General Giap, Vietnam's master guerilla, dies aged 102

[bravoactual]

............^^^ Your comparison to Hitler's invasions is idiotic.

General Giap was born when Vietnam was just one country.

It was the european colonial powers after WWII which artificially divided Vietnam into a North and South.

As a Vietnamese nationalist General Giap wanted Vietnam restored back to a single country as it was before colonialism.

Any freedom loving American should understand General Giap's patriotic motives........

The "American War" as it was called in Viet Nam was a War of Reunifaction. Just like the "French War" was a war of Reunifaction.

Ho Chi Minn worked for and with the the American O.S.S. (Office of Strategic Services) and against the Japanese Occupation of Viet Nam during World War II. Ho was a Nationalist, and became a Communist by Convenience when the U.S. and France refused to support a united Viet Nam.

For me, as a Veteran of the Viet Nam War it has always been more than ironic that Republicans who railed against Bill Clinton for his Anti-Viet Nam War stance, embraced bush43 who deserted his Nationals Guard Unit and his choice for Vice President Dick Cheney who was in fact a Draft Dodger.

These same Conservatives are currently name calling General Giap, a man with no formal Military Training who succeeded to defeat two modern armies.

 

[Sunni Man]

No need to read any book about it.

US Army 1970-71


I was there '69-'70 and I agree that what you think you know is mostly incorrect.

True, I was 19 and didn't have a clue about what I was involved in. It was like being a leaf in a whirlwind. Basically, all I wanted to do was survive and make it home in 1 piece.

Now 40+ years later, I have the luxury of being able to step back and look at the big picture. And the picture isn't pretty on either side.

Although, the Vietnamese for all their sacrifice and blood have their own country and self determination.

And for the life of me, I still can't think of 1 single thing we accomplished by being there?? ..

 

[Old Rocks]

Regardless of what side he was on....the guy was one hell of a General

debatable.

Dienbenphu- brilliant strategy.

Tet Offensive. Not so much.

agreed. Its also hard to quantify his military career and not take into account the political considerations which drove him to fight battles he knew he could not win tactically.

Dien Bien Phu was his finest hour; the French never thought he'd invest them in any strength that could break them. It was a triumph of will, thats where the french wanted to give battle and he bent every back and drove a build up of his manpower that was miraculous, and whats more with such AA and Artillery in such strength that the French arty commander committed suicide.

To be fair, Dien Bien Phu was the perfect defensive death trap, to small for open maneuver, to large for close defense.
Oh and a French commander thereafter in an interview years after dissed his own forces saying;” if I had had 10.000 SS troops we’d have held out”..what a slap in the face. All things considered the French and their allies among the Viets and Thais fought very well, the Laotians, not so much.

Giap also deserves immense military credit for the best round of ambushes and true high intensity guerilla management of grand tactics by completely wiping out the frenchs best mobile battle grp- Groupement Mobile No. 100, in a series of battles over 5 days at Mang yang Pass…( Bernard Falls book- Street Without Joy amongst laregr points, follows the trials, travels of the grp that year, its excellent).

As for the political dimension, he abandoned by and large the ‘grab them by their belt buckle’ strategy, he knew deep down defeating us via closing in thru mass arty and air power would dissipate his forces to no good long term gain, so he would choose the time and places very much more carefully and fade away when it suited him.

He went ahead with Tet because he was ordered too and Ho felt that there would be, in the face of mass attacks an uprising amongst the south that would help them and to sway opinion here at home, hard to argue with that, uprising never materialized but the home front got the message.

A very good analysis. Basically, Giap realized what General Washington did. That he did not have to win, he just needed to prevent defeat. As with Great Britian, the cost of the war eventually was too much for us, and the potential for gain from it, all too little.

Had more Americans known the history of Vietnam, they would have realized that anyone the general populace thought was a foriegn occupier would eventually be bled to death. It mattered not what our thoughts or intentions were, but how the Vietnamese percieved us.

 

[editec]

I note the DOMINOS have not fallen...

Everything the American people were told about why we fought the Viet Nam war was a lie.

