Zone1 For Christians who believe in Darwinian evolution, question

[forkup]

Again... so what. It's not about when Genesis was written, dummy. The first eleven chapters were oral accounts that were passed down from generation to generation for thousands of years before it was recorded in writing.

Do you think it is possible to pass down oral accounts for thousands of years with any degree of accuracy?

The thing that strikes me Ding is that in order to get to the existence of a god you are presupposing the existence of the supernational ( incorporial world). Without ever actually having any proof of it.

Science is a method to try to establish the truth. Not a belief system. It by definition doesn't pretend certainty just probability.

It has over the years proven to be a much more accurate way in understanding the universe than any faith. Of which there have been and are thousands. Each of which professes absolute certainty and very little in the way of actual proof.

 

[surada]

Again... so what. It's not about when Genesis was written, dummy. The first eleven chapters were oral accounts that were passed down from generation to generation for thousands of years before it was recorded in writing.

Notice that the stories were borrowed from Sumer, Egypt and the Canaanites.

 

[ding]

Do you think it is possible to pass down oral accounts for thousands of years with any degree of accuracy?

I believe the account can be passed down but the meaning gets diluted, corrupted or lost. I imagine great discussions followed each telling. What else were they going to do with their time in the evenings?

 

[ding]

The thing that strikes me Ding is that in order to get to the existence of a god you are presupposing the existence of the supernational ( incorporial world).

That's an incorrect assumption. I actually evaluated each case. Can you say the same?

 

[ding]

Without ever actually having any proof of it.

Can I use something you created as evidence?

 

[ding]

Science is a method to try to establish the truth. Not a belief system. It by definition doesn't pretend certainty just probability.

Science is the study of nature to discover the order within nature so as to be able to make predictions of nature. Truth is discovered. Usually through what I call a conflict and confusion process. Diversity of thought is critical to that process.

Can you tell me what one must do to be objective? It can be stated in a simple sentence of only four words. Because discovering truth requires objectivity. And if you don't know what is required to be objective, you'll have a hard time discovering truth.

 

[ding]

It has over the years proven to be a much more accurate way in understanding the universe than any faith. Of which there have been and are thousands. Each of which professes absolute certainty and very little in the way of actual proof.

I'm a degreed engineer who spent 37 years in various engineering roles. I'm pretty familiar with science. As such I don't believe it's a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce life and intelligence. It is literally written into the fabric of matter. There are an infinite number of ways that matter can be structured and our universe could have been created in exactly the same way for each one but there is only one structure of matter that can produce life and intelligence.

 

[ding]

Notice that the stories were borrowed from Sumer, Egypt and the Canaanites.

Let's test that. Can you link to the story that told the account of a monotheistic God creating existence?

 

[surada]

Let's test that. Can you link to the story that told the account of a monotheistic God creating existence?

This may help. It's older. The people in the garden were there to serve the gods until they became too noisy.

The Atrahasis Epic: The Great Flood & the Meaning of Suffering

The Atrahasis is the Akkadian/Babylonian epic of the Great Flood sent by the gods to destroy human life. Only the good man, Atrahasis (his name translates as `exceedingly wise') was warned of the impending...

www.worldhistory.org

 

[Donald H]

This may help. It's older. The people in the garden were there to serve the gods until they became too noisy.

The Atrahasis Epic: The Great Flood & the Meaning of Suffering

The Atrahasis is the Akkadian/Babylonian epic of the Great Flood sent by the gods to destroy human life. Only the good man, Atrahasis (his name translates as `exceedingly wise') was warned of the impending...

www.worldhistory.org

Regardless of the god, we should be able to assume that not a single species that exists today would have been loaded onto the Ark.

Therefore, if there didn't exist any species larger than a fruit fly, the story works.

A much smaller wooden boat is possible and the rest can be a combination of rhetoric and literal.

 

[ding]

This may help. It's older. The people in the garden were there to serve the gods until they became too noisy.

