Fellow Centrists, Classical Liberals, Independents, etc. - We need to talk.

[EverCurious]

Alright, so I've been pondering Emily's wisdom and I'd like to retract Grampa Murked U

I apologize, I should have been more open to discussing your point. I didn't feel it was relevant to the point of my thread [that fundimental principles were being shoved down the garbage disposal by our leaders] at the time. In retrospect, that in itself is similar to your complaint on the political relevance of my sexual identity and I think your vitriol is actually a good example of the problem I'm actually talking about.

I believe you are 'half-right' about identity politics destroying the social fabric of the nation. However, it's not "identity politics" themselves that are the problem, it's the people's vitriol and activism that's causing the destruction of some of the "fundamental principles" I started the thread to... IDK "protect" I suppose.

Firstly, I would like to say that I don't have a "problem" with your, or anyone's, choice to dislike homosexuality, at least not in the sense that you shouldn't be "allowed" to feel that way.

As I said, I'm a classical liberal, that means that I think folks are free to believe in and think what they want about any group; activists, racists, homophones, Islamophobia, white nationalists, socialists, capitalists, etc. /all/ have the right to their personal beliefs, and, in fact, to speak about them and attempt to "influence" others to their "side."

That is what a "free nation" /actually/ is, no one has the right to dictate to others how they should, or should not, believe. There is zero "right" to "not be offended" to "not be challenged" to "not be uncomfortable" as a truly free people.

I think that perhaps is the "disconnect" between both modern activists, the media, and our political leaders these days.

I was overly animated and abrasive as I tend to be more often than not.
Your thread cleay had a lot of thought put into it and I let one part of it derail me from the overall point.

And I just want to be clear, I don't dislike gay people. I just tire of their life choices being used as a political wedge.

No worries, I'm an alpha bitch myself (maybe you noticed)

I'm guilty of that myself

Cool. I agree, just please try to keep in mind that's these fucking activist assholes, it's not all of us pushing the ridiculous crap. Most of us (my LGBT folks) really just wanted the right to exist and not be thrown in jail, the right to have a 'legal' spouse so we could see them in the hospital, have insurance with work for them, leave shit to them in our wills, maybe get that "married" tax break too. Hell the transgenders I know have no fucking clue where the bathroom shit came from and resent it becoming an issue cause it caused them problems they didn't have before the activists went nuts. The "shitty" stuff, teaching it in school, pushing folks to go against their religion to accommodate gays, no genders, pronouns - that shit is the evil of the modern lefties, "regressives," and activists looking for attention/virtue signaling... and hating religion, wtf with them not letting go of the past and wanting revenge for every fucking slight?!? Such petty little bitches they are... but I digress.

If we can keep a level head between all of us that actually care about the /core/ American values, maybe we can destroy the fuckers.

 

[EverCurious]

Where exactly?

You are clearly clueless about my politics. You're coming off as an unhinged lunatic who doesn't even understand what's being said in this thread.

I'll clarify some more so you can show the entire board what a complete knee jerk partisan fuck you really are son:

I don't believe the baker should have baked the cake.
Transgenders in the bathroom is the stupidest fucking thing ever.
There are only two genders.
Homosexual's should /not/ be in the military because it's a lifetime expense for transition drugs and a major distraction during war.
SSM was questionable being SCOTUS pushed, I think it should have been left to the states.
I don't get why we couldn't just call SSM a "civil union" but activists ruin fucking everything by being dicks (kinda like you are being actually)
I despise third-wave feminists, they are ruining everything I fought for on women's rights.
Abortion is not a fucking "reproductive" right.
Roe vs Wade was a complete fuck up, should have been left to the states.
Transitions for children?! Fuck that shit, child abuse.
Get the teaching gay shit out of public schools - parents choice to teach just like religion is.

Shall I go on?

You can say whatever you like. It is your OP where YOU included your homosexuality as part of your political description.
I made my point and it was quite clear. Heterosexuals don't go out of their way to describe their sexual proclivities in an attempt to garner special attention they otherwise don't deserve.

You may not see it but it is quite obvious. Identity politics are a plague upon our nation.

I think she was saying that she is bisexual but not a Leftist. As you might expect. I don't think she was attempting to check any "identity politics" boxes. Back off! Sheesh

Its crap posts like Grampa Murked U that lead to the breakdown of every discussion on this board. We had a discussion the other day about Woodward’s book where the OP expressly said “those who have read the book” only should comment. About 60 posts into it; there were about 3 discussing the book. I asked the mods to “clean up” the thread. Nothing happened. The board is a reflection of the nation…leaders who are not responsive and “citizens” who are not concerned about the greater good.

Agreed with the yelling, but that's kind of to be expected on a political forum. It's the internet, that's what the internet does, and had done since it started.

I'd say the actual problem is that the leaders are too busy responding to "citizens" who have no clue what is going on and rage and riot about "the greater good" without knowing what that actually is.

Yeah...our elected leaders are too responsive. Riiiight.

Perhaps you should take a moment to consider how old your leaders are, explore their past political views and see what's changed. You'll be /very/ surprised with how often they change their "deeply held beliefs" to get your vote.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

For those of you who may have missed my prior posts, I have been an independent my entire life, (voting nearly 30 years now.) If one looks at my sig they'll note where I lay on various political metrics. In general I refer to myself as a capitalist classical liberal; I'm bisexual, pro-choice, national capitalistic.

