Fellow Centrists, Classical Liberals, Independents, etc. - We need to talk.

[eagle1462010]

For those of you who may have missed my prior posts, I have been an independent my entire life, (voting nearly 30 years now.) If one looks at my sig they'll note where I lay on various political metrics. In general I refer to myself as a capitalist classical liberal; I'm bisexual, pro-choice, national capitalistic.

If you are in the "political situation" where you've kind of always had to essentially make concessions about what you believe in when you vote this message probably applies to you.

We need to talk about what just happened with the Kavanaugh thing; the /principle/ of it. The D's could have started privately investigating this Ford case in July - they could have saved both Ford and Kavanaugh from the vitriol of making this case public and gotten to the /truth/ without all the hyperbolic bullshit. They /intentionally/ chose to destroy the lives and families of two people /simply/ to retain control of the SCOTUS at best, at worst they did it simply to "resist" the president.

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people and that there was no vote interference or anything that makes his election invalid, even at best - arguing that there were Russian ad campaigns - folks make their choice without anyone forcing them into it. Even if we want to entertain that "Russian's mislead the people with false claims and lies" that is certainly nothing new in politics, and effectually no different than the misleading and lies told by our own politicians of their opponents. The people voted of their own volition and Trump won.

Back to the Kavanaugh thing. So I didn't particularly care if he made it onto the SCOTUS honestly. I'm not a "fan" of him, he's got some rulings in the past I do not like; for example, the Patriot Act, the NSA recording and collecting all those phone calls - I was never entirely satisfied with the argument that "national security" is a good enough reason to invade the privacy of innocent American's without reason and necessity, even if I do recognize that it was/did indeed catch/stop terrorists. It was kind of one of those border-line issues for me where I wasn't quite feeling that the ends justified the means.

That's kind of what I want to talk about with you though, that "the ends justifying the means" thing...

What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the fucking leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

We have witnessed these "leaders" /allowing/ physical violence against their political rivals - not the politicians who one could argue put themselves in the proverbial ring and open themselves up to nutcases, but THE FUCKING CITIZENS who's only "crime" is going to a political rally.

We have witnessed these "leaders" ACTIVELY CALLING for those attacks on INNOCENT CITIZENS who's only "crime" is taking a job with political opposition.

And yesterday, we learned that we have witnessed these "leaders" abandon the core values of this nation; that a man, who's only "crime" is being nominated to the SCOTUS by the president, and/or a woman, who's only "crime' was thinking/believing she was sexually assaulted, should /both/ be utterly destroyed simply to buy these "leaders" time...


This is no longer "politics as usual" and this cannot stand. (I have a husband, four sons, and likely grandsons some day that I'm thinking about here.)

I know our kind sometimes blows off mid-terms as "less important," but we really need to vote this time and as always, we must look at the whole picture when we do so.

And when you do vote, I ask that you ask yourself; what means justify what ends...

You're not any sort of independent. You are a tRumpkin.

Well I am an Independent, and I agree with her. Yes, she mentioned things with a rightward slant, but in general she has a great point. Both of these parties are guilty of heartlessly using whatever ammunition they can find to wrest power from the other side.
The thing I don't find in her OP is what our options are. Go vote? For whom?
The ONLY way to stop these parties from continuing on as they are is for every voter in this country to say NO MORE and refuse to vote at all. There are too many dyed in the wool Dems and Repubs in this country for that to ever happen. I'd like to see the whole party system change, but that won't happen without the agreement of the parties themselves, and that ain't gonna happen.
So what does OP suggest we do? I really want to know.

Term limits.......and stop career politicians..............best stop gap I can see...........

But it would take a Constitutional amendment.

Wrong. Get the money out of elections is the first order of business. Make intentional efforts to mislead the public a felony, and if convicted deny them the right to hold elected or appointed governmental office for life; and any publication to the same standard and fine them and place in prison their ownership and Board of Directors if there are provable intentional efforts to impact our elections.

The real answer was in the Constitution...............enumerated powers.................

We have given them too much power...........they will never cede it.

 

[EverCurious]

For those of you who may have missed my prior posts, I have been an independent my entire life, (voting nearly 30 years now.) If one looks at my sig they'll note where I lay on various political metrics. In general I refer to myself as a capitalist classical liberal; I'm bisexual, pro-choice, national capitalistic.

If you are in the "political situation" where you've kind of always had to essentially make concessions about what you believe in when you vote this message probably applies to you.

We need to talk about what just happened with the Kavanaugh thing; the /principle/ of it. The D's could have started privately investigating this Ford case in July - they could have saved both Ford and Kavanaugh from the vitriol of making this case public and gotten to the /truth/ without all the hyperbolic bullshit. They /intentionally/ chose to destroy the lives and families of two people /simply/ to retain control of the SCOTUS at best, at worst they did it simply to "resist" the president.

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people and that there was no vote interference or anything that makes his election invalid, even at best - arguing that there were Russian ad campaigns - folks make their choice without anyone forcing them into it. Even if we want to entertain that "Russian's mislead the people with false claims and lies" that is certainly nothing new in politics, and effectually no different than the misleading and lies told by our own politicians of their opponents. The people voted of their own volition and Trump won.

Back to the Kavanaugh thing. So I didn't particularly care if he made it onto the SCOTUS honestly. I'm not a "fan" of him, he's got some rulings in the past I do not like; for example, the Patriot Act, the NSA recording and collecting all those phone calls - I was never entirely satisfied with the argument that "national security" is a good enough reason to invade the privacy of innocent American's without reason and necessity, even if I do recognize that it was/did indeed catch/stop terrorists. It was kind of one of those border-line issues for me where I wasn't quite feeling that the ends justified the means.

That's kind of what I want to talk about with you though, that "the ends justifying the means" thing...

What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the fucking leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

We have witnessed these "leaders" /allowing/ physical violence against their political rivals - not the politicians who one could argue put themselves in the proverbial ring and open themselves up to nutcases, but THE FUCKING CITIZENS who's only "crime" is going to a political rally.

We have witnessed these "leaders" ACTIVELY CALLING for those attacks on INNOCENT CITIZENS who's only "crime" is taking a job with political opposition.

And yesterday, we learned that we have witnessed these "leaders" abandon the core values of this nation; that a man, who's only "crime" is being nominated to the SCOTUS by the president, and/or a woman, who's only "crime' was thinking/believing she was sexually assaulted, should /both/ be utterly destroyed simply to buy these "leaders" time...


This is no longer "politics as usual" and this cannot stand. (I have a husband, four sons, and likely grandsons some day that I'm thinking about here.)

I know our kind sometimes blows off mid-terms as "less important," but we really need to vote this time and as always, we must look at the whole picture when we do so.

And when you do vote, I ask that you ask yourself; what means justify what ends...

You're not any sort of independent. You are a tRumpkin.

Well I am an Independent, and I agree with her. Yes, she mentioned things with a rightward slant, but in general she has a great point. Both of these parties are guilty of heartlessly using whatever ammunition they can find to wrest power from the other side.
The thing I don't find in her OP is what our options are. Go vote? For whom?
The ONLY way to stop these parties from continuing on as they are is for every voter in this country to say NO MORE and refuse to vote at all. There are too many dyed in the wool Dems and Repubs in this country for that to ever happen. I'd like to see the whole party system change, but that won't happen without the agreement of the parties themselves, and that ain't gonna happen.
So what does OP suggest we do? I really want to know.

I appreciate your words.

To address your questions, I don't like telling people how to vote or even who to vote for. At most I attempt to convince folks to vote for or against someone in particular that rankled me somehow, but for the most part I just try to help cut through bullshit and lies that are constantly told about the various politicians, or parties (rulings, myths, etc as well.) As for options, mostly actually research whom you're voting for. To the specific issue I complained about with due process, I'd advise checking what they said about Fords story - if they believed it without question then I'd argue they're worthless and just looking to buy your vote, rather than actually doing their "job" (respecting justice in this case)

Not voting isn't the solution, then the radicals will really run the country.

The solution is for most of us to say no more to the vitriol and start respecting each others opinions, even if they're different than ours, and even if they /are/ really important to us.

I'm not so sure about "dyed in the wool" Rs or Ds anymore honestly. I've seen a crap ton of lifetime R/D's declare independence this past couple years for various reasons.

I do agree the party system is fucked and biased. Fair warning here, I'm guessing a bit because it's been a long time since I was helping the Alaska Veteran's Party with their website and I might get some factoids we were talking about wrong (I do very well with typed still images, but moving and "live" things are just "normal".) So like third parties need like 10 times the signatures to get on the ballot. I don't know how to change that bullshit. Third parties get campaign money if they get 4% of the vote (not sure if that was an Alaska thing or a national/every state thing though) But we could help them there maybe (I believe it was $5k but it might have been $10k toward the next years candidate's campaign) Mostly VPA (the national chapter as a whole) complained that they had a really hard time getting over the "wasting your vote" hump, it's really hard to combat that argument because on it's kind of true. I personally tell folks that they had every right to vote for whoever they wanted and fuck anyone who bitches at them about exercising that right. (I ended up defending a bunch of my peeps who wanted to vote third party after Sanders was out, /still/ defending them today because some assholes are trying to blame them for Trump's election - even though most of these kids are on the east coast where Clinton /didn't/ win, assholes don't give a fuck about facts and logic though. Go figure.)

I'm not sure what else to suggest, other than trying to respect folks online, in person, etc. I'm seriously on the fence if I can do that myself, I'm so idk it's just so unacceptable, its such a fundamental thing... I haven't decided what I'm going to do about it yet, so I can't really advise anyone else much more than that. I don't want to play the "REVENGE" game, but I do strongly feel that they need to be "punished" simply to send a message they can't miss and clear out the corrupted ones. I just don't know yet, I'm still feeling ill about it all (although it could just be me getting a flu or something, I actually did throw up once earlier today - Syn makes it hard to distinguish.)

