F35 - superfighter or lame duck?

[DrainBamage]

Your HOJ works only when the Jammer is active. If he is pulsing the jam your HOJ will lose signal and go ballistic. It's not like a Harm that can go into loiter mode and wait for the signal to come back on. So they pulse the signal in a way to prevent the HOJ.

You don't understand how an AMRAAM in HOJ works. It interlaces passive and active pulses to be able to switch back to active radar if the ECM source goes silent, it does not just go ballistic. You've also (again) argued against your premise that barrage jamming makes the entire airspace a WVR fight, if you're pulsing your barrage jamming opposing radars can get a good BVR view of where your assets are, in addition to the passive view they've got from the jamming. Meanwhile you're still blind.

Meanwhile, the F-22 is going to be in front of the jammer. He isn't going to mysteriously beam me up scotty behind the Russian Force. It doesn't work that way. Plus, both sides are going to begin the battle with Radar ON but quickly go to passive modes that reduces their sensors to about 35 miles. But you want the Russians to keep their Radar on at all times. Not going to happen considering, outside of the F-35, the SU-35 has the best forward sensors for IR out to about 35 miles. Ones again, you are pulling a Monopad routine where you give all the good stuff (both real and imagined) to your side while you cripple the other side. If the F-22 leaves his Radar on, chances are, he will be testing out if the new Russian AA Missiles do have the range they claim they do have. I doubt if the Pilot will want to take that chance. If he leaves his radar on HE stands out like a beacon in the night.

Why does the F-22 need to be in front of the jammer? I didn't know we were talking about some bizarre corner-case scenario where the F-22s who see the opposing force from over two hundred miles away are not allowed to change course to approach from an angle outside the frontal cones where their sensors are strongest.

You're also wrong about both sides going into the battle with active radars on, the F-22s will detect your RF (from either radar or jamming) from outside the range of either radar and won't be emitting anything.

You're also wrong about sensor range, F-22 can passively detect RF signals (like a jammer) at much greater range than a radar can detect anything, I already provided a source backing this up so when you say it's 35 miles you're just ignoring inconvenient facts. Again:

A target which is using radar to search for the F-22 or other friendly aircraft can be detected, tracked and identified by the ALR-94 long before its radar can see anything, at ranges of 250 nm or more

That jamming you keep talking about as some panacea of invulnerability? That's the RF source that you're pumping as much power as possible into, and that's what gets you tracked passively from far away. YOu don't need an active radar broadcasting RF to be picked up when your jamming to broadcast RF.


You're also wrong about me wanting to keep their radars on all the time, you're attributing something to me I didn't say, for probably the 5th time in this discussion. All those F-22s need to know where your planes are is for that jammer to be emitting. They'll pick it up from hundreds of miles away.

You're also wrong about me crippling either side, I'm responding to exactly how you say they'll operate.

Your conditions are, ALL Russian Fighters MUST fly with active radar. The Jammers must not pulse their jams. The F-22s can start the fight anywhere they wish by beaming to the appropriate location best suited to them.

False, false, false. I never said Russians must fly with active radar. I never said jammer cannot pulse their jams. I never said F-22s can start the fight anywhere they want. I'll try to describe my argument again since you misstate it pretty much every time.

1. F-22s passively detect the jammer. They don't need any active radars to be detected, the jamming source is all they need to know where the Russians are. They will detect this jammer from much greater range than their radars could pick them up, it's a fundamental aspect of RF that simply receiving a signal can be done at much greater distance than receiving the bounce return of one you sent. I'm not sure how I can make this any more clear, you can't seem to wrap your head around the fact that the jammer is what gives their position away. So F-22s know position of plane doing the jamming, but the jamming source is flying blind.

2. It doesn't matter if they pulse their jams, you have fundamental misunderstanding of how a HOJ AMRAAM works since you keep saying it just goes ballistic if loses jam. If they pulse their jams they just make it so AMRAAM switches back and forth to active mode, and anyone with a radar on gets to intermittently see your assets.

3. F-22s start on an intercept course, but since they see your first from over 200 miles away they can vector in from any angle they need to. It's funny you think planes do not take advantage of superior situational awareness to get a better shot, they've been doing it for almost a hundred years. Some planes with a massive RF beacon flying blind while broadcasting their position are just asking for F-22s to approach from outside their forward sensors and shoot them down before they even know F-22s are in the sky.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Masses of little drones can hover or circle and await their chance. They can overcome by shear, cheap numbers. They don't have to eat, sleep, urinate. They can't be poisoned, blinded by lasers, or get distracted thinking about sex.
Remember WWII. The Sherman was no match for a Tiger, but four or five were and the U.S. produced enormous quantities the Germans couldn't come close to equaling. Unfortunately, the crews suffered horribly. Drones avoid that. There is nothing being sacrificed but some metal and circuitry.

Let me know when you build those and prove they actually work.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

We already know that they don't allow either the US Planes to exibit their capabilities out in the open.

Yet here you were earlier in this thread talking about the Russian plane jamming everything.

Again, (hear the echo) the only sure way to know the truth is to have a war between Russia and the US. Then the truth comes out fast. And neither side is willing to find out that way.

You don't need a war to validate basic principles of electronic warfare.

You must have a sooperdooper security clearance that you haven't told us about. Much higher than I ever held and I worked with Nukes and the F-15 Avionics. A couple of boxes still go into a safe room where they are serviced by Civilians with outlandish security clearances. If I knew what you think you know and I told you, I would have to kill you right before they killed me.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Your HOJ works only when the Jammer is active. If he is pulsing the jam your HOJ will lose signal and go ballistic. It's not like a Harm that can go into loiter mode and wait for the signal to come back on. So they pulse the signal in a way to prevent the HOJ.