If you are in the "political situation" where you've kind of always had to essentially make concessions about what you believe in when you vote this message probably applies to you. [EDIT - note, if you're a partisan hack, this post probably doesn't apply to you heh]

We need to talk about what just happened with the Kavanaugh thing; the /principle/ of it. The D's could have started privately investigating this Ford case in July - they could have saved both Ford and Kavanaugh from the vitriol of making this case public and gotten to the /truth/ without all the hyperbolic bullshit. They /intentionally/ chose to destroy the lives and families of two people /simply/ to retain control of the SCOTUS at best, at worst they did it simply to "resist" the president.

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people and that there was no vote interference or anything that makes his election invalid, even at best - arguing that there were Russian ad campaigns - folks make their choice without anyone forcing them into it. Even if we want to entertain that "Russian's mislead the people with false claims and lies" that is certainly nothing new in politics, and effectually no different than the misleading and lies told by our own politicians of their opponents. The people voted of their own volition and Trump won.

Back to the Kavanaugh thing. So I didn't particularly care if he made it onto the SCOTUS honestly. I'm not a "fan" of him, he's got some rulings in the past I do not like; for example, the Patriot Act, the NSA recording and collecting all those phone calls - I was never entirely satisfied with the argument that "national security" is a good enough reason to invade the privacy of innocent American's without reason and necessity, even if I do recognize that it was/did indeed catch/stop terrorists. It was kind of one of those border-line issues for me where I wasn't quite feeling that the ends justified the means.

That's kind of what I want to talk about with you though, that "the ends justifying the means" thing...

What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the fucking leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

We have witnessed these "leaders" /allowing/ physical violence against their political rivals - not the politicians who one could argue put themselves in the proverbial ring and open themselves up to nutcases, but THE FUCKING CITIZENS who's only "crime" is going to a political rally.

We have witnessed these "leaders" ACTIVELY CALLING for those attacks on INNOCENT CITIZENS who's only "crime" is taking a job with political opposition.

And yesterday, we learned that we have witnessed these "leaders" abandon the core values of this nation; that a man, who's only "crime" is being nominated to the SCOTUS by the president, and/or a woman, who's only "crime' was thinking/believing she was sexually assaulted, should /both/ be utterly destroyed simply to buy these "leaders" time...


This is no longer "politics as usual" and this cannot stand. (I have a husband, four sons, and likely grandsons some day that I'm thinking about here.)

I know our kind sometimes blows off mid-terms as "less important," but we really need to vote this time and as always, we must look at the whole picture when we do so.

And when you do vote, I ask that you ask yourself; what means justify what ends...

The notion of ‘classical liberals’ is nonsense, a ridiculous rightwing canard.

Liberals today are the same liberals who founded our Nation.

Your thread exhibits your ignorance of the law and governance with regard to the confirmation process.

You are in fact wrong to claim that “we just witnessed…the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation…” – where nothing could be further from the truth; no fundamental principles were ‘destroyed.’

The confirmation process is a political – not legal – process, having nothing whatsoever to do with the principles of ‘presumed innocence’ or ‘due process.’

A presumption of innocence and the right to due process come in to play solely when the state subjects a citizen to criminal prosecution where his liberty or life is in jeopardy; Kavanaugh has not been charged with any crime, neither his life nor liberty are in jeopardy.

And the idea that the Democrats should have conducted a ‘private investigation’ into to Ford’s allegations is likewise ignorant and completely moronic.

Otherwise, your post reveals you to be just another partisan rightist pretending to be ‘moderate’ or ‘centrist,’ with the same ignorance of the law and governance common to most conservatives, or just as dishonest as most conservatives.

 

[JoeB131]

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people

Okay, here's the problem with your verbal diarrhea here. The people didn't choose Trump. He lost by 3 million votes. He was chosen by an constitutional anachronism created by Slave Owners who didn't trust democracy.

Now that in itself isn't a bad thing. Bush got the job in the same way, but he still acted in a bi-partisan manner.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the fucking leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

Oh, please. Where have you been when they did the same thing to Clarence Thomas or Bill Clinton? This is really nothing new at all. You had no problem with this kind of witch hunt when it destroyed the career of Al Franken or Harvey Weinstein.

Yes, our politics have gotten uglier since 2016... but when you elect a man who engages in outright racism and misogyny, yes, things are going to get ugly.

Deal with it.

 

[Mac1958]

Unfortunately, the Regressive Left is currently in control of the Left side of the spectrum, whereas actual Liberals have been relegated to the back seat. At best.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

For those of you who may have missed my prior posts, I have been an independent my entire life, (voting nearly 30 years now.) If one looks at my sig they'll note where I lay on various political metrics. In general I refer to myself as a capitalist classical liberal; I'm bisexual, pro-choice, national capitalistic.

If you are in the "political situation" where you've kind of always had to essentially make concessions about what you believe in when you vote this message probably applies to you. [EDIT - note, if you're a partisan hack, this post probably doesn't apply to you heh]

We need to talk about what just happened with the Kavanaugh thing; the /principle/ of it. The D's could have started privately investigating this Ford case in July - they could have saved both Ford and Kavanaugh from the vitriol of making this case public and gotten to the /truth/ without all the hyperbolic bullshit. They /intentionally/ chose to destroy the lives and families of two people /simply/ to retain control of the SCOTUS at best, at worst they did it simply to "resist" the president.

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people and that there was no vote interference or anything that makes his election invalid, even at best - arguing that there were Russian ad campaigns - folks make their choice without anyone forcing them into it. Even if we want to entertain that "Russian's mislead the people with false claims and lies" that is certainly nothing new in politics, and effectually no different than the misleading and lies told by our own politicians of their opponents. The people voted of their own volition and Trump won.

