Freedom of Religion? Christian Artists Face Jail Time For Not Making Same-Sex Wedding Invitations

[NYcarbineer]

Where in the bible does it say one cannot print words on a piece of paper for gay people? Their business is NOT a religion

The bible states homosexuality is a sin, and the bible states Christians should not partake in, support, or encourage sinning. Obeying the teachings of their faith is exercising the freedom of their religion. Exercising their freedom affects how they do business.

Try passing a law outlawing Muslim women covering their heads or forbidding Muslims from using prayer rugs or Muslim store owners from stooping what they are doing while working to suddenly pray and see how that goes. No such demand would even be thought of no less imposed on Muslims.

The Bible does not say homosexual marriage is a sin.

 

[easyt65]

[QUOTE="BlindBoo, post: 15984874, member: 25197
Yeah it's about making them um, er them Gays, into second class citizens not worthy of service in the real America![/QUOTE]
That is your opinion because you do not share the same religious beliefs. The fact is it has nothing to do specifically, totally, to do with LGBT except in the sense that it involves religious teachings and the adherence of those teachings by those who believe.

 

[martybegan]

'Two Arizona Christian artists face the possibility of being jailed, in addition to being fined, after they recently refused to make invitations for a same-sex wedding.'

Ummmm...did we go to bed and suddenly wake up in Communist Russia, China, or North Korea?

Liberals have been pushing the GLBT Lifestyle on everyone as 'the norm', except it ISN'T to many Americans, especially those who have a religious objection to it. Those religious beliefs - and the practice of them - are actually PROTECTED by the Constitution:

"The Free Exercise Clause is the accompanying clause with the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. The Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause together read:

“ Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

What do the Liberal / LGBT 'Nazi's' not understand about that?!

Liberals can argue all day long about how it's discrimination, but it's not. It is one's personal religious belief, part of their faith, and THAT, again, is protected by the Constitution.

So Liberals are going to demand everyone else comply with their demands, regardless of what the Constitution says, and if the individuals refuse they are going to judicially punish them?!

This is an example of WHY we have the Constitution, why we have the Bill of Rights - to protect us from tyranny that encroaches on our personal rights!

I am NOT comparing these, but let's say in the future somehow liberals ram a law onto the books allowing Pedophilia, Bestiality, or Necrophilia? If Christians refuse to participate in any part of those, even if it has been approved by the government, will the government move to punish Christians - to jail Christians - for exercising their Constitutional Right to exercise their religion?
(-- Pretty ironic since this nation only exists because of a people who left England so they could freely exercise their religion without Government oppression, condemnation, and control.)

I understand laws against discrimination - I do, and I do support them....but I draw the line here. The Constitution clearly states, again:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

The government, however, is encroaching more and more on our rights while justifying doing so more and more. Doing so, allowing it to be done, is the start down a very dangerous road (IMO).


TOPIC:
Christian artists face jail time for refusing to make same-sex wedding invitations

SUPPORTING:
Free Exercise Clause - Wikipedia

Were these folks prevented from attending worship services? Was their church closed? How were they prevented from practicing their religion, exactly?

Freedom of religion isn't just about going to church, or being able to go to church.

Yeah it's about making them um, er them Gays, into second class citizens not worthy of service in the real America!

So instead you turn these people in 2nd class citizens, over a freaking wedding invitation.

Also, NYC makes me a 2nd class citizen by making me wait 3-6 months and pay $800 or so to get a home handgun permit, while cops are allowed home use automatically.

I bet you don't have an issue with that, right?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Public accommodation laws clearly state that a person cannot be discriminated against because of race religion or sexual orientation.
If you want to run a business you have to obey the law.

However any law that is contradictory to the United States Constitution is itself illegal. The United States Constitution provides for the Freedom of Religion and the 'exercise thereof'.

Where in the bible does it say one cannot print words on a piece of paper for gay people?