You don't understand how an AMRAAM in HOJ works. It interlaces passive and active pulses to be able to switch back to active radar if the ECM source goes silent, it does not just go ballistic. You've also (again) argued against your premise that barrage jamming makes the entire airspace a WVR fight, if you're pulsing your barrage jamming opposing radars can get a good BVR view of where your assets are, in addition to the passive view they've got from the jamming. Meanwhile you're still blind.

Meanwhile, the F-22 is going to be in front of the jammer. He isn't going to mysteriously beam me up scotty behind the Russian Force. It doesn't work that way. Plus, both sides are going to begin the battle with Radar ON but quickly go to passive modes that reduces their sensors to about 35 miles. But you want the Russians to keep their Radar on at all times. Not going to happen considering, outside of the F-35, the SU-35 has the best forward sensors for IR out to about 35 miles. Ones again, you are pulling a Monopad routine where you give all the good stuff (both real and imagined) to your side while you cripple the other side. If the F-22 leaves his Radar on, chances are, he will be testing out if the new Russian AA Missiles do have the range they claim they do have. I doubt if the Pilot will want to take that chance. If he leaves his radar on HE stands out like a beacon in the night.

Why does the F-22 need to be in front of the jammer? I didn't know we were talking about some bizarre corner-case scenario where the F-22s who see the opposing force from over two hundred miles away are not allowed to change course to approach from an angle outside the frontal cones where their sensors are strongest.

You're also wrong about both sides going into the battle with active radars on, the F-22s will detect your RF (from either radar or jamming) from outside the range of either radar and won't be emitting anything.

You're also wrong about sensor range, F-22 can passively detect RF signals (like a jammer) at much greater range than a radar can detect anything, I already provided a source backing this up so when you say it's 35 miles you're just ignoring inconvenient facts. Again:

A target which is using radar to search for the F-22 or other friendly aircraft can be detected, tracked and identified by the ALR-94 long before its radar can see anything, at ranges of 250 nm or more

That jamming you keep talking about as some panacea of invulnerability? That's the RF source that you're pumping as much power as possible into, and that's what gets you tracked passively from far away. YOu don't need an active radar broadcasting RF to be picked up when your jamming to broadcast RF.


You're also wrong about me wanting to keep their radars on all the time, you're attributing something to me I didn't say, for probably the 5th time in this discussion. All those F-22s need to know where your planes are is for that jammer to be emitting. They'll pick it up from hundreds of miles away.

You're also wrong about me crippling either side, I'm responding to exactly how you say they'll operate.

Your conditions are, ALL Russian Fighters MUST fly with active radar. The Jammers must not pulse their jams. The F-22s can start the fight anywhere they wish by beaming to the appropriate location best suited to them.

False, false, false. I never said Russians must fly with active radar. I never said jammer cannot pulse their jams. I never said F-22s can start the fight anywhere they want. I'll try to describe my argument again since you misstate it pretty much every time.

1. F-22s passively detect the jammer. They don't need any active radars to be detected, the jamming source is all they need to know where the Russians are. They will detect this jammer from much greater range than their radars could pick them up, it's a fundamental aspect of RF that simply receiving a signal can be done at much greater distance than receiving the bounce return of one you sent. I'm not sure how I can make this any more clear, you can't seem to wrap your head around the fact that the jammer is what gives their position away. So F-22s know position of plane doing the jamming, but the jamming source is flying blind.

2. It doesn't matter if they pulse their jams, you have fundamental misunderstanding of how a HOJ AMRAAM works since you keep saying it just goes ballistic if loses jam. If they pulse their jams they just make it so AMRAAM switches back and forth to active mode, and anyone with a radar on gets to intermittently see your assets.

3. F-22s start on an intercept course, but since they see your first from over 200 miles away they can vector in from any angle they need to. It's funny you think planes do not take advantage of superior situational awareness to get a better shot, they've been doing it for almost a hundred years. Some planes with a massive RF beacon flying blind while broadcasting their position are just asking for F-22s to approach from outside their forward sensors and shoot them down before they even know F-22s are in the sky.

The only Fighter with ANY advantage in the opening salvo will be the F-22 and that will be very short lived. He only has so many missiles. When those are expended, he will have to withdraw. Otherwise, if something gets through, he won't be able to defend himself. The last thing a F-22 wants to get into is either an IR missile fight or a Gun to Gun fight. His contribution is much higher if he expends his stores and disengages to rearm. Same goes for the F-35 who has even fewer missiles. The bulk of the fighting will end up with a slugfest between the F-15s, F-16s, F-18s, Su-27s, and Mig-29s. With a few SU-30s thrown in. Unlike the F-22, these can expend their stores, disengage, rearm and return to battle 2 to 4 times on any given day. The F-22 will be lucky to be able to make one sortie per 3 days. After the opening salvo, the F-22 is no longer a factor since there just isn't very many of them and they can't all be everywhere at once. Meanwhile, the F-35 is going to be busy doing other chores that it's better suited for. So it boils down to the Gen 4 US Fighters slugging it out for air superiority after the first day. All your bells and whistles are done in a matter of minutes. This is a war that neither side yearns to fight as there will be NO winning side. And remember, both sides pretty much have equal toys with the exception of the F-22 and he won't be in the battle but for only a few minutes.

And both sides will use dirty jamming when they can get away with it or they think they can get away with it. The F-35 is very capable of doing that job and I imagine that at least one version of Russian Fighter can probably do that same job as well.

