Global Cooling Theory picks up Steam

[flacaltenn]

The house furnace example is merely a construct to explain Pulse Width Modulation. Where the duty cycle of the forcing, tho constrained to merely 2 levels can produce a linear function with a slope.

I see by your comment that went right over your head. Not talking about reaching a thermal equilibrium where the heating stops. Merely demonstrating that systems with storage don't neccessarily have outputs shaped like their inputs. Which is the Juvenile expectation of MOST climate science where they focus on the correlation of the shape of the CO2 graph versus the resulting temperature. At least until the "Oceans ate Our Warming" theory was announced.

I'll try to come up with something simpler if you like.. Or you can just walk away.

It's a perfect example to show how storage and lags can be used to transform input forcing functions into shapes unlike the input.. The climate system is FULL of those things. Both in the direct path and in the feedbacks.

 

[Crick]

Are you suggesting that my house continues to warm after the furnace goes off? Care to explain?

 

[Crick]

BTW, FU and your "juvenile". The idea you've got that you know more than the PhDs working these problems is proof positive that you haven't got the intellect to polish their shoes.

 

[flacaltenn]

BTW, FU and your "juvenile". The idea you've got that you know more than the PhDs working these problems is proof positive that you haven't got the intellect to polish their shoes.

You just haven't been keeping up with Climate Science. Still you want to believe that whatever causes a warming blip on the planet must have the same shape and timing as the temperature curve. That thinking is disappearing rapidly. In retrospect, it WILL be viewed as the juvenile beginnings of Climate Science and some of it will actually illicit giggles.

So FU Two..

 

[flacaltenn]

Are you suggesting that my house continues to warm after the furnace goes off? Care to explain?

From experience.... No --- I think I'll pass. You just ignore all that please.
If you haven't heard -- forcings are now allowed to cause "persistence" in temperature for decades after they plateau or even decline. That's what happens in a complex thermodynamic system.

But that wasn't the point of the analogy. The point of the analogy was that inputs don't HAVE to correlate or look just like the inputs in MOST ALL complex systems with feedback, phase delays, and storage..

 

[Crick]

What "storage" do you believe the Earth possesses that is not thermal in nature? Putting a large portion of energy into the deep ocean, for instance, does not prevent the Earth's average temperature from rising. It might keep us from knowing about it for a while, but that's not what you're claiming. So, where do you believe this heat energy is hiding in a non-thermal state?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

What "storage" do you believe the Earth possesses that is not thermal in nature? Putting a large portion of energy into the deep ocean, for instance, does not prevent the Earth's average temperature from rising. It might keep us from knowing about it for a a while, but that's not what you're claiming. So, where do you believe this heat energy is hiding in a non-thermal state?

Are you still hanging your hopes on the Pacific Blob?

 

[Crick]

What "storage" do you believe the Earth possesses that is not thermal in nature? Putting a large portion of energy into the deep ocean, for instance, does not prevent the Earth's average temperature from rising. It might keep us from knowing about it for a while, but that's not what you're claiming. So, where do you believe this heat energy is hiding in a non-thermal state?

Eh?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

heat storage LOL

in an open system

LOL

Then the AGWCult wonder why we find them so funny

 

[Crick]

You're laughing at your good buddy FlaCalTenn, not me Frank.

 

[flacaltenn]

You're laughing at your good buddy FlaCalTenn, not me Frank.

If CrusaderFrank laughs at ME.. I laugh back - in - his - face..

He probably shouldn't go all SSDD on this "open system" theory of Earth Climate.
Not unusual to have systems with weak thermal boundaries that still reach equilibrium more often than not. In fact -- CrusaderFrank is a system with a weak thermal boundary, but he reaches a 98.6degF equilibrium unless he's passed out again.. And his "open system" shell has ways of storing heat --- go figure...

You turn off the climate control in that closed system of a Space Station and see how long it remains closed. Likely to roast on one side and freeze on the other - since the amount of heat storage is limited.....

 

[CrusaderFrank]

You're laughing at your good buddy FlaCalTenn, not me Frank.

Tell us again how the Pacific Ocean, 700m deep ate all your "Global Climate Warming Change"

Is that how the Blob was born?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

You're laughing at your good buddy FlaCalTenn, not me Frank.

