French call for stronger EU to keep America in check

[j07950]

Yes, why should I believe a foriegner? Especially when when many foriegners have publicly stated that their greatest wish is to see me and mine DEAD.

Yes my "conditioning" runs very deep! How wonderful it is to see that many Europeans (apparently yourself included) have not been conditioned to believe anything except that the United States is BAD and are more than willing to help us poor, brainwashed Americans see the light. How altruistic.

I love america, I lived 6 years in NJ. I'm not saying the US is bad, only the people running it. The foreigners whishing to see you dead aren't europeans in most cases, I don't know where you've gotten that. That's such bullshit. I make my opinion on what I read and learn at university, which for that matter is in the UK, supposedly your strongest ally, right? So no, I don't think I'm being conditioned. Especially since the links to what I posted earlier on where from american journalists, politicians etc... I guess I'm conditioned by your people then in believing the government in place is corrupt...how bizzare!!!

 

[nosarcasm]

frankly I doubt you ever left your island, Limey

 

[j07950]

I disagree that Bush is incompetent. Who is "we"?

Yes let's talk about the corruption and money making schemes around wars. Let's start with those European countries who were making money despite the UN sanctions or the oil for food scandal. How about we talk about European arms sales to despotic countries and known terrorist states?

I bet a nickel to a donut your reply will be that the US is at fault.

I'm not out to blame everything on the US. Didn't I write earlier on that and I quote "Now obviously it can be said that politicians, and presidents are all in some way corrupt (Chirac for that matter is...) ". What you are saying is true, but in no way close to what the Bushes and co. have been up to. Oh by the way I'm 22 and living in Leeds, UK. But then again I don't see how thats important, you could have seen this information in my profile.

 

[dilloduck]

I'm not out to blame everything on the US. Didn't I write earlier on that and I quote "Now obviously it can be said that politicians, and presidents are all in some way corrupt (Chirac for that matter is...) ". What you are saying is true, but in no way close to what the Bushes and co. have been up to. Oh by the way I'm 22 and living in Leeds, UK. But then again I don't see how thats important, you could have seen this information in my profile.

Because it helps to understand who you are talking to to promote better communication however are not British are you?

 

[CSM]

I love america, I lived 6 years in NJ. I'm not saying the US is bad, only the people running it. The foreigners whishing to see you dead aren't europeans in most cases, I don't know where you've gotten that. That's such bullshit. I make my opinion on what I read and learn at university, which for that matter is in the UK, supposedly your strongest ally, right? So no, I don't think I'm being conditioned. Especially since the links to what I posted earlier on where from american journalists, politicians etc... I guess I'm conditioned by your people then in believing the government in place is corrupt...how bizzare!!!

I didn't say that those foriegners wanting me dead were Europeans. We have already established that I reject the premise that the people running our country are "bad" so we have to agree to disagree there.

Just because you attend a university in the UK does not mean you personally are from the UK. Also, many American journalists and politicians who spout this crap have their own axe to grind. I wonder just how great an effort you have made to read and understand opposing views? Do you have links to websites with content SUPPORTING American leaders and their policies or is your research on the US limit itself to those sites that bash the US? I am not saying that it is the case with you personally, but I find that many critical of the US and the US government make little effort to get a balanced view of things; they tend to find supporting arguments for their already formed opinions without trying to find opposing views or attain a balanced opinion.

 

[j07950]

Because it helps to understand who you are talking to to promote better communication however are not British are you?

No I'm not british, although I've lived a few years in and out of the UK, France and the US...I'm French but only on my passport, can't really say I identify myself to being french, just ben around too much for that.
By the way I'm not out to get you but simply to make you understant what we Europeans feel. Don't think we're against you, you're not victims so don't act like it.

 

[j07950]

I didn't say that those foriegners wanting me dead were Europeans. We have already established that I reject the premise that the people running our country are "bad" so we have to agree to disagree there.