That misadventure in Asia is a moral stain on this nation's history.

 

[rightwinger]

debatable.

Dienbenphu- brilliant strategy.

Tet Offensive. Not so much.

agreed. Its also hard to quantify his military career and not take into account the political considerations which drove him to fight battles he knew he could not win tactically.

Dien Bien Phu was his finest hour; the French never thought he'd invest them in any strength that could break them. It was a triumph of will, thats where the french wanted to give battle and he bent every back and drove a build up of his manpower that was miraculous, and whats more with such AA and Artillery in such strength that the French arty commander committed suicide.

To be fair, Dien Bien Phu was the perfect defensive death trap, to small for open maneuver, to large for close defense.
Oh and a French commander thereafter in an interview years after dissed his own forces saying;” if I had had 10.000 SS troops we’d have held out”..what a slap in the face. All things considered the French and their allies among the Viets and Thais fought very well, the Laotians, not so much.

Giap also deserves immense military credit for the best round of ambushes and true high intensity guerilla management of grand tactics by completely wiping out the frenchs best mobile battle grp- Groupement Mobile No. 100, in a series of battles over 5 days at Mang yang Pass…( Bernard Falls book- Street Without Joy amongst laregr points, follows the trials, travels of the grp that year, its excellent).

As for the political dimension, he abandoned by and large the ‘grab them by their belt buckle’ strategy, he knew deep down defeating us via closing in thru mass arty and air power would dissipate his forces to no good long term gain, so he would choose the time and places very much more carefully and fade away when it suited him.

He went ahead with Tet because he was ordered too and Ho felt that there would be, in the face of mass attacks an uprising amongst the south that would help them and to sway opinion here at home, hard to argue with that, uprising never materialized but the home front got the message.

A very good analysis. Basically, Giap realized what General Washington did. That he did not have to win, he just needed to prevent defeat. As with Great Britian, the cost of the war eventually was too much for us, and the potential for gain from it, all too little.

Had more Americans known the history of Vietnam, they would have realized that anyone the general populace thought was a foriegn occupier would eventually be bled to death. It mattered not what our thoughts or intentions were, but how the Vietnamese percieved us.

The US fought Vietnam as an extension of the Cold War....they were fighting a Civil War
Cost us over 60,000 lives

 

[Moonglow]

VFW did nothing for returning vets. They were long hairs, hippies, pot smokers who didn't fit in with the crew cut, flag waving VFW

The numbers of Vietnam vets in the VFW during the 60s and 70s was pathetically low. They were not concerned with welcoming a group of vets that they did not respect

The hippies spitting on vets was a myth. There are Zero stories at the time of vets being spat upon

Viet Vets "were longhairs"? Here's a little tip for old leftist gasbags like you, fool. There were no longhairs in the RVN....lice, ticks, ringworm, etc. don't make for a happy GI. Did some grow their hair long back in civilian life? Sure, but those types were not "longhairs" like you gutless hippies and they weren't the type to hang out at VFW halls.

You've never been in a VFW hall, or the US Military, certainly not in Vietnam. Yet you're more than happy to continue spewing your cartoon image of returning Viet Vets as PTSDed drug addicts, shunned by WW2 Vets, and about to go "postal" if a car backfired, like you have any hint what the deal was.

We pity you yellow draft-dodgers. My Dad told my brother Joe and me that the choice was ours but no man in our family history had ever avoided serving in the war of his generation. From the border battles in 1830's frontier Texas, to Iraq, we volunteered to fight, not file clerk, or fix jeeps in a motor pool, or play a fucking trombone in a band. No no. Some of us got back home, some of us did not. You missed your war, boy. And no amount of mudslinging, insulting, excuse-making, or praising our enemies can change that. You are the bottom of the barrel.

My grandfather was in the VFW (WWII). I used to go there with him in the late 70s to mid 80s. I used to sit and drink with them, they were WWII and Korean vets....nice bunch of guys. But there were only a handful of Vietnam vets when there should have been dozens
I also witnessed many a Memorial Day Parade back then and there were very few VietNam vets
VFW had its chance and blew it with Vietnam vets. It killed the organization.