 

[EverCurious]

For those of you who may have missed my prior posts, I have been an independent my entire life, (voting nearly 30 years now.) If one looks at my sig they'll note where I lay on various political metrics. In general I refer to myself as a capitalist classical liberal; I'm bisexual, pro-choice, national capitalistic.

If you are in the "political situation" where you've kind of always had to essentially make concessions about what you believe in when you vote this message probably applies to you.

We need to talk about what just happened with the Kavanaugh thing; the /principle/ of it. The D's could have started privately investigating this Ford case in July - they could have saved both Ford and Kavanaugh from the vitriol of making this case public and gotten to the /truth/ without all the hyperbolic bullshit. They /intentionally/ chose to destroy the lives and families of two people /simply/ to retain control of the SCOTUS at best, at worst they did it simply to "resist" the president.

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people and that there was no vote interference or anything that makes his election invalid, even at best - arguing that there were Russian ad campaigns - folks make their choice without anyone forcing them into it. Even if we want to entertain that "Russian's mislead the people with false claims and lies" that is certainly nothing new in politics, and effectually no different than the misleading and lies told by our own politicians of their opponents. The people voted of their own volition and Trump won.

Back to the Kavanaugh thing. So I didn't particularly care if he made it onto the SCOTUS honestly. I'm not a "fan" of him, he's got some rulings in the past I do not like; for example, the Patriot Act, the NSA recording and collecting all those phone calls - I was never entirely satisfied with the argument that "national security" is a good enough reason to invade the privacy of innocent American's without reason and necessity, even if I do recognize that it was/did indeed catch/stop terrorists. It was kind of one of those border-line issues for me where I wasn't quite feeling that the ends justified the means.

That's kind of what I want to talk about with you though, that "the ends justifying the means" thing...

What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the fucking leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

We have witnessed these "leaders" /allowing/ physical violence against their political rivals - not the politicians who one could argue put themselves in the proverbial ring and open themselves up to nutcases, but THE FUCKING CITIZENS who's only "crime" is going to a political rally.

We have witnessed these "leaders" ACTIVELY CALLING for those attacks on INNOCENT CITIZENS who's only "crime" is taking a job with political opposition.

And yesterday, we learned that we have witnessed these "leaders" abandon the core values of this nation; that a man, who's only "crime" is being nominated to the SCOTUS by the president, and/or a woman, who's only "crime' was thinking/believing she was sexually assaulted, should /both/ be utterly destroyed simply to buy these "leaders" time...


This is no longer "politics as usual" and this cannot stand. (I have a husband, four sons, and likely grandsons some day that I'm thinking about here.)

I know our kind sometimes blows off mid-terms as "less important," but we really need to vote this time and as always, we must look at the whole picture when we do so.

And when you do vote, I ask that you ask yourself; what means justify what ends...

You're not any sort of independent. You are a tRumpkin.

You label everyone. Chill. We are all people.

We may all be homosapien sapiens (H's-S) but not all of us have humanity in our DNA. Of Course there are different breeds of H's-S, some have no, some and more neanderthal DNA than others, and yet the differences in DNA do not prevent procreation.

That said, the Trumpanzee is a different breed. They look the same, and can breed with all other H's-S, but that ends any comparison with other members of the toxonomy of H's-S. Something weird came their way which created this new and odd breed.

Yeah, come into this thread and dehumanize folks over their political beliefs.

Fuck off hack.

 

[Wry Catcher]

For those of you who may have missed my prior posts, I have been an independent my entire life, (voting nearly 30 years now.) If one looks at my sig they'll note where I lay on various political metrics. In general I refer to myself as a capitalist classical liberal; I'm bisexual, pro-choice, national capitalistic.

If you are in the "political situation" where you've kind of always had to essentially make concessions about what you believe in when you vote this message probably applies to you.

We need to talk about what just happened with the Kavanaugh thing; the /principle/ of it. The D's could have started privately investigating this Ford case in July - they could have saved both Ford and Kavanaugh from the vitriol of making this case public and gotten to the /truth/ without all the hyperbolic bullshit. They /intentionally/ chose to destroy the lives and families of two people /simply/ to retain control of the SCOTUS at best, at worst they did it simply to "resist" the president.

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people and that there was no vote interference or anything that makes his election invalid, even at best - arguing that there were Russian ad campaigns - folks make their choice without anyone forcing them into it. Even if we want to entertain that "Russian's mislead the people with false claims and lies" that is certainly nothing new in politics, and effectually no different than the misleading and lies told by our own politicians of their opponents. The people voted of their own volition and Trump won.

Back to the Kavanaugh thing. So I didn't particularly care if he made it onto the SCOTUS honestly. I'm not a "fan" of him, he's got some rulings in the past I do not like; for example, the Patriot Act, the NSA recording and collecting all those phone calls - I was never entirely satisfied with the argument that "national security" is a good enough reason to invade the privacy of innocent American's without reason and necessity, even if I do recognize that it was/did indeed catch/stop terrorists. It was kind of one of those border-line issues for me where I wasn't quite feeling that the ends justified the means.

That's kind of what I want to talk about with you though, that "the ends justifying the means" thing...

What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the fucking leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

We have witnessed these "leaders" /allowing/ physical violence against their political rivals - not the politicians who one could argue put themselves in the proverbial ring and open themselves up to nutcases, but THE FUCKING CITIZENS who's only "crime" is going to a political rally.

We have witnessed these "leaders" ACTIVELY CALLING for those attacks on INNOCENT CITIZENS who's only "crime" is taking a job with political opposition.

And yesterday, we learned that we have witnessed these "leaders" abandon the core values of this nation; that a man, who's only "crime" is being nominated to the SCOTUS by the president, and/or a woman, who's only "crime' was thinking/believing she was sexually assaulted, should /both/ be utterly destroyed simply to buy these "leaders" time...


This is no longer "politics as usual" and this cannot stand. (I have a husband, four sons, and likely grandsons some day that I'm thinking about here.)

I know our kind sometimes blows off mid-terms as "less important," but we really need to vote this time and as always, we must look at the whole picture when we do so.

And when you do vote, I ask that you ask yourself; what means justify what ends...

You're not any sort of independent. You are a tRumpkin.

You label everyone. Chill. We are all people.

We may all be homosapien sapiens (H's-S) but not all of us have humanity in our DNA. Of Course there are different breeds of H's-S, some have no, some and more neanderthal DNA than others, and yet the differences in DNA do not prevent procreation.

That said, the Trumpanzee is a different breed. They look the same, and can breed with all other H's-S, but that ends any comparison with other members of the toxonomy of H's-S. Something weird came their way which created this new and odd breed.

Yeah, come into this thread and dehumanize folks over their political beliefs.

Fuck off hack.

I scored Informative and telling. Maybe in your wisdom oh wise and wonderful Curious Oz you can give example of rabid trump supporters,

(me hopes you take no offense with my use of the word rabid, they do seem to foam at the mouth, metaphorically)

not showing to hold a callous disregard for others?

I await your judgement with mild interests.

 

[Lewdog]

Well here is the thing. First we have no idea who actually released Ford's identity.

Secondly, if we do dodge a bullet on Kavanaugh, the hearing exposed that he is not as non-partisan as a judge is supposed to be. He has a true hatred of the left, and actually used a conspiracy theory that is unproven, that the Clintons are behind this whole thing. He has no idea if that is true or not, and he used it in his hearing. We don't need conspiracy theory nutjobs serving on the Supreme Court.

Lastly, as a judge he should have known better than to say that statements made by Mark Judge and the other person Ford said was at the party, backed up his statement that he was never there. In fact that isn't true. They said they don't remember the party, that isn't the same as saying it didn't happen and that the party didn't happen. Those are two totally different things. A judge that is going to serve on the highest court in the land should know better, and if he does know better, but instead made that statement, then he was being dishonest.

This isn't exactly a debate post... Everyone is welcome to whatever opinion and whatever facts they find most compelling.

I am simply asking that folks decide where their principles lay - and to go vote for what they believe in.

And people should vote based on what is best for society as a whole, not what is their party tells them to. Republicans are saying that Democrats are being so hard on Kavanaugh simply because he is being appointed by Trump. That's not true at all. There was no accusations or anything like this AT ALL with Gorsuch. The real issue here is, it's much easier for the Republicans to blame this on partisanship, and use that as a backdoor from the situation and to pump their base, than to take the time to find out if the accusations are true or not. It's plain as day.

Stop trying to insert your context into what I've posted.

This is not about Kavanaugh so much as it is about the foundation principles that the D's just threw away, the "innocent" citizens they destroy, to buy themselves time to gain power/fame/time/whatever.

It very much is. Instead of using partisanship and tribalism as a reason to create MORE partisanship and tribalism, people should be doing like Flake and Coons to work together. But what has happened? Flake is being crucified and even having his life threatened for it. Kavanaugh is a perfect example of it. You want to say you are independent, but at the same time you are picking sides. If you are really independent you would pick places to support each side on specific issues, not just blame one side for the problems and not the other.

You do realize we see your partisanship and tribalism, right? They're only good people when they agree with your world view, they only help America by hurting Repubicans.

Please.

You don't know what partisanship and tribalism are. You might want to look that up.

 

[OldLady]

For those of you who may have missed my prior posts, I have been an independent my entire life, (voting nearly 30 years now.) If one looks at my sig they'll note where I lay on various political metrics. In general I refer to myself as a capitalist classical liberal; I'm bisexual, pro-choice, national capitalistic.

If you are in the "political situation" where you've kind of always had to essentially make concessions about what you believe in when you vote this message probably applies to you.

We need to talk about what just happened with the Kavanaugh thing; the /principle/ of it. The D's could have started privately investigating this Ford case in July - they could have saved both Ford and Kavanaugh from the vitriol of making this case public and gotten to the /truth/ without all the hyperbolic bullshit. They /intentionally/ chose to destroy the lives and families of two people /simply/ to retain control of the SCOTUS at best, at worst they did it simply to "resist" the president.

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people and that there was no vote interference or anything that makes his election invalid, even at best - arguing that there were Russian ad campaigns - folks make their choice without anyone forcing them into it. Even if we want to entertain that "Russian's mislead the people with false claims and lies" that is certainly nothing new in politics, and effectually no different than the misleading and lies told by our own politicians of their opponents. The people voted of their own volition and Trump won.

