French call for stronger EU to keep America in check

[Hobbit]

I was first alarmed by how stupid your comment was but then I saw you were only 20 years old and having myself lived in the US for 6 years I know how much young peole are ignorent...It's not your fault in a way, they only teach you about the history they want you to know. I did the whole junior high school and high school thing in NJ and it was a shock when I went back home. You guys are ignorent about what's out there, you believe everything you see on TV, and knowing that most of the media is controlled by your government or at least pressured into going it's way it's very scary. I've met a lot of americans who have gone around travelling the world and they now have such a different opinion, they are so much open minded and aware of what is really out there, and totally against the Bush policy, because that's all it is really. No one (from europe) hates the American people, we've got nothing against you people, I loved the people I met while living in the US, they are some of the nicest people I've ever met, all we disaprove of is the government in place. Clinton for instance was very much liked (appart from his "I did not have sexual intercourse blah blah, but then again he's a man like any other, he needs some love...). So don't think we've got a problem with america, we only do with the people who are governing it, because in the end, you have the right to be governed by your own people, only that those people in place today don't rightfully represent you. No hard feelings... Oh and if you wanted to attack France or any other country for that matter I'm sure you'd go through it as fast as you did with Irak right? How many soldiers and civilians have been killed since? Oh and is it over? Nevermind...
Wars are ugly, I think people will agree on that, think peace and stop being stupid and saying things such as "what are we gonna do with France after we roll through in 4 days?", that is insulting to the people who fought for freedom in europe from 1914-1945...and insulting to the people (among them French) who helped americans gain independance from Great Britain in 1776...


In responce of: ("Come one Kentucky what are we gonna do with France after we roll through in 4 days? Also if this does leed to a confertation I believe we would win. Also with the help of the British we would stomp through europe. You know whats more disturbing is, cause they don't like our policies they don't like us. Also if they want a fight I can think of many Americans who will give em' one hell of one. They should look at our record so far, only one we retreated from(for political puposes), and another one techniclly never lost nor won still going on. All the others we won so I glady so don't do it europe we don't want to hurt you")

You like us but hate our government? That doesn't wash. We elected this government and the majority of us will back it up. I'm also quite insulted that you think we're so ignorant and willing to be led like sheep by television. If that were true, we'd love France and hate Bush or have you seen a single piece of news since 2000? I make sure I'm informed. I support Bush and the war, especially after actually meeting some of the people affected by it. France opposes us because it's the thing to do, and if this hostility keeps going down this road, we could find ourselves in another world war. Also, what are we supposed to think about how France feels about us when many French citizens are in Iraq fighting for Zarqawi? So you can take your Euro arrogance, your condecending attitude, and your opinion that those of us in the red states are just ignorant and shove it up your colon, because I don't wanna hear it.

 

[nosarcasm]

Europe's internal politics concerning the EU are driven by a French desire for domination, A German desire for cooperation within the framework of the EU
and the believe that it is in the best German interest to have a strong alliance with France. Why is that. As a result of WW1 and WW2 most German scholars assume that the rivalry for the domination of mainland Europe led to the (for Germany) disastrous outcome. The US was the only one major power
that after WW1 tried to arrange a peace among equals that was rejected by the French. After WW2 the communist threat made it important for the US to support Western Germany and the occupation and the generous Care packages convinced the Germans that the US is willing to accept them as an ally. (Thanks for those who donated care packages at a time when Germans
were universally hated) Now Germany is a very secular state with a (imo) too peace loving population. There is a desire for peace at all costs and a natural
rejection of all military solutions to conflicts. Thats why Schroeder and his leftwing coalation were able to win reelection by rejecting the Iraq war.

During the genocide in former Yugoslavia the same leftwing parties argued
against intervening because the UN did not approve first. Even the conservatives then in power were against it. A conservative minister resigned
and put out ads on tv about the war in Yugoslavia that changed the publics
reluctance. It showed a private airliner with tourists heading for vacation.
Then it brakes through the clouds and a military transport is shown with
gunfire from the ground and pictures of slaughtered civilians. Then the
historic anti guerillia war against Yugoslav partisans did not work anymore
as a reason not to intervene in Yugoslavia. The conflict also proved that
without the US miliary the EU lacks the power to threaten dictators even
within Europe.