Back to the Kavanaugh thing. So I didn't particularly care if he made it onto the SCOTUS honestly. I'm not a "fan" of him, he's got some rulings in the past I do not like; for example, the Patriot Act, the NSA recording and collecting all those phone calls - I was never entirely satisfied with the argument that "national security" is a good enough reason to invade the privacy of innocent American's without reason and necessity, even if I do recognize that it was/did indeed catch/stop terrorists. It was kind of one of those border-line issues for me where I wasn't quite feeling that the ends justified the means.

That's kind of what I want to talk about with you though, that "the ends justifying the means" thing...

What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the fucking leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

We have witnessed these "leaders" /allowing/ physical violence against their political rivals - not the politicians who one could argue put themselves in the proverbial ring and open themselves up to nutcases, but THE FUCKING CITIZENS who's only "crime" is going to a political rally.

We have witnessed these "leaders" ACTIVELY CALLING for those attacks on INNOCENT CITIZENS who's only "crime" is taking a job with political opposition.

And yesterday, we learned that we have witnessed these "leaders" abandon the core values of this nation; that a man, who's only "crime" is being nominated to the SCOTUS by the president, and/or a woman, who's only "crime' was thinking/believing she was sexually assaulted, should /both/ be utterly destroyed simply to buy these "leaders" time...


This is no longer "politics as usual" and this cannot stand. (I have a husband, four sons, and likely grandsons some day that I'm thinking about here.)

I know our kind sometimes blows off mid-terms as "less important," but we really need to vote this time and as always, we must look at the whole picture when we do so.

And when you do vote, I ask that you ask yourself; what means justify what ends...

Excellent post. Of course Liberals are totally fine with destroying a man and his family for perceived political gain. They are totally fine with throwing the foundation of our justice system out the window. They use weak technicalities to hide their shame like "Oh it's not a real trial so it's cool to assassinate a man's character in front of the whole world". This week has disgusted me more than any other, it just shows how far the Democrats have sunk and how divided we are. That is WAY not good for America.

I'm also not to pleased with the D's pushing the bullshit that "Roe vs Wade" is about "women's rights," much less that Kavanaugh was most definitely going to take that away from them. This whole case against Kavanaugh is a shame, it's a bald faced lie from "leaders" who have zero interest in anything but their own gains - be that power, money, reelection, or whatever they strive for. It's disgusting.

Nonsense.

At least you’re consistent at being ignorant and wrong.

Roe v. Wade in fact concerns the right to privacy, prohibiting the state from seeking to compel a woman to give birth against her will through force of law; Kavanaugh on the Supreme Court places defending that right in jeopardy.

It is perfectly appropriate, reasonable, and logical to infer that because Kavanaugh is a reactionary conservative ideologue hostile to the right to privacy and the 14th Amendment doctrine of substantive due process that he would indeed vote to overturn Roe, allowing the states to compel women to give birth against their will.

Opposition to the Kavanaugh appointment is very much warranted; conservative operatives and Republican party bosses would not selected Kavanaugh without first knowing how he would vote on Roe – to believe otherwise is naïve and ridiculous.

And once again you’ve demonstrated that you’re no ‘moderate.’

 

[candycorn]

You can say whatever you like. It is your OP where YOU included your homosexuality as part of your political description.
I made my point and it was quite clear. Heterosexuals don't go out of their way to describe their sexual proclivities in an attempt to garner special attention they otherwise don't deserve.

You may not see it but it is quite obvious. Identity politics are a plague upon our nation.

I think she was saying that she is bisexual but not a Leftist. As you might expect. I don't think she was attempting to check any "identity politics" boxes. Back off! Sheesh

Its crap posts like Grampa Murked U that lead to the breakdown of every discussion on this board. We had a discussion the other day about Woodward’s book where the OP expressly said “those who have read the book” only should comment. About 60 posts into it; there were about 3 discussing the book. I asked the mods to “clean up” the thread. Nothing happened. The board is a reflection of the nation…leaders who are not responsive and “citizens” who are not concerned about the greater good.

Agreed with the yelling, but that's kind of to be expected on a political forum. It's the internet, that's what the internet does, and had done since it started.

I'd say the actual problem is that the leaders are too busy responding to "citizens" who have no clue what is going on and rage and riot about "the greater good" without knowing what that actually is.

Yeah...our elected leaders are too responsive. Riiiight.

Perhaps you should take a moment to consider how old your leaders are, explore their past political views and see what's changed. You'll be /very/ surprised with how often they change their "deeply held beliefs" to get your vote.

Hmmm…

Can you name some specific leaders?

 

[EverCurious]

For those of you who may have missed my prior posts, I have been an independent my entire life, (voting nearly 30 years now.) If one looks at my sig they'll note where I lay on various political metrics. In general I refer to myself as a capitalist classical liberal; I'm bisexual, pro-choice, national capitalistic.

If you are in the "political situation" where you've kind of always had to essentially make concessions about what you believe in when you vote this message probably applies to you. [EDIT - note, if you're a partisan hack, this post probably doesn't apply to you heh]

We need to talk about what just happened with the Kavanaugh thing; the /principle/ of it. The D's could have started privately investigating this Ford case in July - they could have saved both Ford and Kavanaugh from the vitriol of making this case public and gotten to the /truth/ without all the hyperbolic bullshit. They /intentionally/ chose to destroy the lives and families of two people /simply/ to retain control of the SCOTUS at best, at worst they did it simply to "resist" the president.

