Greece’s Economy Is a Lesson for Republicans in the U.S.

[Socialist]

it sure is...don't be stupid like the Greeks and don't embrace socialism...reduce the size of government and increase individual freedom....works like a charm every timeout is tried...

Oh right let's be more like Somalia. Great plan.

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well. Somalia?

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well.

The US pre-FDR.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.
Yeah, nothing like seniors being homeless in massive rates, a lack of a social safety net, a lack of guaranteed savings, a lack of regulation (Hm, what caused the great depression?)

hey vampire , not many people lived to 65 idiot back then.... Do you get it? The only reason why you think he was great was because of WWII it saved his legacy and new deal

The World - Life Before Social Security - A Great Calamity Has Come Upon Us - NYTimes.com

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It's not what you think it is

Greece is a faraway country with an economy roughly the size of greater Miami, so America has very little direct stake in its ongoing disaster. To the extent that Greece matters to us, it’s mainly about geopolitics: By poisoning relations among Europe’s democracies, the Greek crisis risks depriving the United States of crucial allies.

But Greece has nonetheless played an outsized role in U.S. political debate, as a symbol of the terrible things that will supposedly happen — any day now — unless we stop helping the less fortunate and printing money to fight unemployment. And Greece does indeed offer important lessons to the rest of us. But they’re not the lessons you think, and the people most likely to deliver a Greek-style economic disaster here in America are the very people who love to use Greece as a boogeyman.

To understand the real lessons of Greece, you need to be aware of two crucial points.

Paul Krugman[/paste:font]
Macroeconomics, trade, health care, social policy and politics.

• Ending Greece’s BleedingJUL 5
• Europe’s Many Economic DisastersJUL 3
• Greece Over the BrinkJUN 29
• Hooray for ObamacareJUN 25
• Slavery’s Long ShadowJUN 22

See More »

The first is that the “We’re Greece!” crowd has a truly remarkable track record when it comes to economic forecasting: They’ve been wrong about everything, year after year, but refuse to learn from their mistakes. The people now saying that Greece offers an object lesson in the dangers of government debt, and that America is headed down the same road, are the same people who predicted soaring interest rates and runaway inflation in 2010; then, when it didn’t happen, they predicted soaring rates and runaway inflation in 2011; then, well, you get the picture.

The second is that the story you’ve heard about Greece — that it borrowed too much, and its excessive debt led to the current crisis — is seriously incomplete. Greece did indeed run up too much debt (with a lot of help from irresponsible lenders). But its debt, while high, wasn’t that high by historical standards. What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.

Consider Greece’s situation at the end of 2009, when its debt crisis burst into the open. At that point Greek government debt was near 130 percent of gross domestic product, which is definitely a big number. But it’s by no means unprecedented. As it happens, Greece’s debt ratio in 2009 was about the same as America’s in 1946, just after the war. And Britain’s debt ratio in 1946 was twice as high.

Today, however, Greek debt is over 170 percent of G.D.P. and still rising. Is that because Greece just kept on borrowing? Actually, no — Greek debt is up only 6 percent since 2009, although that’s partly because it received some debt relief in 2012. The main point, however, is that the ratio of debt to G.D.P. is up because G.D.P. is down by more than 20 percent. And why is GDP down? Largely because of the austerity measures Greece’s creditors forced it to impose.

Does this mean that austerity is always self-defeating? No, there are cases — for example, Canada in the 1990s — of countries that slashed their debt while maintaining growth and reducing unemployment. But if you look at how they managed this, it involved combining fiscal austerity with easy money: Canada in the ’90s drastically reduced interest rates, encouraging private spending, while allowing its currency to depreciate, encouraging exports.
Greece, unfortunately, no longer had its own currency when it was forced into drastic fiscal retrenchment. The result was an economic implosion that ended up making the debt problem even worse. Greece’s formula for disaster, in other words, didn’t just involve austerity; it involved the toxic combination of austerity with hard money.

