Fast & Furious isn't going away

[JoeB131]

Time for a Special Prosecutor to find out,

quit this "Obama didnt know cause i said so" crap being spewed by the drones here.

LIAMD

I'm really reluctant on that one...

Historically, you look at these guys- Lawrence Walsh, Kenneth Starr, Patrick Fitzgerald, and they usually resolve the case they are investigating in about a week, but they have to get someone on something, so they keep investigating until they find something they can charge someone with in court.

How did Lawrence Walsh go from investigating weapons sold to Iran to whether Cap Weinberger thought his meeting notes were a diary or not?

How did we get to a failed land deal to whether Clinton lied about a blow job?

How did we get from exposing a woman who was not really a spy to whether Scooter Libby lied about what he said to Tim Russert.

You do make some very valid points about Special Prosecutors. All that Money spent on the Libby Conviction was pretty pathetic. This scandal seems much worse though. Many innocent people were murdered with these weapons,including an American Border Agent. So if there ever was a case for appointing a Special Prosecutor,this is it. But i do acknowledge your good point.

I would agree it would be needed if it was ONLY limited to this alone. Not, "let's go after bit player #5 who was less than candid in his interview." because everyone plays cover your ass when talking to any inspector, investigator or prosecutor.

But, yeah, I think the only way to get to the bottom of this is to have some kind of impartial investigation.

 

[JoeB131]

Fast and Furious grew out of Gunrunner. It's been going on for quite some time. And again, I've pointed to other law enforcement programs that have resulted in the deaths of innocent civilians.

And in most of those cases, there were complete investigations, and even if no wrongdoing was found, the people in charge usually tendered their resignations. So if you really want to go with the "Obama isn't the only guy whose ineptitude got innocent people killed" tact, I don't think that's going to be very productive for you.

Nor do you have the problem with the multiple violations of indivdual privacy that really was a part of the Bush administration.

Nope. I don't. There were no more terrorist attacks on American Soil after we started doing that.

If this were a part of an indictment of law enforcement over-reach, I would say bully for you..and lets close down some of these programs that are dangerous and may be unconstitutional.

It isn't.

It's yet another conflation of some percieved failure of the Obama administration..and a pathetic one at that.

Oh, please, guy. the problem here was that Obama took a political position. We need tighter gun laws to stop the cartels from getting weapons because they buy most of their weapons here. Gun Rights groups pointed out most cartel weapons come from corrupt Mexican police and military officials. Not good enough for Obama. He had to PROVE that they were getting their guns at gun shows by funnelling guns to them and then "losing track" of them.

In short, the incompetence sprang from a political agenda, not that someone wasn't crossing his t's and dotting his i's.

 

[oreo]

Fast and Furious grew out of Gunrunner. It's been going on for quite some time. And again, I've pointed to other law enforcement programs that have resulted in the deaths of innocent civilians.

And in most of those cases, there were complete investigations, and even if no wrongdoing was found, the people in charge usually tendered their resignations. So if you really want to go with the "Obama isn't the only guy whose ineptitude got innocent people killed" tact, I don't think that's going to be very productive for you.

Nor do you have the problem with the multiple violations of indivdual privacy that really was a part of the Bush administration.

Nope. I don't. There were no more terrorist attacks on American Soil after we started doing that.

If this were a part of an indictment of law enforcement over-reach, I would say bully for you..and lets close down some of these programs that are dangerous and may be unconstitutional.

It isn't.

It's yet another conflation of some percieved failure of the Obama administration..and a pathetic one at that.

Oh, please, guy. the problem here was that Obama took a political position. We need tighter gun laws to stop the cartels from getting weapons because they buy most of their weapons here. Gun Rights groups pointed out most cartel weapons come from corrupt Mexican police and military officials. Not good enough for Obama. He had to PROVE that they were getting their guns at gun shows by funnelling guns to them and then "losing track" of them.

In short, the incompetence sprang from a political agenda, not that someone wasn't crossing his t's and dotting his i's.

AGREED--the smoking gun is right in Eric Holder and Obama's hands. They perpetrated this Fast and Furious program in an attempt to ban these weapons for sale in the United States.

There is no one STUPID enough to deliver semi-automatic weapons to Mexican drug cartels--UNLESS you have an alternative motive.

 

[geauxtohell]

I don't know what to believe about this to be frank. Gross incompetence doesn't even come close to what occured. There was a wilful avoidance of legal protocols. That is something that can't be swept under a rug.....no matter how hard Holder tries to.

