Fellow Centrists, Classical Liberals, Independents, etc. - We need to talk.

[EverCurious]

What is your preoccupation with queers, Gramps??

Some folks are just that way. Normally I'd suspect religious beliefs, but I don't recall Gramps being religious, at least not exceptionally so anyway, I think he just hates homosexuality ~shrug~

 

[Erinwltr]

What is your preoccupation with queers, Gramps??

Some folks are just that way. Normally I'd suspect religious beliefs, but I don't recall Gramps being religious, at least not exceptionally so anyway, I think he just hates homosexuality ~shrug~

That's like hating your right hand because you put a left sock on.

 

[Erinwltr]

For those of you who may have missed my prior posts, I have been an independent my entire life, (voting nearly 30 years now.) If one looks at my sig they'll note where I lay on various political metrics. In general I refer to myself as a capitalist classical liberal; I'm bisexual, pro-choice, national capitalistic.

If you are in the "political situation" where you've kind of always had to essentially make concessions about what you believe in when you vote this message probably applies to you. [EDIT - note, if you're a partisan hack, this post probably doesn't apply to you heh]

We need to talk about what just happened with the Kavanaugh thing; the /principle/ of it. The D's could have started privately investigating this Ford case in July - they could have saved both Ford and Kavanaugh from the vitriol of making this case public and gotten to the /truth/ without all the hyperbolic bullshit. They /intentionally/ chose to destroy the lives and families of two people /simply/ to retain control of the SCOTUS at best, at worst they did it simply to "resist" the president.

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people and that there was no vote interference or anything that makes his election invalid, even at best - arguing that there were Russian ad campaigns - folks make their choice without anyone forcing them into it. Even if we want to entertain that "Russian's mislead the people with false claims and lies" that is certainly nothing new in politics, and effectually no different than the misleading and lies told by our own politicians of their opponents. The people voted of their own volition and Trump won.

Back to the Kavanaugh thing. So I didn't particularly care if he made it onto the SCOTUS honestly. I'm not a "fan" of him, he's got some rulings in the past I do not like; for example, the Patriot Act, the NSA recording and collecting all those phone calls - I was never entirely satisfied with the argument that "national security" is a good enough reason to invade the privacy of innocent American's without reason and necessity, even if I do recognize that it was/did indeed catch/stop terrorists. It was kind of one of those border-line issues for me where I wasn't quite feeling that the ends justified the means.

That's kind of what I want to talk about with you though, that "the ends justifying the means" thing...

What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the fucking leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

We have witnessed these "leaders" /allowing/ physical violence against their political rivals - not the politicians who one could argue put themselves in the proverbial ring and open themselves up to nutcases, but THE FUCKING CITIZENS who's only "crime" is going to a political rally.

We have witnessed these "leaders" ACTIVELY CALLING for those attacks on INNOCENT CITIZENS who's only "crime" is taking a job with political opposition.

And yesterday, we learned that we have witnessed these "leaders" abandon the core values of this nation; that a man, who's only "crime" is being nominated to the SCOTUS by the president, and/or a woman, who's only "crime' was thinking/believing she was sexually assaulted, should /both/ be utterly destroyed simply to buy these "leaders" time...


This is no longer "politics as usual" and this cannot stand. (I have a husband, four sons, and likely grandsons some day that I'm thinking about here.)

I know our kind sometimes blows off mid-terms as "less important," but we really need to vote this time and as always, we must look at the whole picture when we do so.

And when you do vote, I ask that you ask yourself; what means justify what ends...

Obama's amazing abuse of power and Hillary's epic corruption are the types of things that will destroy our country.

"Obama's amazing abuse of power and Hillary's epic corruption are the types of things that will destroy our country." O & H didn't. The country is still here despite all your whining and pity parties with wadded soiled pantiez and snot rags. Guess who is POTUS now?

