Free Will in the Afterlife

[CorvusRexus]

I was pondering what I could make a thread over, and then I recalled several debates I had with my Jr. High and High School religion teachers. The topic: free will in the afterlife.
Just to give a brief retelling of how these would go down (keep in mind I was all of 14-16)-
Student: Will we remember our loved ones in Heaven?
Teacher: No, we shall have no recollection of our Earthly lives in Heaven.
Me: What?!?! So we ourselves, our mental selves, our experiences, us shall not go into Heaven, but cease to exist?
Teacher: Yes, of course.
Me: But what about people in Hell? If they lost their memories, they would not remember what they did to suffer, and if they can keep their old lives, then they are the ones who truly get immortal life?
Teacher: Well of course they would remember if they were in Hell!
Me: So I get to lose me because of my good deeds, but they retain their lives for evil? What if I played my free will card on God and told him I wanted to remain myself in Heaven and recall my life?
Teacher: You get no choice in the matter. You can't tell God what to do.
Me: So we all lose ourselves to God and become his mindless slaves who are always "happy" even though it might as well be a drug-induced state?
Teacher: Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... (Silence, as he/she goes to their desk to write down a note to send me to the principal's office for spreading dangerous and heretical ideas.)
What is your answer to my conundrum? Will we all become God's slaves in the end, as recompense for our good works?

 

[Chuckt]

We will have recollection of our earthly lives in heaven.

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

We shall not cease to exist.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Here is a little known verse that compares man to an undying worm:

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

As for the rest, I do not wish to make your debate.

 

[CorvusRexus]

We will have recollection of our earthly lives in heaven.

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

We shall not cease to exist.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Here is a little known verse that compares man to an undying worm:

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

As for the rest, I do not wish to make your debate.

Well, you are more reasonable than my religion teachers. And much more capable.

But I shall thus argue this: What if our earthly memories and lives lead us to desire sin in heaven?

 

[Chuckt]

We will have recollection of our earthly lives in heaven.

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

We shall not cease to exist.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Here is a little known verse that compares man to an undying worm:

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

As for the rest, I do not wish to make your debate.

Well, you are more reasonable than my religion teachers. And much more capable.

But I shall thus argue this: What if our earthly memories and lives lead us to desire sin in heaven?

You will have a different kind of body with different programming.

 

[vanityofvanitys]

As to your teacher, I might suggest the verse in Proverbs (I believe?) that says “security lies in the council of the many.” In other words, do not rely on one secular voice or opinion.

You will find a thousand voices (many of the saints) who will disagree with your teacher. You will surely know your loved ones in heaven, you will surely know of many virtues or times on earth. Beyond that it is more difficult to speculate. I would think you will not be aware of any loved one who may be in hell because there is no sorrow in heaven. But I cannot say with any certainty at all how that might actually play out?

I will say I have more trust in Catholic teaching than I do in many others’ interpretation of Scripture. And one interesting declaration from the Vatican II council of the 1960’s speaks to the glories of heaven. People often wonder or ask if the pleasures they experience on earth will be allowed in heaven. From Vatican II it appears their teaching says yes. At least that is one priest’s teaching on the meaning of the following passage from Vatican II:

For after we have obeyed the Lord, and in His Spirit nurtured on earth the values of human dignity, brotherhood and freedom, and indeed all the good fruits of our nature and enterprise, we will find them again, but freed of stain, burnished and transfigured, when Christ hands over to the Father: "a kingdom eternal and universal, a kingdom of truth and life, of holiness and grace, of justice, love and peace."(24) On this earth that Kingdom is already present in mystery. When the Lord returns it will be brought into full flower.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


However, I thought your question was more to the nature of free will in heaven? Meaning, will we be able to choose something that is not as pleasing to our Lord or will we be like angels, incapable of sinning? It appears the latter, but we are still higher than the angels because we have gone through a trial and along with our free will have made the right choices and sacrificed on earth for the rewards of heaven. So I do not think our lack of that kind of free will will be any hindrance to our glorious existence in the least.