So when you have a belief on the matter. Let me know. I'll go with Occam's razor and choose the ever popular "incompetence" over a conspiracy.

They need to come clean. The cover up is always what get's people in trouble. I still see no indication that this was an assault on the second amendment or criminal conspiracy by the part of law enforcement.

They obviously intended to do some good, they obviously screwed it up.

I'd chalk it up to the ATF being less of an investigative branch and more of an enforcement branch. I'll bet, had they brought the FBI in on it, they'd been a lot more successful.

What "good" were they intending? I see no possible "good" outcome by funneling weapons into the hands of murderers. When you can come up with a possible "good" they were hoping to accomplish by all means do so. I am a firm follower of Mr. Occam. So according to Occam what possible outcome could they possibly have been hoping for?

To catch the Gringos that were supplying the guns to the cartel.

As it turns out, our gun laws in this country are so lax, the "gun runners" were a bunch of rube kids that had nothing to lose and weren't worth prosecuting.

Go figure.

The 2nd Amendment. Dig it.

I tell you what. I'll be all sour on the Holder crew if you admit that the 2nd amendment is a fucking joke that allows for the major trafficking of weapons from our country.

You can't have it both ways. Either you get your easy hard-on with our permissive weapons laws or you bemoan the fact that the only fucking thing in this country we still export are firearms.

 

[westwall]

So when you have a belief on the matter. Let me know. I'll go with Occam's razor and choose the ever popular "incompetence" over a conspiracy.

They need to come clean. The cover up is always what get's people in trouble. I still see no indication that this was an assault on the second amendment or criminal conspiracy by the part of law enforcement.

They obviously intended to do some good, they obviously screwed it up.

I'd chalk it up to the ATF being less of an investigative branch and more of an enforcement branch. I'll bet, had they brought the FBI in on it, they'd been a lot more successful.

What "good" were they intending? I see no possible "good" outcome by funneling weapons into the hands of murderers. When you can come up with a possible "good" they were hoping to accomplish by all means do so. I am a firm follower of Mr. Occam. So according to Occam what possible outcome could they possibly have been hoping for?

To catch the Gringos that were supplying the guns to the cartel.

As it turns out, our gun laws in this country are so lax, the "gun runners" were a bunch of rube kids that had nothing to lose and weren't worth prosecuting.

Go figure.

The 2nd Amendment. Dig it.

I tell you what. I'll be all sour on the Holder crew if you admit that the 2nd amendment is a fucking joke that allows for the major trafficking of weapons from our country.

You can't have it both ways. Either you get your easy hard-on with our permissive weapons laws or you bemoan the fact that the only fucking thing in this country we still export are firearms.

To catch gringos commiting crimes you have to gather evidence. There was ZERO attempt to gather evidence. The only thing the FEDS did was allow known felons to purchase weapons and ship them off to Mexico. Once the guns were out of the store they were in the wind. There was no way to tell where the went until they showed up at a crime scene.

Now, think real hard...real hard...what possible benefit is that for anyone? Tell me who can possibly benefit from that. Other then the murderers that is. They enjoyed the hell out of it.

 

[NGSamson]

So when you have a belief on the matter. Let me know. I'll go with Occam's razor and choose the ever popular "incompetence" over a conspiracy.

They need to come clean. The cover up is always what get's people in trouble. I still see no indication that this was an assault on the second amendment or criminal conspiracy by the part of law enforcement.

They obviously intended to do some good, they obviously screwed it up.

I'd chalk it up to the ATF being less of an investigative branch and more of an enforcement branch. I'll bet, had they brought the FBI in on it, they'd been a lot more successful.

What "good" were they intending? I see no possible "good" outcome by funneling weapons into the hands of murderers. When you can come up with a possible "good" they were hoping to accomplish by all means do so. I am a firm follower of Mr. Occam. So according to Occam what possible outcome could they possibly have been hoping for?

To catch the Gringos that were supplying the guns to the cartel.

As it turns out, our gun laws in this country are so lax, the "gun runners" were a bunch of rube kids that had nothing to lose and weren't worth prosecuting.

Go figure.

The 2nd Amendment. Dig it.

I tell you what. I'll be all sour on the Holder crew if you admit that the 2nd amendment is a fucking joke that allows for the major trafficking of weapons from our country.