 

[EverCurious]

Alright, so I've been pondering Emily's wisdom and I'd like to retract Grampa Murked U

I apologize, I should have been more open to discussing your point. I didn't feel it was relevant to the point of my thread [that fundimental principles were being shoved down the garbage disposal by our leaders] at the time. In retrospect, that in itself is similar to your complaint on the political relevance of my sexual identity and I think your vitriol is actually a good example of the problem I'm actually talking about.

I believe you are 'half-right' about identity politics destroying the social fabric of the nation. However, it's not "identity politics" themselves that are the problem, it's the people's vitriol and activism that's causing the destruction of some of the "fundamental principles" I started the thread to... IDK "protect" I suppose.

Firstly, I would like to say that I don't have a "problem" with your, or anyone's, choice to dislike homosexuality, at least not in the sense that you shouldn't be "allowed" to feel that way.

As I said, I'm a classical liberal, that means that I think folks are free to believe in and think what they want about any group; activists, racists, homophones, Islamophobia, white nationalists, socialists, capitalists, etc. /all/ have the right to their personal beliefs, and, in fact, to speak about them and attempt to "influence" others to their "side."

That is what a "free nation" /actually/ is, no one has the right to dictate to others how they should, or should not, believe. There is zero "right" to "not be offended" to "not be challenged" to "not be uncomfortable" as a truly free people.

I think that perhaps is the "disconnect" between both modern activists, the media, and our political leaders these days.

 

[Mac1958]

I am literally sick to my stomach.

Yeah. That's pretty much where I was the day they testified. I made the mistake of coming here and reading the filth that people were saying, and it got a little worse. There are those who pretend that this is no big deal, that there has always been nastiness like this. I don't believe that for a moment, and I think that's just an excuse to continue behaving this way.

This is a cultural issue. It's a reflection of who we are and what we're becoming. I have no idea how this gets fixed.

I live in a purple state and my impulse is to vote Democratic. I won't be doing that for a while in Presidential elections and for Representatives and Senators. It will have to be third party now. Local and gubernatorial elections are a different matter, at least for now.

This is not good. And the jackals who are creating this environment are loving it, thriving in it.
.

 

[EverCurious]

I am literally sick to my stomach.

Yeah. That's pretty much where I was the day they testified. I made the mistake of coming here and reading the filth that people were saying, and it got a little worse. There are those who pretend that this is no big deal, that there has always been nastiness like this. I don't believe that for a moment, and I think that's just an excuse to continue behaving this way.

This is a cultural issue. It's a reflection of who we are and what we're becoming. I have no idea how this gets fixed.

I live in a purple state and my impulse is to vote Democratic. I won't be doing that for a while in Presidential elections and for Representatives and Senators. It will have to be third party now. Local and gubernatorial elections are a different matter.

This is not good. And the jackals who are creating this environment are loving it, thriving in it.
.

I know

I am seriously torn between Emily's wisdom for staying calm and going "nuclear option" with the left on this. I mean, I sure as hell won't be voting D, but as far as "letting it go" or "fighting it like a banshee" It's so wrong I'm beside myself heh

 

[AZGAL]

He has a true hatred of the left, and actually used a conspiracy theory that is unproven, that the Clintons are behind this whole thing.

When sensing danger it may be important to let the world know that it is possible enemy forces are seeking you in the moment. Just look at history. Kavanaugh took on the Clintons and the legal team for Dr. Ford is friendly with the Clintons. This is no conspiracy theory that came out of nowhere.

 

[eagle1462010]

Well here is the thing. First we have no idea who actually released Ford's identity.

Secondly, if we do dodge a bullet on Kavanaugh, the hearing exposed that he is not as non-partisan as a judge is supposed to be. He has a true hatred of the left, and actually used a conspiracy theory that is unproven, that the Clintons are behind this whole thing. He has no idea if that is true or not, and he used it in his hearing. We don't need conspiracy theory nutjobs serving on the Supreme Court.

Lastly, as a judge he should have known better than to say that statements made by Mark Judge and the other person Ford said was at the party, backed up his statement that he was never there. In fact that isn't true. They said they don't remember the party, that isn't the same as saying it didn't happen and that the party didn't happen. Those are two totally different things. A judge that is going to serve on the highest court in the land should know better, and if he does know better, but instead made that statement, then he was being dishonest.

