, I've followed it for a long time.

So my question is, will/could the F-35 integrate something like this -->> (Radar missile decoys will draw enemy missiles away from RAF jets)

Basically an RF decoy.

Deploy the decoy, go EMCON, and have an inbound missile track to it instead of the aircraft.

Current status?

.>>>>

 

[Daryl Hunt]

.>


Thank you guys for a stimulating thread, I've followed it for a long time.

So my question is, will/could the F-35 integrate something like this -->> (Radar missile decoys will draw enemy missiles away from RAF jets)

Basically an RF decoy.

Deploy the decoy, go EMCON, and have an inbound missile track to it instead of the aircraft.

Current status?

.>>>>

They are trying to find a better replacement for the Chaff and Flares. It may work for a Chaff replacement but there is nothing better than a good old fashion Magnesium flare. According to the Brits, it's being developed.

 

[DrainBamage]

They don't have to. They do have advanced digital radio frequency memory (DRFM) jammers installed just like the EF-18Gs do.

Yes, DRFM would work but then you're talking about something completely different than barrage jamming. When you're using DRFM you're focusing on the exact frequency of the target radar, storing the signal to send back as a spoof. How do you think you're making the entire battlespace WVR if your jamming pod has to focus on the active radar seeker of a single AMRAAM? You can't use barrage jamming at the same time because that noise would negate what your deceptive is trying to do, and the HOJ missile would just go after the barrage jamming source. You lose the benefit of DRFM spoofing your position if you're aircraft is barrage jamming at same time, because all that noise screams "here I am!" to aircraft with good passive sensors.

And you are going to have to get closer to do it since even the AESA is affected by the DRFM

You just said you're barrage jamming too, the F-35/F-22 knows where you are from this, it doesn't need the AESA.

To give you an idea on how successful the DRFM is, in war games, the EF-18 has forced the F-22 into a WVR role. Of course, the EF isn't alone since it will also be accompanied by a few F-18E/Fs. The F-22 can then be overpowered by numbers.

Do you have a source for this?

Like I said, you build the system and I will build a system to defeat or degrade your system.

You haven't yet. You've just said a lot of often contradictory things and not being able to support your argument that barrage jamming can make an entire battlespace a WVR fight.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

They don't have to. They do have advanced digital radio frequency memory (DRFM) jammers installed just like the EF-18Gs do.

Yes, DRFM would work but then you're talking about something completely different than barrage jamming. When you're using DRFM you're focusing on the exact frequency of the target radar, storing the signal to send back as a spoof. How do you think you're making the entire battlespace WVR if your jamming pod has to focus on the active radar seeker of a single AMRAAM? You can't use barrage jamming at the same time because that noise would negate what your deceptive is trying to do, and the HOJ missile would just go after the barrage jamming source. You lose the benefit of DRFM spoofing your position if you're aircraft is barrage jamming at same time, because all that noise screams "here I am!" to aircraft with good passive sensors.

And you are going to have to get closer to do it since even the AESA is affected by the DRFM

You just said you're barrage jamming too, the F-35/F-22 knows where you are from this, it doesn't need the AESA.

To give you an idea on how successful the DRFM is, in war games, the EF-18 has forced the F-22 into a WVR role. Of course, the EF isn't alone since it will also be accompanied by a few F-18E/Fs. The F-22 can then be overpowered by numbers.

Do you have a source for this?

Like I said, you build the system and I will build a system to defeat or degrade your system.

You haven't yet. You've just said a lot of often contradictory things and not being able to support your argument that barrage jamming can make an entire battlespace a WVR fight.

There is only one sure fired way to prove any of this. You can listen to experience or the US and Russia can go to war against each other. You are using the old adage, You have everything and the enemy will have just one and you will win. A Dirty Jammer will NEVER be used by itself. Much like sending in an specific mission bird in by itself other than a Strategic Bomber only because no fighter has the range to hang with any of the Bombers. You honestly believe that the EF-18G won't stand out like a sore thumb against Russias Best? But the F-35C and B will hang back and use it's bag of tricks in support of the Growler.

