Zone1 Giving up the search for God

[Hollie]

Each character trait has its opposite (duality). Patient vs impatient. One may wish to improve on his/her character by becoming more patient.

In the physical realm, one can build muscles by working out. Within the soul/spirit one can build patience.

I'm not clear what a spirit / soul is and now you are introducing realms where these entities exist. What can you tell us about these realms?

 

[Hollie]

Again, some atheists prefer that direction of thought--i.e. it is all neurology and the personality is made up of neuron firings and when neurons die that by-product of neuron firings that is also known as personality is no more.

Interesting legal concept, isn't it? Why punish the body because of how neurons fire? Neurons are controlling us--we control...nothing.

Alternatively, why punish anyone who commits a crime because they were commanded by the gods? God's plan is not our plan. Why are mere humans usurping the will of the gods?

 

[Meriweather]

I'm not clear what a spirit / soul is and now you are introducing realms where these entities exist.

Forgive me. I thought you had a working knowledge of Christianity--and therefore duality and philosophy. No worries. There are other discussions.

 

[Hollie]

Forgive me. I thought you had a working knowledge of Christianity--and therefore duality and philosophy. No worries. There are other discussions.

I do apologize. I thought you had a working knowledge of what constitutes a supportable claim.

 

[Meriweather]

God's plan is not our plan.

Is anyone's plan our plan, and conversely, is my plan identical to that of anyone else? Doubtful. Certainly we can find commonalities with others, and how contrasting plans can still find harmony. In Christianity we pray that we discern the will of God and for the strength to follow it.

 

[Meriweather]

I do apologize. I thought you had a working knowledge of what constitutes a supportable claim.

Apology accepted. No worries. It is common for those rooted deeply in the physical realm where everything can be measured to forget such measurements are not always possible in philosophy and religion--or even in evaluating beauty, art, or pain.

 

[Hollie]

Apology accepted. No worries. It is common for those rooted deeply in the physical realm where everything can be measured to forget such measurements are not always possible in philosophy and religion--or even in evaluating beauty, art, or pain.

Well, that's true. Such things as beauty, art or pain are corporeal experiences and those experiences can be shared.

Spirit realms? Not so much.

 

[Meriweather]

Spirit realms? Not so much.

Actually they can and they have. Anyone who has been introduced to any of the Abrahamic faiths is aware of this. Buddhism and Plato also speak of it. Socrates argued death is not the end of existence, it is merely separation of the soul from the body. Also, quite a bit has been written about life after death and near death experiences. While they may not agree with it, most people have at least an inkling of what is meant by the spiritual realm.

 

[Hollie]

Actually they can and they have. Anyone who has been introduced to any of the Abrahamic faiths is aware of this. Buddhism and Plato also speak of it. Socrates argued death is not the end of existence, it is merely separation of the soul from the body. Also, quite a bit has been written about life after death and near death experiences. While they may not agree with it, most people have at least an inkling of what is meant by the spiritual realm.

Yes, philosophy is fine for discussions of the supernatural, spirit realms, angels, demons, etc.

I do need to point out that if you cannot describe the mechanisms by which spirit realms occur, and you can't list some of the physical and experimental evidence that supports these realms, then how in the world can you be so certain that these things are not just philosophical musings? This is theology, or metaphysics, not science.

Science is clear that as the brain is starved of oxygen and begins to die, all sorts of electro-chemical processes degrade which affect perception. No spirit realms are needed to define this.

 

[Meriweather]

This is theology, or metaphysics, not science.

Exactly! I have been saying that for years...decades. It has always seemed odd that people come to a religion forum and want to talk about science! Over and over and over again I have insisted that proof requires things that can be measure--that which exists in the physical realm. We have never--and still cannot--measure anything in the spiritual realm, so NO PROOFS. Ever. Proofs require physical measurement and the spiritual is beyond that which is physical. I've said that over and over and over again as well.

It makes no sense to ask for proofs when the discussion is centered on theology, philosophy, spirituality, and I wish people would knock it off.