So our being granted a place in heaven reminds me of the immortal Joan of Arc. Mark Twain, who was as cynical towards organized religion and Christians in general, nevertheless, was obsessed and in love with Joan of Arc more than any other human being who ever lived. By far! It is an amazing thing to read about how much he adored her and admired her above all others. But to abridge this as much as possible, all in France were either dumbfounded or incensed that Joan of Arc stood next to the King of France at his crowning. This was so not right and beyond that she bore her standard (her flag in battle) which again was unheard of at such a crowning. It caused a scandal. At her trial where she was ultimately convicted of heresy and burned at the stake, Mark Twain in his book says the following:

"asked at her trial why it was her standard (The standard depicts the Virgin Mary and two angels) had a place at the crowning of the King in the Cathedral of Reims rather than the standards of the other captains, she uttered that touching speech, "It had borne the burden, it had earned the honor" -- a phrase which fell from her lips without premeditation, yet whose moving beauty and simple grace it would bankrupt the arts of language to surpass."

Mark Twain was blown away by the young Joan’s words without hesitation. The author of the article comments how he loves Twain’s description of those words and Joan --- “bankrupt the arts of language to surpass.” I think it’s insightful as well. But I say all this just to bring it back to why we might be happy in heaven without free will and higher than the angels who also have no free will (so to speak). Because as mere mortals who endured earthly livesa and went through the trial it can be said of us "it had borne the burden, it had earned the honor.” In other words, it's not as if God just gave us this eternal reward without something done on our part.

 

[editec]

So in heaven those who eshewed sin shall be rewarded by having their memories wiped out?

Now that is a FORM of death as one's memories ARE one's personalithy

But those who sinned?

They get everlasting life in hell?

And these teachers of yours do not think their version of GOD IS INSANE?


My fellow believers continue to amaze me.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

I was pondering what I could make a thread over, and then I recalled several debates I had with my Jr. High and High School religion teachers. The topic: free will in the afterlife.
Just to give a brief retelling of how these would go down (keep in mind I was all of 14-16)-
Student: Will we remember our loved ones in Heaven?
Teacher: No, we shall have no recollection of our Earthly lives in Heaven.
Me: What?!?! So we ourselves, our mental selves, our experiences, us shall not go into Heaven, but cease to exist?
Teacher: Yes, of course.
Me: But what about people in Hell? If they lost their memories, they would not remember what they did to suffer, and if they can keep their old lives, then they are the ones who truly get immortal life?
Teacher: Well of course they would remember if they were in Hell!
Me: So I get to lose me because of my good deeds, but they retain their lives for evil? What if I played my free will card on God and told him I wanted to remain myself in Heaven and recall my life?
Teacher: You get no choice in the matter. You can't tell God what to do.
Me: So we all lose ourselves to God and become his mindless slaves who are always "happy" even though it might as well be a drug-induced state?
Teacher: Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... (Silence, as he/she goes to their desk to write down a note to send me to the principal's office for spreading dangerous and heretical ideas.)
What is your answer to my conundrum? Will we all become God's slaves in the end, as recompense for our good works?

Unless your teacher had died and returned with this knowledge I wouldn't spend any more time pondering it.

For the record, we don't have free will here or anywhere else. We have what they call free choice. We can choose to obey G-d or not, but free will would imply we could disobey without repercussion. Obviously the concept of sin rules that out.

As to what heaven/afterlife is like, my best answer I've discovered after 25 or so years studying comparative religions is this:

"I don't know - I've never died before."

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Some more about good and evil and choice vs will from those wiser than I:

"Thus G‑d created a world in which goodness and evil are equal options, and He created humanity with the freedom to choose. Our penchant for goodness is not greater than our proclivity for evil; we are evenly balanced. If we want to embrace goodness we must make a choice, and choices reflect who we are. We are not forced into goodness by powers beyond ourselves. We are moved by our choice, by an inner conviction that goodness is right. This inner resolve reflects the goodness within our souls and comes as close as humanity can possibly come to being inherently good.