Their business is NOT a religion

One does not give up constitutional rights because one wants to sell something.

you have yet to tell me how printing words on paper stops those people from practicing their religion

they are doing something against their moral code, due to government coercion. The whole idea of the 1st amendment is to allow them to do so, and place a burden on the government to say why forcing them to do so is needed, and to do so in such a way as to minimally impact their right to practice religion as they see fit.

You don't get to decide what is or isn't moral and the government be damned. That's reality.

 

[easyt65]

Where in the bible does it say one cannot print words on a piece of paper for gay people? Their business is NOT a religion

The bible states homosexuality is a sin, and the bible states Christians should not partake in, support, or encourage sinning. Obeying the teachings of their faith is exercising the freedom of their religion. Exercising their freedom affects how they do business.

Try passing a law outlawing Muslim women covering their heads or forbidding Muslims from using prayer rugs or Muslim store owners from stooping what they are doing while working to suddenly pray and see how that goes. No such demand would even be thought of no less imposed on Muslims.

The Bible does not say homosexual marriage is a sin.

Try again...

The Bible teaches homosexuality is an abomination, a sin.

 

[martybegan]

Where in the bible does it say one cannot print words on a piece of paper for gay people? Their business is NOT a religion

The bible states homosexuality is a sin, and the bible states Christians should not partake in, support, or encourage sinning. Obeying the teachings of their faith is exercising the freedom of their religion. Exercising their freedom affects how they do business.

Try passing a law outlawing Muslim women covering their heads or forbidding Muslims from using prayer rugs or Muslim store owners from stooping what they are doing while working to suddenly pray and see how that goes. No such demand would even be thought of no less imposed on Muslims.

The Bible does not say homosexual marriage is a sin.

Considering it says homosexual acts are a sin, it doesn't have to go into that much detail.

 

[martybegan]

However any law that is contradictory to the United States Constitution is itself illegal. The United States Constitution provides for the Freedom of Religion and the 'exercise thereof'.

Where in the bible does it say one cannot print words on a piece of paper for gay people?

Their business is NOT a religion

One does not give up constitutional rights because one wants to sell something.

you have yet to tell me how printing words on paper stops those people from practicing their religion

they are doing something against their moral code, due to government coercion. The whole idea of the 1st amendment is to allow them to do so, and place a burden on the government to say why forcing them to do so is needed, and to do so in such a way as to minimally impact their right to practice religion as they see fit.

You don't get to decide what is or isn't moral and the government be damned. That's reality.

And government doesn't get to decide to punish people over no actual harm, only hurt feelings. If you were actually a fan of the constitution, you would know that.

Argumentum ad abusrdum, the first refuge of the dumbass.

 

[mdk]

To refuse to do something for people who are black, women/men, etc... is not supported biblically and thus would indeed be discriminatory.

Well, it doesn't need to be biblically supported. It only needs to be a deeply held religious belief. That being said, nobody should be forced to do business with anyone aganist their wishes.

 

[martybegan]

Doesn't the Bible teach that we are all sinners?

The law has nothing to do with the Bible. If you have a business open to the public in Phoenix the law is you can't refuse to do business with someone based on their sexual orientation.

but you could based on their political views.... so where is the equal protection?

 

[easyt65]

You don't get to decide what is or isn't moral and the government be damned. That's reality.

No I don't, but I san point out that the United States Constitution protects 'freedom of religion and the exercise thereof' from liberals who seek to control and enforce their will on Christians.

 

[Nosmo King]

'Two Arizona Christian artists face the possibility of being jailed, in addition to being fined, after they recently refused to make invitations for a same-sex wedding.'

Ummmm...did we go to bed and suddenly wake up in Communist Russia, China, or North Korea?

Liberals have been pushing the GLBT Lifestyle on everyone as 'the norm', except it ISN'T to many Americans, especially those who have a religious objection to it. Those religious beliefs - and the practice of them - are actually PROTECTED by the Constitution:

"The Free Exercise Clause is the accompanying clause with the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. The Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause together read:

“ Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

What do the Liberal / LGBT 'Nazi's' not understand about that?!

Liberals can argue all day long about how it's discrimination, but it's not. It is one's personal religious belief, part of their faith, and THAT, again, is protected by the Constitution.