'I Don't Remember'
Is ALWAYS The Right Thing To Say

ALWAYS....

I don't recall........is the famous quote for I'm lying my ass off from politicians..........catch all phrase..........

Used so you can't get nailed later for Lying under oath.

 

[eagle1462010]

I am literally sick to my stomach.

Yeah. That's pretty much where I was the day they testified. I made the mistake of coming here and reading the filth that people were saying, and it got a little worse. There are those who pretend that this is no big deal, that there has always been nastiness like this. I don't believe that for a moment, and I think that's just an excuse to continue behaving this way.

This is a cultural issue. It's a reflection of who we are and what we're becoming. I have no idea how this gets fixed.

I live in a purple state and my impulse is to vote Democratic. I won't be doing that for a while in Presidential elections and for Representatives and Senators. It will have to be third party now. Local and gubernatorial elections are a different matter, at least for now.

This is not good. And the jackals who are creating this environment are loving it, thriving in it.
.

That was good for a laugh..............you'll be voting for the Dems........LOL

Your just another FAKE.....................your leanings are left..........and you dang well know it.

Wonder how much the leaker got paid for the leak from Feinstein's staff..............Oh yeah it was a accident it got leaked right before the vote...........00

And it's lapses of memory that Ford can't even say at which house this happened.........how she got there and how she got home..................

And the witnesses so far that she stated have denied it. And the gofundme account keeps growing...700k and growing as of yesterday.......

This is a game of WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE.............

Enjoy the show.

 

[Mac1958]

I am literally sick to my stomach.

Yeah. That's pretty much where I was the day they testified. I made the mistake of coming here and reading the filth that people were saying, and it got a little worse. There are those who pretend that this is no big deal, that there has always been nastiness like this. I don't believe that for a moment, and I think that's just an excuse to continue behaving this way.

This is a cultural issue. It's a reflection of who we are and what we're becoming. I have no idea how this gets fixed.

I live in a purple state and my impulse is to vote Democratic. I won't be doing that for a while in Presidential elections and for Representatives and Senators. It will have to be third party now. Local and gubernatorial elections are a different matter, at least for now.

This is not good. And the jackals who are creating this environment are loving it, thriving in it.
.

That was good for a laugh..............you'll be voting for the Dems........LOL

Your just another FAKE.....................your leanings are left..........and you dang well know it.

Wonder how much the leaker got paid for the leak from Feinstein's staff..............Oh yeah it was a accident it got leaked right before the vote...........00

And it's lapses of memory that Ford can't even say at which house this happened.........how she got there and how she got home..................

And the witnesses so far that she stated have denied it. And the gofundme account keeps growing...700k and growing as of yesterday.......

This is a game of WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE.............

Enjoy the show.

Well yes, I'm a left-leaning Independent, and I've listed my positions on the issues in the link at the end of the second line of my sig.

Did you think you were exposing some dark secret about me? Did you think you "had" me there?

Thanks for providing such a vivid illustration of my point, always appreciated. Just another winger.
.

 

[Darkwind]

Well here is the thing. First we have no idea who actually released Ford's identity.

Secondly, if we do dodge a bullet on Kavanaugh, the hearing exposed that he is not as non-partisan as a judge is supposed to be. He has a true hatred of the left, and actually used a conspiracy theory that is unproven, that the Clintons are behind this whole thing. He has no idea if that is true or not, and he used it in his hearing. We don't need conspiracy theory nutjobs serving on the Supreme Court.

Lastly, as a judge he should have known better than to say that statements made by Mark Judge and the other person Ford said was at the party, backed up his statement that he was never there. In fact that isn't true. They said they don't remember the party, that isn't the same as saying it didn't happen and that the party didn't happen. Those are two totally different things. A judge that is going to serve on the highest court in the land should know better, and if he does know better, but instead made that statement, then he was being dishonest.