You keep forgetting that just because you are aware they are there doesn't mean you can effectively fire on them with any chance of success. In fact, if they are running without radar like they probably will be, you are going to have to fire yours up to do those long shots. It probably won't be the bird doing the lock that actually fires the missile but the missile and the lock can be defeated and you will have given away your own position on whatever bird did the scan and lock who has become a target themselves and will be fired on. The US doesn't have the range of the missiles cornered. Things are pretty well even in that respect. There are just too many things that can go wrong on both sides that will affect incoming missiles.

The pilots I have conversed with have all said that most fighters will go bingo before they can get an actual kill in this type of scenario after expending their payloads. A handful of Fighters on both sides may be damaged or shot down but everyone else will go home. The real winner will be the one that still has fighters with fuel and stores in the area after everyone else goes home.

If the US wins that day, it won't be any of the short range fighters or limited number fighters that will be still in the air. It's going to be the F-15C. If the Russians win the day, it's going to be the SU-27. And it might be sortie number 2 or 3 for any of the existing fighters left over.

You keep; simplifying the battle. It's just not the fighters what will be involved. There will be a host of other birds, ground installations and Satellites involved as well. The Russians are now starting to put their new S-500 into the field and we know NOTHING about it. We know we can defeat their S-300 but haven't seen the S-400 in operation as of yet.

You keep only allowing one type of Jammer. There are many different jammers including Stand Off Jammers that are completely out of the HOJ range. They stay just outside of the HOJ range and operate without fear of HOJ attack. Yes, it takes a lot of power. And right now, the only fighter with that kind of power that I know of is the F-35A. But if we have it, chances are, the Russians have an equivalent as well. To think otherwise is just plain foolish and suicidal. If the dirty jammer has enough power (enough electric power) then he can burn through your radar and you will have to get closer to burn through his jamming on the targets he is protecting. I suggest you read Chapter 11 COUNTERMEASURES It's interesting reading.

 

[DrainBamage]

You must have a sooperdooper security clearance that you haven't told us about.

If I had a security clearance, why would I tell you? I can argue a point without trying to use an appeal to authority fallacy.

 

[DrainBamage]

The only Fighter with ANY advantage in the opening salvo will be the F-22 and that will be very short lived. He only has so many missiles. When those are expended, he will have to withdraw. Otherwise, if something gets through, he won't be able to defend himself. The last thing a F-22 wants to get into is either an IR missile fight or a Gun to Gun fight. His contribution is much higher if he expends his stores and disengages to rearm.

Wrong, again. F-35 would have same advantage in detecting the jamming aircraft passively, thus having the massive advantage of knowing where it is while it doesn't even know F-35 is in the sky.

And both sides will use dirty jamming when they can get away with it or they think they can get away with it. The F-35 is very capable of doing that job and I imagine that at least one version of Russian Fighter can probably do that same job as well.

Wrong, again. It depends on what's in the fight, LO aircraft will avoid giving away their position by broadcasting RF. They know where this jamming aircraft is, but it doesn't even know they are in the sky, so they aren't going to start broadcasting.

You keep forgetting that just because you are aware they are there doesn't mean you can effectively fire on them with any chance of success. In fact, if they are running without radar like they probably will be, you are going to have to fire yours up to do those long shots. It probably won't be the bird doing the lock that actually fires the missile but the missile and the lock can be defeated and you will have given away your own position on whatever bird did the scan and lock who has become a target themselves and will be fired on. The US doesn't have the range of the missiles cornered. Things are pretty well even in that respect. There are just too many things that can go wrong on both sides that will affect incoming missiles

Wrong, again. It's already been explained to you but I'll repeat again... they can fire on that jamming source with HOJ AMRAAM, they don't need to turn on their radar to do it because F-35s and F-22s can passively detect and target opposing aircraft that are giving away their position by broadcasting RF. They don't have to give away their position.

If they did want to take a look there could be one F-22 using it's radar in LPI at lowest power needed and in a very narrow beam cued to where all this RF noise is coming from, while his wingman comes around to put an AMRAAM up their tailpipe that they never saw coming until it goes bulldog then the only thing they are focused on doing is trying to survive, and ending up in an even worse position if they do survive that first shot.

You keep only allowing one type of Jammer.

Wrong, again. I've taken the time to explain why to you why deception jamming with will with barrage jamming from same source. It relies on a sending an RF signal that mimics the radar return, but if you're barrage jamming you can't do that.

There are many different jammers including Stand Off Jammers that are completely out of the HOJ range. They stay just outside of the HOJ range and operate without fear of HOJ attack.

I know how standoff jamming works, but it's used primarily used against fixed targets (like IADS components on the ground) because it requires a directed RF attack meant to disrupt a specific target's radar and the jamming source must be in-line with both the aircraft it's protecting and the enemy radar. In other words, you have to have a target radar that you're masking something from.

They cannot implement standoff jamming against an F-22 or F-35 because they have no idea if they are present or where they are located. Standoff jammers are also used primarily against IADS components because they have a known location so the standoff jammer can manage their range to stay out of harm's way, that isn't possible against a supersonic stealth fighter that could be coming from any direction.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

You must have a sooperdooper security clearance that you haven't told us about.

If I had a security clearance, why would I tell you? I can argue a point without trying to use an appeal to authority fallacy.

You seem to be trying to treat me like you would Monobreath. While I generally agree with much of what you say, not this time. You are showing two traits that lose wars; naivity and arrogance.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The only Fighter with ANY advantage in the opening salvo will be the F-22 and that will be very short lived. He only has so many missiles. When those are expended, he will have to withdraw. Otherwise, if something gets through, he won't be able to defend himself. The last thing a F-22 wants to get into is either an IR missile fight or a Gun to Gun fight. His contribution is much higher if he expends his stores and disengages to rearm.