You can't have it both ways. Either you get your easy hard-on with our permissive weapons laws or you bemoan the fact that the only fucking thing in this country we still export are firearms.

That doesn't make sense. They can get better guns cheaper and with less hassle from the Caribbean or other South American country's.

 

[oreo]

So when you have a belief on the matter. Let me know. I'll go with Occam's razor and choose the ever popular "incompetence" over a conspiracy.

They need to come clean. The cover up is always what get's people in trouble. I still see no indication that this was an assault on the second amendment or criminal conspiracy by the part of law enforcement.

They obviously intended to do some good, they obviously screwed it up.

I'd chalk it up to the ATF being less of an investigative branch and more of an enforcement branch. I'll bet, had they brought the FBI in on it, they'd been a lot more successful.

What "good" were they intending? I see no possible "good" outcome by funneling weapons into the hands of murderers. When you can come up with a possible "good" they were hoping to accomplish by all means do so. I am a firm follower of Mr. Occam. So according to Occam what possible outcome could they possibly have been hoping for?

To catch the Gringos that were supplying the guns to the cartel.

As it turns out, our gun laws in this country are so lax, the "gun runners" were a bunch of rube kids that had nothing to lose and weren't worth prosecuting.

Go figure.

The 2nd Amendment. Dig it.

I tell you what. I'll be all sour on the Holder crew if you admit that the 2nd amendment is a fucking joke that allows for the major trafficking of weapons from our country.

You can't have it both ways. Either you get your easy hard-on with our permissive weapons laws or you bemoan the fact that the only fucking thing in this country we still export are firearms.

Are you READING any of these links? It wasn't average law abiding citizens that own guns-- that were delivering weapons to Mexican drug cartels--it was "straw buyers" that the ATF (under Eric Holder) SET up to do.

Go do your homework and then you can make informed replies.

 

[oreo]

What "good" were they intending? I see no possible "good" outcome by funneling weapons into the hands of murderers. When you can come up with a possible "good" they were hoping to accomplish by all means do so. I am a firm follower of Mr. Occam. So according to Occam what possible outcome could they possibly have been hoping for?

To catch the Gringos that were supplying the guns to the cartel.

As it turns out, our gun laws in this country are so lax, the "gun runners" were a bunch of rube kids that had nothing to lose and weren't worth prosecuting.

Go figure.

The 2nd Amendment. Dig it.

I tell you what. I'll be all sour on the Holder crew if you admit that the 2nd amendment is a fucking joke that allows for the major trafficking of weapons from our country.

You can't have it both ways. Either you get your easy hard-on with our permissive weapons laws or you bemoan the fact that the only fucking thing in this country we still export are firearms.

That doesn't make sense. They can get better guns cheaper and with less hassle from the Caribbean or other South American country's.

The Caribbean doesn't have guns--nor are they accessible in south American countries---

 

[oreo]

What "good" were they intending? I see no possible "good" outcome by funneling weapons into the hands of murderers. When you can come up with a possible "good" they were hoping to accomplish by all means do so. I am a firm follower of Mr. Occam. So according to Occam what possible outcome could they possibly have been hoping for?

To catch the Gringos that were supplying the guns to the cartel.

As it turns out, our gun laws in this country are so lax, the "gun runners" were a bunch of rube kids that had nothing to lose and weren't worth prosecuting.

Go figure.

The 2nd Amendment. Dig it.

I tell you what. I'll be all sour on the Holder crew if you admit that the 2nd amendment is a fucking joke that allows for the major trafficking of weapons from our country.

You can't have it both ways. Either you get your easy hard-on with our permissive weapons laws or you bemoan the fact that the only fucking thing in this country we still export are firearms.

To catch gringos commiting crimes you have to gather evidence. There was ZERO attempt to gather evidence. The only thing the FEDS did was allow known felons to purchase weapons and ship them off to Mexico. Once the guns were out of the store they were in the wind. There was no way to tell where the went until they showed up at a crime scene.

Now, think real hard...real hard...what possible benefit is that for anyone? Tell me who can possibly benefit from that. Other then the murderers that is. They enjoyed the hell out of it.

Holy crap do you liberals ever READ a link? We know of the names of the straw buyers--in fact we know where they live--and obviously if they had a criminal record they would have never been able to purchase A GUN from a gun shop owner. The ATF set them up--and one ATF agent turned out to be the whistle blower in this operation--that is also backed up by gun shop owners.