So who wants to impose that kind of toxic policy mix on America? The answer is, most of the Republican Party.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

On the other side, leading Republicans like Representative Paul Ryan incessantly attack the Federal Reserve for its efforts to boost the economy, delivering solemn lectures on the evils of “debasing” the dollar — when the main difference between the effects of austerity in Canada and in Greece was precisely that Canada could “debase” its currency, while Greece couldn’t. Oh, and many Republicans hanker for a return to the gold standard, which would effectively put us into a euro-like straitjacket.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

You know the problem is that you are preaching to people (republicans) who don't even understand what socialism is. They see no difference between Norway and North Korea. They are that brainwashed. Fox News has them by the balls.

I wish the U.S. could be more like Norway but I doubt that will ever happen.

Yeah...we are too busy protecting them while they spend as much as they want on government benefits....while they get to keep their wealth from their North Sea oil rigs......imagine if they actually had to be responsible for their own national security and their people had to serve in heir military instead of living off of government hand outs.....but don't worry...a friend of mine...a Norwegian, said they are importing immigrants from violent 3rd world countries to do the work Norwegians won't do....and bringing their violent, misogynist cultures with them...

How the hell are we to busy protecting them? This argument is fucking retarded, our defense spending is more then the next top 8 countries combined, counting russia/china, and the UN nations/scandinavia are well fortified regardless of the US, and honestly, show me one example of us protecting them in the modern day. How much wealth do you think they get from oil? All nations have resources by the way, and what about countries like germany/finland/sweden/etc?

How much wealth do you think they get from oil?

They exported about 1.3 million barrels a day in 2012.
About 475 million barrels. Not bad for a nation with 5.1 million people.

 

[Socialist]

It's not what you think it is

Greece is a faraway country with an economy roughly the size of greater Miami, so America has very little direct stake in its ongoing disaster. To the extent that Greece matters to us, it’s mainly about geopolitics: By poisoning relations among Europe’s democracies, the Greek crisis risks depriving the United States of crucial allies.

But Greece has nonetheless played an outsized role in U.S. political debate, as a symbol of the terrible things that will supposedly happen — any day now — unless we stop helping the less fortunate and printing money to fight unemployment. And Greece does indeed offer important lessons to the rest of us. But they’re not the lessons you think, and the people most likely to deliver a Greek-style economic disaster here in America are the very people who love to use Greece as a boogeyman.

To understand the real lessons of Greece, you need to be aware of two crucial points.

Paul Krugman[/paste:font]
Macroeconomics, trade, health care, social policy and politics.

• Ending Greece’s BleedingJUL 5
• Europe’s Many Economic DisastersJUL 3
• Greece Over the BrinkJUN 29
• Hooray for ObamacareJUN 25
• Slavery’s Long ShadowJUN 22

See More »

The first is that the “We’re Greece!” crowd has a truly remarkable track record when it comes to economic forecasting: They’ve been wrong about everything, year after year, but refuse to learn from their mistakes. The people now saying that Greece offers an object lesson in the dangers of government debt, and that America is headed down the same road, are the same people who predicted soaring interest rates and runaway inflation in 2010; then, when it didn’t happen, they predicted soaring rates and runaway inflation in 2011; then, well, you get the picture.

The second is that the story you’ve heard about Greece — that it borrowed too much, and its excessive debt led to the current crisis — is seriously incomplete. Greece did indeed run up too much debt (with a lot of help from irresponsible lenders). But its debt, while high, wasn’t that high by historical standards. What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.

Consider Greece’s situation at the end of 2009, when its debt crisis burst into the open. At that point Greek government debt was near 130 percent of gross domestic product, which is definitely a big number. But it’s by no means unprecedented. As it happens, Greece’s debt ratio in 2009 was about the same as America’s in 1946, just after the war. And Britain’s debt ratio in 1946 was twice as high.

Today, however, Greek debt is over 170 percent of G.D.P. and still rising. Is that because Greece just kept on borrowing? Actually, no — Greek debt is up only 6 percent since 2009, although that’s partly because it received some debt relief in 2012. The main point, however, is that the ratio of debt to G.D.P. is up because G.D.P. is down by more than 20 percent. And why is GDP down? Largely because of the austerity measures Greece’s creditors forced it to impose.