G‑d did not create evil so that we could indulge it, but so that we could avoid it. If evil did not exist, choosing against it would not be possible, and perfection would slip from our grasp. That evil is a viable option makes it possible for us to choose against it and affirm our inherent goodness."

more at link below,
Why Did G-d Create Evil? - Inner Stream - Parsha

 

[Dajjal]

Here is a spiritualist book about the afterlife, according to them we do remember everything.

LIFE IN THE WORLD UNSEEN

 

[BreezeWood]

the goal for the Spirit is to sustain itself without a physiology, as a life in the Everlasting - undoubtedly as susceptible to death then as before but with a far greater chance to live "forever" ...

 

[CorvusRexus]

So in heaven those who eshewed sin shall be rewarded by having their memories wiped out?

Now that is a FORM of death as one's memories ARE one's personalithy

But those who sinned?

They get everlasting life in hell?

And these teachers of yours do not think their version of GOD IS INSANE?


My fellow believers continue to amaze me.

Sarcasm?

 

[CorvusRexus]

As to your teacher, I might suggest the verse in Proverbs (I believe?) that says “security lies in the council of the many.” In other words, do not rely on one secular voice or opinion.

You will find a thousand voices (many of the saints) who will disagree with your teacher. You will surely know your loved ones in heaven, you will surely know of many virtues or times on earth. Beyond that it is more difficult to speculate. I would think you will not be aware of any loved one who may be in hell because there is no sorrow in heaven. But I cannot say with any certainty at all how that might actually play out?

I will say I have more trust in Catholic teaching than I do in many others’ interpretation of Scripture. And one interesting declaration from the Vatican II council of the 1960’s speaks to the glories of heaven. People often wonder or ask if the pleasures they experience on earth will be allowed in heaven. From Vatican II it appears their teaching says yes. At least that is one priest’s teaching on the meaning of the following passage from Vatican II:

For after we have obeyed the Lord, and in His Spirit nurtured on earth the values of human dignity, brotherhood and freedom, and indeed all the good fruits of our nature and enterprise, we will find them again, but freed of stain, burnished and transfigured, when Christ hands over to the Father: "a kingdom eternal and universal, a kingdom of truth and life, of holiness and grace, of justice, love and peace."(24) On this earth that Kingdom is already present in mystery. When the Lord returns it will be brought into full flower.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


However, I thought your question was more to the nature of free will in heaven? Meaning, will we be able to choose something that is not as pleasing to our Lord or will we be like angels, incapable of sinning? It appears the latter, but we are still higher than the angels because we have gone through a trial and along with our free will have made the right choices and sacrificed on earth for the rewards of heaven. So I do not think our lack of that kind of free will will be any hindrance to our glorious existence in the least.

So our being granted a place in heaven reminds me of the immortal Joan of Arc. Mark Twain, who was as cynical towards organized religion and Christians in general, nevertheless, was obsessed and in love with Joan of Arc more than any other human being who ever lived. By far! It is an amazing thing to read about how much he adored her and admired her above all others. But to abridge this as much as possible, all in France were either dumbfounded or incensed that Joan of Arc stood next to the King of France at his crowning. This was so not right and beyond that she bore her standard (her flag in battle) which again was unheard of at such a crowning. It caused a scandal. At her trial where she was ultimately convicted of heresy and burned at the stake, Mark Twain in his book says the following:

"asked at her trial why it was her standard (The standard depicts the Virgin Mary and two angels) had a place at the crowning of the King in the Cathedral of Reims rather than the standards of the other captains, she uttered that touching speech, "It had borne the burden, it had earned the honor" -- a phrase which fell from her lips without premeditation, yet whose moving beauty and simple grace it would bankrupt the arts of language to surpass."

Mark Twain was blown away by the young Joan’s words without hesitation. The author of the article comments how he loves Twain’s description of those words and Joan --- “bankrupt the arts of language to surpass.” I think it’s insightful as well. But I say all this just to bring it back to why we might be happy in heaven without free will and higher than the angels who also have no free will (so to speak). Because as mere mortals who endured earthly livesa and went through the trial it can be said of us "it had borne the burden, it had earned the honor.” In other words, it's not as if God just gave us this eternal reward without something done on our part.