Even the US uses dirty jammers. We have Aircraft that can shutdown an entire area of not only any form of radar but stop the use of cell phones, and anything signal that goes through the air regardless of what frequency. And one of the easiest to block is the X band that the Amraam uses to home in with when it finally gets close enough to take command. I don't need a cite on this. I have experience, you don't. And our visiting Elint Troop would be able to do this as well with his toys. No Radar or Signal has ever been made that cannot be defeated and never will be unless someone reinvents the laws of Physics.

You want cites? Then I suggest you give them. You haven't given any yourself and yet you demand that I give them. Nope, I give you over 20 years experience being around a lot of different missioned Aircraft including the F, C, B, AC, RC and EC types. I know some of what they can do. But I don't know all of what they can do and even if I did, I wouldn't broadcast it and expect to not be doing a lengthy stay in Military Club Fed. You want proof whether it can be done or not? Start a war, enlist, put your own ass or your own Sons ass on the line instead of sending someone elses.

You keep screaming over and over that the US has Aesa Radar. Newsflash: So does Russia. The Mig-35 packs the Zhuk-AME FGA 50 and they are considering upgrading the SU-35 to it. But in order to do that upgrade on the SU, it's going to take a considerable more upgrading than normal so they might be calling it a SU-40 or something like that. But it's coming. And already on the Mig-35 who designed from the ground up after the Zhuk-AME FGA 50 was made available. The SU-35 was designed before it was made available. You want a cite on that? I suggest you go look it up yourself. I don't play the old "Cite, Cite" crap game very well.

I can always tell when someone is in serious trouble. They either fall back on the insults or the "Cite" routine. And that is where you are right now. Move on.

 

[DrainBamage]

You are using the old adage, You have everything and the enemy will have just one and you will win.

No, I'm not but that's about the fourth time you've fabricated an argument for me.

To state my position again (and it's incredible this is required yet another time) = I don't believe it's possible for a dirty jammer to make battlespace a WVR fight. I never said one side had everything, I never said F-35s are invincible, I never said whatever other exaggeration of my opinion you're planning on making up next.

A Dirty Jammer will NEVER be used by itself.

If your dirty jammer is putting out enough noise to render RF signals useless for a given battlespace, you cannot use deception jamming in that same area because it relies on sending out deceptive RF signals. You said dirty jamming made the battlespace WVR, but when it was pointed out the jamming source would be a BVR target for HOJ missiles you're suddenly talking about deception jamming. Deceptive jamming will not protect the source of barrage jamming, since it wouldn't work in that environment.

And one of the easiest to block is the X band that the Amraam uses to home in with when it finally gets close enough to take command

The AMRAAM is flying HOJ it is already in command and it's passive so it's radar cannot be jammed. Eventually it's getting close enough to reach RF burn through, via passive guidance. This is a recording.

I don't need a cite on this. I have experience, you don't.

Does that usually work for you? Where you can just say whatever you want then lean on claims of experience instead of actually backing it up? Sorry you have to provide a source when you state something like you did about F-18s forcing F-22s to operate WVR exercises in exercises. Do you have it?

You want cites? Then I suggest you give them. You haven't given any yourself and yet you demand that I give them. Nope, I give you over 20 years experience being around a lot of different missioned Aircraft including the F, C, B, AC, RC and EC types. I know some of what they can do. But I don't know all of what they can do and even if I did, I wouldn't broadcast it and expect to not be doing a lengthy stay in Military Club Fed. You want proof whether it can be done or not? Start a war, enlist, put your own ass or your own Sons ass on the line instead of sending someone elses.

What exactly would you like a cite of? Proof that modern AMRAAMs have HOJ mode? Proof that HOJ mode is passive so cannot be jammed with barrage jamming? Proof that F-35s and F-22s can use the antennas spread out across exterior of aircraft to triangulate the source of an electronic emission like a barrage jamming source from BVR? Proof that an F-22 or F-35 can cue an AMRAAM using said passive data without using it's radar?