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people and that there was no vote interference or anything that makes his election invalid, even at best - arguing that there were Russian ad campaigns - folks make their choice without anyone forcing them into it. Even if we want to entertain that "Russian's mislead the people with false claims and lies" that is certainly nothing new in politics, and effectually no different than the misleading and lies told by our own politicians of their opponents. The people voted of their own volition and Trump won.

Back to the Kavanaugh thing. So I didn't particularly care if he made it onto the SCOTUS honestly. I'm not a "fan" of him, he's got some rulings in the past I do not like; for example, the Patriot Act, the NSA recording and collecting all those phone calls - I was never entirely satisfied with the argument that "national security" is a good enough reason to invade the privacy of innocent American's without reason and necessity, even if I do recognize that it was/did indeed catch/stop terrorists. It was kind of one of those border-line issues for me where I wasn't quite feeling that the ends justified the means.

That's kind of what I want to talk about with you though, that "the ends justifying the means" thing...

What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the fucking leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

We have witnessed these "leaders" /allowing/ physical violence against their political rivals - not the politicians who one could argue put themselves in the proverbial ring and open themselves up to nutcases, but THE FUCKING CITIZENS who's only "crime" is going to a political rally.

We have witnessed these "leaders" ACTIVELY CALLING for those attacks on INNOCENT CITIZENS who's only "crime" is taking a job with political opposition.

And yesterday, we learned that we have witnessed these "leaders" abandon the core values of this nation; that a man, who's only "crime" is being nominated to the SCOTUS by the president, and/or a woman, who's only "crime' was thinking/believing she was sexually assaulted, should /both/ be utterly destroyed simply to buy these "leaders" time...


This is no longer "politics as usual" and this cannot stand. (I have a husband, four sons, and likely grandsons some day that I'm thinking about here.)

I know our kind sometimes blows off mid-terms as "less important," but we really need to vote this time and as always, we must look at the whole picture when we do so.

And when you do vote, I ask that you ask yourself; what means justify what ends...

The notion of ‘classical liberals’ is nonsense, a ridiculous rightwing canard.

Liberals today are the same liberals who founded our Nation.

Your thread exhibits your ignorance of the law and governance with regard to the confirmation process.

You are in fact wrong to claim that “we just witnessed…the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation…” – where nothing could be further from the truth; no fundamental principles were ‘destroyed.’

The confirmation process is a political – not legal – process, having nothing whatsoever to do with the principles of ‘presumed innocence’ or ‘due process.’

A presumption of innocence and the right to due process come in to play solely when the state subjects a citizen to criminal prosecution where his liberty or life is in jeopardy; Kavanaugh has not been charged with any crime, neither his life nor liberty are in jeopardy.

And the idea that the Democrats should have conducted a ‘private investigation’ into to Ford’s allegations is likewise ignorant and completely moronic.

Otherwise, your post reveals you to be just another partisan rightist pretending to be ‘moderate’ or ‘centrist,’ with the same ignorance of the law and governance common to most conservatives, or just as dishonest as most conservatives.

Your opinion that because it wasn't a court he's not presumed guilty is utter bullshit and I refuse to entertain it.

 

[Avatar4321]

For those of you who may have missed my prior posts, I have been an independent my entire life, (voting nearly 30 years now.) If one looks at my sig they'll note where I lay on various political metrics. In general I refer to myself as a capitalist classical liberal; I'm bisexual, pro-choice, national capitalistic.

If you are in the "political situation" where you've kind of always had to essentially make concessions about what you believe in when you vote this message probably applies to you.

We need to talk about what just happened with the Kavanaugh thing; the /principle/ of it. The D's could have started privately investigating this Ford case in July - they could have saved both Ford and Kavanaugh from the vitriol of making this case public and gotten to the /truth/ without all the hyperbolic bullshit. They /intentionally/ chose to destroy the lives and families of two people /simply/ to retain control of the SCOTUS at best, at worst they did it simply to "resist" the president.

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people and that there was no vote interference or anything that makes his election invalid, even at best - arguing that there were Russian ad campaigns - folks make their choice without anyone forcing them into it. Even if we want to entertain that "Russian's mislead the people with false claims and lies" that is certainly nothing new in politics, and effectually no different than the misleading and lies told by our own politicians of their opponents. The people voted of their own volition and Trump won.

Back to the Kavanaugh thing. So I didn't particularly care if he made it onto the SCOTUS honestly. I'm not a "fan" of him, he's got some rulings in the past I do not like; for example, the Patriot Act, the NSA recording and collecting all those phone calls - I was never entirely satisfied with the argument that "national security" is a good enough reason to invade the privacy of innocent American's without reason and necessity, even if I do recognize that it was/did indeed catch/stop terrorists. It was kind of one of those border-line issues for me where I wasn't quite feeling that the ends justified the means.

That's kind of what I want to talk about with you though, that "the ends justifying the means" thing...

What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the fucking leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

We have witnessed these "leaders" /allowing/ physical violence against their political rivals - not the politicians who one could argue put themselves in the proverbial ring and open themselves up to nutcases, but THE FUCKING CITIZENS who's only "crime" is going to a political rally.

We have witnessed these "leaders" ACTIVELY CALLING for those attacks on INNOCENT CITIZENS who's only "crime" is taking a job with political opposition.

And yesterday, we learned that we have witnessed these "leaders" abandon the core values of this nation; that a man, who's only "crime" is being nominated to the SCOTUS by the president, and/or a woman, who's only "crime' was thinking/believing she was sexually assaulted, should /both/ be utterly destroyed simply to buy these "leaders" time...