The Iraq war and the European publics rejection led to a decline in the relationship across the atlantic. For the German public (shamefully) it was too close to an imperial war. They must have forgot the pictures that I saw on German TV in the 80's of murdered Kurdish women and children, slaughtered
with chemical weapons. The white residue next to the mouth while they are laying out their in the street made it obvious.

Now the US administration made a lot of mistakes that did not help.
First Rumsfeld Old Europe remark was offending national pride and hardened
positions. The multiple reasons for the war in Iraq where not looking honest either.

A simple, we have to take him out for humanitarian reason from the beginning and the democratization argument might still have won the day.

During the initial war the US played divide and conquer by pressuring some EU states for support. While it had some success in terms of real troops on the ground only the traditional allies Netherlands, Poland and UK were in + the Spanish. With the loss of Spain due to elections the US has created a stronger EU identity.

Still within the EU there are other fights mostly about trade and money.

The new Eastern EU states have a vital interest in Germany, because of its
geographic position it is the closest major economy that has access to their markets.

Within the EU, France,Germany and the UK have some meetings where
the UK and its allies reprents more a market economy approach while
France & Germany are more socialistic orientated. In the case of Germany that can change once the conservatives get back in power.

In Germany there is strong resentment against immigration and especially
against Muslims after 9/11. Germany was in the 30 years war 1618-48
the place for the showdown between protestants and Catholics. After
the peace of westphalia it was agreed upon to keep religion out of politics.
This is one factor in the irrational hate vs Bush. While in Germany religion
is taught at school (protestant,Catholic, Philosophy for the rest) politicans
hardly even mention god or faith in politics. Thats one of the reasons why
Bush rubs many people the wrong way.

France is a very secular country with aspirations to be the Grand nation.
They use anti americanism to stroke their own ego. Within the EU they fight
for money for their farmers. By leading the EU they hope to contain German power and aspirations.

The French poster here has some delusions about the grandeur of their army.
My cousin served with the German army in Bosnia and he said he was ashamed how cheap their equipment was in comparison to the US troops.

When you look on how much money the different nations put in their military then you know Europe is trailing pretty badly. In term of economics the EU
and US are about on par. Because of the international trade it is unfortunate
that at the moment their is the pissing contest going on. But in the end
Islamic extremist are the enemy and all our multinationals are invested
both in the US and EU. Time to realize that and in the next crisis unite
to make Bin Laden and Company pay.

But I am a minority currently.

Not to mention the problems many Germans have with the subject of
nationalism and national pride. Another time I d go into that.

 

[freeandfun1]

Europe's internal politics concerning the EU are driven by a French desire for domination, A German desire for cooperation within the framework of the EU
and the believe that it is in the best German interest to have a strong alliance with France. Why is that. As a result of WW1 and WW2 most German scholars assume that the rivalry for the domination of mainland Europe led to the (for Germany) disastrous outcome. The US was the only one major power
that after WW1 tried to arrange a peace among equals that was rejected by the French. After WW2 the communist threat made it important for the US to support Western Germany and the occupation and the generous Care packages convinced the Germans that the US is willing to accept them as an ally. (Thanks for those who donated care packages at a time when Germans
were universally hated) Now Germany is a very secular state with a (imo) too peace loving population. There is a desire for peace at all costs and a natural
rejection of all military solutions to conflicts. Thats why Schroeder and his leftwing coalation were able to win reelection by rejecting the Iraq war.

During the genocide in former Yugoslavia the same leftwing parties argued
against intervening because the UN did not approve first. Even the conservatives then in power were against it. A conservative minister resigned
and put out ads on tv about the war in Yugoslavia that changed the publics
reluctance. It showed a private airliner with tourists heading for vacation.
Then it brakes through the clouds and a military transport is shown with
gunfire from the ground and pictures of slaughtered civilians. Then the
historic anti guerillia war against Yugoslav partisans did not work anymore
as a reason not to intervene in Yugoslavia. The conflict also proved that
without the US miliary the EU lacks the power to threaten dictators even
within Europe.