Back to the Kavanaugh thing. So I didn't particularly care if he made it onto the SCOTUS honestly. I'm not a "fan" of him, he's got some rulings in the past I do not like; for example, the Patriot Act, the NSA recording and collecting all those phone calls - I was never entirely satisfied with the argument that "national security" is a good enough reason to invade the privacy of innocent American's without reason and necessity, even if I do recognize that it was/did indeed catch/stop terrorists. It was kind of one of those border-line issues for me where I wasn't quite feeling that the ends justified the means.

That's kind of what I want to talk about with you though, that "the ends justifying the means" thing...

What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the fucking leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

We have witnessed these "leaders" /allowing/ physical violence against their political rivals - not the politicians who one could argue put themselves in the proverbial ring and open themselves up to nutcases, but THE FUCKING CITIZENS who's only "crime" is going to a political rally.

We have witnessed these "leaders" ACTIVELY CALLING for those attacks on INNOCENT CITIZENS who's only "crime" is taking a job with political opposition.

And yesterday, we learned that we have witnessed these "leaders" abandon the core values of this nation; that a man, who's only "crime" is being nominated to the SCOTUS by the president, and/or a woman, who's only "crime' was thinking/believing she was sexually assaulted, should /both/ be utterly destroyed simply to buy these "leaders" time...


This is no longer "politics as usual" and this cannot stand. (I have a husband, four sons, and likely grandsons some day that I'm thinking about here.)

I know our kind sometimes blows off mid-terms as "less important," but we really need to vote this time and as always, we must look at the whole picture when we do so.

And when you do vote, I ask that you ask yourself; what means justify what ends...

You're not any sort of independent. You are a tRumpkin.

Well I am an Independent, and I agree with her. Yes, she mentioned things with a rightward slant, but in general she has a great point. Both of these parties are guilty of heartlessly using whatever ammunition they can find to wrest power from the other side.
The thing I don't find in her OP is what our options are. Go vote? For whom?
The ONLY way to stop these parties from continuing on as they are is for every voter in this country to say NO MORE and refuse to vote at all. There are too many dyed in the wool Dems and Repubs in this country for that to ever happen. I'd like to see the whole party system change, but that won't happen without the agreement of the parties themselves, and that ain't gonna happen.
So what does OP suggest we do? I really want to know.

I appreciate your words.

To address your questions, I don't like telling people how to vote or even who to vote for. At most I attempt to convince folks to vote for or against someone in particular that rankled me somehow, but for the most part I just try to help cut through bullshit and lies that are constantly told about the various politicians, or parties (rulings, myths, etc as well.) As for options, mostly actually research whom you're voting for. To the specific issue I complained about with due process, I'd advise checking what they said about Fords story - if they believed it without question then I'd argue they're worthless and just looking to buy your vote, rather than actually doing their "job" (respecting justice in this case)

Not voting isn't the solution, then the radicals will really run the country.

The solution is for most of us to say no more to the vitriol and start respecting each others opinions, even if they're different than ours, and even if they /are/ really important to us.

I'm not so sure about "dyed in the wool" Rs or Ds anymore honestly. I've seen a crap ton of lifetime R/D's declare independence this past couple years for various reasons.

I do agree the party system is fucked and biased. Fair warning here, I'm guessing a bit because it's been a long time since I was helping the Alaska Veteran's Party with their website and I might get some factoids we were talking about wrong (I do very well with typed still images, but moving and "live" things are just "normal".) So like third parties need like 10 times the signatures to get on the ballot. I don't know how to change that bullshit. Third parties get campaign money if they get 4% of the vote (not sure if that was an Alaska thing or a national/every state thing though) But we could help them there maybe (I believe it was $5k but it might have been $10k toward the next years candidate's campaign) Mostly VPA (the national chapter as a whole) complained that they had a really hard time getting over the "wasting your vote" hump, it's really hard to combat that argument because on it's kind of true. I personally tell folks that they had every right to vote for whoever they wanted and fuck anyone who bitches at them about exercising that right. (I ended up defending a bunch of my peeps who wanted to vote third party after Sanders was out, /still/ defending them today because some assholes are trying to blame them for Trump's election - even though most of these kids are on the east coast where Clinton /didn't/ win, assholes don't give a fuck about facts and logic though. Go figure.)

I'm not sure what else to suggest, other than trying to respect folks online, in person, etc. I'm seriously on the fence if I can do that myself, I'm so idk it's just so unacceptable, its such a fundamental thing... I haven't decided what I'm going to do about it yet, so I can't really advise anyone else much more than that. I don't want to play the "REVENGE" game, but I do strongly feel that they need to be "punished" simply to send a message they can't miss and clear out the corrupted ones. I just don't know yet, I'm still feeling ill about it all (although it could just be me getting a flu or something, I actually did throw up once earlier today - Syn makes it hard to distinguish.)

Not voting isn't the solution, then the radicals will really run the country.

The solution is for most of us to say no more to the vitriol and start respecting each others opinions, even if they're different than ours, and even if they /are/ really important to us.
If not voting isn't the solution, but there is only the obvious DemRepub choices, voting simply perpetuates the problem. Right now, I don't want to give a single Dem or Repub a vote, and that is a problem. I even like Senator Collins, so I'm glad she's not up this year, because I'm not in a rewarding mood, AT ALL.
But you have a good point, if we don't vote, the extremists win. Do you see how it feels as if my hand is being forced and my choices empty?

 

[Wry Catcher]

For those of you who may have missed my prior posts, I have been an independent my entire life, (voting nearly 30 years now.) If one looks at my sig they'll note where I lay on various political metrics. In general I refer to myself as a capitalist classical liberal; I'm bisexual, pro-choice, national capitalistic.

If you are in the "political situation" where you've kind of always had to essentially make concessions about what you believe in when you vote this message probably applies to you.

We need to talk about what just happened with the Kavanaugh thing; the /principle/ of it. The D's could have started privately investigating this Ford case in July - they could have saved both Ford and Kavanaugh from the vitriol of making this case public and gotten to the /truth/ without all the hyperbolic bullshit. They /intentionally/ chose to destroy the lives and families of two people /simply/ to retain control of the SCOTUS at best, at worst they did it simply to "resist" the president.

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people and that there was no vote interference or anything that makes his election invalid, even at best - arguing that there were Russian ad campaigns - folks make their choice without anyone forcing them into it. Even if we want to entertain that "Russian's mislead the people with false claims and lies" that is certainly nothing new in politics, and effectually no different than the misleading and lies told by our own politicians of their opponents. The people voted of their own volition and Trump won.

Back to the Kavanaugh thing. So I didn't particularly care if he made it onto the SCOTUS honestly. I'm not a "fan" of him, he's got some rulings in the past I do not like; for example, the Patriot Act, the NSA recording and collecting all those phone calls - I was never entirely satisfied with the argument that "national security" is a good enough reason to invade the privacy of innocent American's without reason and necessity, even if I do recognize that it was/did indeed catch/stop terrorists. It was kind of one of those border-line issues for me where I wasn't quite feeling that the ends justified the means.

That's kind of what I want to talk about with you though, that "the ends justifying the means" thing...

What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the fucking leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

We have witnessed these "leaders" /allowing/ physical violence against their political rivals - not the politicians who one could argue put themselves in the proverbial ring and open themselves up to nutcases, but THE FUCKING CITIZENS who's only "crime" is going to a political rally.

We have witnessed these "leaders" ACTIVELY CALLING for those attacks on INNOCENT CITIZENS who's only "crime" is taking a job with political opposition.

And yesterday, we learned that we have witnessed these "leaders" abandon the core values of this nation; that a man, who's only "crime" is being nominated to the SCOTUS by the president, and/or a woman, who's only "crime' was thinking/believing she was sexually assaulted, should /both/ be utterly destroyed simply to buy these "leaders" time...


This is no longer "politics as usual" and this cannot stand. (I have a husband, four sons, and likely grandsons some day that I'm thinking about here.)

I know our kind sometimes blows off mid-terms as "less important," but we really need to vote this time and as always, we must look at the whole picture when we do so.

And when you do vote, I ask that you ask yourself; what means justify what ends...

You're not any sort of independent. You are a tRumpkin.

Well I am an Independent, and I agree with her. Yes, she mentioned things with a rightward slant, but in general she has a great point. Both of these parties are guilty of heartlessly using whatever ammunition they can find to wrest power from the other side.
The thing I don't find in her OP is what our options are. Go vote? For whom?
The ONLY way to stop these parties from continuing on as they are is for every voter in this country to say NO MORE and refuse to vote at all. There are too many dyed in the wool Dems and Repubs in this country for that to ever happen. I'd like to see the whole party system change, but that won't happen without the agreement of the parties themselves, and that ain't gonna happen.
So what does OP suggest we do? I really want to know.

I appreciate your words.

To address your questions, I don't like telling people how to vote or even who to vote for. At most I attempt to convince folks to vote for or against someone in particular that rankled me somehow, but for the most part I just try to help cut through bullshit and lies that are constantly told about the various politicians, or parties (rulings, myths, etc as well.) As for options, mostly actually research whom you're voting for. To the specific issue I complained about with due process, I'd advise checking what they said about Fords story - if they believed it without question then I'd argue they're worthless and just looking to buy your vote, rather than actually doing their "job" (respecting justice in this case)

Not voting isn't the solution, then the radicals will really run the country.

The solution is for most of us to say no more to the vitriol and start respecting each others opinions, even if they're different than ours, and even if they /are/ really important to us.

I'm not so sure about "dyed in the wool" Rs or Ds anymore honestly. I've seen a crap ton of lifetime R/D's declare independence this past couple years for various reasons.