So we will have earned the ability to not choose "sin" as defined by a crackpot God who smites people willy-nilly? That is our grand reward?

 

[vanityofvanitys]

As to your teacher, I might suggest the verse in Proverbs (I believe?) that says “security lies in the council of the many.” In other words, do not rely on one secular voice or opinion.

You will find a thousand voices (many of the saints) who will disagree with your teacher. You will surely know your loved ones in heaven, you will surely know of many virtues or times on earth. Beyond that it is more difficult to speculate. I would think you will not be aware of any loved one who may be in hell because there is no sorrow in heaven. But I cannot say with any certainty at all how that might actually play out?

I will say I have more trust in Catholic teaching than I do in many others’ interpretation of Scripture. And one interesting declaration from the Vatican II council of the 1960’s speaks to the glories of heaven. People often wonder or ask if the pleasures they experience on earth will be allowed in heaven. From Vatican II it appears their teaching says yes. At least that is one priest’s teaching on the meaning of the following passage from Vatican II:

For after we have obeyed the Lord, and in His Spirit nurtured on earth the values of human dignity, brotherhood and freedom, and indeed all the good fruits of our nature and enterprise, we will find them again, but freed of stain, burnished and transfigured, when Christ hands over to the Father: "a kingdom eternal and universal, a kingdom of truth and life, of holiness and grace, of justice, love and peace."(24) On this earth that Kingdom is already present in mystery. When the Lord returns it will be brought into full flower.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


However, I thought your question was more to the nature of free will in heaven? Meaning, will we be able to choose something that is not as pleasing to our Lord or will we be like angels, incapable of sinning? It appears the latter, but we are still higher than the angels because we have gone through a trial and along with our free will have made the right choices and sacrificed on earth for the rewards of heaven. So I do not think our lack of that kind of free will will be any hindrance to our glorious existence in the least.

So our being granted a place in heaven reminds me of the immortal Joan of Arc. Mark Twain, who was as cynical towards organized religion and Christians in general, nevertheless, was obsessed and in love with Joan of Arc more than any other human being who ever lived. By far! It is an amazing thing to read about how much he adored her and admired her above all others. But to abridge this as much as possible, all in France were either dumbfounded or incensed that Joan of Arc stood next to the King of France at his crowning. This was so not right and beyond that she bore her standard (her flag in battle) which again was unheard of at such a crowning. It caused a scandal. At her trial where she was ultimately convicted of heresy and burned at the stake, Mark Twain in his book says the following:

"asked at her trial why it was her standard (The standard depicts the Virgin Mary and two angels) had a place at the crowning of the King in the Cathedral of Reims rather than the standards of the other captains, she uttered that touching speech, "It had borne the burden, it had earned the honor" -- a phrase which fell from her lips without premeditation, yet whose moving beauty and simple grace it would bankrupt the arts of language to surpass."

Mark Twain was blown away by the young Joan’s words without hesitation. The author of the article comments how he loves Twain’s description of those words and Joan --- “bankrupt the arts of language to surpass.” I think it’s insightful as well. But I say all this just to bring it back to why we might be happy in heaven without free will and higher than the angels who also have no free will (so to speak). Because as mere mortals who endured earthly livesa and went through the trial it can be said of us "it had borne the burden, it had earned the honor.” In other words, it's not as if God just gave us this eternal reward without something done on our part.

So we will have earned the ability to not choose "sin" as defined by a crackpot God who smites people willy-nilly? That is our grand reward?

Apparently, you had made up your mind already as to how this should play out? You wanted the answer to be that we are drug-induced slaves for God with no memory of the past to alter our robotic existence.

Fine. Go believe that so you can stay angry. Are you honest enough to admit that is what you want so you can maintain this righteous defiance? Or are you simply trying to justify your disobedience now by demonstrating that you, as a good person, could never have been expected to follow that kind perverse teaching?

Or do tell, what were you expecting or hoping to hear?