And the smoking gun--is the weapon-- that was born out of the Fast and Furious program--that killed a United States Federal Agent.

Geez--this is BIGGER than the outing of Valeri Plume isn't it--- You liberals are freakin out over it.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

This will be the Albatross that finally rids us of the odious Holder and can't help but taint, Obama himself, with the stink of it!


A U.S. government gun-trafficking investigation gone horribly wrong has resulted in the death of a U.S. Border Patrol officer, some 2,000 firearms in the hands of criminals, and the dismissal of a 24-year veteran law enforcement official. This is the story of Fast and Furious, and yesterday the latest chapter unfolded when two top officials associated with the operation were removed from their positions, while a third individual resigned.

link

There was one objective for gunrunner and that was to destory the second Amedment.

WOW who would have thought obama got it right and fact check missed it?

Obama, April 16: A demand for these drugs in the United States is what is helping to keep these cartels in business. This war is being waged with guns purchased not here, but in the United States. More than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States, many from gun shops that line our shared border.
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/counting-mexicos-guns/
OH thats right obama should know because he knew about gunrunner fast and furious of course Am erican guns where found in Mexico because the obama adminastraition sold them to the drug cartail. All for banning and restricting guns for Americans.

 

[NGSamson]

To catch the Gringos that were supplying the guns to the cartel.

As it turns out, our gun laws in this country are so lax, the "gun runners" were a bunch of rube kids that had nothing to lose and weren't worth prosecuting.

Go figure.

The 2nd Amendment. Dig it.

I tell you what. I'll be all sour on the Holder crew if you admit that the 2nd amendment is a fucking joke that allows for the major trafficking of weapons from our country.

You can't have it both ways. Either you get your easy hard-on with our permissive weapons laws or you bemoan the fact that the only fucking thing in this country we still export are firearms.

That doesn't make sense. They can get better guns cheaper and with less hassle from the Caribbean or other South American country's.

The Caribbean doesn't have guns--nor are they accessible in south American countries---

You sure about that ?


So, if not from the U.S., where do they come from? There are a variety of sources:

-- The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.

-- Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.

- South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.

-- Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.

-- The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.

-- Guatemala. U.S. intelligence agencies say traffickers move immigrants, stolen cars, guns and drugs, including most of America's cocaine, along the porous Mexican-Guatemalan border. On March 27, La Hora, a Guatemalan newspaper, reported that police seized 500 grenades and a load of AK-47s on the border. Police say the cache was transported by a Mexican drug cartel operating out of Ixcan, a border town.

Read more: The Myth Of 90 Percent: Only A Small Fraction Of Guns In Mexico Come From U.S. | FoxNews.com

And Cuba is a Caribbean island, they ship guns to South America and they work there way north.

 

[oreo]

That doesn't make sense. They can get better guns cheaper and with less hassle from the Caribbean or other South American country's.

The Caribbean doesn't have guns--nor are they accessible in south American countries---

You sure about that ?


So, if not from the U.S., where do they come from? There are a variety of sources:

-- The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.

-- Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.

- South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.

-- Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.

-- The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.

-- Guatemala. U.S. intelligence agencies say traffickers move immigrants, stolen cars, guns and drugs, including most of America's cocaine, along the porous Mexican-Guatemalan border. On March 27, La Hora, a Guatemalan newspaper, reported that police seized 500 grenades and a load of AK-47s on the border. Police say the cache was transported by a Mexican drug cartel operating out of Ixcan, a border town.

Read more: The Myth Of 90 Percent: Only A Small Fraction Of Guns In Mexico Come From U.S. | FoxNews.com

And Cuba is a Caribbean island, they ship guns to South America and they work there way north.

1. The citizens of these countries ARE NOT allowed to own guns.
2. The easiest GUN route is right across the border--where it's citizens can own guns.

3. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC--BECAUSE WE KNOW THESE GUNS CAME FROM THE US--THROUGH THE FAST AND FURIOUS PROGRAM And one of these guns killed a US Federal Agent. THESE ARE THE FACTS WE KNOW.

 

[NGSamson]

The Caribbean doesn't have guns--nor are they accessible in south American countries---

You sure about that ?


So, if not from the U.S., where do they come from? There are a variety of sources:

-- The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.

-- Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.

- South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.

-- Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.

-- The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.

