French call for stronger EU to keep America in check

[nosarcasm]

well as a German living in the US it gets pretty crowded with all these
labels.

Idahonian, German, American, European. There is no space for world
citizen. And de facto non of us is. I have resided in England and Belgium
too for some time. But wherever I was the world citizen stuff is more
political correctness then reality. Do you want to give out your tax money
to pay for unemployed in Iran. Pay for welfare in Sub Saharan Africa?
If not the world citizen stuff is a cop out. You may feel morally superior
to the normal folks that just hang in for their nation state but I personally
think it is unrealistic for you to take responsibility for everyone in the world.

The Us despite their perceived nationalism is in a way less nationalistic then
Germany. Germans in general have trouble just saying to be proud to be German because it reminds them of Hitler & Company. Still overwhelmingly
they trust and support the central government and not states rights.

In the US their is a healthy distrust against the government. Rule of thumb seems to be the farther from DC you are the less the Feds are trusted.

Nobody likes paying taxes and not getting a return, especially in the US.
Thats why this world citizen idea will never fly. The US made it to the top
by being an Isolationist country. And it worked very well. THey only intervened in Europe because of a hegemonic threat to their country if
Germany and Japan would have taken over it might have hurt them in the long run. And like Vietnam and Iraq and any other foreign war has shown, it is expensive to meddle in other nations politics. And the returns are not really
worth it if their is no threat to the US. Iraq and Vietnam were perceived as threats but still (luckily) at the end the US tends to check the checkbook to see if it is really worth it.

This makes European blabber about imperialism so childish.

The Kyoto agreement was rejected because it would cost the US the most money and is not really in their interest. Its easy for others who would not have to pay the tab to demand the US pays for it.

I personally think Global warming is happening but like with anything else
you have to gradually upgrade your enviroment standards. Too extreme
changes hurt the economy and in the long run the development of
more enviroment friendly technologies.

There is a reason why gene manipulated food is mostly developed in the US.
Out of political correctness the Europeans have decided that it is too much of a risk to fully invest in this technology. But they forgot about all the developing nations that are in desperate need for crops that can grow
in harsh enviroments.

So in the end the blaming of the US is imo unjustified. Yeah the US is selfish but that is part of the capitalistic mindset and brought the country up to being the most developed country. Socialism is failing so I am not convinced that listening to their recipe on global warming or world citizenship would
be a wise idea.

 

[j07950]

I'd like to say I agree with you...what you're saying is right...But even if they have succeeded as an individualist nation I don't know what's wrong with trying to adhere to making the world a better place. If signing on to the kyoto treaty is going to cost the most to the US it's because they are the biggest industrialized country, but then again they have the biggest economy. If countries like japan and maybee russia (might sign on) can bare the cost than why not the US...I'm not saying right now but gradually, this makes sence. The US represent over 36% of gas emissions worldwide...now I say it's possible to cut down. If not for us, for our children and their children etc...gene manipulated food would indeed be useful to countries such as in Africa, which is why Genetically Modified Food is tested in europe but will not be used. I'd like to think they could be in africa.
When I say world citizen what I really mean is look at the issues around the world and try to solve them for the good of the world, I'm not talking about taxes or aything like that...

 

[dilloduck]

I'd like to say I agree with you...what you're saying is right...But even if they have succeeded as an individualist nation I don't know what's wrong with trying to adhere to making the world a better place. If signing on to the kyoto treaty is going to cost the most to the US it's because they are the biggest industrialized country, but then again they have the biggest economy. If countries like japan and maybee russia (might sign on) can bare the cost than why not the US...I'm not saying right now but gradually, this makes sence. The US represent over 36% of gas emissions worldwide...now I say it's possible to cut down. If not for us, for our children and their children etc...gene manipulated food would indeed be useful to countries such as in Africa, which is why Genetically Modified Food is tested in europe but will not be used. I'd like to think they could be in africa.
When I say world citizen what I really mean is look at the issues around the world and try to solve them for the good of the world, I'm not talking about taxes or aything like that...

Which country does more than the US for the good of the world ? Yes we are wealthier so are we gonna get down to percentages or what? If other countries simply just took care of their own share and not continually look to the US to me the "mother" , MUCH more would be accomplished. People may even want to stay in their OWN country to advance themselves and be free!!

 

[j07950]

Don't really understand what you are saying...

 

[CSM]

...When I say world citizen what I really mean is look at the issues around the world and try to solve them for the good of the world, I'm not talking about taxes or aything like that...

