Free Will?

[GotZoom]

Good try... I never said we don't have basic choices in life..... Same principle in me choosing to grab a life preserver if I'm drowning....

That is right. And you life preserver could be an excellent metaphor for God.

 

[Abbey Normal]

Do you live in WA? Near Tacoma-area?

Nah. East coast my whole life.

 

[-Cp]

That is right. And you life preserver could be an excellent metaphor for God.

No, actually, it can't... because in the context of God - we are all "Spiritually blind" and can't see that life preserver - not until his Spirit removes the blindness...

 

[-Cp]

Nah. East coast my whole life.

Well then get yer butt on an airplane and get out here...

 

[Abbey Normal]

Okay, here I come...

 

[Annie]

Nah. East coast my whole life.

Wow, you should connect with Bonnie. You guys have so much in common. I don't know if you are Catholic, but with the Abbey thing I'll guess yes. She is also on the East coast and seems you would get along great!

I know you posted you had a child, she has a step child(ren) but in divorce now. She is in school, history I believe. You said you are taking Constitutional Law, so you should have lots in common! Cool.

 

[Abbey Normal]

Wow, you should connect with Bonnie. You guys have so much in common. I don't know if you are Catholic, but with the Abbey thing I'll guess yes. She is also on the East coast and seems you would get along great!

I know you posted you had a child, she has a step child(ren) but in divorce now. She is in school, history I believe. You said you are taking Constitutional Law, so you should have lots in common! Cool.

That's nice of you to think of me! You are half right about the Catholic thing. I was raised Catholic, but am not one any longer. As for Con Law, it's been years since I was in law school, but it's still floating around in the brain somewhere I guess.

 

[Annie]

That's nice of you to think of me! You are half right about the Catholic thing. I was raised Catholic, but am not one any longer. As for Con Law, it's been years since I was in law school, but it's still floating around in the brain somewhere I guess.

Sorry, I probably read wrong. Seemed to me that you said you had a con law prof saying something or other. I can get things mixed up! Great posts so far, glad you are here.

 

[Abbey Normal]

Sorry, I probably read wrong. Seemed to me that you said you had a con law prof saying something or other. I can get things mixed up! Great posts so far, glad you are here.

No, you are right. I did talk about my Con Law professor in the Legal forum.

Thanks for the compliment and the welcome!

 

[Annie]

No, you are right. I did talk about my Con Law professor in the Legal forum.

Thanks for the compliment and the welcome!

You're welcome. Sorry for any mix up.

 

[dmp]

Your arguments say nothing to the fact that manking, somehow, has a "free will" to choose God.... Adam had that choice and blew it for everyone - we're all born sinners thanks to him.. we did not CHOOSE that... he did..

The ONLY way we can somehow "choose" God if if he first chooses us.. "Free Will" implies that man can somehow go and find God on his own accord... which isn't Biblical...

The Prodigal Son, of his OWN FREE WILL decided to Find his Father.

Jesus, of his OWN FREE WILL decided to Find/Follow God - Jesus CHOSE to discover and embrace his diety

Those discipled CHOSE CHRIST by Voluntarily STEPPING out of the boat. Nowhere in scripture did Christ 'levitate them' to dry land.

Explain how we can 'love' somebody who imposes their will over ours? Explain how that is 'true love'...Agape Love.

We didn't choose our sinful nature, ADAM did...Not God. God loves us, and wants us to TURN FROM (not 'be turned from') following the desires of our flesh.

You can't understand that because you refuse to.

 

[-Cp]

The Prodigal Son, of his OWN FREE WILL decided to Find his Father.

He did so, because he never ceased to be his father's son - even while in his "fallen state" - once saved always saved..

Jesus, of his OWN FREE WILL decided to Find/Follow God - Jesus CHOSE to discover and embrace his diety

Jesus was God in the flesh - of course he had the choice... to do otherwise would be contrary to his nature.

Those discipled CHOSE CHRIST by Voluntarily STEPPING out of the boat. Nowhere in scripture did Christ 'levitate them' to dry land.

Not sure how that ties into Salvation of one's soul...

Explain how we can 'love' somebody who imposes their will over ours? Explain how that is 'true love'...Agape Love.

We can love God - because his will is perfect - and he's our creator...

We didn't choose our sinful nature, ADAM did...Not God. God loves us, and wants us to TURN FROM (not 'be turned from') following the desires of our flesh.

You've just stated what I stated before - the only ones who had true "Free Will" were Adam and Eve - they made the choice for us..

He does want us to repent - but he also knows that can't happen until the Spirit first convicts us of our sins...

 

[Avatar4321]

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Duet 30:19)

Sounds like we have choice here.