This isn't exactly a debate post... Everyone is welcome to whatever opinion and whatever facts they find most compelling.

I am simply asking that folks decide where their principles lay - and to go vote for what they believe in.

And people should vote based on what is best for society as a whole, not what is their party tells them to. Republicans are saying that Democrats are being so hard on Kavanaugh simply because he is being appointed by Trump. That's not true at all. There was no accusations or anything like this AT ALL with Gorsuch. The real issue here is, it's much easier for the Republicans to blame this on partisanship, and use that as a backdoor from the situation and to pump their base, than to take the time to find out if the accusations are true or not. It's plain as day.

Stop trying to insert your context into what I've posted.

This is not about Kavanaugh so much as it is about the foundation principles that the D's just threw away, the "innocent" citizens they destroy, to buy themselves time to gain power/fame/time/whatever.

It very much is. Instead of using partisanship and tribalism as a reason to create MORE partisanship and tribalism, people should be doing like Flake and Coons to work together. But what has happened? Flake is being crucified and even having his life threatened for it. Kavanaugh is a perfect example of it. You want to say you are independent, but at the same time you are picking sides. If you are really independent you would pick places to support each side on specific issues, not just blame one side for the problems and not the other.

You do realize we see your partisanship and tribalism, right? They're only good people when they agree with your world view, they only help America by hurting Repubicans.

Please.

 

[eagle1462010]

I am literally sick to my stomach.

Yeah. That's pretty much where I was the day they testified. I made the mistake of coming here and reading the filth that people were saying, and it got a little worse. There are those who pretend that this is no big deal, that there has always been nastiness like this. I don't believe that for a moment, and I think that's just an excuse to continue behaving this way.

This is a cultural issue. It's a reflection of who we are and what we're becoming. I have no idea how this gets fixed.

I live in a purple state and my impulse is to vote Democratic. I won't be doing that for a while in Presidential elections and for Representatives and Senators. It will have to be third party now. Local and gubernatorial elections are a different matter, at least for now.

This is not good. And the jackals who are creating this environment are loving it, thriving in it.
.

That was good for a laugh..............you'll be voting for the Dems........LOL

Your just another FAKE.....................your leanings are left..........and you dang well know it.

Wonder how much the leaker got paid for the leak from Feinstein's staff..............Oh yeah it was a accident it got leaked right before the vote...........00

And it's lapses of memory that Ford can't even say at which house this happened.........how she got there and how she got home..................

And the witnesses so far that she stated have denied it. And the gofundme account keeps growing...700k and growing as of yesterday.......

This is a game of WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE.............

Enjoy the show.

Well yes, I'm a left-leaning Independent, and I've listed my positions on the issues in the link at the end of the second line of my sig.

Did you think you were exposing some dark secret about me? Did you think you "had" me there?

Thanks for providing such a vivid illustration of my point, always appreciated. Just another winger.
.

I think you are a Hypocrite.................just saying.

independent on the issues..........hardly..........

This whole Supreme pizza deal is garbage...........a well thought out scripted play by Slime Ball Dems.........who don't care who they destroy to gain power........

Leaked by accident at the last minute...........trying to protect Ford because she didn't want to be known.......at the same time lawyering up and getting a polygraph..........and now an instant millionaire.....

Ray Charles can see this a Hit Job by a bunch of lying sleezes from the left..........brought to you by the leading sleeze Feinstein.............

Yeah.......it was an accident that it LEAKED..............

I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire............there.........have fun with that...........Mr. So called Independent.

 

[eagle1462010]

This is what I see here in this circle jerk thread. LOL

 

[Mac1958]

I am literally sick to my stomach.

Yeah. That's pretty much where I was the day they testified. I made the mistake of coming here and reading the filth that people were saying, and it got a little worse. There are those who pretend that this is no big deal, that there has always been nastiness like this. I don't believe that for a moment, and I think that's just an excuse to continue behaving this way.

This is a cultural issue. It's a reflection of who we are and what we're becoming. I have no idea how this gets fixed.