If CrusaderFrank laughs at ME.. I laugh back in his face..

He probably shouldn't go all SSDD on this "open system" theory of Earth Climate.
Not unusual to have systems with heat leaks. It's a leak --- not an "open system".

You turn off the climate control in that closed system of a Space Station and see how long it remains closed. Likely to roast on one side and freeze on the other....

In comparison to the size of the planet, our entire atmosphere is the size of a coat of varnish on a basketball; that's an open system

(I was laughing at Crick, I find him hilarious)

 

[Billy_Bob]

Heat Capacity; Thermal Conductivity; Thermal Inertia


A primary objective of temperature measurements and related thermal responses is to infer something about the nature of the composition and other physical attributes of materials at the Earth's surface and, in its atmosphere. For any material, certain internal properties play important roles in governing the temperature of a body at equilibrium with its surroundings.


These properties include:

• Heat Capacity (C): The measure of the increase in thermal energy content (Q) per degree of temperature rise. It denotes the capacity of a material to store heat, and we give it cgs units of calories per cubic cm. per degree Centigrade (recall from physics that a calorie [cal] is the quantity of heat needed to raise one gram of water by one degree Centigrade). We calculate heat capacity as the ratio of the amount of heat energy, in calories, required to raise a given volume of a material by one degree Centigrade (at a standard temperature of 15° Centigrade) to the amount needed to raise the same volume of water by one degree Centigrade. A related quantity, specific heat (c), is defined as C = c/ρ (units are calories per gram per degree Centigrade) where ρ (rho) = density. This property associates Heat Capacity to the thermal energy required to raise a mass of one gram of water by one degree Centigrade.
• Thermal Conductivity (K): The rate at which heat passes through a specific thickness of a substance, measured as the calories delivered in one second across a one centimeter square area through a thickness of one cm at a temperature gradient of one degree Centigrade (units: calories per centimeter per second per degree Centigrade)
• Thermal Inertia (P): The resistance of a material to temperature change, indicated by the time dependent variations in temperature during a full heating/cooling cycle (a 24-hour day for Earth); defined as P = (Kcρ )1/2 = cρ (k)1/2. (The term k, related to conductivity K, is known as thermal diffusivity, and has units of centimeters squared per second; this parameter governs the rate of temperature change within a material; it is a measure of a substance's ability to transfer heat in and out of that portion that received solar heating during the day and cools at night). P is a measure of the heat transfer rate across a boundary between two materials. e.g., air/soil. Because materials with high P possess a strong inertial resistance to temperature fluctuations at a surface boundary, they show less temperature variation per heating/cooling cycle than those with lower thermal inertia.

• (source)

The amount of heat required to raise water temps is 700 times the energy needed to raise air temperature. The air temperature would have to be very high to defeat the boundary of water.

When you do the math and recognize the thermal properties of All items involved even if that 0.1 deg C is hiding in the oceans it wouldn't mean squat when it is released as water vapor in a cooling world..
`

 

[Crick]

You're laughing at your good buddy FlaCalTenn, not me Frank.

If CrusaderFrank laughs at ME.. I laugh back - in - his - face..

He probably shouldn't go all SSDD on this "open system" theory of Earth Climate.
Not unusual to have systems with weak thermal boundaries that still reach equilibrium more often than not. In fact -- CrusaderFrank is a system with a weak thermal boundary, but he reaches a 98.6degF equilibrium unless he's passed out again.. And his "open system" shell has ways of storing heat --- go figure...

You turn off the climate control in that closed system of a Space Station and see how long it remains closed. Likely to roast on one side and freeze on the other - since the amount of heat storage is limited.....

And what is the non-thermal storage media leading to the nonlinear response you keep positing?

 

[Crick]

The amount of heat required to raise water temps is 700 times the energy needed to raise air temperature.

Yes...

The air temperature would have to be very high to defeat the boundary of water.

No... water is not resistant to absorbing and transferring thermal energy. It sucks it up like a dry sponge and moves it along lickety-split.

When you do the math

I have done the math. Let us know when you've finished thermodynamics and heat transfer. It's quite obvious you haven't even started either curriculum.

and recognize the thermal properties of All items involved even if that 0.1 deg C is hiding in the oceans it wouldn't mean squat when it is released as water vapor in a cooling world..