I do agree the party system is fucked and biased. Fair warning here, I'm guessing a bit because it's been a long time since I was helping the Alaska Veteran's Party with their website and I might get some factoids we were talking about wrong (I do very well with typed still images, but moving and "live" things are just "normal".) So like third parties need like 10 times the signatures to get on the ballot. I don't know how to change that bullshit. Third parties get campaign money if they get 4% of the vote (not sure if that was an Alaska thing or a national/every state thing though) But we could help them there maybe (I believe it was $5k but it might have been $10k toward the next years candidate's campaign) Mostly VPA (the national chapter as a whole) complained that they had a really hard time getting over the "wasting your vote" hump, it's really hard to combat that argument because on it's kind of true. I personally tell folks that they had every right to vote for whoever they wanted and fuck anyone who bitches at them about exercising that right. (I ended up defending a bunch of my peeps who wanted to vote third party after Sanders was out, /still/ defending them today because some assholes are trying to blame them for Trump's election - even though most of these kids are on the east coast where Clinton /didn't/ win, assholes don't give a fuck about facts and logic though. Go figure.)

I'm not sure what else to suggest, other than trying to respect folks online, in person, etc. I'm seriously on the fence if I can do that myself, I'm so idk it's just so unacceptable, its such a fundamental thing... I haven't decided what I'm going to do about it yet, so I can't really advise anyone else much more than that. I don't want to play the "REVENGE" game, but I do strongly feel that they need to be "punished" simply to send a message they can't miss and clear out the corrupted ones. I just don't know yet, I'm still feeling ill about it all (although it could just be me getting a flu or something, I actually did throw up once earlier today - Syn makes it hard to distinguish.)

Not voting isn't the solution, then the radicals will really run the country.

The solution is for most of us to say no more to the vitriol and start respecting each others opinions, even if they're different than ours, and even if they /are/ really important to us.
If not voting isn't the solution, but there is only the obvious DemRepub choices, voting simply perpetuates the problem. Right now, I don't want to give a single Dem or Repub a vote, and that is a problem. I even like Senator Collins, so I'm glad she's not up this year, because I'm not in a rewarding mood, AT ALL.
But you have a good point, if we don't vote, the extremists win. Do you see how it feels as if my hand is being forced and my choices empty?

Voting seems clear to me; the genius of the COTUS is in the Separation of Power. Only replacing the leadership in the Senate, and in the H. or Rep. can We the People restore our nation to health.

Every women, every man and women who have a mom, a daughter, a daughter-in-law or other female relative or friend, have duty to them to vote for the Democratic nominee.

The Republican's have shown in clear detail that they do not support womens' safety, fair compensation for women when they do the same job as men, and seek to control the most private lives of women.

 

[EverCurious]

For those of you who may have missed my prior posts, I have been an independent my entire life, (voting nearly 30 years now.) If one looks at my sig they'll note where I lay on various political metrics. In general I refer to myself as a capitalist classical liberal; I'm bisexual, pro-choice, national capitalistic.

If you are in the "political situation" where you've kind of always had to essentially make concessions about what you believe in when you vote this message probably applies to you.

We need to talk about what just happened with the Kavanaugh thing; the /principle/ of it. The D's could have started privately investigating this Ford case in July - they could have saved both Ford and Kavanaugh from the vitriol of making this case public and gotten to the /truth/ without all the hyperbolic bullshit. They /intentionally/ chose to destroy the lives and families of two people /simply/ to retain control of the SCOTUS at best, at worst they did it simply to "resist" the president.

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people and that there was no vote interference or anything that makes his election invalid, even at best - arguing that there were Russian ad campaigns - folks make their choice without anyone forcing them into it. Even if we want to entertain that "Russian's mislead the people with false claims and lies" that is certainly nothing new in politics, and effectually no different than the misleading and lies told by our own politicians of their opponents. The people voted of their own volition and Trump won.

Back to the Kavanaugh thing. So I didn't particularly care if he made it onto the SCOTUS honestly. I'm not a "fan" of him, he's got some rulings in the past I do not like; for example, the Patriot Act, the NSA recording and collecting all those phone calls - I was never entirely satisfied with the argument that "national security" is a good enough reason to invade the privacy of innocent American's without reason and necessity, even if I do recognize that it was/did indeed catch/stop terrorists. It was kind of one of those border-line issues for me where I wasn't quite feeling that the ends justified the means.

That's kind of what I want to talk about with you though, that "the ends justifying the means" thing...

What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the fucking leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

We have witnessed these "leaders" /allowing/ physical violence against their political rivals - not the politicians who one could argue put themselves in the proverbial ring and open themselves up to nutcases, but THE FUCKING CITIZENS who's only "crime" is going to a political rally.

We have witnessed these "leaders" ACTIVELY CALLING for those attacks on INNOCENT CITIZENS who's only "crime" is taking a job with political opposition.

And yesterday, we learned that we have witnessed these "leaders" abandon the core values of this nation; that a man, who's only "crime" is being nominated to the SCOTUS by the president, and/or a woman, who's only "crime' was thinking/believing she was sexually assaulted, should /both/ be utterly destroyed simply to buy these "leaders" time...


This is no longer "politics as usual" and this cannot stand. (I have a husband, four sons, and likely grandsons some day that I'm thinking about here.)

I know our kind sometimes blows off mid-terms as "less important," but we really need to vote this time and as always, we must look at the whole picture when we do so.

And when you do vote, I ask that you ask yourself; what means justify what ends...

You're not any sort of independent. You are a tRumpkin.

You label everyone. Chill. We are all people.

We may all be homosapien sapiens (H's-S) but not all of us have humanity in our DNA. Of Course there are different breeds of H's-S, some have no, some and more neanderthal DNA than others, and yet the differences in DNA do not prevent procreation.

That said, the Trumpanzee is a different breed. They look the same, and can breed with all other H's-S, but that ends any comparison with other members of the toxonomy of H's-S. Something weird came their way which created this new and odd breed.

Yeah, come into this thread and dehumanize folks over their political beliefs.

Fuck off hack.

I scored Informative and telling. Maybe in your wisdom oh wise and wonderful Curious Oz you can give example of rabid trump supporters,

(me hopes you take no offense with my use of the word rabid, they do seem to foam at the mouth, metaphorically)

not showing to hold a callous disregard for others?

I await your judgement with mild interests.

Yes, well my callous disregard for you in particular was well earned. Finding someone completely without merit to discuss dog shit with, much less anything of importance, and thus choosing to treat them with deserved contempt, does not make one "foaming at the mouth."

(Or to put it in simple words, I do not like you, at all. We do hope that you take no offence, of course; because faking politeness after the rudeness is done makes everything okay, amiright?)

Also, shouldn't you stay away from direct communication's with me so you don't get fingered by the FBI for talking to "Russian agents"? Admittedly you were not as nearly parano... aah apologies, let us go with, "emphatic" as charwin was, but your accusation was certainly as credible as Mrs. Fords, which, as we all now know, means the government should believe it is true and take action upon such truths. Perhaps you should go bleach your hard drive before I'm thrown into Guantanamo for understanding hacking and bothering to explain it to the forum...

 

[Wry Catcher]

You're not any sort of independent. You are a tRumpkin.

You label everyone. Chill. We are all people.

We may all be homosapien sapiens (H's-S) but not all of us have humanity in our DNA. Of Course there are different breeds of H's-S, some have no, some and more neanderthal DNA than others, and yet the differences in DNA do not prevent procreation.

That said, the Trumpanzee is a different breed. They look the same, and can breed with all other H's-S, but that ends any comparison with other members of the toxonomy of H's-S. Something weird came their way which created this new and odd breed.

Yeah, come into this thread and dehumanize folks over their political beliefs.

Fuck off hack.

I scored Informative and telling. Maybe in your wisdom oh wise and wonderful Curious Oz you can give example of rabid trump supporters,

(me hopes you take no offense with my use of the word rabid, they do seem to foam at the mouth, metaphorically)

not showing to hold a callous disregard for others?

I await your judgement with mild interests.

Yes, well my callous disregard for you in particular was well earned. Finding someone completely without merit to discuss dog shit with, much less anything of importance, and thus choosing to treat them with deserved contempt, does not make one "foaming at the mouth."

(Or to put it in simple words, I do not like you, at all. We do hope that you take no offence, of course; because faking politeness after the rudeness is done makes everything okay, amiright?)

Also, shouldn't you stay away from direct communication's with me so you don't get fingered by the FBI for talking to "Russian agents"? Admittedly you were not as nearly parano... aah apologies, let us go with, "emphatic" as charwin was, but your accusation was certainly as credible as Mrs. Fords, which, as we all now know, means the government should believe it is true and take action upon such truths. Perhaps you should go bleach your hard drive before I'm thrown into Guantanamo for understanding hacking and bothering to explain it to the forum...

I have two questions, just for you:

1. When did you stop seeing your therapist;
2. When did you stop taking your meds?

 

[skews13]

For those of you who may have missed my prior posts, I have been an independent my entire life, (voting nearly 30 years now.) If one looks at my sig they'll note where I lay on various political metrics. In general I refer to myself as a capitalist classical liberal; I'm bisexual, pro-choice, national capitalistic.

If you are in the "political situation" where you've kind of always had to essentially make concessions about what you believe in when you vote this message probably applies to you.

We need to talk about what just happened with the Kavanaugh thing; the /principle/ of it. The D's could have started privately investigating this Ford case in July - they could have saved both Ford and Kavanaugh from the vitriol of making this case public and gotten to the /truth/ without all the hyperbolic bullshit. They /intentionally/ chose to destroy the lives and families of two people /simply/ to retain control of the SCOTUS at best, at worst they did it simply to "resist" the president.

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people and that there was no vote interference or anything that makes his election invalid, even at best - arguing that there were Russian ad campaigns - folks make their choice without anyone forcing them into it. Even if we want to entertain that "Russian's mislead the people with false claims and lies" that is certainly nothing new in politics, and effectually no different than the misleading and lies told by our own politicians of their opponents. The people voted of their own volition and Trump won.