The Atrahasis Epic: The Great Flood & the Meaning of Suffering

The Atrahasis is the Akkadian/Babylonian epic of the Great Flood sent by the gods to destroy human life. Only the good man, Atrahasis (his name translates as `exceedingly wise') was warned of the impending...

www.worldhistory.org

I asked for a link to their creation narrative that you claim was copied by the Hebrews. Do you have one or not?

And I don't want to see someone's commentary on the narrative. I want the narrative itself.

 

[ding]

Regardless of the god, we should be able to assume that not a single species that exists today would have been loaded onto the Ark.

Therefore, if there didn't exist any species larger than a fruit fly, the story works.

A much smaller wooden boat is possible and the rest can be a combination of rhetoric and literal.

You must be dumber than a fundamentalist to read that account literally. Don't you know better?

 

[surada]

I asked for a link to their creation narrative that you claim was copied by the Hebrews. Do you have one or not?

And I don't want to see someone's commentary on the narrative. I want the narrative itself.

Read History Begins at Sumer by Noah Samuel Kramer. He spent 50 years translating the narrative. You want instant knowledge like fast food?

What is your engineering degree?

 

[Donald H]

I asked for a link to their creation narrative that you claim was copied by the Hebrews. Do you have one or not?

And I don't want to see someone's commentary on the narrative. I want the narrative itself.

Genesis creation narrative - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ding]

Genesis creation narrative - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I already know that one. She's claiming it was copied from an earlier culture which is the one I want to see.

 

[ding]

Read History Begins at Sumer by Noah Samuel Kramer. He spent 50 years translating the narrative. You want instant knowledge like fast food?

I want you to provide the narrative that you claim it was copied from. Do you have it? Because it's your claim to prove. Not mine. If you don't have it then all you have is hearsay. Hearsay is not evidence.

 

[Donald H]

You must be dumber than a fundamentalist to read that account literally. Don't you know better?

You've at least provided an example of one bible story that isn't to be taken literally.
Your opinions are no more acceptable than the opinions of other Christians.
You believe in Darwinian evolution and creation, knowing that the two contradict each other.

I was attempting to be charitable for the sake of expanding the discussion to being something closer to reality.

Who told you that you could just throw out the entire Ark story when it's believed to be the literal truth by apparently half of Christians. Would you dare put it to the test with a poll on this board?

 

[ding]

You've at least provided an example of one bible story that isn't to be taken literally.
Your opinions are no more acceptable than the opinions of other Christians.
You believe in Darwinian evolution and creation, knowing that the two contradict each other.

I was attempting to be charitable for the sake of expanding the discussion to being something closer to reality.

Who told you that you could just throw out the entire Ark story when it's believed to be the literal truth by apparently half of Christians. Would you dare put it to the test with a poll on this board?

You must determine the literary style for not only each book but each chapter. That is literally the first thing you must do. That this is a foreign concept to you tells me you have never made a serious investigation of any account in the Bible.

 

[ding]

You believe in Darwinian evolution and creation, knowing that the two contradict each other.

Incorrect. They compliment each other. Again... in it's simplest form the first two chapters of Genesis tells us in allegorical form that God created existence and that the world ancient men lived in was part of a process and not created all at once. And that man AROSE from that creation.

 

[ding]

Who told you that you could just throw out the entire Ark story when it's believed to be the literal truth by apparently half of Christians. Would you dare put it to the test with a poll on this board?

That's a whole other discussion which has nothing to do with this topic. The first eleven chapters of Genesis are ALL allegorical accounts of historical events that occurred thousands of years before these accounts were recorded in writing.

All ancient cultures have an account of a flood. Why? Because there was an event that happened 6,000 to 10,000 years ago. Most likely a large asteroid that either landed in the ocean or the polar region which disrupted weather patterns and cause severe flooding throughout parts of the world. I can point to two different asteroid strikes that could have been the source of accounts that were recorded across the globe. Much like the account of Exodus, you are being confused by Jewish embellishment which was intended to make these accounts more memorable so that they could be passed down to future generations because that's how knowledge and history was passed down 6,000 years ago. Orally. What is clear though is that despite Jewish embellishment we can know that something noteworthy did happen because these people thought it was important enough to pass down.