Those are the basis of my argument, and I'd be happy to dig up a source proving any of them.

You keep screaming over and over that the US has Aesa Radar.

Irrelevant whether Russia has it or not, we're talking about whether barrage jamming makes a battlespace WVR only. The Russian plane using barrage jamming is a target whether it has AESA or not.

I can always tell when someone is in serious trouble. They either fall back on the insults or the "Cite" routine. And that is where you are right now. Move on.

That's how it works, back up what you're shoveling or save it. Your use of appeal to authority fallacy hasn't helped you explain how barrage jamming makes a battlespace WVR in modern era. If anything the person in serious trouble is the one resorting to claiming everything they say should just be believed because they say so.

 

[DrainBamage]

So let's get away from the various fallacies (strawman, appeal to authority) and instead of getting angry that someone dare question you how about you try to walk me through how this works. Prove to me that a plane can render an entire battlespace WVR.

1. You've got a barrage jamming source flying at the center of this denied airspace, pumping out RF noise across all frequencies (thus weakening the power at any given frequency) so that radars are not useful at detecting/tracking objects within it's area of effect.

2. I submit this aircraft is vulnerable to passive detection and targeting by F-22s and F-35s. They were built with antennas embedded around the aircraft and the computing power to triangulate RF signals.

3. Current generation of AMRAAM can be launched at this jamming source by said F-22s and F-35s in HOJ mode where the AMRAAM is homing passive thus will not be affected by barrage jamming since it's homing on RF source and doesn't require course updates from launching aircraft. Furthermore an aircraft engaging in barrage jamming would see neither the F-22/F-35 at BVR launching the missiles nor the AMRAAMs themselves since it's at the center of airspace where RF noise has rendered radars ineffective.

4. You're talking about DRFM defeating the AMRAAMs, which it could do (so could spot jamming on x-band) but again DRFM relies on sending a radar signal to spoof and you're barrage jamming so radars don't work. Furthermore, how do you know to start jamming an AMRAAM that you don't see coming since radars are ineffective around your aircraft? Without detecting it you'd have no reason to switch to spot or DRFM jamming. Furthermore, DRFM is mainly used at longer ranges to deceive locations or number, once something is inside the distance of the range you're trying to spoof to it's far less effective.

So exactly how does this aircraft that is barrage jamming intend to stay alive? It would be a victim of it's only electronic airspace denial, and the very fact that a barrage jamming source can be detected and targeted from BVR means the claim it's a WVR environment false.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

You are using the old adage, You have everything and the enemy will have just one and you will win.

No, I'm not but that's about the fourth time you've fabricated an argument for me.

To state my position again (and it's incredible this is required yet another time) = I don't believe it's possible for a dirty jammer to make battlespace a WVR fight. I never said one side had everything, I never said F-35s are invincible, I never said whatever other exaggeration of my opinion you're planning on making up next.

A Dirty Jammer will NEVER be used by itself.

If your dirty jammer is putting out enough noise to render RF signals useless for a given battlespace, you cannot use deception jamming in that same area because it relies on sending out deceptive RF signals. You said dirty jamming made the battlespace WVR, but when it was pointed out the jamming source would be a BVR target for HOJ missiles you're suddenly talking about deception jamming. Deceptive jamming will not protect the source of barrage jamming, since it wouldn't work in that environment.

And one of the easiest to block is the X band that the Amraam uses to home in with when it finally gets close enough to take command

The AMRAAM is flying HOJ it is already in command and it's passive so it's radar cannot be jammed. Eventually it's getting close enough to reach RF burn through, via passive guidance. This is a recording.

I don't need a cite on this. I have experience, you don't.

Does that usually work for you? Where you can just say whatever you want then lean on claims of experience instead of actually backing it up? Sorry you have to provide a source when you state something like you did about F-18s forcing F-22s to operate WVR exercises in exercises. Do you have it?