-- Guatemala. U.S. intelligence agencies say traffickers move immigrants, stolen cars, guns and drugs, including most of America's cocaine, along the porous Mexican-Guatemalan border. On March 27, La Hora, a Guatemalan newspaper, reported that police seized 500 grenades and a load of AK-47s on the border. Police say the cache was transported by a Mexican drug cartel operating out of Ixcan, a border town.

Read more: The Myth Of 90 Percent: Only A Small Fraction Of Guns In Mexico Come From U.S. | FoxNews.com

And Cuba is a Caribbean island, they ship guns to South America and they work there way north.

1. The citizens of these countries ARE NOT allowed to own guns.
2. The easiest GUN route is right across the border--where it's citizens can own guns.

3. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC--BECAUSE WE KNOW THESE GUNS CAME FROM THE US--THROUGH THE FAST AND FURIOUS PROGRAM>\ And one of these guns killed a US Federal Agent.

They are not guns that citizens would own. The drug dealers are not using bolt guns and 30-30's.They are military grade weapons. Mexican soldiers sell there guns to drug cartels to, but the bulk of the weapons sold to them come from the south up through Guatemala. And only a very few came through fast and furious.

 

[oreo]

That doesn't make sense. They can get better guns cheaper and with less hassle from the Caribbean or other South American country's.

The Caribbean doesn't have guns--nor are they accessible in south American countries---

You sure about that ?


So, if not from the U.S., where do they come from? There are a variety of sources:

-- The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.

-- Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.

- South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.

-- Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.

-- The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.

-- Guatemala. U.S. intelligence agencies say traffickers move immigrants, stolen cars, guns and drugs, including most of America's cocaine, along the porous Mexican-Guatemalan border. On March 27, La Hora, a Guatemalan newspaper, reported that police seized 500 grenades and a load of AK-47s on the border. Police say the cache was transported by a Mexican drug cartel operating out of Ixcan, a border town.

Read more: The Myth Of 90 Percent: Only A Small Fraction Of Guns In Mexico Come From U.S. | FoxNews.com

And Cuba is a Caribbean island, they ship guns to South America and they work there way north.

And the DATE OF YOUR LINKED Article is April 2009


About 3 months after Eric Holder and Obama took their seats in office.

Nice try though---

 

[NGSamson]

The program started in 2005.

 

[NGSamson]

The Caribbean doesn't have guns--nor are they accessible in south American countries---

You sure about that ?


So, if not from the U.S., where do they come from? There are a variety of sources:

-- The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.

-- Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.

- South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.

-- Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.

-- The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.

-- Guatemala. U.S. intelligence agencies say traffickers move immigrants, stolen cars, guns and drugs, including most of America's cocaine, along the porous Mexican-Guatemalan border. On March 27, La Hora, a Guatemalan newspaper, reported that police seized 500 grenades and a load of AK-47s on the border. Police say the cache was transported by a Mexican drug cartel operating out of Ixcan, a border town.

Read more: The Myth Of 90 Percent: Only A Small Fraction Of Guns In Mexico Come From U.S. | FoxNews.com

And Cuba is a Caribbean island, they ship guns to South America and they work there way north.

And the DATE OF YOUR LINKED Article is April 2009


About 3 months after Eric Holder and Obama took their seats in office.

Nice try though---

Thats another problem with your deal there, you are arguing the pint from the "Evil Holder Point Of View" to get your little rep thing going. There is WAAY more to the program then your little brownie point scoring expedition.

 

[oreo]

You sure about that ?


So, if not from the U.S., where do they come from? There are a variety of sources:

-- The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.

-- Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.

- South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.

-- Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.

-- The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.

-- Guatemala. U.S. intelligence agencies say traffickers move immigrants, stolen cars, guns and drugs, including most of America's cocaine, along the porous Mexican-Guatemalan border. On March 27, La Hora, a Guatemalan newspaper, reported that police seized 500 grenades and a load of AK-47s on the border. Police say the cache was transported by a Mexican drug cartel operating out of Ixcan, a border town.

Read more: The Myth Of 90 Percent: Only A Small Fraction Of Guns In Mexico Come From U.S. | FoxNews.com

And Cuba is a Caribbean island, they ship guns to South America and they work there way north.

1. The citizens of these countries ARE NOT allowed to own guns.
2. The easiest GUN route is right across the border--where it's citizens can own guns.

3. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC--BECAUSE WE KNOW THESE GUNS CAME FROM THE US--THROUGH THE FAST AND FURIOUS PROGRAM>\ And one of these guns killed a US Federal Agent.