Back to the Kavanaugh thing. So I didn't particularly care if he made it onto the SCOTUS honestly. I'm not a "fan" of him, he's got some rulings in the past I do not like; for example, the Patriot Act, the NSA recording and collecting all those phone calls - I was never entirely satisfied with the argument that "national security" is a good enough reason to invade the privacy of innocent American's without reason and necessity, even if I do recognize that it was/did indeed catch/stop terrorists. It was kind of one of those border-line issues for me where I wasn't quite feeling that the ends justified the means.

That's kind of what I want to talk about with you though, that "the ends justifying the means" thing...

What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the fucking leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

We have witnessed these "leaders" /allowing/ physical violence against their political rivals - not the politicians who one could argue put themselves in the proverbial ring and open themselves up to nutcases, but THE FUCKING CITIZENS who's only "crime" is going to a political rally.

We have witnessed these "leaders" ACTIVELY CALLING for those attacks on INNOCENT CITIZENS who's only "crime" is taking a job with political opposition.

And yesterday, we learned that we have witnessed these "leaders" abandon the core values of this nation; that a man, who's only "crime" is being nominated to the SCOTUS by the president, and/or a woman, who's only "crime' was thinking/believing she was sexually assaulted, should /both/ be utterly destroyed simply to buy these "leaders" time...


This is no longer "politics as usual" and this cannot stand. (I have a husband, four sons, and likely grandsons some day that I'm thinking about here.)

I know our kind sometimes blows off mid-terms as "less important," but we really need to vote this time and as always, we must look at the whole picture when we do so.

And when you do vote, I ask that you ask yourself; what means justify what ends...

more and more people need to realize this isn't about kavanaugh anymore.

it's about what we allow ourselves to do to each other in the name of "patriotism".

Has nothing to do with patriotism.

You are either for protections for the working class against corporations that will exploit them with the blessings of politicians that take bribes from them, and pass laws blessed by a packed court system

Or you are not for protections for the working class against corporations that will exploit them with the blessings of politicians that take bribes from them, and pass laws blessed by a packed court system.

You are either for a clear separation of church and state

Or you are not for a clear separation of church and state

You are either for a womans right to choose

Or you are not for a womans right to choose

Let me very clear about this. The majority of Americans are never going to take lying down, corporations exploiting their working lives.

The majority of Americans are not going to live under any kind of religious rule whatsoever.

The majority of Americans are going to support a womans right to choose.

Those numbers are only growing. Anyone that thinks they will have to settle for any decision from a packed kangaroo court from a few old rich conservative white men,

Are sadly fucking mistaken.

So feel free to talk amongst yourselves, to figure out how you plan on existing in a country where that's never going to happen, and get back to us on how you plan on fitting in with the majority, not the majority having to fit in with you.

Take your time.

 

[EverCurious]

For those of you who may have missed my prior posts, I have been an independent my entire life, (voting nearly 30 years now.) If one looks at my sig they'll note where I lay on various political metrics. In general I refer to myself as a capitalist classical liberal; I'm bisexual, pro-choice, national capitalistic.

If you are in the "political situation" where you've kind of always had to essentially make concessions about what you believe in when you vote this message probably applies to you.

We need to talk about what just happened with the Kavanaugh thing; the /principle/ of it. The D's could have started privately investigating this Ford case in July - they could have saved both Ford and Kavanaugh from the vitriol of making this case public and gotten to the /truth/ without all the hyperbolic bullshit. They /intentionally/ chose to destroy the lives and families of two people /simply/ to retain control of the SCOTUS at best, at worst they did it simply to "resist" the president.

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people and that there was no vote interference or anything that makes his election invalid, even at best - arguing that there were Russian ad campaigns - folks make their choice without anyone forcing them into it. Even if we want to entertain that "Russian's mislead the people with false claims and lies" that is certainly nothing new in politics, and effectually no different than the misleading and lies told by our own politicians of their opponents. The people voted of their own volition and Trump won.

Back to the Kavanaugh thing. So I didn't particularly care if he made it onto the SCOTUS honestly. I'm not a "fan" of him, he's got some rulings in the past I do not like; for example, the Patriot Act, the NSA recording and collecting all those phone calls - I was never entirely satisfied with the argument that "national security" is a good enough reason to invade the privacy of innocent American's without reason and necessity, even if I do recognize that it was/did indeed catch/stop terrorists. It was kind of one of those border-line issues for me where I wasn't quite feeling that the ends justified the means.

That's kind of what I want to talk about with you though, that "the ends justifying the means" thing...

What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the fucking leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

We have witnessed these "leaders" /allowing/ physical violence against their political rivals - not the politicians who one could argue put themselves in the proverbial ring and open themselves up to nutcases, but THE FUCKING CITIZENS who's only "crime" is going to a political rally.

We have witnessed these "leaders" ACTIVELY CALLING for those attacks on INNOCENT CITIZENS who's only "crime" is taking a job with political opposition.

And yesterday, we learned that we have witnessed these "leaders" abandon the core values of this nation; that a man, who's only "crime" is being nominated to the SCOTUS by the president, and/or a woman, who's only "crime' was thinking/believing she was sexually assaulted, should /both/ be utterly destroyed simply to buy these "leaders" time...


This is no longer "politics as usual" and this cannot stand. (I have a husband, four sons, and likely grandsons some day that I'm thinking about here.)

I know our kind sometimes blows off mid-terms as "less important," but we really need to vote this time and as always, we must look at the whole picture when we do so.

And when you do vote, I ask that you ask yourself; what means justify what ends...

You're not any sort of independent. You are a tRumpkin.

Well I am an Independent, and I agree with her. Yes, she mentioned things with a rightward slant, but in general she has a great point. Both of these parties are guilty of heartlessly using whatever ammunition they can find to wrest power from the other side.
The thing I don't find in her OP is what our options are. Go vote? For whom?
The ONLY way to stop these parties from continuing on as they are is for every voter in this country to say NO MORE and refuse to vote at all. There are too many dyed in the wool Dems and Repubs in this country for that to ever happen. I'd like to see the whole party system change, but that won't happen without the agreement of the parties themselves, and that ain't gonna happen.
So what does OP suggest we do? I really want to know.

I appreciate your words.

To address your questions, I don't like telling people how to vote or even who to vote for. At most I attempt to convince folks to vote for or against someone in particular that rankled me somehow, but for the most part I just try to help cut through bullshit and lies that are constantly told about the various politicians, or parties (rulings, myths, etc as well.) As for options, mostly actually research whom you're voting for. To the specific issue I complained about with due process, I'd advise checking what they said about Fords story - if they believed it without question then I'd argue they're worthless and just looking to buy your vote, rather than actually doing their "job" (respecting justice in this case)

Not voting isn't the solution, then the radicals will really run the country.

The solution is for most of us to say no more to the vitriol and start respecting each others opinions, even if they're different than ours, and even if they /are/ really important to us.

I'm not so sure about "dyed in the wool" Rs or Ds anymore honestly. I've seen a crap ton of lifetime R/D's declare independence this past couple years for various reasons.

I do agree the party system is fucked and biased. Fair warning here, I'm guessing a bit because it's been a long time since I was helping the Alaska Veteran's Party with their website and I might get some factoids we were talking about wrong (I do very well with typed still images, but moving and "live" things are just "normal".) So like third parties need like 10 times the signatures to get on the ballot. I don't know how to change that bullshit. Third parties get campaign money if they get 4% of the vote (not sure if that was an Alaska thing or a national/every state thing though) But we could help them there maybe (I believe it was $5k but it might have been $10k toward the next years candidate's campaign) Mostly VPA (the national chapter as a whole) complained that they had a really hard time getting over the "wasting your vote" hump, it's really hard to combat that argument because on it's kind of true. I personally tell folks that they had every right to vote for whoever they wanted and fuck anyone who bitches at them about exercising that right. (I ended up defending a bunch of my peeps who wanted to vote third party after Sanders was out, /still/ defending them today because some assholes are trying to blame them for Trump's election - even though most of these kids are on the east coast where Clinton /didn't/ win, assholes don't give a fuck about facts and logic though. Go figure.)

I'm not sure what else to suggest, other than trying to respect folks online, in person, etc. I'm seriously on the fence if I can do that myself, I'm so idk it's just so unacceptable, its such a fundamental thing... I haven't decided what I'm going to do about it yet, so I can't really advise anyone else much more than that. I don't want to play the "REVENGE" game, but I do strongly feel that they need to be "punished" simply to send a message they can't miss and clear out the corrupted ones. I just don't know yet, I'm still feeling ill about it all (although it could just be me getting a flu or something, I actually did throw up once earlier today - Syn makes it hard to distinguish.)

Not voting isn't the solution, then the radicals will really run the country.

The solution is for most of us to say no more to the vitriol and start respecting each others opinions, even if they're different than ours, and even if they /are/ really important to us.
If not voting isn't the solution, but there is only the obvious DemRepub choices, voting simply perpetuates the problem. Right now, I don't want to give a single Dem or Repub a vote, and that is a problem. I even like Senator Collins, so I'm glad she's not up this year, because I'm not in a rewarding mood, AT ALL.
But you have a good point, if we don't vote, the extremists win. Do you see how it feels as if my hand is being forced and my choices empty?

Dear, I recognize your pain on the issue, but you are talking to someone who for 30 years has never once in her entire voting life, had a candidate whom reflected her views. Trust me, you get used to it, you learn to prioritize, you learn to actually think about what matters 'most' to you in every single election. And perhaps that is the most irritating thing about it when you are forced to change 'what matters most' to you, it often feels like you're selling out something or someone. So you obsess over multiple candidates trying to find something on them that will help you make that decision, but eventually you come to realize that you should have been doing that all along. You come to realize that your entire life of being an "activist" and trying to "move forward" on a key belief (was SSM for me) had often led you to mindlessly vote for a candidate based on that singular key issue, sometimes in spite of that candidates other policies.