Wrong, again. F-35 would have same advantage in detecting the jamming aircraft passively, thus having the massive advantage of knowing where it is while it doesn't even know F-35 is in the sky.

And both sides will use dirty jamming when they can get away with it or they think they can get away with it. The F-35 is very capable of doing that job and I imagine that at least one version of Russian Fighter can probably do that same job as well.

Wrong, again. It depends on what's in the fight, LO aircraft will avoid giving away their position by broadcasting RF. They know where this jamming aircraft is, but it doesn't even know they are in the sky, so they aren't going to start broadcasting.

You keep forgetting that just because you are aware they are there doesn't mean you can effectively fire on them with any chance of success. In fact, if they are running without radar like they probably will be, you are going to have to fire yours up to do those long shots. It probably won't be the bird doing the lock that actually fires the missile but the missile and the lock can be defeated and you will have given away your own position on whatever bird did the scan and lock who has become a target themselves and will be fired on. The US doesn't have the range of the missiles cornered. Things are pretty well even in that respect. There are just too many things that can go wrong on both sides that will affect incoming missiles

Wrong, again. It's already been explained to you but I'll repeat again... they can fire on that jamming source with HOJ AMRAAM, they don't need to turn on their radar to do it because F-35s and F-22s can passively detect and target opposing aircraft that are giving away their position by broadcasting RF. They don't have to give away their position.

If they did want to take a look there could be one F-22 using it's radar in LPI at lowest power needed and in a very narrow beam cued to where all this RF noise is coming from, while his wingman comes around to put an AMRAAM up their tailpipe that they never saw coming until it goes bulldog then the only thing they are focused on doing is trying to survive, and ending up in an even worse position if they do survive that first shot.

You keep only allowing one type of Jammer.

Wrong, again. I've taken the time to explain why to you why deception jamming with will with barrage jamming from same source. It relies on a sending an RF signal that mimics the radar return, but if you're barrage jamming you can't do that.

There are many different jammers including Stand Off Jammers that are completely out of the HOJ range. They stay just outside of the HOJ range and operate without fear of HOJ attack.

I know how standoff jamming works, but it's used primarily used against fixed targets (like IADS components on the ground) because it requires a directed RF attack meant to disrupt a specific target's radar and the jamming source must be in-line with both the aircraft it's protecting and the enemy radar. In other words, you have to have a target radar that you're masking something from.

They cannot implement standoff jamming against an F-22 or F-35 because they have no idea if they are present or where they are located. Standoff jammers are also used primarily against IADS components because they have a known location so the standoff jammer can manage their range to stay out of harm's way, that isn't possible against a supersonic stealth fighter that could be coming from any direction.

So the Russians only gets one SOJammer while you get unlimited F-22s and F-35s. Thank you for allowing them to have that one. Chances are, it won't be a fighter doing the SOJ. It's going to be a much larger, more powerful signal aircraft. The US will be doing the same with the ECs. There is going to be sections in the battlefield that will be completely void of detection on both sides. You can spew all your BS but in the end, both sides are equipped to fight this type of battle and if any enemy Fighter gets within 35 miles of a F-22 or a F-35, the US Fighters can, and probably will, be fired on. It takes only a few minutes of closure at Mach 1.6 to close from 80 miles to 35 miles. The US is going to be doing much the same thing. Dirty Jammers that are just outside of your launch range coming from different angles leaves voids and in those voids, the 4th gen fighters can operate. You seem to think that Stealth is the panacea of all things. Newsflash: When a fighter with a good IR Detector that can target gets within launch stealth doesn't mean a damned thing.

So keep spewing. If enough battles are lost by arrogance and selling the enemy as short as you are doing then the war is lost.

 

[DrainBamage]

You seem to be trying to treat me like you would Monobreath. While I generally agree with much of what you say, not this time. You are showing two traits that lose wars; naivity and arrogance.

Expressing skepticism on your claim that an ECM jammer can turn the battlespace into a WVR fight is hardly arrogance, especially given that you've been completely unable to come close to saying how.

 

[DrainBamage]

So the Russians only gets one SOJammer while you get unlimited F-22s and F-35s. Thank you for allowing them to have that one.

Nope, you're misstating what I said yet again. Not once did I say there are unlimited F-22s/F-35s, and not once did I say they get on standoff jammer. I really should do a summary of every argument you've attributed to me that I never made, there has been one in almost every post you've made. Terrible habit.

Chances are, it won't be a fighter doing the SOJ. It's going to be a much larger, more powerful signal aircraft. The US will be doing the same with the ECs. There is going to be sections in the battlefield that will be completely void of detection on both sides.

So you have some large aircraft flying in behind some fighter aircraft that is doing standoff jamming in the direction those planes are flying, and you're just going to hope that any enemy aircraft that you cannot see will happen to be directly ahead of your fighter aircraft so they fall within it's noise cone so that the fighters will be protected. They would have detected you from very far away passively due to your RF noise and know your course, but nah they won't take advantage of this to approach at any advantageous angle they have no choice but to intercept from ahead of you where your sensors would be strongest. You're also going to hope they don't decide to just target this big slow aircraft that is doing the standoff jamming, since unlike with IADS components on the ground the fighters can move at supersonic speeds to close the range to the jamming source.

Sorry dude but you clearly don't understand how standoff jamming works, which is why this fantastic scenario you're constructing is so funny.

You can spew all your BS but in the end, both sides are equipped to fight this type of battle and if any enemy Fighter gets within 35 miles of a F-22 or a F-35, the US Fighters can, and probably will, be fired on.

False, they can be 35 miles from an F-22 and not even know it's there until the AMRAAM coming up their tailpipe goes active.