I live in a purple state and my impulse is to vote Democratic. I won't be doing that for a while in Presidential elections and for Representatives and Senators. It will have to be third party now. Local and gubernatorial elections are a different matter, at least for now.

This is not good. And the jackals who are creating this environment are loving it, thriving in it.
.

That was good for a laugh..............you'll be voting for the Dems........LOL

Your just another FAKE.....................your leanings are left..........and you dang well know it.

Wonder how much the leaker got paid for the leak from Feinstein's staff..............Oh yeah it was a accident it got leaked right before the vote...........00

And it's lapses of memory that Ford can't even say at which house this happened.........how she got there and how she got home..................

And the witnesses so far that she stated have denied it. And the gofundme account keeps growing...700k and growing as of yesterday.......

This is a game of WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE.............

Enjoy the show.

Well yes, I'm a left-leaning Independent, and I've listed my positions on the issues in the link at the end of the second line of my sig.

Did you think you were exposing some dark secret about me? Did you think you "had" me there?

Thanks for providing such a vivid illustration of my point, always appreciated. Just another winger.
.

I think you are a Hypocrite.................just saying.

independent on the issues..........hardly..........

This whole Supreme pizza deal is garbage...........a well thought out scripted play by Slime Ball Dems.........who don't care who they destroy to gain power........

Leaked by accident at the last minute...........trying to protect Ford because she didn't want to be known.......at the same time lawyering up and getting a polygraph..........and now an instant millionaire.....

Ray Charles can see this a Hit Job by a bunch of lying sleezes from the left..........brought to you by the leading sleeze Feinstein.............

Yeah.......it was an accident that it LEAKED..............

I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire............there.........have fun with that...........Mr. So called Independent.

A powerful intellectual argument, thanks so much.
.

 

[EverCurious]

This is what I see here in this circle jerk thread. LOL

... you sound like a partisan hack dear. I did say that this wouldn't apply to that type so you were warned.

 

[eagle1462010]

Under the last administration...............Americans were attacked by their own gov.t

Evidence was destroyed............after being ordered to turn it into the courts.

The FBI was used as a weapon to try to influence and election......didn't work........and then they double down.

Paid Russian high ups for dirt then accuse the other side of doing it................get warrants to attack anyone associated with the other side..........open ended investigation as the crimes from the other side are dismissed.


Let me be clear my stance..............The Democraps can go take a flying leap off a cliff on how dirty they are now....take their Media BS with them..................they are scum to me................and we aren't NEGOTIATING WITH THESE ASSHATS NO MORE.....................

Sell your moderate BS elsewhere.............their tactics deserve return fire........I don't care who doesn't like it.

 

[eagle1462010]

I am literally sick to my stomach.

Yeah. That's pretty much where I was the day they testified. I made the mistake of coming here and reading the filth that people were saying, and it got a little worse. There are those who pretend that this is no big deal, that there has always been nastiness like this. I don't believe that for a moment, and I think that's just an excuse to continue behaving this way.

This is a cultural issue. It's a reflection of who we are and what we're becoming. I have no idea how this gets fixed.

I live in a purple state and my impulse is to vote Democratic. I won't be doing that for a while in Presidential elections and for Representatives and Senators. It will have to be third party now. Local and gubernatorial elections are a different matter, at least for now.

This is not good. And the jackals who are creating this environment are loving it, thriving in it.
.

That was good for a laugh..............you'll be voting for the Dems........LOL

Your just another FAKE.....................your leanings are left..........and you dang well know it.

Wonder how much the leaker got paid for the leak from Feinstein's staff..............Oh yeah it was a accident it got leaked right before the vote...........00

And it's lapses of memory that Ford can't even say at which house this happened.........how she got there and how she got home..................

And the witnesses so far that she stated have denied it. And the gofundme account keeps growing...700k and growing as of yesterday.......

This is a game of WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE.............

Enjoy the show.

Well yes, I'm a left-leaning Independent, and I've listed my positions on the issues in the link at the end of the second line of my sig.

Did you think you were exposing some dark secret about me? Did you think you "had" me there?