They didn't like me coming around with my long hair. None of my relatives that served in Nam went there either.

 

[rightwinger]

Viet Vets "were longhairs"? Here's a little tip for old leftist gasbags like you, fool. There were no longhairs in the RVN....lice, ticks, ringworm, etc. don't make for a happy GI. Did some grow their hair long back in civilian life? Sure, but those types were not "longhairs" like you gutless hippies and they weren't the type to hang out at VFW halls.

You've never been in a VFW hall, or the US Military, certainly not in Vietnam. Yet you're more than happy to continue spewing your cartoon image of returning Viet Vets as PTSDed drug addicts, shunned by WW2 Vets, and about to go "postal" if a car backfired, like you have any hint what the deal was.

We pity you yellow draft-dodgers. My Dad told my brother Joe and me that the choice was ours but no man in our family history had ever avoided serving in the war of his generation. From the border battles in 1830's frontier Texas, to Iraq, we volunteered to fight, not file clerk, or fix jeeps in a motor pool, or play a fucking trombone in a band. No no. Some of us got back home, some of us did not. You missed your war, boy. And no amount of mudslinging, insulting, excuse-making, or praising our enemies can change that. You are the bottom of the barrel.

My grandfather was in the VFW (WWII). I used to go there with him in the late 70s to mid 80s. I used to sit and drink with them, they were WWII and Korean vets....nice bunch of guys. But there were only a handful of Vietnam vets when there should have been dozens
I also witnessed many a Memorial Day Parade back then and there were very few VietNam vets
VFW had its chance and blew it with Vietnam vets. It killed the organization.

They didn't like me coming around with my long hair. None of my relatives that served in Nam went there either.

Its not a condemnation of Vietnam vets.

The American Legion and VFW could have done a much better job of helping VietNam vets who were struggling after they returned from the war. While they didn't officially exclude them, they did almost nothing to encourage them to join. That decision is killing both organizations
More than hippies "spitting" on vets, it was mainstream America who ignored them to the point where Vietnam Vets were hesitant to admit that they had served

 

[BullKurtz]

My grandfather was in the VFW (WWII). I used to go there with him in the late 70s to mid 80s. I used to sit and drink with them, they were WWII and Korean vets....nice bunch of guys. But there were only a handful of Vietnam vets when there should have been dozens
I also witnessed many a Memorial Day Parade back then and there were very few VietNam vets
VFW had its chance and blew it with Vietnam vets. It killed the organization.

They didn't like me coming around with my long hair. None of my relatives that served in Nam went there either.

Its not a condemnation of Vietnam vets.

The American Legion and VFW could have done a much better job of helping VietNam vets who were struggling after they returned from the war. While they didn't officially exclude them, they did almost nothing to encourage them to join. That decision is killing both organizations
More than hippies "spitting" on vets, it was mainstream America who ignored them to the point where Vietnam Vets were hesitant to admit that they had served

Backpeddling from your former claims when proven a liar, now you're serving up another dish of bullshit. You might like to think Viet Vets "were hesitant to admit they served" but there is no basis in fact anybody should believe that. Only about 20% of us Viet Vets ever saw action. Just like all the other wars in our nation's history, the vast majority of trigger-pullers in the RVN came home, adjusted to a new culture, got married, had kids, and lived good lives. The support units were there and some were in danger, but for the most part they just stole our cold beer and cookies from home, and then claimed they were "truamatized" by loud noises (in the distance). Your cartoon version of the Viet Vet is stupid, callous, and a lie as you well know.

 

[BullKurtz]

They didn't like me coming around with my long hair. None of my relatives that served in Nam went there either.

Maybe, but nobody wanted you coming around before you had woman hair so what?

 

[rightwinger]

They didn't like me coming around with my long hair. None of my relatives that served in Nam went there either.

Its not a condemnation of Vietnam vets.