It takes only a few minutes of closure at Mach 1.6 to close from 80 miles to 35 miles. The US is going to be doing much the same thing. Dirty Jammers that are just outside of your launch range coming from different angles leaves voids and in those voids, the 4th gen fighters can operate.

Closing to what? In this bizarre hypothetical you've built the Russian planes are flying blind so don't even know there are F-22s or F-35s in the sky to try to close a distance on. You keep forgetting that you're saying the Russians are broadcasting the position of the jamming aircraft so the F-22s and F-35s can track and target them passively, you have absolutely zero information that anything else is in the sky.

You say the US is going to be doing the same but that is nothing more than a desperate attempt to rationalize a way that your scenario works, F-22s and F-35s do everything they can to manage their RF emissions and retain the situational awareness advantage. If they see this RF source (jammer) they are going to silently approach it from a rear quarter angle for a kill and splash it. You really need to open up your mind on tactics with stealth aircraft and passive detection, you seem to be stuck in the 70s here. Hey they can't see us but we can see them, so let's start jamming so we're even. Nope.

You seem to think that Stealth is the panacea of all things. Newsflash: When a fighter with a good IR Detector that can target gets within launch stealth doesn't mean a damned thing.

Nope, never said that but I hey you're arguing for me again, surprise surprise!

Stealth isn't a panacea, but it combined with 5th gen sensor suits it allows for some tactics that you can't even allow yourself to consider are useful. Passive detection and tracking, coming in unseen for a kill shot. You greatly overestimate how useful an IR detector is when you don't even know where to look or whether any opposing aircraft are in the sky. Go read about Typhoons with Pirate IRST in exercises against F-22s, the only time they had a chance was when scenarios were tested where the fighters were intentionally put in WVR situations, in the open sky they were killed just like everyone else without even knowing where the F-22 was that killed them. IRST isn't 360 degree coverage, and another aircraft that knows your course doesn't need to approach from your front field of view where all your sensors are strongest.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

You seem to be trying to treat me like you would Monobreath. While I generally agree with much of what you say, not this time. You are showing two traits that lose wars; naivity and arrogance.

Expressing skepticism on your claim that an ECM jammer can turn the battlespace into a WVR fight is hardly arrogance, especially given that you've been completely unable to come close to saying how.

And you are saying that there is a 100% chance it can't happen. Now, that's arrogance if I ever heard of it.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

So the Russians only gets one SOJammer while you get unlimited F-22s and F-35s. Thank you for allowing them to have that one.

Nope, you're misstating what I said yet again. Not once did I say there are unlimited F-22s/F-35s, and not once did I say they get on standoff jammer. I really should do a summary of every argument you've attributed to me that I never made, there has been one in almost every post you've made. Terrible habit.

Chances are, it won't be a fighter doing the SOJ. It's going to be a much larger, more powerful signal aircraft. The US will be doing the same with the ECs. There is going to be sections in the battlefield that will be completely void of detection on both sides.

So you have some large aircraft flying in behind some fighter aircraft that is doing standoff jamming in the direction those planes are flying, and you're just going to hope that any enemy aircraft that you cannot see will happen to be directly ahead of your fighter aircraft so they fall within it's noise cone so that the fighters will be protected. They would have detected you from very far away passively due to your RF noise and know your course, but nah they won't take advantage of this to approach at any advantageous angle they have no choice but to intercept from ahead of you where your sensors would be strongest. You're also going to hope they don't decide to just target this big slow aircraft that is doing the standoff jamming, since unlike with IADS components on the ground the fighters can move at supersonic speeds to close the range to the jamming source.

Sorry dude but you clearly don't understand how standoff jamming works, which is why this fantastic scenario you're constructing is so funny.

You can spew all your BS but in the end, both sides are equipped to fight this type of battle and if any enemy Fighter gets within 35 miles of a F-22 or a F-35, the US Fighters can, and probably will, be fired on.

False, they can be 35 miles from an F-22 and not even know it's there until the AMRAAM coming up their tailpipe goes active.

It takes only a few minutes of closure at Mach 1.6 to close from 80 miles to 35 miles. The US is going to be doing much the same thing. Dirty Jammers that are just outside of your launch range coming from different angles leaves voids and in those voids, the 4th gen fighters can operate.

Closing to what? In this bizarre hypothetical you've built the Russian planes are flying blind so don't even know there are F-22s or F-35s in the sky to try to close a distance on. You keep forgetting that you're saying the Russians are broadcasting the position of the jamming aircraft so the F-22s and F-35s can track and target them passively, you have absolutely zero information that anything else is in the sky.

You say the US is going to be doing the same but that is nothing more than a desperate attempt to rationalize a way that your scenario works, F-22s and F-35s do everything they can to manage their RF emissions and retain the situational awareness advantage. If they see this RF source (jammer) they are going to silently approach it from a rear quarter angle for a kill and splash it. You really need to open up your mind on tactics with stealth aircraft and passive detection, you seem to be stuck in the 70s here. Hey they can't see us but we can see them, so let's start jamming so we're even. Nope.

You seem to think that Stealth is the panacea of all things. Newsflash: When a fighter with a good IR Detector that can target gets within launch stealth doesn't mean a damned thing.

Nope, never said that but I hey you're arguing for me again, surprise surprise!

Stealth isn't a panacea, but it combined with 5th gen sensor suits it allows for some tactics that you can't even allow yourself to consider are useful. Passive detection and tracking, coming in unseen for a kill shot. You greatly overestimate how useful an IR detector is when you don't even know where to look or whether any opposing aircraft are in the sky. Go read about Typhoons with Pirate IRST in exercises against F-22s, the only time they had a chance was when scenarios were tested where the fighters were intentionally put in WVR situations, in the open sky they were killed just like everyone else without even knowing where the F-22 was that killed them. IRST isn't 360 degree coverage, and another aircraft that knows your course doesn't need to approach from your front field of view where all your sensors are strongest.