You want cites? Then I suggest you give them. You haven't given any yourself and yet you demand that I give them. Nope, I give you over 20 years experience being around a lot of different missioned Aircraft including the F, C, B, AC, RC and EC types. I know some of what they can do. But I don't know all of what they can do and even if I did, I wouldn't broadcast it and expect to not be doing a lengthy stay in Military Club Fed. You want proof whether it can be done or not? Start a war, enlist, put your own ass or your own Sons ass on the line instead of sending someone elses.

What exactly would you like a cite of? Proof that modern AMRAAMs have HOJ mode? Proof that HOJ mode is passive so cannot be jammed with barrage jamming? Proof that F-35s and F-22s can use the antennas spread out across exterior of aircraft to triangulate the source of an electronic emission like a barrage jamming source from BVR? Proof that an F-22 or F-35 can cue an AMRAAM using said passive data without using it's radar?

Those are the basis of my argument, and I'd be happy to dig up a source proving any of them.

You keep screaming over and over that the US has Aesa Radar.

Irrelevant whether Russia has it or not, we're talking about whether barrage jamming makes a battlespace WVR only. The Russian plane using barrage jamming is a target whether it has AESA or not.

I can always tell when someone is in serious trouble. They either fall back on the insults or the "Cite" routine. And that is where you are right now. Move on.

That's how it works, back up what you're shoveling or save it. Your use of appeal to authority fallacy hasn't helped you explain how barrage jamming makes a battlespace WVR in modern era. If anything the person in serious trouble is the one resorting to claiming everything they say should just be believed because they say so.

There is only one way to know for sure and that is a war between the Russians and the US. Are you willing to find out? War is prevented by preventable pauses. And since my Family has been in many wars in the past, I pray to God that the preventable pauses continue to work.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

So let's get away from the various fallacies (strawman, appeal to authority) and instead of getting angry that someone dare question you how about you try to walk me through how this works. Prove to me that a plane can render an entire battlespace WVR.

1. You've got a barrage jamming source flying at the center of this denied airspace, pumping out RF noise across all frequencies (thus weakening the power at any given frequency) so that radars are not useful at detecting/tracking objects within it's area of effect.

2. I submit this aircraft is vulnerable to passive detection and targeting by F-22s and F-35s. They were built with antennas embedded around the aircraft and the computing power to triangulate RF signals.

3. Current generation of AMRAAM can be launched at this jamming source by said F-22s and F-35s in HOJ mode where the AMRAAM is homing passive thus will not be affected by barrage jamming since it's homing on RF source and doesn't require course updates from launching aircraft. Furthermore an aircraft engaging in barrage jamming would see neither the F-22/F-35 at BVR launching the missiles nor the AMRAAMs themselves since it's at the center of airspace where RF noise has rendered radars ineffective.

4. You're talking about DRFM defeating the AMRAAMs, which it could do (so could spot jamming on x-band) but again DRFM relies on sending a radar signal to spoof and you're barrage jamming so radars don't work. Furthermore, how do you know to start jamming an AMRAAM that you don't see coming since radars are ineffective around your aircraft? Without detecting it you'd have no reason to switch to spot or DRFM jamming. Furthermore, DRFM is mainly used at longer ranges to deceive locations or number, once something is inside the distance of the range you're trying to spoof to it's far less effective.

So exactly how does this aircraft that is barrage jamming intend to stay alive? It would be a victim of it's only electronic airspace denial, and the very fact that a barrage jamming source can be detected and targeted from BVR means the claim it's a WVR environment false.

There you go again. You want to have the dirty jammer out there all by itself. You forget that it's going to have support from others that are flying just behind or beside or outside the cone of jamming influence. The Jammers job is to allow the supporting cast to close and engage at IR range where your wonderful new toys are pretty well worthless unless you count on the F-15E and F-22 Aim-9X. The F-35 will probably hang back as it's going to be who has the most Missiles and who can close fastest and a bunch of other attributes that the F-35 is not designed to have. Yah, Yah, I know the F-35A can carry two Aim-9Xs but it defeats his forward stealth capability. Once the dirty jammer has allowed his supporting staff to get within IR range (and the Russians currently have a slight advantage in that in the merge), the job and life of the dirty jammer is done. He can be destroyed or disengage and go home at that point. The job of the jammer (and maybe the life) will be measured in minutes. He will make the distance go from about 80 miles, which is the real kill range of the Amraam and the Russian equiv of it, down to about 35 miles which is the kill rate of the IR AA missiles of both sides.