The worst part of that, the most annoying part of all that, is when you check that "single key issue" candidate and find out that they did jack fuck all to make your 'what matters most' this time happen. Turns out catch phrases are bullshit and there's not a hell of a lot of reward when you vote based on slogans. It is /very/ disheartening, I quit politics and stopped voting a few years myself. Even though my life was so much less "doom and gloom" and I had a lot more free time, I couldn't stay away (and that's how I ended up on this board some years ago heh) Sometimes I wonder if I have an addiction, but I figure it's not such a bad addiction to have because it matters, not just to the 400K in Alaska, not just to the 320M in the US, but to the entire world. My "activist" side is pleased enough with "saving the world" and that makes it a lot easier to let go of the 'not most important' issues that one has to let go of. You do get used to not having a party.

OL, I'm not going to tell you, or anyone else, who to vote for, because 'what matters most' is likely different for everyone, if "wreck Trump" is really more important to you, then do what you gotta do for what you truly believe in. If you decide you want to sit out because you're so disgusted/fed up/whatever I will not blame you one bit. If you decide to vote D, because that's 'what matters most' to you, that is fine. If you decide to vote R, that's fine. If you vote third party because they touch your 'what matters most' to you, that's cool too. My "request" is that you look at the candidate your going to vote for and decide if they represent an America that you'd want yourself and your family to live in - decide if the "end" of that/those issues, justify the "means" of what you'll be 'giving up' by voting for said candidate.

As an I, you learn that there is no such thing as "always that," and what I mean is like if I vote for someone who's anti-SSM, that does /not/ mean I'm against SSM, it just means that 'something else' was more important that time around. In my personal 'what matters most' this year it happens to be fundamental core beliefs about innocence and guilt, that the 'punishment' has to fit the crime, and that the entire concept of knowing the truth and establishing guilt /before/ dishing out punishment to someone has been abandoned and exchanged with a hashtag movement. I intend to vote like the 'long term' actually matters, rather than the 'short term' of singular key issues that I care about. For me, that involves sending a message in the only language politicians speak - I'll be voting against Walker because he "believed Ford" from go.

 

[candycorn]

You label everyone. Chill. We are all people.

We may all be homosapien sapiens (H's-S) but not all of us have humanity in our DNA. Of Course there are different breeds of H's-S, some have no, some and more neanderthal DNA than others, and yet the differences in DNA do not prevent procreation.

That said, the Trumpanzee is a different breed. They look the same, and can breed with all other H's-S, but that ends any comparison with other members of the toxonomy of H's-S. Something weird came their way which created this new and odd breed.

Yeah, come into this thread and dehumanize folks over their political beliefs.

Fuck off hack.

I scored Informative and telling. Maybe in your wisdom oh wise and wonderful Curious Oz you can give example of rabid trump supporters,

(me hopes you take no offense with my use of the word rabid, they do seem to foam at the mouth, metaphorically)

not showing to hold a callous disregard for others?

I await your judgement with mild interests.

Yes, well my callous disregard for you in particular was well earned. Finding someone completely without merit to discuss dog shit with, much less anything of importance, and thus choosing to treat them with deserved contempt, does not make one "foaming at the mouth."

(Or to put it in simple words, I do not like you, at all. We do hope that you take no offence, of course; because faking politeness after the rudeness is done makes everything okay, amiright?)

Also, shouldn't you stay away from direct communication's with me so you don't get fingered by the FBI for talking to "Russian agents"? Admittedly you were not as nearly parano... aah apologies, let us go with, "emphatic" as charwin was, but your accusation was certainly as credible as Mrs. Fords, which, as we all now know, means the government should believe it is true and take action upon such truths. Perhaps you should go bleach your hard drive before I'm thrown into Guantanamo for understanding hacking and bothering to explain it to the forum...

I have two questions, just for you:

1. When did you stop seeing your therapist;
2. When did you stop taking your meds?

That she calls herself a “centrist” is about the most humorous thing I’ve read here lately.

 

[JoeB131]

We already have term limits – they’re called elections.

The people have the right to elect whomever they want, as many times as they want, for as long as they want.

The 22nd Amendment is an example of the folly of term limits, a true manifestation of unintended consequences, illustrating that it's unwise to codify partisanism in the Constitution.

You see, I disagree. I think the 22nd Amendment was put in for a good reason, too keep any one person from holding the power for too long.

I think when you have these Octogenarian Senators and Congressmen who stay in Congress forever, that's when it gets crazy.

The same problem with SCOTUS. A lifetime appointment lasting 40 years is kind of crazy, but that's where we are at now.

 

[imawhosure]

For those of you who may have missed my prior posts, I have been an independent my entire life, (voting nearly 30 years now.) If one looks at my sig they'll note where I lay on various political metrics. In general I refer to myself as a capitalist classical liberal; I'm bisexual, pro-choice, national capitalistic.

If you are in the "political situation" where you've kind of always had to essentially make concessions about what you believe in when you vote this message probably applies to you.

We need to talk about what just happened with the Kavanaugh thing; the /principle/ of it. The D's could have started privately investigating this Ford case in July - they could have saved both Ford and Kavanaugh from the vitriol of making this case public and gotten to the /truth/ without all the hyperbolic bullshit. They /intentionally/ chose to destroy the lives and families of two people /simply/ to retain control of the SCOTUS at best, at worst they did it simply to "resist" the president.

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people and that there was no vote interference or anything that makes his election invalid, even at best - arguing that there were Russian ad campaigns - folks make their choice without anyone forcing them into it. Even if we want to entertain that "Russian's mislead the people with false claims and lies" that is certainly nothing new in politics, and effectually no different than the misleading and lies told by our own politicians of their opponents. The people voted of their own volition and Trump won.

Back to the Kavanaugh thing. So I didn't particularly care if he made it onto the SCOTUS honestly. I'm not a "fan" of him, he's got some rulings in the past I do not like; for example, the Patriot Act, the NSA recording and collecting all those phone calls - I was never entirely satisfied with the argument that "national security" is a good enough reason to invade the privacy of innocent American's without reason and necessity, even if I do recognize that it was/did indeed catch/stop terrorists. It was kind of one of those border-line issues for me where I wasn't quite feeling that the ends justified the means.

That's kind of what I want to talk about with you though, that "the ends justifying the means" thing...

What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the fucking leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

We have witnessed these "leaders" /allowing/ physical violence against their political rivals - not the politicians who one could argue put themselves in the proverbial ring and open themselves up to nutcases, but THE FUCKING CITIZENS who's only "crime" is going to a political rally.

We have witnessed these "leaders" ACTIVELY CALLING for those attacks on INNOCENT CITIZENS who's only "crime" is taking a job with political opposition.

And yesterday, we learned that we have witnessed these "leaders" abandon the core values of this nation; that a man, who's only "crime" is being nominated to the SCOTUS by the president, and/or a woman, who's only "crime' was thinking/believing she was sexually assaulted, should /both/ be utterly destroyed simply to buy these "leaders" time...


This is no longer "politics as usual" and this cannot stand. (I have a husband, four sons, and likely grandsons some day that I'm thinking about here.)

I know our kind sometimes blows off mid-terms as "less important," but we really need to vote this time and as always, we must look at the whole picture when we do so.

And when you do vote, I ask that you ask yourself; what means justify what ends...

You're not any sort of independent. You are a tRumpkin.

Well I am an Independent, and I agree with her. Yes, she mentioned things with a rightward slant, but in general she has a great point. Both of these parties are guilty of heartlessly using whatever ammunition they can find to wrest power from the other side.
The thing I don't find in her OP is what our options are. Go vote? For whom?
The ONLY way to stop these parties from continuing on as they are is for every voter in this country to say NO MORE and refuse to vote at all. There are too many dyed in the wool Dems and Repubs in this country for that to ever happen. I'd like to see the whole party system change, but that won't happen without the agreement of the parties themselves, and that ain't gonna happen.
So what does OP suggest we do? I really want to know.

I appreciate your words.

To address your questions, I don't like telling people how to vote or even who to vote for. At most I attempt to convince folks to vote for or against someone in particular that rankled me somehow, but for the most part I just try to help cut through bullshit and lies that are constantly told about the various politicians, or parties (rulings, myths, etc as well.) As for options, mostly actually research whom you're voting for. To the specific issue I complained about with due process, I'd advise checking what they said about Fords story - if they believed it without question then I'd argue they're worthless and just looking to buy your vote, rather than actually doing their "job" (respecting justice in this case)

Not voting isn't the solution, then the radicals will really run the country.

The solution is for most of us to say no more to the vitriol and start respecting each others opinions, even if they're different than ours, and even if they /are/ really important to us.

I'm not so sure about "dyed in the wool" Rs or Ds anymore honestly. I've seen a crap ton of lifetime R/D's declare independence this past couple years for various reasons.

I do agree the party system is fucked and biased. Fair warning here, I'm guessing a bit because it's been a long time since I was helping the Alaska Veteran's Party with their website and I might get some factoids we were talking about wrong (I do very well with typed still images, but moving and "live" things are just "normal".) So like third parties need like 10 times the signatures to get on the ballot. I don't know how to change that bullshit. Third parties get campaign money if they get 4% of the vote (not sure if that was an Alaska thing or a national/every state thing though) But we could help them there maybe (I believe it was $5k but it might have been $10k toward the next years candidate's campaign) Mostly VPA (the national chapter as a whole) complained that they had a really hard time getting over the "wasting your vote" hump, it's really hard to combat that argument because on it's kind of true. I personally tell folks that they had every right to vote for whoever they wanted and fuck anyone who bitches at them about exercising that right. (I ended up defending a bunch of my peeps who wanted to vote third party after Sanders was out, /still/ defending them today because some assholes are trying to blame them for Trump's election - even though most of these kids are on the east coast where Clinton /didn't/ win, assholes don't give a fuck about facts and logic though. Go figure.)

I'm not sure what else to suggest, other than trying to respect folks online, in person, etc. I'm seriously on the fence if I can do that myself, I'm so idk it's just so unacceptable, its such a fundamental thing... I haven't decided what I'm going to do about it yet, so I can't really advise anyone else much more than that. I don't want to play the "REVENGE" game, but I do strongly feel that they need to be "punished" simply to send a message they can't miss and clear out the corrupted ones. I just don't know yet, I'm still feeling ill about it all (although it could just be me getting a flu or something, I actually did throw up once earlier today - Syn makes it hard to distinguish.)