This is no longer "politics as usual" and this cannot stand. (I have a husband, four sons, and likely grandsons some day that I'm thinking about here.)

I know our kind sometimes blows off mid-terms as "less important," but we really need to vote this time and as always, we must look at the whole picture when we do so.

And when you do vote, I ask that you ask yourself; what means justify what ends...

You're not any sort of independent. You are a tRumpkin.

You label everyone. Chill. We are all people.

People is a label too

 

[karpenter]

I don't recall........is the famous quote for I'm lying my ass off from politicians..........catch all phrase..........

Used so you can't get nailed later for Lying under oath.

Hardley
They Can Trap You If You Say 'No'
To The Slightest Thing
When All You Did Was Forget Some Detail

You Don't Have To Be Under Oath
Agents Just Chatting You Up At The Door...

 

[eagle1462010]

I don't recall........is the famous quote for I'm lying my ass off from politicians..........catch all phrase..........

Used so you can't get nailed later for Lying under oath.

Hardley
They Can Trap You If You Say 'No'
To The Slightest Thing
When All You Did Was Forget Some Detail

You Don't Have To Be Under Oath
Agents Just Chatting You Up At The Door...

politicians have been using that line forever when questioned.........I can't recall......it's a lawyer way of not answering to avoid a perjury trap later.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Well here is the thing. First we have no idea who actually released Ford's identity.

Secondly, if we do dodge a bullet on Kavanaugh, the hearing exposed that he is not as non-partisan as a judge is supposed to be. He has a true hatred of the left, and actually used a conspiracy theory that is unproven, that the Clintons are behind this whole thing. He has no idea if that is true or not, and he used it in his hearing. We don't need conspiracy theory nutjobs serving on the Supreme Court.

Lastly, as a judge he should have known better than to say that statements made by Mark Judge and the other person Ford said was at the party, backed up his statement that he was never there. In fact that isn't true. They said they don't remember the party, that isn't the same as saying it didn't happen and that the party didn't happen. Those are two totally different things. A judge that is going to serve on the highest court in the land should know better, and if he does know better, but instead made that statement, then he was being dishonest.

People hate evil, like the Senate Democrats, its natural

 

[EverCurious]

For those of you who may have missed my prior posts, I have been an independent my entire life, (voting nearly 30 years now.) If one looks at my sig they'll note where I lay on various political metrics. In general I refer to myself as a capitalist classical liberal; I'm bisexual, pro-choice, national capitalistic.

If you are in the "political situation" where you've kind of always had to essentially make concessions about what you believe in when you vote this message probably applies to you. [EDIT - note, if you're a partisan hack, this post probably doesn't apply to you heh]

We need to talk about what just happened with the Kavanaugh thing; the /principle/ of it. The D's could have started privately investigating this Ford case in July - they could have saved both Ford and Kavanaugh from the vitriol of making this case public and gotten to the /truth/ without all the hyperbolic bullshit. They /intentionally/ chose to destroy the lives and families of two people /simply/ to retain control of the SCOTUS at best, at worst they did it simply to "resist" the president.

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people and that there was no vote interference or anything that makes his election invalid, even at best - arguing that there were Russian ad campaigns - folks make their choice without anyone forcing them into it. Even if we want to entertain that "Russian's mislead the people with false claims and lies" that is certainly nothing new in politics, and effectually no different than the misleading and lies told by our own politicians of their opponents. The people voted of their own volition and Trump won.

Back to the Kavanaugh thing. So I didn't particularly care if he made it onto the SCOTUS honestly. I'm not a "fan" of him, he's got some rulings in the past I do not like; for example, the Patriot Act, the NSA recording and collecting all those phone calls - I was never entirely satisfied with the argument that "national security" is a good enough reason to invade the privacy of innocent American's without reason and necessity, even if I do recognize that it was/did indeed catch/stop terrorists. It was kind of one of those border-line issues for me where I wasn't quite feeling that the ends justified the means.

That's kind of what I want to talk about with you though, that "the ends justifying the means" thing...

What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the fucking leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

We have witnessed these "leaders" /allowing/ physical violence against their political rivals - not the politicians who one could argue put themselves in the proverbial ring and open themselves up to nutcases, but THE FUCKING CITIZENS who's only "crime" is going to a political rally.

We have witnessed these "leaders" ACTIVELY CALLING for those attacks on INNOCENT CITIZENS who's only "crime" is taking a job with political opposition.

And yesterday, we learned that we have witnessed these "leaders" abandon the core values of this nation; that a man, who's only "crime" is being nominated to the SCOTUS by the president, and/or a woman, who's only "crime' was thinking/believing she was sexually assaulted, should /both/ be utterly destroyed simply to buy these "leaders" time...


This is no longer "politics as usual" and this cannot stand. (I have a husband, four sons, and likely grandsons some day that I'm thinking about here.)

I know our kind sometimes blows off mid-terms as "less important," but we really need to vote this time and as always, we must look at the whole picture when we do so.

And when you do vote, I ask that you ask yourself; what means justify what ends...

Excellent post. Of course Liberals are totally fine with destroying a man and his family for perceived political gain. They are totally fine with throwing the foundation of our justice system out the window. They use weak technicalities to hide their shame like "Oh it's not a real trial so it's cool to assassinate a man's character in front of the whole world". This week has disgusted me more than any other, it just shows how far the Democrats have sunk and how divided we are. That is WAY not good for America.

I'm also not to pleased with the D's pushing the bullshit that "Roe vs Wade" is about "women's rights," much less that Kavanaugh was most definitely going to take that away from them. This whole case against Kavanaugh is a shame, it's a bald faced lie from "leaders" who have zero interest in anything but their own gains - be that power, money, reelection, or whatever they strive for. It's disgusting.