Does this mean that austerity is always self-defeating? No, there are cases — for example, Canada in the 1990s — of countries that slashed their debt while maintaining growth and reducing unemployment. But if you look at how they managed this, it involved combining fiscal austerity with easy money: Canada in the ’90s drastically reduced interest rates, encouraging private spending, while allowing its currency to depreciate, encouraging exports.
Greece, unfortunately, no longer had its own currency when it was forced into drastic fiscal retrenchment. The result was an economic implosion that ended up making the debt problem even worse. Greece’s formula for disaster, in other words, didn’t just involve austerity; it involved the toxic combination of austerity with hard money.

So who wants to impose that kind of toxic policy mix on America? The answer is, most of the Republican Party.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

On the other side, leading Republicans like Representative Paul Ryan incessantly attack the Federal Reserve for its efforts to boost the economy, delivering solemn lectures on the evils of “debasing” the dollar — when the main difference between the effects of austerity in Canada and in Greece was precisely that Canada could “debase” its currency, while Greece couldn’t. Oh, and many Republicans hanker for a return to the gold standard, which would effectively put us into a euro-like straitjacket.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

You know the problem is that you are preaching to people (republicans) who don't even understand what socialism is. They see no difference between Norway and North Korea. They are that brainwashed. Fox News has them by the balls.

I wish the U.S. could be more like Norway but I doubt that will ever happen.

Yeah...we are too busy protecting them while they spend as much as they want on government benefits....while they get to keep their wealth from their North Sea oil rigs......imagine if they actually had to be responsible for their own national security and their people had to serve in heir military instead of living off of government hand outs.....but don't worry...a friend of mine...a Norwegian, said they are importing immigrants from violent 3rd world countries to do the work Norwegians won't do....and bringing their violent, misogynist cultures with them...

How the hell are we to busy protecting them? This argument is fucking retarded, our defense spending is more then the next top 8 countries combined, counting russia/china, and the UN nations/scandinavia are well fortified regardless of the US, and honestly, show me one example of us protecting them in the modern day. How much wealth do you think they get from oil? All nations have resources by the way, and what about countries like germany/finland/sweden/etc?

How much wealth do you think they get from oil?

They exported about 1.3 million barrels a day in 2012.
About 475 million barrels. Not bad for a nation with 5.1 million people.

Yes, but I mean as a percent of what they're bringing in. Many countries are resource rich, and many get by fine with generous state programs like germany/etc..

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It's not what you think it is

Greece is a faraway country with an economy roughly the size of greater Miami, so America has very little direct stake in its ongoing disaster. To the extent that Greece matters to us, it’s mainly about geopolitics: By poisoning relations among Europe’s democracies, the Greek crisis risks depriving the United States of crucial allies.

But Greece has nonetheless played an outsized role in U.S. political debate, as a symbol of the terrible things that will supposedly happen — any day now — unless we stop helping the less fortunate and printing money to fight unemployment. And Greece does indeed offer important lessons to the rest of us. But they’re not the lessons you think, and the people most likely to deliver a Greek-style economic disaster here in America are the very people who love to use Greece as a boogeyman.

To understand the real lessons of Greece, you need to be aware of two crucial points.

Paul Krugman[/paste:font]
Macroeconomics, trade, health care, social policy and politics.

• Ending Greece’s BleedingJUL 5
• Europe’s Many Economic DisastersJUL 3
• Greece Over the BrinkJUN 29
• Hooray for ObamacareJUN 25
• Slavery’s Long ShadowJUN 22

See More »

The first is that the “We’re Greece!” crowd has a truly remarkable track record when it comes to economic forecasting: They’ve been wrong about everything, year after year, but refuse to learn from their mistakes. The people now saying that Greece offers an object lesson in the dangers of government debt, and that America is headed down the same road, are the same people who predicted soaring interest rates and runaway inflation in 2010; then, when it didn’t happen, they predicted soaring rates and runaway inflation in 2011; then, well, you get the picture.