The Fall of Adam brought sin in the world. Because of the Fall, death and sin were our lots in this life. And if it weren't for the Atonement of the Savior we would have no choice but to suffer for the mistakes we've made and die forever, spending an eternity separate from our bodies in hell in eternal misery.

But because Christ atoned for our sins we have a choice. We don't have a choice in whether we will rise from the dead. That has already been determined by His resurrection. But we have a choice whether we will seek the Lord and enter into sacred covenants with Him as our forefathers have or we can refuse him, seek after our own wordly pleasures. We can choose life or death. Happiness or misery. All conditioned on Repentence. If we choose the Lord to be our God, He will choose us to be His people.

The Lord has given the invitation for everyone in the world and they are free to accept. The Lord also invites us in our own personal lives through events designed to help us turn to Him and learn of Him. He invites us to be His bride, and we can either accept or reject that.

If we accept that we will take His name upon ourselves and He will be our leader. We will become Joint heirs with Christ. He will cover our sins. This is not because we somehow "Worked" ourselves to salvation. That is impossible. Salvation comes only through the Lord. But the Lord expects us to enter into covenants and Keep His Commandments. He expects us to repent of our sins. He doesn't call us to save us in our sins, but to save us from our sins. The Lord won't force us to repent or to come to him any more than it would be right for a man to force a woman to marry him. A covenant takes actions on both sides. and that is what the New Testament, or New Covenant is all about.

 

[dmp]

He did so, because he never ceased to be his father's son - even while in his "fallen state" - once saved always saved..

So what if He decided NOT to come back to his Father's house? No salvation...he'd continue in 'pigs'. The story was symbolic of God welcoming BACK - NOTHING of the Father was awarded to the son, until the son took the Father up on his grace.

Jesus was God in the flesh - of course he had the choice... to do otherwise would be contrary to his nature.

Ahh..but Jesus didn't always know his deity. Jesus had to learn to read, write, tie his, uh, sandals, etc. It wasn't until Jesus accepted who is is, as a Man AND God did his ministry start.

You've just stated what I stated before - the only ones who had true "Free Will" were Adam and Eve - they made the choice for us..

They made the choice to SIN. WE make the choice to 'stop'.

He does want us to repent - but he also knows that can't happen until the Spirit first convicts us of our sins...

...and until we ACT on those convictions. I can be convicted of sin, yet choose NOT to repent.


again, circular logic...

 

[dmp]

Sounds like we have choice here.

The Fall of Adam brought sin in the world. Because of the Fall, death and sin were our lots in this life. And if it weren't for the Atonement of the Savior we would have no choice but to suffer for the mistakes we've made and die forever, spending an eternity separate from our bodies in hell in eternal misery.

But because Christ atoned for our sins we have a choice. We don't have a choice in whether we will rise from the dead. That has already been determined by His resurrection. But we have a choice whether we will seek the Lord and enter into sacred covenants with Him as our forefathers have or we can refuse him, seek after our own wordly pleasures. We can choose life or death. Happiness or misery. All conditioned on Repentence. If we choose the Lord to be our God, He will choose us to be His people.

The Lord has given the invitation for everyone in the world and they are free to accept. The Lord also invites us in our own personal lives through events designed to help us turn to Him and learn of Him. He invites us to be His bride, and we can either accept or reject that.

If we accept that we will take His name upon ourselves and He will be our leader. We will become Joint heirs with Christ. He will cover our sins. This is not because we somehow "Worked" ourselves to salvation. That is impossible. Salvation comes only through the Lord. But the Lord expects us to enter into covenants and Keep His Commandments. He expects us to repent of our sins. He doesn't call us to save us in our sins, but to save us from our sins. The Lord won't force us to repent or to come to him any more than it would be right for a man to force a woman to marry him. A covenant takes actions on both sides. and that is what the New Testament, or New Covenant is all about.

-Cp will say, "Unless God acts upon your heart, even against or with no regard for your will, You'll be unable to 'hear' God calling...or bringing salvation, etc".

It's an easy argument for him, because he'll just go back to "Well, we DON'T have choice, because God FORCES us, or MOVES us to accept him w/o regard to our honest choice" - to EVERY argument presented against it.

 

[Avatar4321]

-Cp will say, "Unless God acts upon your heart, even against or with no regard for your will, You'll be unable to 'hear' God calling...or bringing salvation, etc".

It's an easy argument for him, because he'll just go back to "Well, we DON'T have choice, because God FORCES us, or MOVES us to accept him w/o regard to our honest choice" - to EVERY argument presented against it.