The Iraq war and the European publics rejection led to a decline in the relationship across the atlantic. For the German public (shamefully) it was too close to an imperial war. They must have forgot the pictures that I saw on German TV in the 80's of murdered Kurdish women and children, slaughtered
with chemical weapons. The white residue next to the mouth while they are laying out their in the street made it obvious.

Now the US administration made a lot of mistakes that did not help.
First Rumsfeld Old Europe remark was offending national pride and hardened
positions. The multiple reasons for the war in Iraq where not looking honest either.

A simple, we have to take him out for humanitarian reason from the beginning and the democratization argument might still have won the day.

During the initial war the US played divide and conquer by pressuring some EU states for support. While it had some success in terms of real troops on the ground only the traditional allies Netherlands, Poland and UK were in + the Spanish. With the loss of Spain due to elections the US has created a stronger EU identity.

Still within the EU there are other fights mostly about trade and money.

The new Eastern EU states have a vital interest in Germany, because of its
geographic position it is the closest major economy that has access to their markets.

Within the EU, France,Germany and the UK have some meetings where
the UK and its allies reprents more a market economy approach while
France & Germany are more socialistic orientated. In the case of Germany that can change once the conservatives get back in power.

In Germany there is strong resentment against immigration and especially
against Muslims after 9/11. Germany was in the 30 years war 1618-48
the place for the showdown between protestants and Catholics. After
the peace of westphalia it was agreed upon to keep religion out of politics.
This is one factor in the irrational hate vs Bush. While in Germany religion
is taught at school (protestant,Catholic, Philosophy for the rest) politicans
hardly even mention god or faith in politics. Thats one of the reasons why
Bush rubs many people the wrong way.

France is a very secular country with aspirations to be the Grand nation.
They use anti americanism to stroke their own ego. Within the EU they fight
for money for their farmers. By leading the EU they hope to contain German power and aspirations.

The French poster here has some delusions about the grandeur of their army.
My cousin served with the German army in Bosnia and he said he was ashamed how cheap their equipment was in comparison to the US troops.

When you look on how much money the different nations put in their military then you know Europe is trailing pretty badly. In term of economics the EU
and US are about on par. Because of the international trade it is unfortunate
that at the moment their is the pissing contest going on. But in the end
Islamic extremist are the enemy and all our multinationals are invested
both in the US and EU. Time to realize that and in the next crisis unite
to make Bin Laden and Company pay.

But I am a minority currently.

Not to mention the problems many Germans have with the subject of
nationalism and national pride. Another time I d go into that.

nice summation of things! i think you have nailed it.

 

[padisha emperor]

freeandfun,1 why, when someboy doesn't think like you, do you call him IGNORANT ?

I agree with j07950's post.

And you can like the US people and dislike his government. I do that.

All the people who vote for Bush didn't necessary think exactly like him.
Example : in Germany or France, the lastelections, the extrem-right political parties did quite good results. But it doesn't mean that the voters are fascists and racists. Most of them where only hopeless, and thought that with them, maybe the things would change.
Look at Chirac's re-election : with 80%....But not 80% are behind him. It was to stop Le Pen's advance.
Maybe some americans don't agree with siome sides of Bush policy, but are affraid by terrorism....and then they vote for Bush.


So, it is possible, you can hate a government, and like the inhabitants of this country.

 

[dilloduck]

freeandfun,1 why, when someboy doesn't think like you, do you call him IGNORANT ?

I agree with j07950's post.

And you can like the US people and dislike his government. I do that.

All the people who vote for Bush didn't necessary think exactly like him.
Example : in Germany or France, the lastelections, the extrem-right political parties did quite good results. But it doesn't mean that the voters are fascists and racists. Most of them where only hopeless, and thought that with them, maybe the things would change.
Look at Chirac's re-election : with 80%....But not 80% are behind him. It was to stop Le Pen's advance.
Maybe some americans don't agree with siome sides of Bush policy, but are affraid by terrorism....and then they vote for Bush.


So, it is possible, you can hate a government, and like the inhabitants of this country.

garbage ,Dish-----you like the liberal politics of some American people--not the people themselves.

 

[freeandfun1]

freeandfun,1 why, when someboy doesn't think like you, do you call him IGNORANT ?

I agree with j07950's post.

And you can like the US people and dislike his government. I do that.