The second is that the story you’ve heard about Greece — that it borrowed too much, and its excessive debt led to the current crisis — is seriously incomplete. Greece did indeed run up too much debt (with a lot of help from irresponsible lenders). But its debt, while high, wasn’t that high by historical standards. What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.

Consider Greece’s situation at the end of 2009, when its debt crisis burst into the open. At that point Greek government debt was near 130 percent of gross domestic product, which is definitely a big number. But it’s by no means unprecedented. As it happens, Greece’s debt ratio in 2009 was about the same as America’s in 1946, just after the war. And Britain’s debt ratio in 1946 was twice as high.

Today, however, Greek debt is over 170 percent of G.D.P. and still rising. Is that because Greece just kept on borrowing? Actually, no — Greek debt is up only 6 percent since 2009, although that’s partly because it received some debt relief in 2012. The main point, however, is that the ratio of debt to G.D.P. is up because G.D.P. is down by more than 20 percent. And why is GDP down? Largely because of the austerity measures Greece’s creditors forced it to impose.

Does this mean that austerity is always self-defeating? No, there are cases — for example, Canada in the 1990s — of countries that slashed their debt while maintaining growth and reducing unemployment. But if you look at how they managed this, it involved combining fiscal austerity with easy money: Canada in the ’90s drastically reduced interest rates, encouraging private spending, while allowing its currency to depreciate, encouraging exports.
Greece, unfortunately, no longer had its own currency when it was forced into drastic fiscal retrenchment. The result was an economic implosion that ended up making the debt problem even worse. Greece’s formula for disaster, in other words, didn’t just involve austerity; it involved the toxic combination of austerity with hard money.

So who wants to impose that kind of toxic policy mix on America? The answer is, most of the Republican Party.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

On the other side, leading Republicans like Representative Paul Ryan incessantly attack the Federal Reserve for its efforts to boost the economy, delivering solemn lectures on the evils of “debasing” the dollar — when the main difference between the effects of austerity in Canada and in Greece was precisely that Canada could “debase” its currency, while Greece couldn’t. Oh, and many Republicans hanker for a return to the gold standard, which would effectively put us into a euro-like straitjacket.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.
If your government spends 59% of GDP, you're doing your austerity wrong.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

Greece wants to increase welfare and pension payments and raise taxes.
That's a great way to increase domestic production and employment. Not!

Err, the problem with greece was mainly tax evasion/the retirement problem, other "welfare" states are doing amazing.

Err, the problem with greece was mainly tax evasion

When the government is spending 59% of GDP, tax evasion isn't your biggest problem.

 

[Socialist]

It's not what you think it is

Greece is a faraway country with an economy roughly the size of greater Miami, so America has very little direct stake in its ongoing disaster. To the extent that Greece matters to us, it’s mainly about geopolitics: By poisoning relations among Europe’s democracies, the Greek crisis risks depriving the United States of crucial allies.

But Greece has nonetheless played an outsized role in U.S. political debate, as a symbol of the terrible things that will supposedly happen — any day now — unless we stop helping the less fortunate and printing money to fight unemployment. And Greece does indeed offer important lessons to the rest of us. But they’re not the lessons you think, and the people most likely to deliver a Greek-style economic disaster here in America are the very people who love to use Greece as a boogeyman.

To understand the real lessons of Greece, you need to be aware of two crucial points.

Paul Krugman[/paste:font]
Macroeconomics, trade, health care, social policy and politics.

• Ending Greece’s BleedingJUL 5
• Europe’s Many Economic DisastersJUL 3
• Greece Over the BrinkJUN 29
• Hooray for ObamacareJUN 25
• Slavery’s Long ShadowJUN 22

See More »

The first is that the “We’re Greece!” crowd has a truly remarkable track record when it comes to economic forecasting: They’ve been wrong about everything, year after year, but refuse to learn from their mistakes. The people now saying that Greece offers an object lesson in the dangers of government debt, and that America is headed down the same road, are the same people who predicted soaring interest rates and runaway inflation in 2010; then, when it didn’t happen, they predicted soaring rates and runaway inflation in 2011; then, well, you get the picture.