And you are saying that Stealth is infallible. Hence the 17 to 1 rate for the F-35. That means that once the stealth was defeated and so was the F-35. And the SU-35 and SU-27 is much better at IR detection than the F-18 or the F-15 is. And the bag of avionics sensors on the SU-35 is better than the F-18, 16 or 15 is right now. And we are talking right now. And, once again, you are allowing only one enemy aircraft to do the searching. It doesn't work that way. How Monoboy of you.

 

[DrainBamage]

And you are saying that there is a 100% chance it can't happen. Now, that's arrogance if I ever heard of it.

No, I'm saying I'm skeptical that it's possible to turn a battlespace into a WVR fight using barrage jamming. Given you've been unable to explain how it could be done, I have no reason to alter this viewpoint.

 

[DrainBamage]

And you are saying that Stealth is infallible

Reread the last few pages of this thread if your memory is so short. I clearly stated that stealth is no panacea, yet you keep going to this strawman fallacy of trying to equate someone pointing out it's advantages and tactics to it being infallible.

Hence the 17 to 1 rate for the F-35. That means that once the stealth was defeated and so was the F-35.

And here is part two of the strawman fallacy... above you create an argument I never made, then here you attack what you created. You do it pretty much every post, it's funny.

And the SU-35 and SU-27 is much better at IR detection than the F-18 or the F-15 is. And the bag of avionics sensors on the SU-35 is better than the F-18, 16 or 15 is right now. And we are talking right now.

Okay, what are the specifics of the IR system used by aggressor F-16s, and how do they compare to the system used on the SU-27? The SU-27s might be "much better" I have no idea but to state this as fact you must have amazing insight into the actual technical specifications of the IRST system they use in Red Flag to simulate Russian fighters. So let's hear it, how is it so much better? What kind do the F-16s fly with?

Of course all this is irrelevant because my position has been that it won't become an IR fight if a group of Russian planes are flying along throwing out as much RF noise as they can trying to jam targets they don't know exist. I've explained how F-22s and F-35s would be able to track their location passively and approach from a rear quarter where to avoid frontal sensors and shoot them out of the sky. However you just keep ignoring this since you can't refute it, and talking about frontal aspect IR detectors with short ranges.

What are your thoughts on Typhoons with IRST getting chewed up by F-22s at BVR? I'd be happy to source interviews with German pilots stating that despite having that IR sensor they couldn't find the F-22s and got shot down every time without even knowing they were being targeted.

And, once again, you are allowing only one enemy aircraft to do the searching. It doesn't work that way. How Monoboy of you.

False, you're misstating my position for about the 10th time. I'm "allowing" them to search all they want, my argument is since they are broadcasting RF they will be detected from much farther away passively by F-22s while far outside effective range of IR sensors, which can then approach from advantageous angles to shoot an AMRAAM up their tailpipe before they even know an F-22 is targeting them. First look, first shot, first kill. I'm in awe of how naive you are about the advantages of knowing where your opponent is and where they are heading well before they know you're even there.

I know await you, being unable to explain away this, to reframe waht I said as something completely different like you do in every single post of this discussion. What's it going to be this time, claiming I said F-22s get to magically appear anywhere they want? Claiming I believe stealth is unbeatable? Claiming I said Russian planes aren't allowed to use their sensors? What's the next straw man from Darryl?

 

[Daryl Hunt]

And you are saying that there is a 100% chance it can't happen. Now, that's arrogance if I ever heard of it.

No, I'm saying I'm skeptical that it's possible to turn a battlespace into a WVR fight using barrage jamming. Given you've been unable to explain how it could be done, I have no reason to alter this viewpoint.

Use your imagination. Open your mind and close your mouth, not the other way around. The fact remains, jamming works like Stealth in many ways. It's not fool proof. But it does make the combatants have to get closer to each other in order to effectively fight. Stealth can be somewhat combated by jamming and jamming can be somewhat combated by stealth. Using Logic and Physics, that means the combatants will have to be closer to engage each other. The one that does it the best will be further away. You can't change science no matter how locked in you get.

During Vietnam, the US did it routinely with both Ground and Aircraft using EC birds. During Desert Storm and the one before that, it was done routinely by the US. It's done today in Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq. These are all Stand Off Jammers that can even take out cell phones operation. Not just listen in on the Cell Phone but cripple them as well. And you don't just use one bird to do it. You position a number of them to cover a large area where you have blind spots that 4th Gen birds can operate in and it also allows 5th gen to get even closer. But even so, at some point, the signals you are jamming will overpower the jamming signal the closer your birds get to the source. At that point, the 4th gens can be fired on first. And then the 5th gens can be fired on even closer. You may even have to use a fighter like the F-35 to do a short burst to blind a site that is stronger than the rest that has accomplished a lockon and maybe fire solution for a few minutes while it's being taken out. Not all sites will have the same range, power or capability. And neither will all Aircraft. But the EC-135 and EC-130 will be allowing the Fighters and Bombers to get a bit closer. Meanwhile, the Russians will be doing exactly the same thing with their IL birds. Then we are going to add in the Command Posts of both sides with extremely powerful radar that is just outside of launch range of the enemies attack missiles. Then we are going to keep adding in more variables. Some measures will work like you believe they must. But others will not. In the end, it's going to be a slug fest and there may even be losses of Tankers, EC and ILs in the mix. You keep forgetting (or in convenience) that both sides will be fairly evenly matched and that is what keeps it from happening. Parity means that neither side can have a decisive win so neither side instigates the battle.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

And you are saying that Stealth is infallible

Reread the last few pages of this thread if your memory is so short. I clearly stated that stealth is no panacea, yet you keep going to this strawman fallacy of trying to equate someone pointing out it's advantages and tactics to it being infallible.