Nonsense.

At least you’re consistent at being ignorant and wrong.

Roe v. Wade in fact concerns the right to privacy, prohibiting the state from seeking to compel a woman to give birth against her will through force of law; Kavanaugh on the Supreme Court places defending that right in jeopardy.

It is perfectly appropriate, reasonable, and logical to infer that because Kavanaugh is a reactionary conservative ideologue hostile to the right to privacy and the 14th Amendment doctrine of substantive due process that he would indeed vote to overturn Roe, allowing the states to compel women to give birth against their will.

Opposition to the Kavanaugh appointment is very much warranted; conservative operatives and Republican party bosses would not selected Kavanaugh without first knowing how he would vote on Roe – to believe otherwise is naïve and ridiculous.

And once again you’ve demonstrated that you’re no ‘moderate.’

Agreed on what Roe vs Wade was ruled based on. Disagree that it needed to be taken national when it could be handled by the community in which it would take place/not take place. Kavanaugh on the court did not put the existing ruling in jeopardy, that is a political lie to get ya'll to hate him and rile up female voters. Either way, elections do have consequences.

Where was this 14th Amendment "due process" for Kavanaugh? It's interesting that it only applies where, when, and to whom you want it to. Sounds partisan hackish to me.

All you are basically saying is that the ends, destroying people innocent or not, regardless of their right to due process, justifies protecting against any possible chance of abortion being sent back to the states.

I'm a pro-choice woman and that is unacceptable to me. MY right, to privacy or abortion or whatever ended where Kavanaugh's right to be presumed innocent began. There is /no/ fucking excuse for ditching the fucking presumption of innocence for "privacy rights"

 

[karpenter]

Your opinion that because it wasn't a court he's not presumed guilty is utter bullshit and I refuse to entertain it.

Long-Windedly Stupid Ain't He ??
Trying To Obfuscate With Talking Point Lies

Has Nothing To Do With Kav Or Anyone Else

It's About Keeping That Appointment Open
Until After Mid-Terms
Dems Have Nothing To Lose By Trying
Even If They Don't Take Either House

Flake, Collins And Murkowski Are Helping Them

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

two words>

Term Limits

~S~

We already have term limits – they’re called elections.

The people have the right to elect whomever they want, as many times as they want, for as long as they want.

The 22nd Amendment is an example of the folly of term limits, a true manifestation of unintended consequences, illustrating that it's unwise to codify partisanism in the Constitution.

 

[EverCurious]

Your opinion that because it wasn't a court he's not presumed guilty is utter bullshit and I refuse to entertain it.

Long-Windedly Stupid Ain't He ??
Trying To Obfuscate With Talking Point Lies

Has Nothing To Do With Kav Or Anyone Else

It's About Keeping That Appointment Open
Until After Mid-Terms
Dems Have Nothing To Lose By Trying
Even If They Don't Take Either House

Flake, Collins And Murkowski Are Helping Them

Agree it's about power and using the SCOTUS to control the nation; from obstructing Trump to forcing everyone to swallow their bullshit ideas.

Murkowski is pro-choice and a bit of a RINO it's true, but she does represent folks who are 70% Christian and a bunch of them are anti-abortion so she can really only go so far without those folks raging at her about it. She did say she was going to vote for him, and I believe Collins did as well. Flake got accosted by some women in the elevator and pussed... erm I mean decided to change his vote as I understand it.

 

[eagle1462010]

For those of you who may have missed my prior posts, I have been an independent my entire life, (voting nearly 30 years now.) If one looks at my sig they'll note where I lay on various political metrics. In general I refer to myself as a capitalist classical liberal; I'm bisexual, pro-choice, national capitalistic.

If you are in the "political situation" where you've kind of always had to essentially make concessions about what you believe in when you vote this message probably applies to you.

We need to talk about what just happened with the Kavanaugh thing; the /principle/ of it. The D's could have started privately investigating this Ford case in July - they could have saved both Ford and Kavanaugh from the vitriol of making this case public and gotten to the /truth/ without all the hyperbolic bullshit. They /intentionally/ chose to destroy the lives and families of two people /simply/ to retain control of the SCOTUS at best, at worst they did it simply to "resist" the president.

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people and that there was no vote interference or anything that makes his election invalid, even at best - arguing that there were Russian ad campaigns - folks make their choice without anyone forcing them into it. Even if we want to entertain that "Russian's mislead the people with false claims and lies" that is certainly nothing new in politics, and effectually no different than the misleading and lies told by our own politicians of their opponents. The people voted of their own volition and Trump won.

Back to the Kavanaugh thing. So I didn't particularly care if he made it onto the SCOTUS honestly. I'm not a "fan" of him, he's got some rulings in the past I do not like; for example, the Patriot Act, the NSA recording and collecting all those phone calls - I was never entirely satisfied with the argument that "national security" is a good enough reason to invade the privacy of innocent American's without reason and necessity, even if I do recognize that it was/did indeed catch/stop terrorists. It was kind of one of those border-line issues for me where I wasn't quite feeling that the ends justified the means.

That's kind of what I want to talk about with you though, that "the ends justifying the means" thing...

What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the fucking leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

We have witnessed these "leaders" /allowing/ physical violence against their political rivals - not the politicians who one could argue put themselves in the proverbial ring and open themselves up to nutcases, but THE FUCKING CITIZENS who's only "crime" is going to a political rally.