The second is that the story you’ve heard about Greece — that it borrowed too much, and its excessive debt led to the current crisis — is seriously incomplete. Greece did indeed run up too much debt (with a lot of help from irresponsible lenders). But its debt, while high, wasn’t that high by historical standards. What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.

Consider Greece’s situation at the end of 2009, when its debt crisis burst into the open. At that point Greek government debt was near 130 percent of gross domestic product, which is definitely a big number. But it’s by no means unprecedented. As it happens, Greece’s debt ratio in 2009 was about the same as America’s in 1946, just after the war. And Britain’s debt ratio in 1946 was twice as high.

Today, however, Greek debt is over 170 percent of G.D.P. and still rising. Is that because Greece just kept on borrowing? Actually, no — Greek debt is up only 6 percent since 2009, although that’s partly because it received some debt relief in 2012. The main point, however, is that the ratio of debt to G.D.P. is up because G.D.P. is down by more than 20 percent. And why is GDP down? Largely because of the austerity measures Greece’s creditors forced it to impose.

Does this mean that austerity is always self-defeating? No, there are cases — for example, Canada in the 1990s — of countries that slashed their debt while maintaining growth and reducing unemployment. But if you look at how they managed this, it involved combining fiscal austerity with easy money: Canada in the ’90s drastically reduced interest rates, encouraging private spending, while allowing its currency to depreciate, encouraging exports.
Greece, unfortunately, no longer had its own currency when it was forced into drastic fiscal retrenchment. The result was an economic implosion that ended up making the debt problem even worse. Greece’s formula for disaster, in other words, didn’t just involve austerity; it involved the toxic combination of austerity with hard money.

So who wants to impose that kind of toxic policy mix on America? The answer is, most of the Republican Party.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

On the other side, leading Republicans like Representative Paul Ryan incessantly attack the Federal Reserve for its efforts to boost the economy, delivering solemn lectures on the evils of “debasing” the dollar — when the main difference between the effects of austerity in Canada and in Greece was precisely that Canada could “debase” its currency, while Greece couldn’t. Oh, and many Republicans hanker for a return to the gold standard, which would effectively put us into a euro-like straitjacket.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.
If your government spends 59% of GDP, you're doing your austerity wrong.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

Greece wants to increase welfare and pension payments and raise taxes.
That's a great way to increase domestic production and employment. Not!

Err, the problem with greece was mainly tax evasion/the retirement problem, other "welfare" states are doing amazing.

Err, the problem with greece was mainly tax evasion

When the government is spending 59% of GDP, tax evasion isn't your biggest problem.

I'm sorry:
Government spending - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Greece mainly failed due to tax evasion and the early retirement, try again nut.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It's not what you think it is

Greece is a faraway country with an economy roughly the size of greater Miami, so America has very little direct stake in its ongoing disaster. To the extent that Greece matters to us, it’s mainly about geopolitics: By poisoning relations among Europe’s democracies, the Greek crisis risks depriving the United States of crucial allies.

But Greece has nonetheless played an outsized role in U.S. political debate, as a symbol of the terrible things that will supposedly happen — any day now — unless we stop helping the less fortunate and printing money to fight unemployment. And Greece does indeed offer important lessons to the rest of us. But they’re not the lessons you think, and the people most likely to deliver a Greek-style economic disaster here in America are the very people who love to use Greece as a boogeyman.

To understand the real lessons of Greece, you need to be aware of two crucial points.

Paul Krugman[/paste:font]
Macroeconomics, trade, health care, social policy and politics.

• Ending Greece’s BleedingJUL 5
• Europe’s Many Economic DisastersJUL 3
• Greece Over the BrinkJUN 29
• Hooray for ObamacareJUN 25
• Slavery’s Long ShadowJUN 22

See More »

The first is that the “We’re Greece!” crowd has a truly remarkable track record when it comes to economic forecasting: They’ve been wrong about everything, year after year, but refuse to learn from their mistakes. The people now saying that Greece offers an object lesson in the dangers of government debt, and that America is headed down the same road, are the same people who predicted soaring interest rates and runaway inflation in 2010; then, when it didn’t happen, they predicted soaring rates and runaway inflation in 2011; then, well, you get the picture.