So Liberals are going to demand everyone else comply with their demands, regardless of what the Constitution says, and if the individuals refuse they are going to judicially punish them?!

This is an example of WHY we have the Constitution, why we have the Bill of Rights - to protect us from tyranny that encroaches on our personal rights!

I am NOT comparing these, but let's say in the future somehow liberals ram a law onto the books allowing Pedophilia, Bestiality, or Necrophilia? If Christians refuse to participate in any part of those, even if it has been approved by the government, will the government move to punish Christians - to jail Christians - for exercising their Constitutional Right to exercise their religion?
(-- Pretty ironic since this nation only exists because of a people who left England so they could freely exercise their religion without Government oppression, condemnation, and control.)

I understand laws against discrimination - I do, and I do support them....but I draw the line here. The Constitution clearly states, again:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

The government, however, is encroaching more and more on our rights while justifying doing so more and more. Doing so, allowing it to be done, is the start down a very dangerous road (IMO).


TOPIC:
Christian artists face jail time for refusing to make same-sex wedding invitations

SUPPORTING:
Free Exercise Clause - Wikipedia

Were these folks prevented from attending worship services? Was their church closed? How were they prevented from practicing their religion, exactly?

Freedom of religion isn't just about going to church, or being able to go to church.

And it isn't about discriminating in commerce either.

 

[easyt65]

Doesn't the Bible teach that we are all sinners?

Ah, another attempt to justify FORCING Christians to give up their religious beliefs.

'Since we are all sinners and can't stop sinning - anything goes?!

 

[martybegan]

To refuse to do something for people who are black, women/men, etc... is not supported biblically and thus would indeed be discriminatory.

Well, it doesn't need to be biblically supported. It only needs to be a deeply held religious belief. That being said, nobody should be forced to do business with anyone aganist their wishes.

 

[martybegan]

'Two Arizona Christian artists face the possibility of being jailed, in addition to being fined, after they recently refused to make invitations for a same-sex wedding.'

Ummmm...did we go to bed and suddenly wake up in Communist Russia, China, or North Korea?

Liberals have been pushing the GLBT Lifestyle on everyone as 'the norm', except it ISN'T to many Americans, especially those who have a religious objection to it. Those religious beliefs - and the practice of them - are actually PROTECTED by the Constitution:

"The Free Exercise Clause is the accompanying clause with the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. The Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause together read:

“ Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

What do the Liberal / LGBT 'Nazi's' not understand about that?!

Liberals can argue all day long about how it's discrimination, but it's not. It is one's personal religious belief, part of their faith, and THAT, again, is protected by the Constitution.

So Liberals are going to demand everyone else comply with their demands, regardless of what the Constitution says, and if the individuals refuse they are going to judicially punish them?!

This is an example of WHY we have the Constitution, why we have the Bill of Rights - to protect us from tyranny that encroaches on our personal rights!

I am NOT comparing these, but let's say in the future somehow liberals ram a law onto the books allowing Pedophilia, Bestiality, or Necrophilia? If Christians refuse to participate in any part of those, even if it has been approved by the government, will the government move to punish Christians - to jail Christians - for exercising their Constitutional Right to exercise their religion?
(-- Pretty ironic since this nation only exists because of a people who left England so they could freely exercise their religion without Government oppression, condemnation, and control.)

I understand laws against discrimination - I do, and I do support them....but I draw the line here. The Constitution clearly states, again:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

The government, however, is encroaching more and more on our rights while justifying doing so more and more. Doing so, allowing it to be done, is the start down a very dangerous road (IMO).


TOPIC:
Christian artists face jail time for refusing to make same-sex wedding invitations

SUPPORTING:
Free Exercise Clause - Wikipedia

Were these folks prevented from attending worship services? Was their church closed? How were they prevented from practicing their religion, exactly?

Freedom of religion isn't just about going to church, or being able to go to church.

And it isn't about discriminating in commerce either.

Why not? Why should people be forced to participate in something against their moral code, over nothing more than hurt feelings?