They are not guns that citizens would own. The drug dealers are not using bolt guns and 30-30's.They are military grade weapons. Mexican soldiers sell there guns to drug cartels to, but the bulk of the weapons sold to them come from the south up through Guatemala. And only a very few came through fast and furious.

Yeah--most Americans don't own these type of weapons--doesn't mean you can't pick one up at your local gun shop. I do know law abiding citizens that do own military type semi-automatic weapons.

Are you in TOTAL DENIAL? It's OUT--it's a done deal--Eric Holder along the ATF are currently under congressional investigation of the Fast and Furious program. They were testifying on this last Friday -they admit to a U.S. Federal agent being killed by one of the guns they had straw buyers purchase and deliver to Mexican drug cartels.

I KNOW YOU CAN READ--and this is from one of your favorite liberal Newspapers--so it shouldn't hurt that much--coming from the L.A. Times.

Fast And Furious | Cover-Up | Obama Administration | The Daily Caller

 

[NGSamson]

The one I posted was from FOX, but hang on and I will see if I cant find something from Peter Rabbit so you can wrap your feeble mind around it.

 

[oreo]

You sure about that ?


So, if not from the U.S., where do they come from? There are a variety of sources:

-- The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.

-- Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.

- South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.

-- Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.

-- The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.

-- Guatemala. U.S. intelligence agencies say traffickers move immigrants, stolen cars, guns and drugs, including most of America's cocaine, along the porous Mexican-Guatemalan border. On March 27, La Hora, a Guatemalan newspaper, reported that police seized 500 grenades and a load of AK-47s on the border. Police say the cache was transported by a Mexican drug cartel operating out of Ixcan, a border town.

Read more: The Myth Of 90 Percent: Only A Small Fraction Of Guns In Mexico Come From U.S. | FoxNews.com

And Cuba is a Caribbean island, they ship guns to South America and they work there way north.

And the DATE OF YOUR LINKED Article is April 2009


About 3 months after Eric Holder and Obama took their seats in office.

Nice try though---

Thats another problem with your deal there, you are arguing the pint from the "Evil Holder Point Of View" to get your little rep thing going. There is WAAY more to the program then your little brownie point scoring expedition.

You can count on it. There is ALOT more to it than what we know right now-- We have got a lot of these people involved in the HOT SEAT that are going to disclose this program further. We have e-mails about this program going all the way to advisors--that are advisors of President Obama. It's not going to go away.

 

[Oldstyle]

It sounds like a sting to try and trace illegal gun sales to criminals, to include Mexican cartels like the Zetas.

In other words, to crack down on the guys conducting illegal weapons trafficking.

And it sounds like they botched it.

However, since the 2nd amendment fanatics talking point is always: "No new gun laws! Enforce the laws on the books!" I fail to see what the problem is with trying to keep weapons from being illegally distributed.

Law enforcement does this with narcotics all the time.

Does it look bad? Definitely. It's tragic a border guard was killed with a weapon our government put on the street.

What does this have to do with legitimate gun owners who legally have purchased weapons?

Ya Just gotta wonder about this..

Law enforcement has ALL sorts of dodgy tactics that wind up killing innocent people.

Like:
-No knock warrants.
-Undercovers buying and selling drugs.
-Undercovers in general (No identification making arrests)
-Law inforcement lying to suspects.
-Use of informants.
-Use of items bait cars and other items to entrap criminals.

And a myriad of other things that go horribly wrong a good amount of times.

NOT ONE PEEP from conservatives.

In fact..if any of this is brought up..Conservatives defend the government use of these tactics.

NOW..to track guns..under the Obama administration..it's a "problem".

Wonder why..

Yes. Congratulations conservatives. Your conservative courts just basically took the concept of search and seizure and flushed it.

Now if a cop knocks on your door and suspects you might be hiding evidence, they can kick the door in, search the premises, and make an arrest without a warrant.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-1272.pdf

Hardly a peep about this bum decision. Probably the worst since Kelo.

Your scenario leaves out one very important part of what happened. The police smelled marijuana. I'm sorry but if the police can smell pot from outside your residence or can plainly see it through the doorway then they don't need a warrant to enter, search the premises and make an arrest. And they didn't enter because the suspects were "hiding" evidence...they entered because it sounded like they were destroying it.

A friend of mine got busted on drug possession charges because when the police responded to a loud party complaint they could smell pot being smoked inside the apartment. They didn't need a warrant to enter and his arrest was upheld on appeal.