Just because you attend a university in the UK does not mean you personally are from the UK. Also, many American journalists and politicians who spout this crap have their own axe to grind. I wonder just how great an effort you have made to read and understand opposing views? Do you have links to websites with content SUPPORTING American leaders and their policies or is your research on the US limit itself to those sites that bash the US? I am not saying that it is the case with you personally, but I find that many critical of the US and the US government make little effort to get a balanced view of things; they tend to find supporting arguments for their already formed opinions without trying to find opposing views or attain a balanced opinion.

No I read everything I can whether it is for or against the US. I do politics and litterature at university and we study the good and the bad about US foreign politics. The anti-US-government thing is quiet new to us here in Europe, it started with BUSH jr...

 

[CSM]

I'm not out to blame everything on the US. Didn't I write earlier on that and I quote "Now obviously it can be said that politicians, and presidents are all in some way corrupt (Chirac for that matter is...) ". What you are saying is true, but in no way close to what the Bushes and co. have been up to. Oh by the way I'm 22 and living in Leeds, UK. But then again I don't see how thats important, you could have seen this information in my profile.

First I would like to point out that I did not ask for your individual details...someone else did.

Second, the degree of corruption you perceive in US leadership and a comparison to others is skewed (in my opinion). Your statement "...but in no way close to what the Bushes and co. have been up to..." reveals that your interest lies soley in bashing Bush and that you have no real interest in truth.

 

[dilloduck]

No I'm not british, although I've lived a few years in and out of the UK, France and the US...I'm French but only on my passport, can't really say I identify myself to being french, just ben around too much for that.
By the way I'm not out to get you but simply to make you understant what we Europeans feel. Don't think we're against you, you're not victims so don't act like it.

tell that to the 3000 people killed in NY--and their families.

 

[nosarcasm]

By the way I'm not out to get you but simply to make you understant what we Europeans feel. Don't think we're against you, you're not victims so don't act like it.

I am an European and lived in Germany for 30 years. So since when do you speak for Europe. Because you certainly do not speak for me.

 

[CSM]

No I read everything I can whether it is for or against the US. I do politics and litterature at university and we study the good and the bad about US foreign politics. The anti-US-government thing is quiet new to us here in Europe, it started with BUSH jr...

Actually, there has been anti American sentiment in Europe since the end of WWII. Charles DeGaulle (sp?) was no great fan. Many parts of Eastern Europe and Germany have been somewhat anti American over the past decades as well.

 

[j07950]

tell that to the 3000 people killed in NY--and their families.

I'm not talking about that, of course you were victims of terrorist attacks...I'm saying don't feel like europeans hate america, they don't, only those who governs it. So when I read things such as "europeans hate us"; or "we might have to go to war aginst europe or france, and we'll go through it in a few days" I say stop looking out for people who don't like you, you're not victims, it's not your fault; only the people who are choosing for you are making bad choices.

 

[j07950]

Actually, there has been anti American sentiment in Europe since the end of WWII. Charles DeGaulle (sp?) was no great fan. Many parts of Eastern Europe and Germany have been somewhat anti American over the past decades as well.

Thats true but there is a difference between being anti-american and being against what the US government is doing. Even is it has existed for a long time it has never been as strong as today, and that's a shame. But it's in no way anti-american, get that straight. Americans are great. We just don't agree with the governments foreign policies.
DeGaulle loved himself...a bit dodgy himself...

 

[dilloduck]

I'm not talking about that, of course you were victims of terrorist attacks...I'm saying don't feel like europeans hate america, they don't, only those who governs it. So when I read things such as "europeans hate us"; or "we might have to go to war aginst europe or france, and we'll go through it in a few days" I say stop looking out for people who don't like you, you're not victims, it's not your fault; only the people who are choosing for you are making bad choices.

There are probably million of Europeans who support Americans AND it's government. Americans CHOSE our leaders and support their choices so don't offend us by trying to make a separation between the 2. It's like saying you support the troops but not the leaders.

 

[CSM]

I'm not talking about that, of course you were victims of terrorist attacks...I'm saying don't feel like europeans hate america, they don't, only those who governs it. So when I read things such as "europeans hate us"; or "we might have to go to war aginst europe or france, and we'll go through it in a few days" I say stop looking out for people who don't like you, you're not victims, it's not your fault; only the people who are choosing for you are making bad choices.