You keep presenting the Detectors on the F-35 as unlimited in range. They are not. They have a short range unless the other side wants to fly with his radar constantly on which just ain't going to happen. Once you remove the long range radar from the fight, both sides will be using IR detectors and Mark 7 Eyeballs to see the enemy. And for IR Detector equipped Fighters, the Russians have a definite advantage since all SU-35s, Mig-35s and most SU-27s have them installed already. And we are just now starting to install them on the F-15C/D/E and F-22. The only fighter on the US side that has it already is the F-35. And the F-35 won't be in this knock down, drag out fight.

The fact remains that there is going to be a huge amount of Missiles expended by both sides just to get a handful of kills or damages. Most Amraams will be defeated as well as most Russian Equiv missiles. It's going to be a supersonic close to see who can get in IR range first, get the lockon and launch. And there is going to be a huge expenditure of IR missiles to get only a handful of kills as well. What very well come out of this is only a few will be killed and all will go home with empty racks. The last thing either side really wants to do is get into a gun fight but if Pilots are equal, the Russians will have the advantage if they can generate enough SU-35s.

In the end, it's not going to be the F-22 that ends the day in the Air for the US. It's going to be all the other fighters since the F-22 is a one sortie bird. In this type of fight, each AC is going to have to be resortied at least 2 or 3 to maintain an hope of winning. Once the F-22 expends it's 8 missiles, it's done. Even the measily 6 missiles that the F-35 has a huge advantage since it can be resortied up to 3 times in a given day. Just remember, less than half of the F-22 force will be combat ready. And that is what, half of less than 190 Aircraft and that is if you had them all in one spot. The F-22 will be only good for the opening shots when all those missiles are going to be flung by both sides at each other. Once that's done, he's done. When he lands, he's probably down for the next 3 days. It won't take but a couple of days to deplete the F-22 down to being ineffective due to high lengthy and costly maintenance. Meanwhile, the F-15 will be doing what it's always done and be the front line Interdiction Fighter. Not to worry, the Russians will be having their own problems with the SU-35 only being able to make a few sorties before it gets in the same boat. For the long run, it's going to be for long range fighters, the F-15 against the SU-27 since they both have the numbers to continue.

And you leave out the rest of the supporting cast as well including the ECs, RCs, Ground Installations and more. There might even be a ship or two that get's a few licks in as well. The Dirty Jammer is just part of that cast for the production. And both sides will be using it.

 

[DrainBamage]

There is only one way to know for sure and that is a war between the Russians and the US.

False. Weapons, radars, ECM, ECCM, etc. can be developed and tested without a war.

 

[DrainBamage]

There you go again. You want to have the dirty jammer out there all by itself. You forget that it's going to have support from others that are flying just behind or beside or outside the cone of jamming influence. The Jammers job is to allow the supporting cast to close and engage at IR range where your wonderful new toys are pretty well worthless unless you count on the F-15E and F-22 Aim-9X. The F-35 will probably hang back as it's going to be who has the most Missiles and who can close fastest and a bunch of other attributes that the F-35 is not designed to have. Yah, Yah, I know the F-35A can carry two Aim-9Xs but it defeats his forward stealth capability. Once the dirty jammer has allowed his supporting staff to get within IR range (and the Russians currently have a slight advantage in that in the merge), the job and life of the dirty jammer is done. He can be destroyed or disengage and go home at that point. The job of the jammer (and maybe the life) will be measured in minutes. He will make the distance go from about 80 miles, which is the real kill range of the Amraam and the Russian equiv of it, down to about 35 miles which is the kill rate of the IR AA missiles of both sides.