The second is that the story you’ve heard about Greece — that it borrowed too much, and its excessive debt led to the current crisis — is seriously incomplete. Greece did indeed run up too much debt (with a lot of help from irresponsible lenders). But its debt, while high, wasn’t that high by historical standards. What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.

Consider Greece’s situation at the end of 2009, when its debt crisis burst into the open. At that point Greek government debt was near 130 percent of gross domestic product, which is definitely a big number. But it’s by no means unprecedented. As it happens, Greece’s debt ratio in 2009 was about the same as America’s in 1946, just after the war. And Britain’s debt ratio in 1946 was twice as high.

Today, however, Greek debt is over 170 percent of G.D.P. and still rising. Is that because Greece just kept on borrowing? Actually, no — Greek debt is up only 6 percent since 2009, although that’s partly because it received some debt relief in 2012. The main point, however, is that the ratio of debt to G.D.P. is up because G.D.P. is down by more than 20 percent. And why is GDP down? Largely because of the austerity measures Greece’s creditors forced it to impose.

Does this mean that austerity is always self-defeating? No, there are cases — for example, Canada in the 1990s — of countries that slashed their debt while maintaining growth and reducing unemployment. But if you look at how they managed this, it involved combining fiscal austerity with easy money: Canada in the ’90s drastically reduced interest rates, encouraging private spending, while allowing its currency to depreciate, encouraging exports.
Greece, unfortunately, no longer had its own currency when it was forced into drastic fiscal retrenchment. The result was an economic implosion that ended up making the debt problem even worse. Greece’s formula for disaster, in other words, didn’t just involve austerity; it involved the toxic combination of austerity with hard money.

So who wants to impose that kind of toxic policy mix on America? The answer is, most of the Republican Party.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

On the other side, leading Republicans like Representative Paul Ryan incessantly attack the Federal Reserve for its efforts to boost the economy, delivering solemn lectures on the evils of “debasing” the dollar — when the main difference between the effects of austerity in Canada and in Greece was precisely that Canada could “debase” its currency, while Greece couldn’t. Oh, and many Republicans hanker for a return to the gold standard, which would effectively put us into a euro-like straitjacket.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

You know the problem is that you are preaching to people (republicans) who don't even understand what socialism is. They see no difference between Norway and North Korea. They are that brainwashed. Fox News has them by the balls.

I wish the U.S. could be more like Norway but I doubt that will ever happen.

I wish the U.S. could be more like Norway but I doubt that will ever happen.

Their population is over 94% Norwegian.
Most of the rest are European.
And they're a huge oil exporter.

We'd better start deporting lots of legal immigrants, all our illegal aliens and start drilling in ANWR to fulfill your wish.

In regards to social policies, you know what I meant, could also look at germany/canada/most of the industrialized world. Norway does more then export oil, and boohoo, the US has a huge economy and resources as well, it's a matter of what you prioritize spending on.

In regards to social policies, you know what I meant

Their social policies include very few immigrants.

Norway does more then export oil

Sure.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Oh right let's be more like Somalia. Great plan.

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well. Somalia?

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well.

The US pre-FDR.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.
Yeah, nothing like seniors being homeless in massive rates, a lack of a social safety net, a lack of guaranteed savings, a lack of regulation (Hm, what caused the great depression?)

hey vampire , not many people lived to 65 idiot back then.... Do you get it? The only reason why you think he was great was because of WWII it saved his legacy and new deal

The World - Life Before Social Security - A Great Calamity Has Come Upon Us - NYTimes.com

give me a break vampire, no one lived to 65 back then only the freaks

It was always a ponzi scheme that bit the left in the ass, with advances in medicine and the left still don't know what to do about it.

Now that the baby boomers are still around and retired.