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Interestingly, the 'we don't remember our life' notion isn't without precedent. Mormons believe they pre-existed in heaven before this world. To get an 'incarnation' on earth they had to promise G-d to be good and obediant to His will (or however they'd put it.) Once here though they have no memory of their existence in heaven.

 

[CorvusRexus]

As to your teacher, I might suggest the verse in Proverbs (I believe?) that says “security lies in the council of the many.” In other words, do not rely on one secular voice or opinion.

You will find a thousand voices (many of the saints) who will disagree with your teacher. You will surely know your loved ones in heaven, you will surely know of many virtues or times on earth. Beyond that it is more difficult to speculate. I would think you will not be aware of any loved one who may be in hell because there is no sorrow in heaven. But I cannot say with any certainty at all how that might actually play out?

I will say I have more trust in Catholic teaching than I do in many others’ interpretation of Scripture. And one interesting declaration from the Vatican II council of the 1960’s speaks to the glories of heaven. People often wonder or ask if the pleasures they experience on earth will be allowed in heaven. From Vatican II it appears their teaching says yes. At least that is one priest’s teaching on the meaning of the following passage from Vatican II:

For after we have obeyed the Lord, and in His Spirit nurtured on earth the values of human dignity, brotherhood and freedom, and indeed all the good fruits of our nature and enterprise, we will find them again, but freed of stain, burnished and transfigured, when Christ hands over to the Father: "a kingdom eternal and universal, a kingdom of truth and life, of holiness and grace, of justice, love and peace."(24) On this earth that Kingdom is already present in mystery. When the Lord returns it will be brought into full flower.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


However, I thought your question was more to the nature of free will in heaven? Meaning, will we be able to choose something that is not as pleasing to our Lord or will we be like angels, incapable of sinning? It appears the latter, but we are still higher than the angels because we have gone through a trial and along with our free will have made the right choices and sacrificed on earth for the rewards of heaven. So I do not think our lack of that kind of free will will be any hindrance to our glorious existence in the least.

So our being granted a place in heaven reminds me of the immortal Joan of Arc. Mark Twain, who was as cynical towards organized religion and Christians in general, nevertheless, was obsessed and in love with Joan of Arc more than any other human being who ever lived. By far! It is an amazing thing to read about how much he adored her and admired her above all others. But to abridge this as much as possible, all in France were either dumbfounded or incensed that Joan of Arc stood next to the King of France at his crowning. This was so not right and beyond that she bore her standard (her flag in battle) which again was unheard of at such a crowning. It caused a scandal. At her trial where she was ultimately convicted of heresy and burned at the stake, Mark Twain in his book says the following:

"asked at her trial why it was her standard (The standard depicts the Virgin Mary and two angels) had a place at the crowning of the King in the Cathedral of Reims rather than the standards of the other captains, she uttered that touching speech, "It had borne the burden, it had earned the honor" -- a phrase which fell from her lips without premeditation, yet whose moving beauty and simple grace it would bankrupt the arts of language to surpass."

Mark Twain was blown away by the young Joan’s words without hesitation. The author of the article comments how he loves Twain’s description of those words and Joan --- “bankrupt the arts of language to surpass.” I think it’s insightful as well. But I say all this just to bring it back to why we might be happy in heaven without free will and higher than the angels who also have no free will (so to speak). Because as mere mortals who endured earthly livesa and went through the trial it can be said of us "it had borne the burden, it had earned the honor.” In other words, it's not as if God just gave us this eternal reward without something done on our part.

So we will have earned the ability to not choose "sin" as defined by a crackpot God who smites people willy-nilly? That is our grand reward?

Apparently, you had made up your mind already as to how this should play out? You wanted the answer to be that we are drug-induced slaves for God with no memory of the past to alter our robotic existence.

Fine. Go believe that so you can stay angry. Are you honest enough to admit that is what you want so you can maintain this righteous defiance? Or are you simply trying to justify your disobedience now by demonstrating that you, as a good person, could never have been expected to follow that kind perverse teaching?

Or do tell, what were you expecting or hoping to hear?