Interesting point of view. From my perspective, every single time the US tries to solve a "World Issue", there are folks who come flying out of nowhere and bash the hell out of the US and it's foriegn policy. The other thing is, despite the idealistic view to the contrary, any action to resolve "World Issues" costs money. In the US, that money comes from the taxpayer.

What disturbs me the most about international relations is the fact that the rest of the world wants US money, resources, and assets but rejects US philosophy. The US is a capitalistic society; it was founded on Christian principles. Many of the 200 some odd nations in the world today flat out reject capitalism and Christianity. Could there possibly be a connection between the US's apparent success and these two principles? Many of those 200 plus nations are socialist, despotic, or toltarian states. It is absolutely necessary for those governments to blame the US for their ills to stay in power, yet it is their own philosophies that keep them from becoming rich and powerful.

 

[nosarcasm]

Many of those 200 plus nations are socialist, despotic, or toltarian states. It is absolutely necessary for those governments to blame the US for their ills to stay in power, yet it is their own philosophies that keep them from becoming rich and powerful.

What is your definition of socialism. Just so I get a better understanding of your point.

 

[j07950]

How is it that there are so many connections between the Bush Family and the following:

Nazi Party (1942) Prescott Bush------read this: http://www.john-loftus.com/bush_nazi_link.asp

GHW Bush, bin Laden family
(Carlyle Group, CIA, Salam bin Laden) read this----: http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=9468&fcategory_desc=Under Reported

GW Bush, James R. Bath (Salam bin Laden, Binladin Group, Arbusto oil company, Caterair) read this: http://www.g-vision.com/newsletter/connection.shtml

Here are just some of the people involved, let us not forget that the Bushs, bin Ladens, and other were involved in attempting to get a pipeline through Afghanistan and the Taliban wanted too much ransom...The United States Government paid the Taliban millions to trash their opium crops.

So this pipeline through Afghanistan was a partnership between, get this!!! ENRON CORP! and Bechtel Corp., General Electric, and Unocal 76. Now the new President of Afghanistan is Hamid Karzi, a former employee of Unocal 76, and the Bush Administration Envoy to Afghanistan, Zalmay Khalizad, former employee of Unocal 76!

Now the United States was having problems with the Taliban and completing this pipeline. The Taliban was not cooperating with the United States (actually the Taliban was not going to accept the little scraps President Bush was offering for cooperation, and was blackmailing them for more). When Osama bin Laden completed his devastating act of cowardice he actually helped President Bush and his buddys a whollllllle lot!

Now that there was the war on terror the United States of Bush could wrangle there way into unseating the Taliban in Afghanistan, and get rid of Saddam in Iraq! The latter as a token of LOVE for his father (and a little oil profit cherry on top!)

Other things to look at:
- http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-4664358,00.html
- http://www.john-loftus.com/enron3.asp#pipeline
- http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&theme=saudi


Now obviously it can be said that politicians, and presidents are all in some way corrupt (Chirac for that matter is...) but this is amazing, it's all been mostly avoided by media in the US, hummm pressure???
Anyway I hope this has helped you somewhat in seeing how war in connected to personal interest...not the americans but the people who are running it.

 

[j07950]

Interesting point of view. From my perspective, every single time the US tries to solve a "World Issue", there are folks who come flying out of nowhere and bash the hell out of the US and it's foriegn policy. The other thing is, despite the idealistic view to the contrary, any action to resolve "World Issues" costs money. In the US, that money comes from the taxpayer.

What disturbs me the most about international relations is the fact that the rest of the world wants US money, resources, and assets but rejects US philosophy. The US is a capitalistic society; it was founded on Christian principles. Many of the 200 some odd nations in the world today flat out reject capitalism and Christianity. Could there possibly be a connection between the US's apparent success and these two principles? Many of those 200 plus nations are socialist, despotic, or toltarian states. It is absolutely necessary for those governments to blame the US for their ills to stay in power, yet it is their own philosophies that keep them from becoming rich and powerful.

You have a point, I'll agree with what you are saying but if only the US solved "World Issues" without looking for personal interests (I'm talking about the people running the show, not you guys) then I'd say yes it's not fair that america has to bail out everyone and use tax payers money to do so. Then again I think the money the US is spending trying to solve world issues is proportional to it's economy, I'm sure european countries aren't too far off in handing out cash (again proportional to it's economy)...

 

[dilloduck]

How is it that there are so many connections between the Bush Family and the following:

Nazi Party (1942) Prescott Bush------read this: http://www.john-loftus.com/bush_nazi_link.asp

GHW Bush, bin Laden family
(Carlyle Group, CIA, Salam bin Laden) read this----: http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=9468&fcategory_desc=Under Reported

GW Bush, James R. Bath (Salam bin Laden, Binladin Group, Arbusto oil company, Caterair) read this: http://www.g-vision.com/newsletter/connection.shtml

Here are just some of the people involved, let us not forget that the Bushs, bin Ladens, and other were involved in attempting to get a pipeline through Afghanistan and the Taliban wanted too much ransom...The United States Government paid the Taliban millions to trash their opium crops.