All the people who vote for Bush didn't necessary think exactly like him.
Example : in Germany or France, the lastelections, the extrem-right political parties did quite good results. But it doesn't mean that the voters are fascists and racists. Most of them where only hopeless, and thought that with them, maybe the things would change.
Look at Chirac's re-election : with 80%....But not 80% are behind him. It was to stop Le Pen's advance.
Maybe some americans don't agree with siome sides of Bush policy, but are affraid by terrorism....and then they vote for Bush.


So, it is possible, you can hate a government, and like the inhabitants of this country.

Perhaps it was because he is making IGNORANT ASSUMPTIONS.

Also, it doesn't help that he can't spell what he is trying to call somebody. That does not reflect well upon him and it actually shows that he is more IGNORANT than those he is assailing.

 

[TheEnemyWithin]

And you can like the US people and dislike his government. I do that.

Yeah but don't expect us to give a rat's behind about how the French think we should run our country. I see the Frenchie's dissaproval as a sign that we are doing quite well. :teeth:

All the people who vote for Bush didn't necessary think exactly like him.

Well, what did you expect? Are we all G-Dub clones or something??

Maybe some americans don't agree with siome sides of Bush policy, but are affraid by terrorism....and then they vote for Bush.

Was there a single terrorist attack on us in 2004? No there was not. He mustn't be doing too incredibly bad.

 

[Said1]

. :clap1:

Ha,ha, I kill me!

 

[j07950]

I agree with a lot of what all of you guys are saying; My calling some of you ignorant (yes ignorant and not ignorent, then again I'm not a native english speaker, I'd like to see you speak another language) has to do with some of the stupid comments being said, like rolling over france in 4 days...how stupid is that. All it's saying is that you can't get enough of fighting. Plus, even if your equipment is much beter and you've got such a huge army (which I agree with) you still haven't gotten anywhere in Irak. And the french people you say are fighting among rebels in Irak are extremists and muslim to begin with, you can't say they reprensent us, otherwise you could say that the brits are as guilty as we are, as most of the rebels involved in al qaeda went through the UK at some point...so that's another stupid comment.
Not going along with the US is not trying to challenge them no matter what. I don't remember France being so hostile towards the US when Clinton was in power. I don't remember being hostile to intervening in yougoslavia, where EU troops are still operating (among them the french, and few if no US troops). If we can't disagree with what the US is doing then where does this bring us. That would mean that the US government could go on about doing whatever they want, where would be world stability.
I don't know whats wrong with disagreeing on attacking a country without UN approval nor the support of multilateral forces, saying they have weapons of mass destruction when none have been found, saying they're a threat when the army is almost none existant. If Saddam Hussein wasn't ousted after the golf war then why now, what for?
What happened to the idea of the Sovereign state brought on by the treaty of Westphalia? You can't attack another state with no real good reason, obviously the UN didn't think their was one otherwise it would have backed up the US. We chose not to, just like the UN and many many other countries...how does this make us an enemy?
No one is telling you how to run your country, only that on the world stage you should count with other nations from europe, asia etc... Because you can't decide on your own and for the wrong reasons. Because what were the real reasons? No one really knows. What we do know is that this war boosted your economy, because of all the money put into building weapons etc... creating jobs... then giving the reconstrution contracts to US companies (not crying about not having gotten any, don't really care personaly, just saying its funny how the biggest contracts were given to US companies), also how the oil pits have more soldiers around them than most cities in irak.
Then you wounder why the US is present in Irak and not in places like Darfur (Ethnic cleansing), in tchetchnya, Eastern Congo, Zimbabwe and many other places where people are being killed either by their own government or by rebel groups. Where is the US if it is to be a world leader-cop without the support or opinion of other nations???
Maybee it's because there is nothing interesting in those countries. Maybee that sending money (which in most cases never actually reaches destination) makes them feel less guilty. I'm not saying that the US is the only at fault, but I'm saying if Irak then why not all these other places where more people have been killed than in irak?


PS: I'm sure most of you aren't ignorant, I was aiming young people (talking primarily to that 20 year old I replied to, did you read?) don't take things so personaly...Most of you guys are are probably over 30 and have more experience than even I have, but think a bit more about what you say, and think as a citizen of the world and not only as an american, it's world peace that is at risk, not just the United State's...