Hence the 17 to 1 rate for the F-35. That means that once the stealth was defeated and so was the F-35.

And here is part two of the strawman fallacy... above you create an argument I never made, then here you attack what you created. You do it pretty much every post, it's funny.

And the SU-35 and SU-27 is much better at IR detection than the F-18 or the F-15 is. And the bag of avionics sensors on the SU-35 is better than the F-18, 16 or 15 is right now. And we are talking right now.

Okay, what are the specifics of the IR system used by aggressor F-16s, and how do they compare to the system used on the SU-27? The SU-27s might be "much better" I have no idea but to state this as fact you must have amazing insight into the actual technical specifications of the IRST system they use in Red Flag to simulate Russian fighters. So let's hear it, how is it so much better? What kind do the F-16s fly with?

Of course all this is irrelevant because my position has been that it won't become an IR fight if a group of Russian planes are flying along throwing out as much RF noise as they can trying to jam targets they don't know exist. I've explained how F-22s and F-35s would be able to track their location passively and approach from a rear quarter where to avoid frontal sensors and shoot them out of the sky. However you just keep ignoring this since you can't refute it, and talking about frontal aspect IR detectors with short ranges.

What are your thoughts on Typhoons with IRST getting chewed up by F-22s at BVR? I'd be happy to source interviews with German pilots stating that despite having that IR sensor they couldn't find the F-22s and got shot down every time without even knowing they were being targeted.

And, once again, you are allowing only one enemy aircraft to do the searching. It doesn't work that way. How Monoboy of you.

False, you're misstating my position for about the 10th time. I'm "allowing" them to search all they want, my argument is since they are broadcasting RF they will be detected from much farther away passively by F-22s while far outside effective range of IR sensors, which can then approach from advantageous angles to shoot an AMRAAM up their tailpipe before they even know an F-22 is targeting them. First look, first shot, first kill. I'm in awe of how naive you are about the advantages of knowing where your opponent is and where they are heading well before they know you're even there.

I know await you, being unable to explain away this, to reframe waht I said as something completely different like you do in every single post of this discussion. What's it going to be this time, claiming I said F-22s get to magically appear anywhere they want? Claiming I believe stealth is unbeatable? Claiming I said Russian planes aren't allowed to use their sensors? What's the next straw man from Darryl?

You keep allowing only one Russian Aircraft against a sky full of F-22s and F-35s. And you don't allow the Russians to use the IL systems. Both sides are about equal and it very well might get things down to 35 to 40 miles distance which the Russians have an advantage in numbers alone. The US is just now starting to equip the F-22 and the F-15 with IR Pods. The numbers are very low. And we are talking about right now, not some time in the future. If you want to allow the Future, that means I get to use all the crap that Monobreath wants to throw in as well. Beam Me Up Scotty.

 

[DrainBamage]

The fact remains, jamming works like Stealth in many ways. It's not fool proof. But it does make the combatants have to get closer to each other in order to effectively fight. Stealth can be somewhat combated by jamming and jamming can be somewhat combated by stealth. Using Logic and Physics, that means the combatants will have to be closer to engage each other. The one that does it the best will be further away. You can't change science no matter how locked in you get.

You keep saying this, but have yet to be able to articulate how jamming makes it a WVR fight. I've explained numerous times how jamming assets can be engaged from BVR. It seems you realize whatever scenario you're constructing makes no sense, run off to google, then come back shouting something new like "standoff jamming" without even grasping how that is employed and why it makes no sense for what you're trying to accomplish.

During Vietnam, the US did it routinely with both Ground and Aircraft using EC birds. During Desert Storm and the one before that, it was done routinely by the US. It's done today in Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq. These are all Stand Off Jammers that can even take out cell phones operation. Not just listen in on the Cell Phone but cripple them as well. And you don't just use one bird to do it. You position a number of them to cover a large area where you have blind spots that 4th Gen birds can operate in and it also allows 5th gen to get even closer. But even so, at some point, the signals you are jamming will overpower the jamming signal the closer your birds get to the source. At that point, the 4th gens can be fired on first. And then the 5th gens can be fired on even closer. You may even have to use a fighter like the F-35 to do a short burst to blind a site that is stronger than the rest that has accomplished a lockon and maybe fire solution for a few minutes while it's being taken out. Not all sites will have the same range, power or capability. And neither will all Aircraft. But the EC-135 and EC-130 will be allowing the Fighters and Bombers to get a bit closer. Meanwhile, the Russians will be doing exactly the same thing with their IL birds. Then we are going to add in the Command Posts of both sides with extremely powerful radar that is just outside of launch range of the enemies attack missiles. Then we are going to keep adding in more variables. Some measures will work like you believe they must. But others will not. In the end, it's going to be a slug fest and there may even be losses of Tankers, EC and ILs in the mix.

Lots of great history information here, but the fact USA can do jamming does not mean an F-22 or F-35 is going to purposely give away it's position by engaging in jamming against an opposing aircraft that isn't even using it's radar and for which it already has situational awareness advantage. You keep trying to pigeonhole this scenario into something that works for your logic, and it keeps failing.

You keep forgetting (or in convenience) that both sides will be fairly evenly matched and that is what keeps it from happening. Parity means that neither side can have a decisive win so neither side instigates the battle.

1. False. I'm not forgetting and haven't made anything unevenly matched, not once have I said there are more USA birds or more Russian birds this is just you doing what you've done in every post: manufacture something to argue against.