So this pipeline through Afghanistan was a partnership between, get this!!! ENRON CORP! and Bechtel Corp., General Electric, and Unocal 76. Now the new President of Afghanistan is Hamid Karzi, a former employee of Unocal 76, and the Bush Administration Envoy to Afghanistan, Zalmay Khalizad, former employee of Unocal 76!

Now the United States was having problems with the Taliban and completing this pipeline. The Taliban was not cooperating with the United States (actually the Taliban was not going to accept the little scraps President Bush was offering for cooperation, and was blackmailing them for more). When Osama bin Laden completed his devastating act of cowardice he actually helped President Bush and his buddys a whollllllle lot!

Now that there was the war on terror the United States of Bush could wrangle there way into unseating the Taliban in Afghanistan, and get rid of Saddam in Iraq! The latter as a token of LOVE for his father (and a little oil profit cherry on top!)

Other things to look at:
- http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-4664358,00.html
- http://www.john-loftus.com/enron3.asp#pipeline
- http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&theme=saudi


Now obviously it can be said that politicians, and presidents are all in some way corrupt (Chirac for that matter is...) but this is amazing, it's all been mostly avoided by media in the US, hummm pressure???
Anyway I hope this has helped you somewhat in seeing how war in connected to personal interest...not the americans but the people who are running it.

Some times personal and national interests run concurrently. These connection have been made before-(Michael Moore Money) and people rejected the implications.

 

[CSM]

You have a point, I'll agree with what you are saying but if only the US solved "World Issues" without looking for personal interests (I'm talking about the people running the show, not you guys) then I'd say yes it's not fair that america has to bail out everyone and use tax payers money to do so. Then again I think the money the US is spending trying to solve world issues is proportional to it's economy, I'm sure european countries aren't too far off in handing out cash (again proportional to it's economy)...

The crux of the matter seems to be that you think the US should not look out for its own interests. Being a US citizen (and a damned Yankee to boot!) I am very glad that our government and our leaders look out for US interests first. There are far too many countries, ideologies, religions, etc. in the world today that would like to see the destruction of the United States.

Additionally, I think that many Americans resent being told how and when they should spend their hard earned money by foriegn governments, international organizations, and citizens of other nations, especially when those entities have specious motives.

 

[j07950]

Some times personal and national interests run concurrently. These connection have been made before-(Michael Moore Money) and people rejected the implications.

How is that a benefit to the american people, you are the ones paying for this and its the people who are governing you that are filling their pokets with cash... I don't see how that's a national interest?!
Maybee you feel safer but that's only due to the state of fear that was brought on you.
Did you actually read the articles whose links I posted? Are you saying that's fine, you don't care???

 

[j07950]

The crux of the matter seems to be that you think the US should not look out for its own interests. Being a US citizen (and a damned Yankee to boot!) I am very glad that our government and our leaders look out for US interests first. There are far too many countries, ideologies, religions, etc. in the world today that would like to see the destruction of the United States.

Additionally, I think that many Americans resent being told how and when they should spend their hard earned money by foriegn governments, international organizations, and citizens of other nations, especially when those entities have specious motives.

You didn't get what I was saying, the US should look out for its own interests in staying on top and not being threatened, but something is wrong when the government in place is corrupt and is the only real winner in these wars (again read what I posted and the links).

 

[nosarcasm]

the Nazi - Bush link is bullshit, and yes the press covers this too. I saw a docu about it on the history channel.

Bush was no Lindbergh and was not into the Nazis.


Yes the Bush family does and did business with the Bin Laden family.
Hardly a surprise as both being in the oil business. And Osama is at
least officially an outcast to his family.

Moore pipeline bullshit was quite a conjecture. Lets face it, Afghanistan
has always been a wild place, the British got their ass kicked, the Russians
and the US concentrates on Kabul and the hunt for Bin Laden and avoids
the local warlords and tribes. This is not a secure setup for an oil pipeline.

The fat fuck could have made a solid case against Bush based on incompetence instead he throws out this conspiracy bullshit.
For some thought about the pipeline story go here

http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20011015.html


Bush 1 did not invade Iraq, and he runs the family business. We can speculate
what the true reason for the attack on Iraq was or pick on of the many
the administration handed out but your conspiracy story is way weak.