The American Legion and VFW could have done a much better job of helping VietNam vets who were struggling after they returned from the war. While they didn't officially exclude them, they did almost nothing to encourage them to join. That decision is killing both organizations
More than hippies "spitting" on vets, it was mainstream America who ignored them to the point where Vietnam Vets were hesitant to admit that they had served

Backpeddling from your former claims when proven a liar, now you're serving up another dish of bullshit. You might like to think Viet Vets "were hesitant to admit they served" but there is no basis in fact anybody should believe that. Only about 20% of us Viet Vets ever saw action. Just like all the other wars in our nation's history, the vast majority of trigger-pullers in the RVN came home, adjusted to a new culture, got married, had kids, and lived good lives. The support units were there and some were in danger, but for the most part they just stole our cold beer and cookies from home, and then claimed they were "truamatized" by loud noises (in the distance). Your cartoon version of the Viet Vet is stupid, callous, and a lie as you well know.

Lighten up Francis

Support units count the same as combat units. They are still veterans

VietNam Vets got a raw deal. But it was not from "hippies" spitting on them. It was veterans groups like the American Legion and VFW, it was middle class America, it was employers and it was the media
Nobody glorified the VietNam Vet or his service. After all....they didn't win

 

[BullKurtz]

Its not a condemnation of Vietnam vets.

The American Legion and VFW could have done a much better job of helping VietNam vets who were struggling after they returned from the war. While they didn't officially exclude them, they did almost nothing to encourage them to join. That decision is killing both organizations
More than hippies "spitting" on vets, it was mainstream America who ignored them to the point where Vietnam Vets were hesitant to admit that they had served

Backpeddling from your former claims when proven a liar, now you're serving up another dish of bullshit. You might like to think Viet Vets "were hesitant to admit they served" but there is no basis in fact anybody should believe that. Only about 20% of us Viet Vets ever saw action. Just like all the other wars in our nation's history, the vast majority of trigger-pullers in the RVN came home, adjusted to a new culture, got married, had kids, and lived good lives. The support units were there and some were in danger, but for the most part they just stole our cold beer and cookies from home, and then claimed they were "truamatized" by loud noises (in the distance). Your cartoon version of the Viet Vet is stupid, callous, and a lie as you well know.

Lighten up Francis

Support units count the same as combat units. They are still veterans

VietNam Vets got a raw deal. But it was not from "hippies" spitting on them. It was veterans groups like the American Legion and VFW, it was middle class America, it was employers and it was the media
Nobody glorified the VietNam Vet or his service. After all....they didn't win

More BULLSHIT....Yeah, "they" are Viet Vets too, but if you were REMF without a CIB, you weren't one of us. And who says we didn't win? Walter Cronkite who was too fucking old to go report on firefights so he queered the whole effort by saying we "LOST TET"? CBS turned the American public against their own fighing men and glorified the enemy. What other nation has that ever happened in? Why? Because boys like you had no stomach for the fight, felt no obligation to the nation you grew up free in, while others stood the wall while you slept off your reefer buzz. I was gone in late '68 and don't know or care what happened after us. We had the fucker WON is all I know. Then the shit-for-brains draftees showed up in droves, were shit soldiers, died useless shit deaths because of shit ticket-punch officers who didn't give a rat's ass about them. That's your cartoon mister, not mine, not those of us who believed in saving the Viet people from the communist butchers and a cause I still believe was right and just to this day. We tried.

 

[rightwinger]

Backpeddling from your former claims when proven a liar, now you're serving up another dish of bullshit. You might like to think Viet Vets "were hesitant to admit they served" but there is no basis in fact anybody should believe that. Only about 20% of us Viet Vets ever saw action. Just like all the other wars in our nation's history, the vast majority of trigger-pullers in the RVN came home, adjusted to a new culture, got married, had kids, and lived good lives. The support units were there and some were in danger, but for the most part they just stole our cold beer and cookies from home, and then claimed they were "truamatized" by loud noises (in the distance). Your cartoon version of the Viet Vet is stupid, callous, and a lie as you well know.