 

[Socialist]

It's not what you think it is

Greece is a faraway country with an economy roughly the size of greater Miami, so America has very little direct stake in its ongoing disaster. To the extent that Greece matters to us, it’s mainly about geopolitics: By poisoning relations among Europe’s democracies, the Greek crisis risks depriving the United States of crucial allies.

But Greece has nonetheless played an outsized role in U.S. political debate, as a symbol of the terrible things that will supposedly happen — any day now — unless we stop helping the less fortunate and printing money to fight unemployment. And Greece does indeed offer important lessons to the rest of us. But they’re not the lessons you think, and the people most likely to deliver a Greek-style economic disaster here in America are the very people who love to use Greece as a boogeyman.

To understand the real lessons of Greece, you need to be aware of two crucial points.

Paul Krugman[/paste:font]
Macroeconomics, trade, health care, social policy and politics.

• Ending Greece’s BleedingJUL 5
• Europe’s Many Economic DisastersJUL 3
• Greece Over the BrinkJUN 29
• Hooray for ObamacareJUN 25
• Slavery’s Long ShadowJUN 22

See More »

The first is that the “We’re Greece!” crowd has a truly remarkable track record when it comes to economic forecasting: They’ve been wrong about everything, year after year, but refuse to learn from their mistakes. The people now saying that Greece offers an object lesson in the dangers of government debt, and that America is headed down the same road, are the same people who predicted soaring interest rates and runaway inflation in 2010; then, when it didn’t happen, they predicted soaring rates and runaway inflation in 2011; then, well, you get the picture.

The second is that the story you’ve heard about Greece — that it borrowed too much, and its excessive debt led to the current crisis — is seriously incomplete. Greece did indeed run up too much debt (with a lot of help from irresponsible lenders). But its debt, while high, wasn’t that high by historical standards. What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.

Consider Greece’s situation at the end of 2009, when its debt crisis burst into the open. At that point Greek government debt was near 130 percent of gross domestic product, which is definitely a big number. But it’s by no means unprecedented. As it happens, Greece’s debt ratio in 2009 was about the same as America’s in 1946, just after the war. And Britain’s debt ratio in 1946 was twice as high.

Today, however, Greek debt is over 170 percent of G.D.P. and still rising. Is that because Greece just kept on borrowing? Actually, no — Greek debt is up only 6 percent since 2009, although that’s partly because it received some debt relief in 2012. The main point, however, is that the ratio of debt to G.D.P. is up because G.D.P. is down by more than 20 percent. And why is GDP down? Largely because of the austerity measures Greece’s creditors forced it to impose.

Does this mean that austerity is always self-defeating? No, there are cases — for example, Canada in the 1990s — of countries that slashed their debt while maintaining growth and reducing unemployment. But if you look at how they managed this, it involved combining fiscal austerity with easy money: Canada in the ’90s drastically reduced interest rates, encouraging private spending, while allowing its currency to depreciate, encouraging exports.
Greece, unfortunately, no longer had its own currency when it was forced into drastic fiscal retrenchment. The result was an economic implosion that ended up making the debt problem even worse. Greece’s formula for disaster, in other words, didn’t just involve austerity; it involved the toxic combination of austerity with hard money.

So who wants to impose that kind of toxic policy mix on America? The answer is, most of the Republican Party.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

On the other side, leading Republicans like Representative Paul Ryan incessantly attack the Federal Reserve for its efforts to boost the economy, delivering solemn lectures on the evils of “debasing” the dollar — when the main difference between the effects of austerity in Canada and in Greece was precisely that Canada could “debase” its currency, while Greece couldn’t. Oh, and many Republicans hanker for a return to the gold standard, which would effectively put us into a euro-like straitjacket.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

You know the problem is that you are preaching to people (republicans) who don't even understand what socialism is. They see no difference between Norway and North Korea. They are that brainwashed. Fox News has them by the balls.

I wish the U.S. could be more like Norway but I doubt that will ever happen.

I wish the U.S. could be more like Norway but I doubt that will ever happen.