Yeah, I know. But the scriptures say otherwise. As does the entire concept of a covenant relationship. As does the concept of justice. God cannot be a God of Justice if he punishes us for sins we could not choose to do. How would it be just or compassionate for God to punish us for sins we had no choice in doing? Such a being seems foreign to the entire concept of the the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He may disagree, that's fine. But I've already cited two prophets telling us to choose for ourselves.

 

[-Cp]

It's amazing what people will want to believe by randomly picking out things from the Bible only to somehow enforce their views - even if those passages aren't relevant...

Please -try and pay attention here - don't mad at me, Paul wrote this:

Romans:
10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

And for those who say 'Oh, but I can still choose to practice sin - even after I'm saved" - well, I'm sorry, if that's the case then you weren't saved to begin with - again, let's see what the Bible says:

1 John 3
7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Epesians 1:
3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. 5In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

I don't want to hear any response to what I've posted other than your explanation as to what else these passages could possibly mean...

 

[Markainion]

Roman chapter 9, 18
"Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

CP the scriptures you are quoting differ slightly from the King James version of the Bible. Regardless the point of these scriptures has less to do with free will versus preordained life, but instead to do with a person’s birthright. After all in the past some were born as nobility others as peasants, and it is not our right to question.

King James version Roman chapter 9 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Hath, according to the Webster Dictionary means 3rd person have.

Clearly your version and the King James Version differ on this, I am not an expert on the different translations, but I find this difference interesting.

 

[GotZoom]

It's amazing what people will want to believe by randomly picking out things from the Bible only to somehow enforce their views - even if those passages aren't relevant...

Please -try and pay attention here - don't mad at me, Paul wrote this:



And for those who say 'Oh, but I can still choose to practice sin - even after I'm saved" - well, I'm sorry, if that's the case then you weren't saved to begin with - again, let's see what the Bible says:





I don't want to hear any response to what I've posted other than your explanation as to what else these passages could possibly mean...

This is why religious debate can be so stimulating and frustration. Everybody does this, based on their interpretation of the scripture.

Your statement above..about everyone picking certain things out of the Bible to support their view; you are doing the same thing.

I'll throw this in. Same Bible..same Scripture. Two beliefs/interpretations.

CALVINISM AND CATHOLICISM CONTRASTED

Calvin : God's sovereignty determines the will.
Catholic : God's sovereignty includes free will.

Calvin : Predestination as predetermination.
Catholic : Predestination as infallible foreknowledge.

Calvin : God desires only the salvation of the elect.
Catholic : God desires the salvation of all.

Calvin : God provides grace only to the elect.
Catholic : God provides grace to all, though not all accept it.

Calvin : Christ died only for the elect.
Catholic : Christ died for all men.

Calvin : God predetermines some for hell.
Catholic : Men merit hell by their own wickedness.

Calvin : The elect include all those born-again.
Catholic : The elect are those who persevere to the end.

Calvin : Grace co-opts human free will.
Catholic : Grace perfects the free will that cooperates.

Calvin : Those in grace (born-again) can't fall away.
Catholic : Those in grace can freely sin and lose grace.

Calvin : The elect will unfailingly persevere.
Catholic : The elect are those who have persevered.

Calvin : The elect are assured of their salvation.
Catholic : Yes, but only God knows who they are.

Calvin : Predestination eliminates merit and guilt.
Catholic : Predestination includes merit and guilt.

Anything look familiar?

 

[dmp]

Romans:14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

First, Define what "IT" is.

16These good things from God are not given to someone because he wants them or works to get them. They are given because of His lovingkindness.

This translation shows the context to be 'God's Gifts' are not EARNED, or given SIMPLY because we want them.

...God's mercy - God's Blessings are/is not a function of our desire - it's a function of Him. We have no mercy, no power of our own. This has nothing to do with free will. You're 'reading into' things big time.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Has nothing to do with salvation - but God's 'calling' on our lives. Of course we can resist God's calling/direction/will...Jonah, etc.

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

I have no idea why you highlighted that part...doesn't seem to make sense in the context of this topic.

And for those who say 'Oh, but I can still choose to practice sin - even after I'm saved" - well, I'm sorry, if that's the case then you weren't saved to begin with - again, let's see what the Bible says:

Sinning doesn't preclude one from Salvation.

1 John 3
9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

I don't want to hear any response to what I've posted other than your explanation as to what else these passages could possibly mean...

You will get the rest when YOU respond to the countless OTHER verses with interpretation of how they CLEARLY show 'our part' in the relationship with God we desire. You strive/crave/look so deeply for the one or two verses, when, if translated a certain way, give over to what you want to believe, and ignore the mountains of evidence which shows otherwise.