Thanks for providing such a vivid illustration of my point, always appreciated. Just another winger.
.

I think you are a Hypocrite.................just saying.

independent on the issues..........hardly..........

This whole Supreme pizza deal is garbage...........a well thought out scripted play by Slime Ball Dems.........who don't care who they destroy to gain power........

Leaked by accident at the last minute...........trying to protect Ford because she didn't want to be known.......at the same time lawyering up and getting a polygraph..........and now an instant millionaire.....

Ray Charles can see this a Hit Job by a bunch of lying sleezes from the left..........brought to you by the leading sleeze Feinstein.............

Yeah.......it was an accident that it LEAKED..............

I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire............there.........have fun with that...........Mr. So called Independent.

A powerful intellectual argument, thanks so much.
.

Whatever.....you know it's the truth.

 

[eagle1462010]

This is what I see here in this circle jerk thread. LOL

... you sound like a partisan hack dear. I did say that this wouldn't apply to that type so you were warned.

Whatever..........there are lines in the dang sand........they attacked Americans for their beliefs...............there is no middle ground here.......

Just as this filthy last minute attack as they held on to the information since July............their tactics are beyond any negotiating with....................

NO NEGOTIATING with that................Period...........this has gone too far under the last administration............

I suggest if you are going into no mans land you better duck.................there will be fire coming across the lines.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Well here is the thing. First we have no idea who actually released Ford's identity.

Secondly, if we do dodge a bullet on Kavanaugh, the hearing exposed that he is not as non-partisan as a judge is supposed to be. He has a true hatred of the left, and actually used a conspiracy theory that is unproven, that the Clintons are behind this whole thing. He has no idea if that is true or not, and he used it in his hearing. We don't need conspiracy theory nutjobs serving on the Supreme Court.

Lastly, as a judge he should have known better than to say that statements made by Mark Judge and the other person Ford said was at the party, backed up his statement that he was never there. In fact that isn't true. They said they don't remember the party, that isn't the same as saying it didn't happen and that the party didn't happen. Those are two totally different things. A judge that is going to serve on the highest court in the land should know better, and if he does know better, but instead made that statement, then he was being dishonest.

This isn't exactly a debate post... Everyone is welcome to whatever opinion and whatever facts they find most compelling.

I am simply asking that folks decide where their principles lay - and to go vote for what they believe in.

And people should vote based on what is best for society as a whole, not what their party tells them to. Republicans are saying that Democrats are being so hard on Kavanaugh simply because he is being appointed by Trump. That's not true at all. There was no accusations or anything like this AT ALL with Gorsuch. The real issue here is, it's much easier for the Republicans to blame this on partisanship, and use that as a backdoor from the situation and to pump their base, than to take the time to find out if the accusations are true or not. It's plain as day.

I don’t think this would have been so bad if McConnell had not tried to rush this process, which for other nominees took much longer (Kagan was83 days I think), refused to allow important material to be released an what material was released came one big data dump with no time examine. Had he not insisted on a rush, there would have been time to quietly and thoroughly vet EVERYTHING. Ford’s name should never have been leaked and neither should the nature of the charges until an investigation was complete.

Everyone has mud on their faces here including theRepublicans and Kavanaugh.

You want to talk about a last minute data dump yet you're unconcerned about DiFi holding onto Fords ridiculous story for damn near two months only to drop it in our laps at the last second.

 

[EverCurious]

This is what I see here in this circle jerk thread. LOL

... you sound like a partisan hack dear. I did say that this wouldn't apply to that type so you were warned.

Whatever..........there are lines in the dang sand........they attacked Americans for their beliefs...............there is no middle ground here.......

Just as this filthy last minute attack as they held on to the information since July............their tactics are beyond any negotiating with....................

NO NEGOTIATING with that................Period...........this has gone too far under the last administration............

I suggest if you are going into no mans land you better duck.................there will be fire coming across the lines.

So you suggest we open fire and start the civil war.

I say we try to vote these fuckers out of power first.

~shrug~