 

[Nosmo King]

Publish the names and addresses of the gay complainers.

To,suit what purpose? Where's the virtue in your proposal?

 

[Nosmo King]

'Two Arizona Christian artists face the possibility of being jailed, in addition to being fined, after they recently refused to make invitations for a same-sex wedding.'

Ummmm...did we go to bed and suddenly wake up in Communist Russia, China, or North Korea?

Liberals have been pushing the GLBT Lifestyle on everyone as 'the norm', except it ISN'T to many Americans, especially those who have a religious objection to it. Those religious beliefs - and the practice of them - are actually PROTECTED by the Constitution:

"The Free Exercise Clause is the accompanying clause with the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. The Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause together read:

“ Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

What do the Liberal / LGBT 'Nazi's' not understand about that?!

Liberals can argue all day long about how it's discrimination, but it's not. It is one's personal religious belief, part of their faith, and THAT, again, is protected by the Constitution.

So Liberals are going to demand everyone else comply with their demands, regardless of what the Constitution says, and if the individuals refuse they are going to judicially punish them?!

This is an example of WHY we have the Constitution, why we have the Bill of Rights - to protect us from tyranny that encroaches on our personal rights!

I am NOT comparing these, but let's say in the future somehow liberals ram a law onto the books allowing Pedophilia, Bestiality, or Necrophilia? If Christians refuse to participate in any part of those, even if it has been approved by the government, will the government move to punish Christians - to jail Christians - for exercising their Constitutional Right to exercise their religion?
(-- Pretty ironic since this nation only exists because of a people who left England so they could freely exercise their religion without Government oppression, condemnation, and control.)

I understand laws against discrimination - I do, and I do support them....but I draw the line here. The Constitution clearly states, again:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

The government, however, is encroaching more and more on our rights while justifying doing so more and more. Doing so, allowing it to be done, is the start down a very dangerous road (IMO).


TOPIC:
Christian artists face jail time for refusing to make same-sex wedding invitations

SUPPORTING:
Free Exercise Clause - Wikipedia

Were these folks prevented from attending worship services? Was their church closed? How were they prevented from practicing their religion, exactly?

Freedom of religion isn't just about going to church, or being able to go to church.

You want an all white church, you can probably have it. What you can't have is an all white place of business.

if the business is non-essential, non time sensitive, and easily obtainable elsewhere, why not?

Spoken like someone comfortable with apartheid

 

[easyt65]

I think I am going to go into a Vegan restaurant tonight, order a steak, act immensely offended they don't offer meat, declare I am being discriminated against, and demand they either start selling meat or be forced out of business, despite the fact that there are other places I can go that sells steaks.

All offensive discriminating business must be destroyed.

 

[BlindBoo]

'Two Arizona Christian artists face the possibility of being jailed, in addition to being fined, after they recently refused to make invitations for a same-sex wedding.'

Ummmm...did we go to bed and suddenly wake up in Communist Russia, China, or North Korea?

Liberals have been pushing the GLBT Lifestyle on everyone as 'the norm', except it ISN'T to many Americans, especially those who have a religious objection to it. Those religious beliefs - and the practice of them - are actually PROTECTED by the Constitution:

"The Free Exercise Clause is the accompanying clause with the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. The Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause together read:

“ Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

What do the Liberal / LGBT 'Nazi's' not understand about that?!

Liberals can argue all day long about how it's discrimination, but it's not. It is one's personal religious belief, part of their faith, and THAT, again, is protected by the Constitution.

So Liberals are going to demand everyone else comply with their demands, regardless of what the Constitution says, and if the individuals refuse they are going to judicially punish them?!

This is an example of WHY we have the Constitution, why we have the Bill of Rights - to protect us from tyranny that encroaches on our personal rights!

I am NOT comparing these, but let's say in the future somehow liberals ram a law onto the books allowing Pedophilia, Bestiality, or Necrophilia? If Christians refuse to participate in any part of those, even if it has been approved by the government, will the government move to punish Christians - to jail Christians - for exercising their Constitutional Right to exercise their religion?
(-- Pretty ironic since this nation only exists because of a people who left England so they could freely exercise their religion without Government oppression, condemnation, and control.)