We have witnessed these "leaders" ACTIVELY CALLING for those attacks on INNOCENT CITIZENS who's only "crime" is taking a job with political opposition.

And yesterday, we learned that we have witnessed these "leaders" abandon the core values of this nation; that a man, who's only "crime" is being nominated to the SCOTUS by the president, and/or a woman, who's only "crime' was thinking/believing she was sexually assaulted, should /both/ be utterly destroyed simply to buy these "leaders" time...


This is no longer "politics as usual" and this cannot stand. (I have a husband, four sons, and likely grandsons some day that I'm thinking about here.)

I know our kind sometimes blows off mid-terms as "less important," but we really need to vote this time and as always, we must look at the whole picture when we do so.

And when you do vote, I ask that you ask yourself; what means justify what ends...

You're not any sort of independent. You are a tRumpkin.

Well I am an Independent, and I agree with her. Yes, she mentioned things with a rightward slant, but in general she has a great point. Both of these parties are guilty of heartlessly using whatever ammunition they can find to wrest power from the other side.
The thing I don't find in her OP is what our options are. Go vote? For whom?
The ONLY way to stop these parties from continuing on as they are is for every voter in this country to say NO MORE and refuse to vote at all. There are too many dyed in the wool Dems and Repubs in this country for that to ever happen. I'd like to see the whole party system change, but that won't happen without the agreement of the parties themselves, and that ain't gonna happen.
So what does OP suggest we do? I really want to know.

Term limits.......and stop career politicians..............best stop gap I can see...........

But it would take a Constitutional amendment.

 

[Wry Catcher]

For those of you who may have missed my prior posts, I have been an independent my entire life, (voting nearly 30 years now.) If one looks at my sig they'll note where I lay on various political metrics. In general I refer to myself as a capitalist classical liberal; I'm bisexual, pro-choice, national capitalistic.

If you are in the "political situation" where you've kind of always had to essentially make concessions about what you believe in when you vote this message probably applies to you.

We need to talk about what just happened with the Kavanaugh thing; the /principle/ of it. The D's could have started privately investigating this Ford case in July - they could have saved both Ford and Kavanaugh from the vitriol of making this case public and gotten to the /truth/ without all the hyperbolic bullshit. They /intentionally/ chose to destroy the lives and families of two people /simply/ to retain control of the SCOTUS at best, at worst they did it simply to "resist" the president.

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people and that there was no vote interference or anything that makes his election invalid, even at best - arguing that there were Russian ad campaigns - folks make their choice without anyone forcing them into it. Even if we want to entertain that "Russian's mislead the people with false claims and lies" that is certainly nothing new in politics, and effectually no different than the misleading and lies told by our own politicians of their opponents. The people voted of their own volition and Trump won.

Back to the Kavanaugh thing. So I didn't particularly care if he made it onto the SCOTUS honestly. I'm not a "fan" of him, he's got some rulings in the past I do not like; for example, the Patriot Act, the NSA recording and collecting all those phone calls - I was never entirely satisfied with the argument that "national security" is a good enough reason to invade the privacy of innocent American's without reason and necessity, even if I do recognize that it was/did indeed catch/stop terrorists. It was kind of one of those border-line issues for me where I wasn't quite feeling that the ends justified the means.

That's kind of what I want to talk about with you though, that "the ends justifying the means" thing...

What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the fucking leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

We have witnessed these "leaders" /allowing/ physical violence against their political rivals - not the politicians who one could argue put themselves in the proverbial ring and open themselves up to nutcases, but THE FUCKING CITIZENS who's only "crime" is going to a political rally.

We have witnessed these "leaders" ACTIVELY CALLING for those attacks on INNOCENT CITIZENS who's only "crime" is taking a job with political opposition.

And yesterday, we learned that we have witnessed these "leaders" abandon the core values of this nation; that a man, who's only "crime" is being nominated to the SCOTUS by the president, and/or a woman, who's only "crime' was thinking/believing she was sexually assaulted, should /both/ be utterly destroyed simply to buy these "leaders" time...


This is no longer "politics as usual" and this cannot stand. (I have a husband, four sons, and likely grandsons some day that I'm thinking about here.)

I know our kind sometimes blows off mid-terms as "less important," but we really need to vote this time and as always, we must look at the whole picture when we do so.

And when you do vote, I ask that you ask yourself; what means justify what ends...

You're not any sort of independent. You are a tRumpkin.

You label everyone. Chill. We are all people.

We may all be homosapien sapiens (H's-S) but not all of us have humanity in our DNA. Of Course there are different breeds of H's-S, some have no, some and more neanderthal DNA than others, and yet the differences in DNA do not prevent procreation.

That said, the Trumpanzee is a different breed. They look the same, and can breed with all other H's-S, but that ends any comparison with other members of the toxonomy of H's-S. Something weird came their way which created this new and odd breed.

 

[OldLady]

Well here is the thing. First we have no idea who actually released Ford's identity.

Secondly, if we do dodge a bullet on Kavanaugh, the hearing exposed that he is not as non-partisan as a judge is supposed to be. He has a true hatred of the left, and actually used a conspiracy theory that is unproven, that the Clintons are behind this whole thing. He has no idea if that is true or not, and he used it in his hearing. We don't need conspiracy theory nutjobs serving on the Supreme Court.

Lastly, as a judge he should have known better than to say that statements made by Mark Judge and the other person Ford said was at the party, backed up his statement that he was never there. In fact that isn't true. They said they don't remember the party, that isn't the same as saying it didn't happen and that the party didn't happen. Those are two totally different things. A judge that is going to serve on the highest court in the land should know better, and if he does know better, but instead made that statement, then he was being dishonest.