 

[5stringJeff]

PS: I'm sure most of you aren't ignorant, I was aiming young people (talking primarily to that 20 year old I replied to, did you read?) don't take things so personaly...Most of you guys are are probably over 30 and have more experience than even I have, but think a bit more about what you say, and think as a citizen of the world and not only as an american, it's world peace that is at risk, not just the United State's...

And here is where the paradigm shifts. You see, we don't consider ourselves "citizens of the world" here. We consider ourselves Americans first, and then usually as a citizen of our state (I am a native Texan, for example). The whole concept of "world citizenship" is about as foreign to us as escargot and Wang Chung.

And by the way, I'm only 28.

 

[j07950]

That just highlights your individualist state...it's such a shame you can't look beyond the US and think more of the world...this is probably why the US never agreed to sign the kyoto treaty...just too selfish...can't quiet give a damn about the rest of the world as long as it's economy is doing fine...

Ps: 28? not too bad...

 

[Said1]

That just highlights your individualist state...it's such a shame you can't look beyond the US and think more of the world...this is probably why the US never agreed to sign the kyoto treaty...just too selfish...can't quiet give a damn about the rest of the world as long as it's economy is doing fine...

I REALLY think you missed his point, but I'll let Jeff speak for himself.

 

[j07950]

I got his point...which makes sence because I know how patriotic americans are, but I'm saying look beyond that otherwise you'll miss what's really at stake...

 

[Said1]

I got his point...

No you didn't get his point, which is probably why you mentioned Kyoto. BTW, how does Kyoto coincide with Jeff's post?

 

[freeandfun1]

fruthermore, don't you think all the aid we give - government and private - to the world is an indication that we understand that we are PART of a world community? And no European, Asian, etc. should be preaching to us about nationalism. Your nationalism has caused a lot of wars which we have had to bail you out of. We are happy and content where we are and we really don't need to be part of your group. We have our own homeland.

And by the way, I am American by birth, but Texan by the Grace of God!

 

[j07950]

I was highlighting the point that thinking of yourself as a texan or an american and not as a citizen of the world is the wrong way to go...I am aware of the whole patriotic thing, which is great but you can't stop there... the Kyoto treaty is there only as an example to show that americans (the government for that matter as I'm sure the people wouldn't think signing on would be such a bad thing) think of themselves first and not of the rest of the world.

 

[j07950]

fruthermore, don't you think all the aid we give - government and private - to the world is an indication that we understand that we are PART of a world community? And no European, Asian, etc. should be preaching to us about nationalism. Your nationalism has caused a lot of wars which we have had to bail you out of. We are happy and content where we are and we really don't need to be part of your group. We have our own homeland.

And by the way, I am American by birth, but Texan by the Grace of God!

How does financial aid make you part of a world community when you don't listen to what other countries have to say... you act as individualists... Don't talk about wars you've bailed us out of...how old is your country's history??? really!!! And if it wasn't for France you'd be british...so don't talk about countries bailing out other countries...you did the right thing and so did we, it was for world peace so don't hold us accountable for it...we don't.
Having your own homeland is fine but you're still part of this world...you can't flee.

 

[Said1]

I was highlighting the point that thinking of yourself as a texan or an american and not as a citizen of the world is the wrong way to go...I am aware of the whole patriotic thing, which is great but you can't stop there... the Kyoto treaty is there only as an example to show that americans (the government for that matter as I'm sure the people wouldn't think signing on would be such a bad thing) think of themselves first and not of the rest of the world.

That's a pretty shitty thing to say. Now I don't feel so bad about calling you an idiot, which is exactly what you are.

 

[Said1]

Having your own homeland is fine but you're still part of this world...you can't flee.

:rotflmao: :rotflmao:

 

[j07950]

How is that stupid...?
I'm aware Americans, as people, are very generous, I lived in NJ 6 years so I know. But this government under Bush is after everything it can get (the Bush family is as corrupt as it can be, don't ask me to say how just yet, got to go get some sleep, I will tomorrow if you want). I don't know what is so stupid about thinking of the world instead of looking out only for US interests...you probably think the kyoto treaty is stupid right?