Lighten up Francis

Support units count the same as combat units. They are still veterans

VietNam Vets got a raw deal. But it was not from "hippies" spitting on them. It was veterans groups like the American Legion and VFW, it was middle class America, it was employers and it was the media
Nobody glorified the VietNam Vet or his service. After all....they didn't win

More BULLSHIT....Yeah, "they" are Viet Vets too, but if you were REMF without a CIB, you weren't one of us. And who says we didn't win? Walter Cronkite who was too fucking old to go report on firefights so he queered the whole effort by saying we "LOST TET"? CBS turned the American public against their own fighing men and glorified the enemy. What other nation has that ever happened in? Why? Because boys like you had no stomach for the fight, felt no obligation to the nation you grew up free in, while others stood the wall while you slept off your reefer buzz. I was gone in late '68 and don't know or care what happened after us. We had the fucker WON is all I know. Then the shit-for-brains draftees showed up in droves, were shit soldiers, died useless shit deaths because of shit ticket-punch officers who didn't give a rat's ass about them. That's your cartoon mister, not mine, not those of us who believed in saving the Viet people from the communist butchers and a cause I still believe was right and just to this day. We tried.

Yes Mr McNamara

If we only had one hundred thousand more troops we could have won the thing. Victory is just around the corner....we only need a few more troops

 

[Camp]

Backpeddling from your former claims when proven a liar, now you're serving up another dish of bullshit. You might like to think Viet Vets "were hesitant to admit they served" but there is no basis in fact anybody should believe that. Only about 20% of us Viet Vets ever saw action. Just like all the other wars in our nation's history, the vast majority of trigger-pullers in the RVN came home, adjusted to a new culture, got married, had kids, and lived good lives. The support units were there and some were in danger, but for the most part they just stole our cold beer and cookies from home, and then claimed they were "truamatized" by loud noises (in the distance). Your cartoon version of the Viet Vet is stupid, callous, and a lie as you well know.

Lighten up Francis

Support units count the same as combat units. They are still veterans

VietNam Vets got a raw deal. But it was not from "hippies" spitting on them. It was veterans groups like the American Legion and VFW, it was middle class America, it was employers and it was the media
Nobody glorified the VietNam Vet or his service. After all....they didn't win

More BULLSHIT....Yeah, "they" are Viet Vets too, but if you were REMF without a CIB, you weren't one of us. And who says we didn't win? Walter Cronkite who was too fucking old to go report on firefights so he queered the whole effort by saying we "LOST TET"? CBS turned the American public against their own fighing men and glorified the enemy. What other nation has that ever happened in? Why? Because boys like you had no stomach for the fight, felt no obligation to the nation you grew up free in, while others stood the wall while you slept off your reefer buzz. I was gone in late '68 and don't know or care what happened after us. We had the fucker WON is all I know. Then the shit-for-brains draftees showed up in droves, were shit soldiers, died useless shit deaths because of shit ticket-punch officers who didn't give a rat's ass about them. That's your cartoon mister, not mine, not those of us who believed in saving the Viet people from the communist butchers and a cause I still believe was right and just to this day. We tried.

What is wrong with you. I was almost thinking that finaly I read some of your post I could agree with. I thought on this subject, Vietnam, you were a good person to carry the flag. But in this post you just did what you have been criticizing others of doing. You just disparaged all the veterans that followed you. According to you, everyone who followed after you are shit for brain loosers, because according to you, you and those who served with you had won the war and it was lost by those that followed. So according to you the asshole anti war protesters were wrong while you were in country, but had reason to protest once you returned home.

 

[Sunni Man]

We had the fucker WON is all I know. Then the shit-for-brains draftees showed up in droves, were shit soldiers, died useless shit deaths because of shit ticket-punch officers who didn't give a rat's ass about them.

Go fuck yourself dickweed.

Me and my high school friend Clark got drafted on the same day in April of 70

He was killed when FB Mary Ann had 50 sappers plus NVA breach the wire.

Clark's name is on the "Wall" because of that firefight.

And then comes along some piece of crap like you thumping his chicken hawk chest and disrespecting a KIA decorated U.S. soldier.