 

[james bond]

The Holy Spirit is within you. All you have to do is talk to it and listen.

 

[Meriweather]

No spirit realms are needed to define this.

Now we are back to where we started--duality. That is why I suggested that you believe in body only. No free will, just neurons and thought patterns interacting with among themselves. We are pure chemistry--no humanity present.

This is in contrast to what Greeks, Hebrews, Buddhists, Muslims, Christians, Hindus (people of faith) who believe in the duality of humans--that we consist of body (including mind) and spirit. The physical part of the body (including brain and neurons) die. The spirit lives on. Your belief is that no spirit lives on, that we are simply little bags of water and chemicals that come together but do not exist very long. Do I have that right?

 

[Meriweather]

The Holy Spirit is within you. All you have to do is talk to it and listen.

Words have power.

 

[Hollie]

The Holy Spirit is within you. All you have to do is talk to it and listen.

Maybe the prescription for your psychoactive medications needs adjustment?

 

[Hollie]

Now we are back to where we started--duality. That is why I suggested that you believe in body only. No free will, just neurons and thought patterns interacting with among themselves. We are pure chemistry--no humanity present.

This is in contrast to what Greeks, Hebrews, Buddhists, Muslims, Christians, Hindus (people of faith) who believe in the duality of humans--that we consist of body (including mind) and spirit. The physical part of the body (including brain and neurons) die. The spirit lives on. Your belief is that no spirit lives on, that we are simply little bags of water and chemicals that come together but do not exist very long. Do I have that right?

My conclusion is that spirit / supernatural realms do not exist, that angels in heaven and bearded men in long flowing robes do not sit in judgemental over mortals. life is precious because it is corporeal and finite. The history of religions is one of conflict, conquest and the most cruel treatment of humans.

Your belief is that spirits exist, angels play harps in heaven, that the spirit realms will be somehow less if your eternal personality is not sitting at the feet of gods and that life is somehow less than precious because you get a do-over if you appease a certain subsect of gods.

Do I have that right?

 

[Meriweather]

Do I have that right?

No. I have no reason to question what you say you believe. You miss my beliefs by a mile, figuratively speaking.

 

[Hollie]

No. I have no reason to question what you say you believe. You miss my beliefs by a mile, figuratively speaking.

I think you miss my stated conclusions as beliefs. I have no belief that the planet is vastly old, that humans don't live to be 900 years old or that invisible, pink unicorns don't exist. Claims to supernatural spirit realms do not provide any rational basis for meaningful evaluation or understanding. To accept or even take seriously the tenets of spirit realms requires the total abandonment of the results of centuries of human progress past the Dark Ages and of the principles of objectivity, rationality, and open-minded inquiry.

 

[Meriweather]

I have no belief that the planet is vastly old, that humans don't live to be 900 years old or that invisible, pink unicorns don't exist.

The earth is about 4.54 billion years old; individuals do not live to be 900 years old, but their tribe/nation/family line might; no reason to insult rhinoceroses by calling them pink unicorns.

Sigh. You must be one who either insists the Bible is a literal account or insists everyone, not just a small minority, conclude it is a literal account.

 

[Hollie]

The earth is about 4.54 billion years old; individuals do not live to be 900 years old, but their tribe/nation/family line might; no reason to insult rhinoceroses by calling them pink unicorns.

Sigh. You must be one who either insists the Bible is a literal account or insists everyone, not just a small minority, conclude it is a literal account.

I can't help but note how arbitrary it is. If one believes in a literal three part God, spirit realms, angels in heaven, everlastingife in heaven, eternal torture in hell then why not 900 year old men?

 

[Meriweather]

To accept or even take seriously the tenets of spirit realms requires the total abandonment of the results of centuries of human progress past the Dark Ages and of the principles of objectivity, rationality, and open-minded inquiry.

Shrug. Somehow you reached the conclusion that either heaven is angels playing harps while everyone is seated around a pair of feet--or, you believe that is what everyone else thinks. That is a very odd view of theology.