 

[DrainBamage]

You keep allowing only one Russian Aircraft against a sky full of F-22s and F-35s. And you don't allow the Russians to use the IL systems.

False, false, false. No matter how many times you tell this lie it's false.

I have never said there is only one Russian aircraft, I have never said there is a sky full of F-22s and F-35s, and I have never said anyone can't use any sensor. You have an interesting habit of whenever it is explained to you how something would be countered you suddenly invent a completely different argument because you can't figure out to support your position against what was actually said. Examples:

Drain: The IRST would be ineffective because F-22 detected you from BVR so can close from the rear outside it's FOV
Darryl: Omigod you're saying they aren't allowed to use IRST sensors!

Drain: Deception jamming wouldn't work in same area as barrage jamming since deception couldn't send out the false signal in that noise environment
Darryl: Omigod you're limiting them to only one jammer!

Drain: Standoff jamming is done on static ground targets since jamming plane must maintain vector aligning the plane it's masking and the target radar
Darryl: Omigod you're only allowing one plane for the Russians!

Drain: Russians wouldn't be trying to close on the F-22s because you said they were flying without radar on, they are blind and don't know F-22s are there
Darryl: Omigod you're allowing a sky full of F-22s

Your notions about how air combat would play out being incorrect and me explaining why is entirely different than all this BS about me artificially limiting either side.

Both sides are about equal and it very well might get things down to 35 to 40 miles distance which the Russians have an advantage in numbers alone. The US is just now starting to equip the F-22 and the F-15 with IR Pods. The numbers are very low. And we are talking about right now, not some time in the future. If you want to allow the Future, that means I get to use all the crap that Monobreath wants to throw in as well. Beam Me Up Scotty.

Still waiting on your information on how SU-27 has superior IRST than what F-22s have trained against with Typhoons and F-16s. You stated with authority that the Russian system is better, yet when asked for specifics you're suddenly off on yet another tangent. It's funny you mentioning Manonthestreet so much, you're doing the exact same thing... stating something then dropping it like a hot potato when corned on it.

 

[DrainBamage]

In fact since you've purposely exaggerated just about every argument I've made about why what you're saying wouldn't work, I'll go ahead and clarify in this post and refer to it going forward. That way when you state what I "believe" it will be easier to set you straight.

1. I'm not saying there is only one or a limited number of Russian jets

2. I'm not saying Russians cannot use radars or IR sensors, they can use whatever they want

3. I'm not saying Russians only get one jammer, you can include as many as you want

4. I'm not saying unlimited USA jets in the skies

5. I'm not saying stealth is infallible

I'm sure you'll think of another straw man argument, and equally sure you're repeat these, but we'll just add to the list as you continue to make them up.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The fact remains, jamming works like Stealth in many ways. It's not fool proof. But it does make the combatants have to get closer to each other in order to effectively fight. Stealth can be somewhat combated by jamming and jamming can be somewhat combated by stealth. Using Logic and Physics, that means the combatants will have to be closer to engage each other. The one that does it the best will be further away. You can't change science no matter how locked in you get.

You keep saying this, but have yet to be able to articulate how jamming makes it a WVR fight. I've explained numerous times how jamming assets can be engaged from BVR. It seems you realize whatever scenario you're constructing makes no sense, run off to google, then come back shouting something new like "standoff jamming" without even grasping how that is employed and why it makes no sense for what you're trying to accomplish.

During Vietnam, the US did it routinely with both Ground and Aircraft using EC birds. During Desert Storm and the one before that, it was done routinely by the US. It's done today in Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq. These are all Stand Off Jammers that can even take out cell phones operation. Not just listen in on the Cell Phone but cripple them as well. And you don't just use one bird to do it. You position a number of them to cover a large area where you have blind spots that 4th Gen birds can operate in and it also allows 5th gen to get even closer. But even so, at some point, the signals you are jamming will overpower the jamming signal the closer your birds get to the source. At that point, the 4th gens can be fired on first. And then the 5th gens can be fired on even closer. You may even have to use a fighter like the F-35 to do a short burst to blind a site that is stronger than the rest that has accomplished a lockon and maybe fire solution for a few minutes while it's being taken out. Not all sites will have the same range, power or capability. And neither will all Aircraft. But the EC-135 and EC-130 will be allowing the Fighters and Bombers to get a bit closer. Meanwhile, the Russians will be doing exactly the same thing with their IL birds. Then we are going to add in the Command Posts of both sides with extremely powerful radar that is just outside of launch range of the enemies attack missiles. Then we are going to keep adding in more variables. Some measures will work like you believe they must. But others will not. In the end, it's going to be a slug fest and there may even be losses of Tankers, EC and ILs in the mix.

Lots of great history information here, but the fact USA can do jamming does not mean an F-22 or F-35 is going to purposely give away it's position by engaging in jamming against an opposing aircraft that isn't even using it's radar and for which it already has situational awareness advantage. You keep trying to pigeonhole this scenario into something that works for your logic, and it keeps failing.

You keep forgetting (or in convenience) that both sides will be fairly evenly matched and that is what keeps it from happening. Parity means that neither side can have a decisive win so neither side instigates the battle.

1. False. I'm not forgetting and haven't made anything unevenly matched, not once have I said there are more USA birds or more Russian birds this is just you doing what you've done in every post: manufacture something to argue against.

You can stop this anytime you wish. I am NOT Monobreath. You can try and change the subject, red herring and more all you wish but I have the experience and you don't and can look back at the history of the United States Air Force without Google or any other help. I also have an extensive background in Military Air History that you don't have. So keep going. The more you dig, the deeper the hole. You may wish to just stop digging sometime.