You're a maggot of the 1st degree and a pathetic disgrace all veterans. .

 

[BullKurtz]

We had the fucker WON is all I know. Then the shit-for-brains draftees showed up in droves, were shit soldiers, died useless shit deaths because of shit ticket-punch officers who didn't give a rat's ass about them.

Go fuck yourself dickweed.

Me and my high school friend Clark got drafted on the same day in April of 70

He was killed when FB Mary Ann had 50 sappers plus NVA breach the wire.

Clark's name is on the "Wall" because of that firefight.

And then comes along some piece of crap like you thumping his chicken hawk chest and disrespecting a KIA decorated U.S. soldier.

You're a maggot of the 1st degree and a pathetic disgrace all veterans. .

IF your friend was KIA, for him I have respect. That is if YOU aren't lying about that like your own "service" which never happened. YOU didn't serve in the RVN. YOU have praised the likes of the scum who brought about "Clark"s end. YOU are the maggot....a sniveling little coward trying to steal your friend's valor by association. YOU are even lower than the old gasbag hippie claiming to know about the VFW he was never a part of. YOU are human excrement boy.

 

[Sunni Man]

IF your friend was KIA, for him I have respect. That is if YOU aren't lying about that like your own "service" which never happened. YOU didn't serve in the RVN. YOU have praised the likes of the artitect of your friend's end. YOU are the maggot....a sniveling little coward trying to steal your friend's valor by association. YOU are even lower than the old gasbag hippie claiming to know about the VFW he was never a part of. YOU are human excrement boy.

Just go back to your local VFW and swap lies with your inebriated buddies and then stagger back home drunk as usual. ..

 

[bendog]

General Giap, Vietnam's master guerilla, dies aged 102 | News | DW.DE | 04.10.2013

among others. One less communist murderer among us.

Good.

 

[BullKurtz]

What is wrong with you. I was almost thinking that finaly I read some of your post I could agree with. I thought on this subject, Vietnam, you were a good person to carry the flag. But in this post you just did what you have been criticizing others of doing. You just disparaged all the veterans that followed you. According to you, everyone who followed after you are shit for brain loosers, because according to you, you and those who served with you had won the war and it was lost by those that followed. So according to you the asshole anti war protesters were wrong while you were in country, but had reason to protest once you returned home.

Nothing "wrong" with me. We did our job....we fucked up Nathan so bad in TET parts 1 & 2 that his ass was beat. Then most of our wave rotated back home. None of us could believe what happened after that. I have no respect for draftees. Either you joined the fight or you didn't. If was clear after 1975 the draft was a thing of the past....conscripts were lousy soldiers, no discipline, drank, doped, made noise during patrol or fudged them altogether. Fragged their officers, smoked friendlies, raped, took ears....the whole bag of worms. WE had hearts and minds....they threw them away with their shit soldiering. As to professionals in-country after us, to the duration, I have and will always hold respect. Those Giap lovers in this thread did not deserve and will get no further explaination of my statements.

 

[Sunni Man]

Nothing "wrong" with me.

Incorrect Bozo.........

You made a dozen posts saying that Vietnam Vets didn't face prejudice from people at the VFW.

Then you turn around and disparage your fellow Vietnam Vets.

You're a total idiot .

 

[9thIDdoc]

"The hippies spitting on vets was a myth. There are Zero stories at the time of vets being spat upon"

Untrue. I saw that and much worse.

Tell us what you saw

I saw many episodes of spitting accompanied by jeering and profanity, assault, assault with a deadly weapon, assault with a caustic substance (acid thrown in the face), battery, thrown rocks, bottles, and animal feces, and at least one report of premeditated murder. I saw deliberate destruction of government property and disruption of military operations. I saw signs referring to soldiers and/or sailors as dogs and refusing them service in the windows of restaurant's, bars, and other public businesses. I saw the US flag deliberately desecrated and the NVA flag waved in our faces.

And, yes, most or all of this was very well documented at the time. Apparently you are only able to see those things that fit your politics.