God are you stupid.

 

[Billy_Bob]

The amount of heat required to raise water temps is 700 times the energy needed to raise air temperature.

Yes...

The air temperature would have to be very high to defeat the boundary of water.

No... water is not resistant to absorbing and transferring thermal energy. It sucks it up like a dry sponge and moves it along lickety-split.

When you do the math

I have done the math. Let us know when you've finished thermodynamics and heat transfer. It's quite obvious you haven't even started either curriculum.

and recognize the thermal properties of All items involved even if that 0.1 deg C is hiding in the oceans it wouldn't mean squat when it is released as water vapor in a cooling world..

God are you stupid.

I posted text book information, text book math and how to set up the problem, textbook information on thermal properties of differing solutions and solids and all you can say is "god your stupid"...

Sounds to me like your the one with the problem, you refuse to even use any cognitive thought skills or critical thinking skills. Your agenda trumps all.

The thermal sink known as our oceans are now cooling rapidly. The rise over the last 30 years of 0.17 deg C is now dropping and over half of the heat is now gone in just under 2 years (now 0.06). Is this natural variation and thus even the remaining temp is just natural fluctuations?

If you took the time to do just very basic physics of the theroy, you would find that it fails miserably.

Do the math.

 

[jon_berzerk]

heat storage LOL

in an open system

LOL

Then the AGWCult wonder why we find them so funny

pitifully so

--LOL

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Heat Capacity; Thermal Conductivity; Thermal Inertia


A primary objective of temperature measurements and related thermal responses is to infer something about the nature of the composition and other physical attributes of materials at the Earth's surface and, in its atmosphere. For any material, certain internal properties play important roles in governing the temperature of a body at equilibrium with its surroundings.


These properties include:

• Heat Capacity (C): The measure of the increase in thermal energy content (Q) per degree of temperature rise. It denotes the capacity of a material to store heat, and we give it cgs units of calories per cubic cm. per degree Centigrade (recall from physics that a calorie [cal] is the quantity of heat needed to raise one gram of water by one degree Centigrade). We calculate heat capacity as the ratio of the amount of heat energy, in calories, required to raise a given volume of a material by one degree Centigrade (at a standard temperature of 15° Centigrade) to the amount needed to raise the same volume of water by one degree Centigrade. A related quantity, specific heat (c), is defined as C = c/ρ (units are calories per gram per degree Centigrade) where ρ (rho) = density. This property associates Heat Capacity to the thermal energy required to raise a mass of one gram of water by one degree Centigrade.
• Thermal Conductivity (K): The rate at which heat passes through a specific thickness of a substance, measured as the calories delivered in one second across a one centimeter square area through a thickness of one cm at a temperature gradient of one degree Centigrade (units: calories per centimeter per second per degree Centigrade)
• Thermal Inertia (P): The resistance of a material to temperature change, indicated by the time dependent variations in temperature during a full heating/cooling cycle (a 24-hour day for Earth); defined as P = (Kcρ )1/2 = cρ (k)1/2. (The term k, related to conductivity K, is known as thermal diffusivity, and has units of centimeters squared per second; this parameter governs the rate of temperature change within a material; it is a measure of a substance's ability to transfer heat in and out of that portion that received solar heating during the day and cools at night). P is a measure of the heat transfer rate across a boundary between two materials. e.g., air/soil. Because materials with high P possess a strong inertial resistance to temperature fluctuations at a surface boundary, they show less temperature variation per heating/cooling cycle than those with lower thermal inertia.

• (source)

The amount of heat required to raise water temps is 700 times the energy needed to raise air temperature. The air temperature would have to be very high to defeat the boundary of water.

When you do the math and recognize the thermal properties of All items involved even if that 0.1 deg C is hiding in the oceans it wouldn't mean squat when it is released as water vapor in a cooling world..
`

If it takes 700 times the energy then would the energy used to raise ocean temps .1 degree have raised air temps 70 degrees?

 

[IanC]

the oceans control the climate. if I am to believe that a few tenths of a degree Celsius can be converted into multiple degrees in the atmosphere I need to know where the fulcrum point is. the balance point.

if the oceans cooled a few tenths would that convert into multiple degrees of atmospheric cooling? because there appears to be a lot of evidence that the oceans have less heat content than they have had in a long time.