You forget one thing. The people making choices for us were ELECTED by the citizens of this country.

I suspect that a great deal of the sentiment flowing out of Europe is driven by the fact that many of the choices our government makes are in direct opposition to the interests of many European countries. France and Germany, for example, had a great deal of economic interest in Iraq.

If we stop looking out for people who dont like us, we could very well find ourselves with and event far worse than 9/11 on our hands. Remember that prior to 9/11, very few Americans were looking for the people who didn't like us. 9/11 made many Americans realize that there are those in the world who hate not only America, but everything it stands for. Nothing mobilizes the US citizenry like a sneak attack on the country; make no mistake, the terrorists actions of 9/11 were a sneak attack.

 

[j07950]

I am an European and lived in Germany for 30 years. So since when do you speak for Europe. Because you certainly do not speak for me.

I'm not speaking for europe...the whole thing is about why europeans are against america... Since you obviously aren't this doesn't involve you. I'm just explaining why european are so active in complaining about US foreign policies. I am one of those so I think I can speak on behalf of those people who do complain.

 

[dilloduck]

I'm not speaking for europe...the whole thing is about why europeans are against america... Since you obviously aren't this doesn't involve you. I'm just explaining why european are so active in complaining about US foreign policies. I am one of those so I think I can speak on behalf of those people who do complain.

Complain away---Americans were just shocked to see the lack of support form it's former allies when we were attacked. Then we learn that our former allies and the UN were complicit in propping up Saddam Hussein while the US was trying to keep him in check. Being stabbed in the back is NOT a thing Americans or anyone likes so we are responding in kind. We will get over it but we won't forget who is our friend and who are our new enemies.

 

[j07950]

You forget one thing. The people making choices for us were ELECTED by the citizens of this country.

I suspect that a great deal of the sentiment flowing out of Europe is driven by the fact that many of the choices our government makes are in direct opposition to the interests of many European countries. France and Germany, for example, had a great deal of economic interest in Iraq.

If we stop looking out for people who dont like us, we could very well find ourselves with and event far worse than 9/11 on our hands. Remember that prior to 9/11, very few Americans were looking for the people who didn't like us. 9/11 made many Americans realize that there are those in the world who hate not only America, but everything it stands for. Nothing mobilizes the US citizenry like a sneak attack on the country; make no mistake, the terrorists actions of 9/11 were a sneak attack.

I'm not going to disagree with that. France and Germany,did have a great deal of economic interest in Iraq, so this might be one of the reasons why our governments were against war in Irak but not the only... Also people all over europe were against it, not just governments. How do you explain the millions who marched through the streets to protest against it.
Maybee the people governing you were elected by the american people but what was the %? Winning with 51% doesn't mean that every american is behind the president. I don't see how thats possible. So maybee that being against the US foreign policies means that we are against 51% of the population but I can live with that. And being against it doesn't mean I want you dead. It only means I disagree.

 

[CSM]

... Since you obviously aren't this doesn't involve you. ...

Are you against hearing an opposing European point of view? The fact that you do not have the links to opposition views to your stance makes me believe that you have not tried to get a fair and balanced view of the US. Would you like some links to sites that support US leadership and US foriegn policy? I bet there are many on this board more than willing to provide such!

 

[nosarcasm]

no you can only speak for yourself. It is pretentious to speak for others.
Unless you are elected as a faction leader.

There is not one voice in Europe and the opposition against the war in Iraq is not based on one fact either. What you posted and your attitude reminds
me of a teen that watched Fahrenheit 911 and in school is fed the war
is always evil routine.

There are reasons to oppose this war but for now you havent argued your
own points of views.

Instead you generalized all Americans and all Europeans. You pretty much
went with the Fahrenheit plot and other conspiracy website bs about
Bush.

Then you throw in some De Gaulle. I wrote a Reseach study about
German-French relations since 1870 and de Gaulle was a part of it. What do you really know about France and its politics?

Either way you want to make a case for the war against Iraq please
do that with your own reasoning first, then you can make your
case against the current US administration the US press (that in your
views works for the government by conditioning the poor idiots).

Then hand us your solution for Iraq, withdrawal?