I don't have the jammer out there by itself, you just haven't been able to articulate how it matters.

1. The plane that is jamming will be detected at BVR, because all that RF noise is a big "here I am" sign. It will be the target of AMRAAMs launched HOJ from BVR. Therefore your claim that jamming will make it a WVR fight are false.

2. Now you're talking about a cone of influence, how does this jamming aircraft know where the F-22 even is? Maybe it (or it's wingman) are approaching from an angle outside the cone of influence.

You keep presenting the Detectors on the F-35 as unlimited in range. They are not. They have a short range unless the other side wants to fly with his radar constantly on which just ain't going to happen. Once you remove the long range radar from the fight, both sides will be using IR detectors and Mark 7 Eyeballs to see the enemy. And for IR Detector equipped Fighters, the Russians have a definite advantage since all SU-35s, Mig-35s and most SU-27s have them installed already. And we are just now starting to install them on the F-15C/D/E and F-22. The only fighter on the US side that has it already is the F-35. And the F-35 won't be in this knock down, drag out fight.

Absolutely false, you're again attributing arguments to me I never made. I said the passive RF sensors on the F-22 and F-35 would detect your jamming source at BVR, which is a fact. Here is some info about ALR-94:

The ALR-94, meanwhile, is the most effective passive system ever installed on a fighter. Tom Burbage, former head of the F-22 program at Lockheed Martin, has described it as "the most technically complex piece of equipment on the aircraft." The F-22 has been described as an antenna farm. Indeed, it would resemble a signals-intelligence (SIGINT) platform were it not for the fact that the 30-plus antennas are all smoothly blended into the wings and fuselage. The ALR-94 provides 360[degrees] coverage in all bands, with both azimuth and elevation coverage in the forward sector. A target which is using radar to search for the F-22 or other friendly aircraft can be detected, tracked and identified by the ALR-94 long before its radar can see anything, at ranges of 250 nm or more.

F-35 has AN/ASQ-239, which is a more advanced version of F-22s that uses 10 antennas embedded into the plane. I cannot imagine how someone can convince themself that these passive sensors would not pick up an aircraft purposely emitting RF noise at high power. It doesn't matter if the other planes are using their radars or not, that aircraft doing the jamming is easily tracked from BVR and attacked from BVR.

The fact remains that there is going to be a huge amount of Missiles expended by both sides just to get a handful of kills or damages. Most Amraams will be defeated as well as most Russian Equiv missiles. It's going to be a supersonic close to see who can get in IR range first, get the lockon and launch. And there is going to be a huge expenditure of IR missiles to get only a handful of kills as well. What very well come out of this is only a few will be killed and all will go home with empty racks. The last thing either side really wants to do is get into a gun fight but if Pilots are equal, the Russians will have the advantage if they can generate enough SU-35s.

What are the Russians aiming their missiles at? From what you said they are flying blind hoping that F-22s decide to approach this jamming source instead of shoot it out of the sky from BVR. If the F-22s see your jamming source's heading they don't have to just approach from headon.

cone of influence

What happens when an F-22 attacks from outside this cone of influence? I don't believe the pilots received any memo that if there is an obvious radiation source from an enemy aircraft barrage jamming they are required to head full speed to engage head on and hope for the best, which seems to be what you're counting on. Remember, your formation is flying blind and has no idea if/where the F-22s are, but they knew exactly where you were from a great distance.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

There is only one way to know for sure and that is a war between the Russians and the US.

False. Weapons, radars, ECM, ECCM, etc. can be developed and tested without a war.