Read Patrick J. Buchanan "Where the Right went Wrong" I think he nailed the true reason for the war and how it all came together.

And I could make a better case for an oligarchy then this shit. The whole friggin congress is out for themselves but the presidency because of the job identification is less influenced by money woes. Not to mention humans have a need for a legacy. Presidents are in the spotlight and less able to dodge
the press. Clinton these days can not even hide his friggin affairs. Kennedy
had a free pass, these days no president has.

While the press was initially after 9/11 a little bit in a cheerleading mode
this has to do with the rally around the flag syndrom. But I can assure
you that they are now quite critical of the President.

You should stop listening only to the smug European press. I lived in both places and they are not holier then the Americans.

PS: How old are you btw ?

 

[CSM]

You didn't get what I was saying, the US should look out for its own interests in staying on top and not being threatened, but something is wrong when the government in place is corrupt and is the only real winner in these wars (again read what I posted and the links).

I disagree that our government is corrupt. I have read your links and found lots of allegations and assertions and accusations and no proof.

 

[j07950]

the Nazi - Bush link is bullshit, and yes the press covers this too. I saw a docu about it on the history channel.

Bush was no Lindbergh and was not into the Nazis.


Yes the Bush family does and did business with the Bin Laden family.
Hardly a surprise as both being in the oil business. And Osama is at
least officially an outcast to his family.

Moore pipeline bullshit was quite a conjecture. Lets face it, Afghanistan
has always been a wild place, the British got their ass kicked, the Russians
and the US concentrates on Kabul and the hunt for Bin Laden and avoids
the local warlords and tribes. This is not a secure setup for an oil pipeline.

The fat fuck could have made a solid case against Bush based on incompetence instead he throws out this conspiracy bullshit.
For some thought about the pipeline story go here

http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20011015.html


Bush 1 did not invade Iraq, and he runs the family business. We can speculate
what the true reason for the attack on Iraq was or pick on of the many
the administration handed out but your conspiracy story is way weak.

Read Patrick J. Buchanan "Where the Right went Wrong" I think he nailed the true reason for the war and how it all came together.

And I could make a better case for an oligarchy then this shit. The whole friggin congress is out for themselves but the presidency because of the job identification is less influenced by money woes. Not to mention humans have a need for a legacy. Presidents are in the spotlight and less able to dodge
the press. Clinton these days can not even hide his friggin affairs. Kennedy
had a free pass, these days no president has.

While the press was initially after 9/11 a little bit in a cheerleading mode
this has to do with the rally around the flag syndrom. But I can assure
you that they are now quite critical of the President.

You should stop listening only to the smug European press. I lived in both places and they are not holier then the Americans.

PS: How old are you btw ?

I've also lived on both sides thank you...if they are so critical of the president then why was he re-elected? Knowing these things I wouldn't even think about voting for such a man. What do you mean by conspiracy bullshit? It's been proven, I don't see how you can dismiss this...(I'm talking about the links I posted,not necesarily the oil pipe lines, then again that can't really be proven can it...it's a matter of who you believe is saying the truth.

 

[j07950]

I disagree that our government is corrupt. I have read your links and found lots of allegations and assertions and accusations and no proof.

I didn't expect you to say "oh my God, I've seen the light", of course you're going to react this way, but then again you've been conditioned into believing everything your government says, after all you're american, why believe a foreigner.

 

[j07950]

Oh and we know Bush is incompetent, I was concentrating on corruption and money making schemes around wars...

 

[CSM]

I didn't expect you to say "oh my God, I've seen the light", of course you're going to react this way, but then again you've been conditioned into believing everything your government says, after all you're american, why believe a foreigner.

Yes, why should I believe a foriegner? Especially when when many foriegners have publicly stated that their greatest wish is to see me and mine DEAD.

Yes my "conditioning" runs very deep! How wonderful it is to see that many Europeans (apparently yourself included) have not been conditioned to believe anything except that the United States is BAD and are more than willing to help us poor, brainwashed Americans see the light. How altruistic.

 

[dilloduck]

Oh and we know Bush is incompetent, I was concentrating on corruption and money making schemes around wars...

you gonna fill us in on how old you are and where you live?

 

[CSM]

Oh and we know Bush is incompetent, I was concentrating on corruption and money making schemes around wars...

I disagree that Bush is incompetent. Who is "we"?

Yes let's talk about the corruption and money making schemes around wars. Let's start with those European countries who were making money despite the UN sanctions or the oil for food scandal. How about we talk about European arms sales to despotic countries and known terrorist states?

I bet a nickel to a donut your reply will be that the US is at fault.