This isn't exactly a debate post... Everyone is welcome to whatever opinion and whatever facts they find most compelling.

I am simply asking that folks decide where their principles lay - and to go vote for what they believe in.

And people should vote based on what is best for society as a whole, not what is their party tells them to. Republicans are saying that Democrats are being so hard on Kavanaugh simply because he is being appointed by Trump. That's not true at all. There was no accusations or anything like this AT ALL with Gorsuch. The real issue here is, it's much easier for the Republicans to blame this on partisanship, and use that as a backdoor from the situation and to pump their base, than to take the time to find out if the accusations are true or not. It's plain as day.

Stop trying to insert your context into what I've posted.

This is not about Kavanaugh so much as it is about the foundation principles that the D's just threw away, the "innocent" citizens they destroy, to buy themselves time to gain power/fame/time/whatever.

It very much is. Instead of using partisanship and tribalism as a reason to create MORE partisanship and tribalism, people should be doing like Flake and Coons to work together. But what has happened? Flake is being crucified and even having his life threatened for it. Kavanaugh is a perfect example of it. You want to say you are independent, but at the same time you are picking sides. If you are really independent you would pick places to support each side on specific issues, not just blame one side for the problems and not the other.

You can't see the forest for the trees kido. I haven't picked a political side at all, you just can't get past your partisan hackery to comprehend it.

The only /side/ I have is American justice - the rights of my family to not live in fear of mob rule, domestic terrorism, and the abandonment of those American ideals that have kept this nation free for generations.

I have nothing more to say to you, kindly piss off.

When I read your OP, I posted that I agree with you. Now that I have read more of your posts, your true purpose is shining through. I guess I'll pull my post now.

 

[Wry Catcher]

For those of you who may have missed my prior posts, I have been an independent my entire life, (voting nearly 30 years now.) If one looks at my sig they'll note where I lay on various political metrics. In general I refer to myself as a capitalist classical liberal; I'm bisexual, pro-choice, national capitalistic.

If you are in the "political situation" where you've kind of always had to essentially make concessions about what you believe in when you vote this message probably applies to you.

We need to talk about what just happened with the Kavanaugh thing; the /principle/ of it. The D's could have started privately investigating this Ford case in July - they could have saved both Ford and Kavanaugh from the vitriol of making this case public and gotten to the /truth/ without all the hyperbolic bullshit. They /intentionally/ chose to destroy the lives and families of two people /simply/ to retain control of the SCOTUS at best, at worst they did it simply to "resist" the president.

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people and that there was no vote interference or anything that makes his election invalid, even at best - arguing that there were Russian ad campaigns - folks make their choice without anyone forcing them into it. Even if we want to entertain that "Russian's mislead the people with false claims and lies" that is certainly nothing new in politics, and effectually no different than the misleading and lies told by our own politicians of their opponents. The people voted of their own volition and Trump won.

Back to the Kavanaugh thing. So I didn't particularly care if he made it onto the SCOTUS honestly. I'm not a "fan" of him, he's got some rulings in the past I do not like; for example, the Patriot Act, the NSA recording and collecting all those phone calls - I was never entirely satisfied with the argument that "national security" is a good enough reason to invade the privacy of innocent American's without reason and necessity, even if I do recognize that it was/did indeed catch/stop terrorists. It was kind of one of those border-line issues for me where I wasn't quite feeling that the ends justified the means.

That's kind of what I want to talk about with you though, that "the ends justifying the means" thing...

What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the fucking leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

We have witnessed these "leaders" /allowing/ physical violence against their political rivals - not the politicians who one could argue put themselves in the proverbial ring and open themselves up to nutcases, but THE FUCKING CITIZENS who's only "crime" is going to a political rally.

We have witnessed these "leaders" ACTIVELY CALLING for those attacks on INNOCENT CITIZENS who's only "crime" is taking a job with political opposition.

And yesterday, we learned that we have witnessed these "leaders" abandon the core values of this nation; that a man, who's only "crime" is being nominated to the SCOTUS by the president, and/or a woman, who's only "crime' was thinking/believing she was sexually assaulted, should /both/ be utterly destroyed simply to buy these "leaders" time...


This is no longer "politics as usual" and this cannot stand. (I have a husband, four sons, and likely grandsons some day that I'm thinking about here.)

I know our kind sometimes blows off mid-terms as "less important," but we really need to vote this time and as always, we must look at the whole picture when we do so.

And when you do vote, I ask that you ask yourself; what means justify what ends...

You're not any sort of independent. You are a tRumpkin.

Well I am an Independent, and I agree with her. Yes, she mentioned things with a rightward slant, but in general she has a great point. Both of these parties are guilty of heartlessly using whatever ammunition they can find to wrest power from the other side.
The thing I don't find in her OP is what our options are. Go vote? For whom?
The ONLY way to stop these parties from continuing on as they are is for every voter in this country to say NO MORE and refuse to vote at all. There are too many dyed in the wool Dems and Repubs in this country for that to ever happen. I'd like to see the whole party system change, but that won't happen without the agreement of the parties themselves, and that ain't gonna happen.
So what does OP suggest we do? I really want to know.

Term limits.......and stop career politicians..............best stop gap I can see...........

But it would take a Constitutional amendment.

Wrong. Get the money out of elections is the first order of business. Make intentional efforts to mislead the public a felony, and if convicted deny them the right to hold elected or appointed governmental office for life; and any publication to the same standard and fine them and place in prison their ownership and Board of Directors if there are provable intentional efforts to impact our elections.