We already know that they don't allow either the US Planes to exibit their capabilities out in the open. You can develop things but if the public isn't in the loop, you can't know what is really the truth. Sort of like the Chinese DR21 or the Russian Armata or SU-57. Then there is the Propoganda that both sides put out to appear larger than they really are. It's reminiscent of the late 1950s through the early 70s with the American engine producers. AHRA used a Horsepower per pound. While your Chevy 454 was rated at 425 hp, the claim of the 426 Hemi of 425 got you a rating of 550 hp in stock trim. In 1958 Chrysler put out a 392 Hemi. Decades later, an engine builder built up a 392 Imperial Hemi to stock condition and dynoed it out. That 392 by 392 was dynoed out at 505 hp. Only a Motor Head will understand this one, This is why today, a 1958 Christine should not be sold off short in a drag race with anything short of a rocket car. The Demon V the Hellcat has almost the same engine yet one is rated at 707 and the other at 850 hp. But on the Dyno, they are almost identical. What is the difference? Not the engines so much but the Demon is lightened up considerably with a stump pulling gear ration while the Hellcat is designed for the street as well as cornering and is considerable heavier and geared for over 200 mph.But the Demon is advertised as the superior car. Not in my book.

What's real and what isn't. The US and Russia only leak out most of what is real. Behind the scenes, there might be more capabilities or some hoaxes. It's way above my pay grade to know for sure what is real and what isn't. This is why we haven't started taking out North Koreas Ballistic Missiles in flight. You can do all the hits but do one miss and that's the one that gets reported. Better to not show the capability and allow the paltry number of launches since they aren't loaded with a yield anyway. Even Kim should know that not one single warhead will reach apogee should he fire an armed version. But that is not what he tells his Subjects. In War Games, the F-22 doesn't use all it's capabilities and can be contested at times. The same goes for the F-35A when it's finally used in the World War Games. The F-15 already flies like that as well and always had. What is real and what is hype? The Russians are no different with the systems. They hype one area and don't let you see another area.

Again, (hear the echo) the only sure way to know the truth is to have a war between Russia and the US. Then the truth comes out fast. And neither side is willing to find out that way.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

There you go again. You want to have the dirty jammer out there all by itself. You forget that it's going to have support from others that are flying just behind or beside or outside the cone of jamming influence. The Jammers job is to allow the supporting cast to close and engage at IR range where your wonderful new toys are pretty well worthless unless you count on the F-15E and F-22 Aim-9X. The F-35 will probably hang back as it's going to be who has the most Missiles and who can close fastest and a bunch of other attributes that the F-35 is not designed to have. Yah, Yah, I know the F-35A can carry two Aim-9Xs but it defeats his forward stealth capability. Once the dirty jammer has allowed his supporting staff to get within IR range (and the Russians currently have a slight advantage in that in the merge), the job and life of the dirty jammer is done. He can be destroyed or disengage and go home at that point. The job of the jammer (and maybe the life) will be measured in minutes. He will make the distance go from about 80 miles, which is the real kill range of the Amraam and the Russian equiv of it, down to about 35 miles which is the kill rate of the IR AA missiles of both sides.

I don't have the jammer out there by itself, you just haven't been able to articulate how it matters.

1. The plane that is jamming will be detected at BVR, because all that RF noise is a big "here I am" sign. It will be the target of AMRAAMs launched HOJ from BVR. Therefore your claim that jamming will make it a WVR fight are false.

2. Now you're talking about a cone of influence, how does this jamming aircraft know where the F-22 even is? Maybe it (or it's wingman) are approaching from an angle outside the cone of influence.

You keep presenting the Detectors on the F-35 as unlimited in range. They are not. They have a short range unless the other side wants to fly with his radar constantly on which just ain't going to happen. Once you remove the long range radar from the fight, both sides will be using IR detectors and Mark 7 Eyeballs to see the enemy. And for IR Detector equipped Fighters, the Russians have a definite advantage since all SU-35s, Mig-35s and most SU-27s have them installed already. And we are just now starting to install them on the F-15C/D/E and F-22. The only fighter on the US side that has it already is the F-35. And the F-35 won't be in this knock down, drag out fight.