Not voting isn't the solution, then the radicals will really run the country.

The solution is for most of us to say no more to the vitriol and start respecting each others opinions, even if they're different than ours, and even if they /are/ really important to us.
If not voting isn't the solution, but there is only the obvious DemRepub choices, voting simply perpetuates the problem. Right now, I don't want to give a single Dem or Repub a vote, and that is a problem. I even like Senator Collins, so I'm glad she's not up this year, because I'm not in a rewarding mood, AT ALL.
But you have a good point, if we don't vote, the extremists win. Do you see how it feels as if my hand is being forced and my choices empty?

Dear, I recognize your pain on the issue, but you are talking to someone who for 30 years has never once in her entire voting life, had a candidate whom reflected her views. Trust me, you get used to it, you learn to prioritize, you learn to actually think about what matters 'most' to you in every single election. And perhaps that is the most irritating thing about it when you are forced to change 'what matters most' to you, it often feels like you're selling out something or someone. So you obsess over multiple candidates trying to find something on them that will help you make that decision, but eventually you come to realize that you should have been doing that all along. You come to realize that your entire life of being an "activist" and trying to "move forward" on a key belief (was SSM for me) had often led you to mindlessly vote for a candidate based on that singular key issue, sometimes in spite of that candidates other policies.

The worst part of that, the most annoying part of all that, is when you check that "single key issue" candidate and find out that they did jack fuck all to make your 'what matters most' this time happen. Turns out catch phrases are bullshit and there's not a hell of a lot of reward when you vote based on slogans. It is /very/ disheartening, I quit politics and stopped voting a few years myself. Even though my life was so much less "doom and gloom" and I had a lot more free time, I couldn't stay away (and that's how I ended up on this board some years ago heh) Sometimes I wonder if I have an addiction, but I figure it's not such a bad addiction to have because it matters, not just to the 400K in Alaska, not just to the 320M in the US, but to the entire world. My "activist" side is pleased enough with "saving the world" and that makes it a lot easier to let go of the 'not most important' issues that one has to let go of. You do get used to not having a party.

OL, I'm not going to tell you, or anyone else, who to vote for, because 'what matters most' is likely different for everyone, if "wreck Trump" is really more important to you, then do what you gotta do for what you truly believe in. If you decide you want to sit out because you're so disgusted/fed up/whatever I will not blame you one bit. If you decide to vote D, because that's 'what matters most' to you, that is fine. If you decide to vote R, that's fine. If you vote third party because they touch your 'what matters most' to you, that's cool too. My "request" is that you look at the candidate your going to vote for and decide if they represent an America that you'd want yourself and your family to live in - decide if the "end" of that/those issues, justify the "means" of what you'll be 'giving up' by voting for said candidate.

As an I, you learn that there is no such thing as "always that," and what I mean is like if I vote for someone who's anti-SSM, that does /not/ mean I'm against SSM, it just means that 'something else' was more important that time around. In my personal 'what matters most' this year it happens to be fundamental core beliefs about innocence and guilt, that the 'punishment' has to fit the crime, and that the entire concept of knowing the truth and establishing guilt /before/ dishing out punishment to someone has been abandoned and exchanged with a hashtag movement. I intend to vote like the 'long term' actually matters, rather than the 'short term' of singular key issues that I care about. For me, that involves sending a message in the only language politicians speak - I'll be voting against Walker because he "believed Ford" from go.

May I interject? And thank you for a thoughtful thread.

I also am a centrist, IF the definition of such is what the Democrats used to be in the late 60s and early 70s. Fiscally conservative, socially liberal. Unfortunately, todays Democrats do not resemble those that came before them, they are no longer Democrats except in name.

The people running that party of yore, had a coalition put together that was designed to help everyone at the core. No longer! Today, the Democrats are basically run by Socialists and radical groups,trying to NOT convince the former core that they are here to help them, but rather that the other side is there to purposely hurt them. They do not want to follow the document that made this country the envy of the world, they want to rewrite it; which is why they can NOT have an originalist majority seated on the Supreme Court. This is not new, as was seen by the resistance to Bork, Thomas, and now Kavanaugh.

What the far Left does not realize is...…………….and notice, I did NOT call them Democrat because they are Democrats in name only...…..As Yamamoto once stated--------->They, through this process, have awakened a sleeping giant! And, it has been proven by the disgust of the overwhelming majority of the population, including REAL Democrats! By watching this process unfold, Americans have been witness to how easily the people of the left in power will just throw out our constitutional rights, so as they can grasp power. Americans look at this process and wonder------->If this can be done to someone right before our very eyes, imagine what they can do to the rest of us behind closed doors! They will NOT like what they have unleashed upon themselves, and you can take that check to the bank and cash it now.

For quite a long time now, both party's have been insisting the other was attempting to tear down our constitution, our way of life, our rights; civil and otherwise, along with our American customs and norms. Now, in front of a whole country paying attention, the Far Left has shown who has been telling the truth on this issue, and who was being deceitful. You would THINK that they would have backed away after seeing in media how their argument came off, but they are so confident, they doubled down; and as everyone can plainly see that even on this site that their followers concur with the decision they made. They are so out of touch, they do not for an instant understand how PISSED Americans are with how they handled this situation, or how BOTH witnesses were treated, along with no new factual evidence to even bring this to the fore front.

In closing, let me state that------------> Donald Trump's personality leaves something to be desired. I have NEVER seen a President so arrogant in my lifetime. The phrases and descriptors he uses to paint his opposition make me cringe and make me want to stuff a sock in his mouth to shut him up for his own good.

And then, and then, and then I remember the descriptors the other side uses to paint us---------> Zenaphobes, homophobes, deplorables, racists, women haters, anti this, anti that, creitans, and a host of others. They continually attempt to divide us all, and use it as a basis for their political aspirations; slice-dice any way they can, then proclaim they are there to PROTECT those that they themselves, have sliced off from American society.

Yeah, Trump is arrogant, but the far Left has proven his point for him! And they did it, while most of America was watching and paying attention! Are his words crass? Yep! But was he lying using his descriptors? No! And if Kavenaugh is confirmed, the Left is going to reap what they have sown come the midterms. So confident am I of this outcome, I have put the boat up for sale that I purchased a few months ago to survive the blue tsunami that was predicted. If I was a far Leftist, I would consider purchasing it from me so as you have something to survive in when you are rolled in November-)

 

[sparky]

We already have term limits – they’re called elections.

We've the illusion of 'choice' , not actual ones Clay

But it would take a Constitutional amendment.

The 28th would be a grand start

That said, the Trumpanzee is a different breed.

No different from Obamaroids, jmho

Get the money out of elections is the first order of business

Bingo!

~S~

 

[eagle1462010]

The 28th would be a grand start

Equal application of the law shouldn't need an Amendment. It should already be done if we had true ethical people in political positions.

If we create an Amendment to say equal application under the law..........would it change whether or not the DOJ would prosecute politicians for breaking the laws already on the books.

No Gov't or Amendment can work without ethical people in these positions...............

 

[sparky]

true Eagle

this is why i'm always stating we live in a dualopoly , which is a polite word for classist society. ~S~

 

[emilynghiem]

For those of you who may have missed my prior posts, I have been an independent my entire life, (voting nearly 30 years now.) If one looks at my sig they'll note where I lay on various political metrics. In general I refer to myself as a capitalist classical liberal; I'm bisexual, pro-choice, national capitalistic.

If you are in the "political situation" where you've kind of always had to essentially make concessions about what you believe in when you vote this message probably applies to you. [EDIT - note, if you're a partisan hack, this post probably doesn't apply to you heh]

We need to talk about what just happened with the Kavanaugh thing; the /principle/ of it. The D's could have started privately investigating this Ford case in July - they could have saved both Ford and Kavanaugh from the vitriol of making this case public and gotten to the /truth/ without all the hyperbolic bullshit. They /intentionally/ chose to destroy the lives and families of two people /simply/ to retain control of the SCOTUS at best, at worst they did it simply to "resist" the president.

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people and that there was no vote interference or anything that makes his election invalid, even at best - arguing that there were Russian ad campaigns - folks make their choice without anyone forcing them into it. Even if we want to entertain that "Russian's mislead the people with false claims and lies" that is certainly nothing new in politics, and effectually no different than the misleading and lies told by our own politicians of their opponents. The people voted of their own volition and Trump won.

Back to the Kavanaugh thing. So I didn't particularly care if he made it onto the SCOTUS honestly. I'm not a "fan" of him, he's got some rulings in the past I do not like; for example, the Patriot Act, the NSA recording and collecting all those phone calls - I was never entirely satisfied with the argument that "national security" is a good enough reason to invade the privacy of innocent American's without reason and necessity, even if I do recognize that it was/did indeed catch/stop terrorists. It was kind of one of those border-line issues for me where I wasn't quite feeling that the ends justified the means.

That's kind of what I want to talk about with you though, that "the ends justifying the means" thing...

What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the fucking leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

We have witnessed these "leaders" /allowing/ physical violence against their political rivals - not the politicians who one could argue put themselves in the proverbial ring and open themselves up to nutcases, but THE FUCKING CITIZENS who's only "crime" is going to a political rally.

We have witnessed these "leaders" ACTIVELY CALLING for those attacks on INNOCENT CITIZENS who's only "crime" is taking a job with political opposition.

And yesterday, we learned that we have witnessed these "leaders" abandon the core values of this nation; that a man, who's only "crime" is being nominated to the SCOTUS by the president, and/or a woman, who's only "crime' was thinking/believing she was sexually assaulted, should /both/ be utterly destroyed simply to buy these "leaders" time...


This is no longer "politics as usual" and this cannot stand. (I have a husband, four sons, and likely grandsons some day that I'm thinking about here.)

I know our kind sometimes blows off mid-terms as "less important," but we really need to vote this time and as always, we must look at the whole picture when we do so.

And when you do vote, I ask that you ask yourself; what means justify what ends...