Nope. I just play it by ear. Whatever stupid answers or doctrines I hear I just try to make the people aware of the stupidity of their belief or at least make sure they know what they're signing up for. Very little annoys me more than someone who violently hates every religion other than theirs, yet is unaware of what their own religion preaches.

 

[vanityofvanitys]

So we will have earned the ability to not choose "sin" as defined by a crackpot God who smites people willy-nilly? That is our grand reward?

Apparently, you had made up your mind already as to how this should play out? You wanted the answer to be that we are drug-induced slaves for God with no memory of the past to alter our robotic existence.

Fine. Go believe that so you can stay angry. Are you honest enough to admit that is what you want so you can maintain this righteous defiance? Or are you simply trying to justify your disobedience now by demonstrating that you, as a good person, could never have been expected to follow that kind perverse teaching?

Or do tell, what were you expecting or hoping to hear?

Nope. I just play it by ear. Whatever stupid answers or doctrines I hear I just try to make the people aware of the stupidity of their belief or at least make sure they know what they're signing up for. Very little annoys me more than someone who violently hates every religion other than theirs, yet is unaware of what their own religion preaches.

Well I got news for you. Just because someone tells you X is a doctrine of the Christian faith does not make it so. So do not get too excited about your strawmen.

And just because you know of a few posters who "violently hate every religion other than theirs," again, do not get to euphoric that you have just found the perfect excuse to debunk Christianity. You have not.

You appear to be playing games, and as long as you get to choose who the players are and set up your own rules... well, I bet you are going to win the game.

But what a hollow victory.

 

[CorvusRexus]

Apparently, you had made up your mind already as to how this should play out? You wanted the answer to be that we are drug-induced slaves for God with no memory of the past to alter our robotic existence.

Fine. Go believe that so you can stay angry. Are you honest enough to admit that is what you want so you can maintain this righteous defiance? Or are you simply trying to justify your disobedience now by demonstrating that you, as a good person, could never have been expected to follow that kind perverse teaching?

Or do tell, what were you expecting or hoping to hear?

Nope. I just play it by ear. Whatever stupid answers or doctrines I hear I just try to make the people aware of the stupidity of their belief or at least make sure they know what they're signing up for. Very little annoys me more than someone who violently hates every religion other than theirs, yet is unaware of what their own religion preaches.

Well I got news for you. Just because someone tells you X is a doctrine of the Christian faith does not make it so. So do not get too excited about your strawmen.

And just because you know of a few posters who "violently hate every religion other than theirs," again, do not get to euphoric that you have just found the perfect excuse to debunk Christianity. You have not.

You appear to be playing games, and as long as you get to choose who the players are and set up your own rules... well, I bet you are going to win the game.

But what a hollow victory.

But you misunderstand! I have no intention whatsoever of debunking Christianity. I am a Catholic myself, albeit one who believes doctrine should be determined by each individual's interpretation of scripture, not an institution.

 

[vanityofvanitys]

Nope. I just play it by ear. Whatever stupid answers or doctrines I hear I just try to make the people aware of the stupidity of their belief or at least make sure they know what they're signing up for. Very little annoys me more than someone who violently hates every religion other than theirs, yet is unaware of what their own religion preaches.

Well I got news for you. Just because someone tells you X is a doctrine of the Christian faith does not make it so. So do not get too excited about your strawmen.

And just because you know of a few posters who "violently hate every religion other than theirs," again, do not get to euphoric that you have just found the perfect excuse to debunk Christianity. You have not.

You appear to be playing games, and as long as you get to choose who the players are and set up your own rules... well, I bet you are going to win the game.

But what a hollow victory.

But you misunderstand! I have no intention whatsoever of debunking Christianity. I am a Catholic myself, albeit one who believes doctrine should be determined by each individual's interpretation of scripture, not an institution.

Well what on earth does any of that have to do with your "conundrum" that we may be turned into mindless robots in heaven?

First of all, that idea is off any charts to any legitimate way of Christian thought. It's even insulting to God, IMO.

Now you tell me you are a Catholic but all Catholics should be able to determine what doctrines are true or should be followed based on their own feelings of right and wrong? Is that idea of yours God inspired or somehow deduced from Scripture?