I understand laws against discrimination - I do, and I do support them....but I draw the line here. The Constitution clearly states, again:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

The government, however, is encroaching more and more on our rights while justifying doing so more and more. Doing so, allowing it to be done, is the start down a very dangerous road (IMO).


TOPIC:
Christian artists face jail time for refusing to make same-sex wedding invitations

SUPPORTING:
Free Exercise Clause - Wikipedia

Were these folks prevented from attending worship services? Was their church closed? How were they prevented from practicing their religion, exactly?

Freedom of religion isn't just about going to church, or being able to go to church.

Yeah it's about making them um, er them Gays, into second class citizens not worthy of service in the real America!

So instead you turn these people in 2nd class citizens, over a freaking wedding invitation.

Also, NYC makes me a 2nd class citizen by making me wait 3-6 months and pay $800 or so to get a home handgun permit, while cops are allowed home use automatically.

I bet you don't have an issue with that, right?

Are they doing business, open to the public, in Phoenix? They are business owners like everyone else in Phoenix and they should all play by the same rules.

Move to Texas. We sell guns and you can open a business and discriminate against the Gays all day long.

 

[TheDude]

Say leftists, where in the bible does it state you must not reject opening your mouth to human feces? Answer: Nowhere. Thus to the liberal, this must be an acceptable trait and Christians must participate.

 

[martybegan]

'Two Arizona Christian artists face the possibility of being jailed, in addition to being fined, after they recently refused to make invitations for a same-sex wedding.'

Ummmm...did we go to bed and suddenly wake up in Communist Russia, China, or North Korea?

Liberals have been pushing the GLBT Lifestyle on everyone as 'the norm', except it ISN'T to many Americans, especially those who have a religious objection to it. Those religious beliefs - and the practice of them - are actually PROTECTED by the Constitution:

"The Free Exercise Clause is the accompanying clause with the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. The Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause together read:

“ Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

What do the Liberal / LGBT 'Nazi's' not understand about that?!

Liberals can argue all day long about how it's discrimination, but it's not. It is one's personal religious belief, part of their faith, and THAT, again, is protected by the Constitution.

So Liberals are going to demand everyone else comply with their demands, regardless of what the Constitution says, and if the individuals refuse they are going to judicially punish them?!

This is an example of WHY we have the Constitution, why we have the Bill of Rights - to protect us from tyranny that encroaches on our personal rights!

I am NOT comparing these, but let's say in the future somehow liberals ram a law onto the books allowing Pedophilia, Bestiality, or Necrophilia? If Christians refuse to participate in any part of those, even if it has been approved by the government, will the government move to punish Christians - to jail Christians - for exercising their Constitutional Right to exercise their religion?
(-- Pretty ironic since this nation only exists because of a people who left England so they could freely exercise their religion without Government oppression, condemnation, and control.)

I understand laws against discrimination - I do, and I do support them....but I draw the line here. The Constitution clearly states, again:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

The government, however, is encroaching more and more on our rights while justifying doing so more and more. Doing so, allowing it to be done, is the start down a very dangerous road (IMO).


TOPIC:
Christian artists face jail time for refusing to make same-sex wedding invitations

SUPPORTING:
Free Exercise Clause - Wikipedia

Were these folks prevented from attending worship services? Was their church closed? How were they prevented from practicing their religion, exactly?

Freedom of religion isn't just about going to church, or being able to go to church.

You want an all white church, you can probably have it. What you can't have is an all white place of business.

if the business is non-essential, non time sensitive, and easily obtainable elsewhere, why not?

Spoken like someone comfortable with apartheid

WRONG.

that was government mandated discrimination, unequal at that, of the core issues in public and private life. Education, Economic opportunity, government access, ability to vote.

Here we are talking about a non-government, non-essential, non-time sensitive, easily replaceable private interaction between two parties.

Not even in the same ballpark, but it's interesting you have to resort to it to attempt to make a point.