Dear EverCurious Thank you for summarizing what could have taken a much longer post to capture all you covered.

The solution is that people who do respect process and principle use that to check and correct abuses.

The reason this isn't getting done is if nobody asks. But look at how Grassley and Graham handled this, and now Flake. They were respectful and inclusive of Ford's right to petition to request fuller investigation to redress grievances. They respected the law and made very strong statements while remaining respectful of her.

We need more examples like this from more leaders. Lessons in due process. Examples how to receive each other's complaints and statements without bullying to shut down or shut up someone from speaking their perspective and defending their beliefs in truth.

Ford Kavanaugh and the prosecuting interviewer all set a much higher standard and example instead of the hateful bullying rhetoric that's become the media culture and bait of the day.

Let's look to and follow better examples of the Democratic process we want to see in our society and govt.

You speak candidly and transparently about your concerns and grievances with politics.

That's exactly what is needed, thank you!

The answer I'd give to ppl asking advice about voting is to promote and support candidates you believe will respond best to corrections and solutions with respect to the Constitution . It's not enough to judge on what they've supported or said in the past because most aren't offered the best Constitutional choice or ideas to solve problems, but most get painted into a corner and forced to vote Yes or no on a conpromised bill or option. So it's hard to know what they would have said had a better option or solution been offered instead of the party line crap that sets people up to fail.

But either imagine asking them to support something better, and if you can't see them agreeing to be the bigger person then vote for the person you feel would better agree to represent and include what you want as a solution .

If you don't know, then ask.

Write to the candidate or leader you would like to support and find out. Go meet with party chair or precinct members in your district. Whichever leader or group is open to working toward what you see as a solution, support that group or the people supporting that leader.

What I find is grassroots leaders all around me working on different parts of multiple solutions. So I support them all.

Life is like an orchestra and we all have different parts to play to make the symphony work. So find where your heart belongs and who sings the same song or same key. We align with our section and find where we fit in to contribute to the ensemble, and the whole symphony sings.

If people are clashing we need to get on the same page. By section or group but not competing to drown out or kick out another section off the stage. All voices are needed that make the population of America so beautiful and majestic in our full wealth of diversity.

Let's not allow fear to destroy that beauty love and pride in our country our states our brothers and sisters. We have much more to be proud of, and what we are ashamed of we grieve together.

Reach out and ask which leaders can help us achieve which solutions. Start there and help connect community groups with leaders who listen and include us.

Invest time energy efforts and resources in creating those solutions and relations and jobs so the right ppl and groups get paid to implement and replicate the right model programs.

Vote not just with your ballots and money but your words and actions. The people will end up leading our govt, as it should be, not the other way around.

As always, your advise is sage.

Compromise has been getting more and more difficult to find these past decades. I often feel like it's "never enough" for too many, like... we give amnesty and it morphs into open borders somehow... We give a helping hand up and it morphs into we've now "adopted" 30-60 million financial children... We give "fine be gay whatever" and it morphs into hate speech should be illegal... Personally Emily, I'll level with you, I'm officially tired of letting things go, I'm tired of giving an inch and being taken for a mile. It's like when your kids are screaming in the store, it's bad enough they're screaming in the store like assholes to begin with, but when they start throwing stuff off the shelves that you're ultimately going to have to pay for, it's time for the belt...

Still, I'll try to keep my guns in the safe a bit longer heh

Dear EverCurious
1. The things escalating out of hand is due to NOT doing the work "outside of govt"
that is CAUSING people to run TO govt crying for help to fix the abuses and messes.
So that's why it's a bigger and bigger mess.
Yes, we still need to GIVE people the FREEDOM to clean up their rooms and houses.
We can't abuse Govt to "order" them to do it by mandates and dictates etc.
And because we don't all agree how to fix things, YES it takes forever
and more mess piles up. While we fight over who's in charge of which room
in which house or who wants to dictate for the whole neighborhood and why
that isn't going to work, etc. we don't ever focus on the actual clean up plans!

2. If it's any comfort, think of the people sick of religious abuse, too.
After hearing and saying it over and over, yes the corrections will come.
Justice will come to those who are patient and forgive and endure trials, tribulations and persecution.
And still we see abusive garbage.
But that doesn't mean we thrown out all religion, all Christianity for the garbage going
on with cult and religious abuse. We keep enforcing what does work, what IS being done right.
And so the same is happening with govt.

The parties and people WITH good working ideas
deserve that chance to keep growing programs and proving what works.
Some of these are nonprofits. Some are individuals, some plans
haven't been implemented yet. But we can't thrown out the process
and plans just because of bad ones that fail.

3. Also, the fact you are getting tired. Others are saying enough, we need to speak out
and take action. The time HAS come to start rebuilding, not waiting for others to.

So I think that is why you are posting this and we are connecting on what to do now.
I've found so many others who have been preaching solutions for 20, 30, even 40 years.
So the ones with a track record get to serve as working examples.
We can focus our energy on promoting and publicizing THOSE solutions.
And not argue over problems and who's to blame.

Before this point in time, people weren't ready for solutions.
Now they can't stand to hear anything but what is going to work!

So we are all fed up, and you sense this.
I think we are finally ready now, where we weren't close in the past.

Currently, women on left and right are rethinking the Clinton charges
and how we handled abuses in the past vs the politics everyone is calling out now.
So maybe we are ready to put together solutions across party lines,
and quit this deadlock obstruction business.

Thanks again, I believe you are sensing a change in the times.
This is good, for the exhausting wasteful ways of the past to come to an end,
to give up on doing things the hard way,
and opening the door for better approaches.

All our younger leaders and party members are asking for change.
It may not be the change we envisioned, but will likely be greater than we imagined.
We are letting go, and opening the door for the next stage.

Look forward to seeing the new partnerships and innovations
that come from other people "giving up on the old" and being open to the new!

Take care, let go and look forward to better approaches ahead.
It certainly can't get any worse than the garbage of the past.
Even the circus over Ford and Kavanaugh was better than the
civil wars over Bush and Clinton. There was civility despite the
harsh disagreements, and that gave me hope we might be ready to get real.

Trump opened the door for everyone to come out and tweet whatever
you wanted to say or accuse other people of, or make whatever political statement.
So now we have this new venue for expressing and redressing grievances.
Let's see if we can share solutions as loudly as we bark about problems!

Thanks EverCurious I hope you feel
better and see that things are on their way up and out!
Yours truly, Emily

 

[deanrd]

Fellow Centrists, Classical Liberals, Independents, etc.

You mean other white people.

The problem is the GOP has already swept up all the whites except the ones the GOP hates.

Like gays, oh the GOP hates gays.

And liberals, atheists, white Hispanics and the educated like college professors and teachers.

Oh, and women.

Believe it or not, most women don't like to be targets of sexual assault and have their bodies legislated.

The GOP pretty much has everyone they are going to get.

 

[emilynghiem]

The 28th would be a grand start

Equal application of the law shouldn't need an Amendment. It should already be done if we had true ethical people in political positions.

If we create an Amendment to say equal application under the law..........would it change whether or not the DOJ would prosecute politicians for breaking the laws already on the books.

No Gov't or Amendment can work without ethical people in these positions...............

Dear eagle1462010
We already have the Fourteenth Amendment about equal protection of the laws.

A. What we are missing is "political beliefs" are not being checked the same as religious beliefs,
so this isn't equal. Secular beliefs are being pushed through govt, while barring religious beliefs,
so this is causing the very problems the First Amendment was trying to avoid!

B. Also corporations are bypassing checks and balances, so rules in writing need to be
policed on the STATE level where corporations get licensed to operate (and add
to the charters some requirement to respect similar limits as applied to govt as a collective entity)

This would still give STATES the authority to revoke charters for corporations (or political
and religious organizations) that violate due process and other individual protections.

C. as for removing issues that cause conflicts under Federal or State, Criminal or Civil laws:
I suggest setting up local "health and safety ordinances" either per district, city, or state
where things like health care, abortion, drugs, etc. can be decided democratically without
interfering with others of different beliefs, so everyone can fund the programs on terms they agree to pay for.

I've been developing ways to accommodate political beliefs, so this covers a multitude of issues
under minimal places of reform.

For example,
1. recognizing the First and Fourteenth Amendments, and Civil Rights laws
on "religion" and "creed" apply to political beliefs as religions or creeds.

We need an agreement written out, as there are already too many conflicts over
the BELIEFs about rights to guns, marriage, abortion, health care, life, etc.

People are already arguing if this is inherent in the Constitutional laws or not,
so we do need to spell out "in general" that political BELIEFS of all these types
are already under Free Exercise of religion and no discrimination by CREED.

So clarifying political beliefs would cover all these areas that people fight over
because we don't agree how much govt should regulate these or not.

We wouldn't need to argue if science can prove this or that about
homosexual or transgender identity because all that can be classified
under FAITH based beliefs, and covered already by religion or creed.
We might need a truce agreement to recognize beliefs on both sides
this way, and to keep those policy choices private, out of govt, or by consensus only
or local agreement if people are able to handle making a group policy on such issues.

NOTE: also, someone suggested that Congress have a vote before
legislation is passed, whether it requires a Constitutional Amendment or not.
so this would address issues of beliefs or procedural limits or process
independent of the content of the bill instead of running these together
and blocking both.

2. Setting up representation by party per Electoral college district.
So people have access to a grievance and mediation process locally
instead of stockpiling everything on a state level and backlogging the federal courts.

3. Separating tax forms where contributors can check boxes for their taxes
to go toward state programs or party platforms.

^ Here is where you don't need to spell out "every single application"

As long as parties group all their issues of faith based and political beliefs
under their platform, the members can just agree to invest taxes there to cover their agenda!
No need to haggle over terms, their whole party takes responsibility for that.
So if both parties don't agree on health care, separate it by state or party.
And let the populations just vote where to enroll for health care plans,
under party, state or national. And nobody dictates terms for anyone else.

eagle1462010 this may seem like a lot to write and work out,
but the broad range of issues that would be covered is worth it.