What the Church tells me and what Scripture tells me is that fallible man is all too often in search of teachers who will tell them what their "itchy ears" so want to hear. IOW, man wants the easy way out and still be allowed into the kingdom. This is a sure anti-God way of looking at things, IMO.

Jesus establishes His Church in Matthew 16 and elsewhere and gives to thee "the keys of the kingdom" no less! He also says "whatsoever thou bind on earth shall be held bound in heaven." Can it be any more clear? Obey the Church, not your own personal wishes when the two conflict.

 

[CorvusRexus]

Well I got news for you. Just because someone tells you X is a doctrine of the Christian faith does not make it so. So do not get too excited about your strawmen.

And just because you know of a few posters who "violently hate every religion other than theirs," again, do not get to euphoric that you have just found the perfect excuse to debunk Christianity. You have not.

You appear to be playing games, and as long as you get to choose who the players are and set up your own rules... well, I bet you are going to win the game.

But what a hollow victory.

But you misunderstand! I have no intention whatsoever of debunking Christianity. I am a Catholic myself, albeit one who believes doctrine should be determined by each individual's interpretation of scripture, not an institution.

Well what on earth does any of that have to do with your "conundrum" that we may be turned into mindless robots in heaven?

First of all, that idea is off any charts to any legitimate way of Christian thought. It's even insulting to God, IMO.

Now you tell me you are a Catholic but all Catholics should be able to determine what doctrines are true or should be followed based on their own feelings of right and wrong? Is that idea of yours God inspired or somehow deduced from Scripture?

What the Church tells me and what Scripture tells me is that fallible man is all too often in search of teachers who will tell them what their "itchy ears" so want to hear. IOW, man wants the easy way out and still be allowed into the kingdom. This is a sure anti-God way of looking at things, IMO.

Jesus establishes His Church in Matthew 16 and elsewhere and gives to thee "the keys of the kingdom" no less! He also says "whatsoever thou bind on earth shall be held bound in heaven." Can it be any more clear? Obey the Church, not your own personal wishes when the two conflict.

But is God not changeable? My philosophy is that many pagan religions were actually their interpretations of God as he appeared to them. If God appeared to ancient cultures differently based on how he wanted them to interpret him, wouldn't it stand to reason that God appears to us all uniquely based upon the interpretation we personally discover? Besides, I always interpreted the "Church" as not a reference to sects and divisions and establishments, but rather God's Kingdom. Jesus brings the final incarnation and update from God and thus establishes his "Church." As all of us are members of the body of Christ, we all are members of the church. And as a body has many parts and functions, so do our own interpretations of Scripture and how our personal faith impacts the Church.

 

[Moonglow]

I was pondering what I could make a thread over, and then I recalled several debates I had with my Jr. High and High School religion teachers. The topic: free will in the afterlife.
Just to give a brief retelling of how these would go down (keep in mind I was all of 14-16)-
Student: Will we remember our loved ones in Heaven?
Teacher: No, we shall have no recollection of our Earthly lives in Heaven.
Me: What?!?! So we ourselves, our mental selves, our experiences, us shall not go into Heaven, but cease to exist?
Teacher: Yes, of course.
Me: But what about people in Hell? If they lost their memories, they would not remember what they did to suffer, and if they can keep their old lives, then they are the ones who truly get immortal life?
Teacher: Well of course they would remember if they were in Hell!
Me: So I get to lose me because of my good deeds, but they retain their lives for evil? What if I played my free will card on God and told him I wanted to remain myself in Heaven and recall my life?
Teacher: You get no choice in the matter. You can't tell God what to do.
Me: So we all lose ourselves to God and become his mindless slaves who are always "happy" even though it might as well be a drug-induced state?
Teacher: Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... (Silence, as he/she goes to their desk to write down a note to send me to the principal's office for spreading dangerous and heretical ideas.)
What is your answer to my conundrum? Will we all become God's slaves in the end, as recompense for our good works?

I'll be the one smokin' a joint and selling hookers, wait, I got that backwards...