Absolutely false, you're again attributing arguments to me I never made. I said the passive RF sensors on the F-22 and F-35 would detect your jamming source at BVR, which is a fact. Here is some info about ALR-94:

The ALR-94, meanwhile, is the most effective passive system ever installed on a fighter. Tom Burbage, former head of the F-22 program at Lockheed Martin, has described it as "the most technically complex piece of equipment on the aircraft." The F-22 has been described as an antenna farm. Indeed, it would resemble a signals-intelligence (SIGINT) platform were it not for the fact that the 30-plus antennas are all smoothly blended into the wings and fuselage. The ALR-94 provides 360[degrees] coverage in all bands, with both azimuth and elevation coverage in the forward sector. A target which is using radar to search for the F-22 or other friendly aircraft can be detected, tracked and identified by the ALR-94 long before its radar can see anything, at ranges of 250 nm or more.

F-35 has AN/ASQ-239, which is a more advanced version of F-22s that uses 10 antennas embedded into the plane. I cannot imagine how someone can convince themself that these passive sensors would not pick up an aircraft purposely emitting RF noise at high power. It doesn't matter if the other planes are using their radars or not, that aircraft doing the jamming is easily tracked from BVR and attacked from BVR.

The fact remains that there is going to be a huge amount of Missiles expended by both sides just to get a handful of kills or damages. Most Amraams will be defeated as well as most Russian Equiv missiles. It's going to be a supersonic close to see who can get in IR range first, get the lockon and launch. And there is going to be a huge expenditure of IR missiles to get only a handful of kills as well. What very well come out of this is only a few will be killed and all will go home with empty racks. The last thing either side really wants to do is get into a gun fight but if Pilots are equal, the Russians will have the advantage if they can generate enough SU-35s.

What are the Russians aiming their missiles at? From what you said they are flying blind hoping that F-22s decide to approach this jamming source instead of shoot it out of the sky from BVR. If the F-22s see your jamming source's heading they don't have to just approach from headon.

cone of influence

What happens when an F-22 attacks from outside this cone of influence? I don't believe the pilots received any memo that if there is an obvious radiation source from an enemy aircraft barrage jamming they are required to head full speed to engage head on and hope for the best, which seems to be what you're counting on. Remember, your formation is flying blind and has no idea if/where the F-22s are, but they knew exactly where you were from a great distance.

Your HOJ works only when the Jammer is active. If he is pulsing the jam your HOJ will lose signal and go ballistic. It's not like a Harm that can go into loiter mode and wait for the signal to come back on. So they pulse the signal in a way to prevent the HOJ.

Meanwhile, the F-22 is going to be in front of the jammer. He isn't going to mysteriously beam me up scotty behind the Russian Force. It doesn't work that way. Plus, both sides are going to begin the battle with Radar ON but quickly go to passive modes that reduces their sensors to about 35 miles. But you want the Russians to keep their Radar on at all times. Not going to happen considering, outside of the F-35, the SU-35 has the best forward sensors for IR out to about 35 miles. Ones again, you are pulling a Monopad routine where you give all the good stuff (both real and imagined) to your side while you cripple the other side. If the F-22 leaves his Radar on, chances are, he will be testing out if the new Russian AA Missiles do have the range they claim they do have. I doubt if the Pilot will want to take that chance. If he leaves his radar on HE stands out like a beacon in the night.

Your conditions are, ALL Russian Fighters MUST fly with active radar. The Jammers must not pulse their jams. The F-22s can start the fight anywhere they wish by beaming to the appropriate location best suited to them. All Russian Defensive weapons and counters will not work very well. Get a grip. It's like requiring the F-35 to fly with his IFF turned on so the other side can see him. Not going to happen. Placing artificial conditions are fine in war games but in actual war, there are NO pre conditions. That's a sure fired way to lose a war fast.

 

[DrainBamage]

We already know that they don't allow either the US Planes to exibit their capabilities out in the open.

Yet here you were earlier in this thread talking about the Russian plane jamming everything.

Again, (hear the echo) the only sure way to know the truth is to have a war between Russia and the US. Then the truth comes out fast. And neither side is willing to find out that way.

You don't need a war to validate basic principles of electronic warfare.