Their population is over 94% Norwegian.
Most of the rest are European.
And they're a huge oil exporter.

We'd better start deporting lots of legal immigrants, all our illegal aliens and start drilling in ANWR to fulfill your wish.

In regards to social policies, you know what I meant, could also look at germany/canada/most of the industrialized world. Norway does more then export oil, and boohoo, the US has a huge economy and resources as well, it's a matter of what you prioritize spending on.

In regards to social policies, you know what I meant

Their social policies include very few immigrants.

Norway does more then export oil

Sure.

Economy of Norway - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
The thing with immigrants is, you can cherrypick norway all you want, we all know what policies I'm talking about: UHC, higher level education, guaranteed maternity..

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It's not what you think it is
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

it sure is...don't be stupid like the Greeks and don't embrace socialism...reduce the size of government and increase individual freedom....works like a charm every timeout is tried...

Oh right let's be more like Somalia. Great plan.

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well. Somalia?

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well.

The US pre-FDR.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.
Yeah, nothing like seniors being homeless in massive rates, a lack of a social safety net, a lack of guaranteed savings, a lack of regulation (Hm, what caused the great depression?)

Yeah, nothing like seniors being homeless in massive rates

How many homeless seniors in 1928?

 

[Socialist]

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well. Somalia?

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well.

The US pre-FDR.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.
Yeah, nothing like seniors being homeless in massive rates, a lack of a social safety net, a lack of guaranteed savings, a lack of regulation (Hm, what caused the great depression?)

hey vampire , not many people lived to 65 idiot back then.... Do you get it? The only reason why you think he was great was because of WWII it saved his legacy and new deal

The World - Life Before Social Security - A Great Calamity Has Come Upon Us - NYTimes.com

give me a break vampire, no one lived to 65 back then only the freaks

It was always a ponzi scheme that bit the left in the ass, with advances in medicine and the left still don't know what to do about it.

Now that the baby boomers are still around and retired.

Only the freaks? No one lived to 65? What the fuck is wrong with you?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You know the problem is that you are preaching to people (republicans) who don't even understand what socialism is. They see no difference between Norway and North Korea. They are that brainwashed. Fox News has them by the balls.

I wish the U.S. could be more like Norway but I doubt that will ever happen.

Fuck you turd and $8 gallon of gas , Go there then

Republican response: HURR DURR. Norway has strong unions and higher wages due to this, alot of people in norway use public transporation, which is a better thing then individual car ownership in my opinion, plus, norway isn't that big.

And they still manage to have the 4th biggest national economy in the world.

Norway is the 4th biggest economy in the world?
Holy shit! You're stupid.

"4th biggest national economy in the world."

What the fuck is the difference?

 

[Socialist]

it sure is...don't be stupid like the Greeks and don't embrace socialism...reduce the size of government and increase individual freedom....works like a charm every timeout is tried...

Oh right let's be more like Somalia. Great plan.

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well. Somalia?

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well.

The US pre-FDR.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.
Yeah, nothing like seniors being homeless in massive rates, a lack of a social safety net, a lack of guaranteed savings, a lack of regulation (Hm, what caused the great depression?)

Yeah, nothing like seniors being homeless in massive rates

How many homeless seniors in 1928?

Worse then before social security, I can tell you that much.

 

[Billy000]

Fuck you turd and $8 gallon of gas , Go there then

Republican response: HURR DURR. Norway has strong unions and higher wages due to this, alot of people in norway use public transporation, which is a better thing then individual car ownership in my opinion, plus, norway isn't that big.

And they still manage to have the 4th biggest national economy in the world.

Norway is the 4th biggest economy in the world?
Holy shit! You're stupid.

"4th biggest national economy in the world."

What the fuck is the difference?

National you simpleton. I didn't say it had the 4th biggest economy. I said it had the 4th biggest national economy. Are you really this dumb?

 

[Socialist]

Fuck you turd and $8 gallon of gas , Go there then

Republican response: HURR DURR. Norway has strong unions and higher wages due to this, alot of people in norway use public transporation, which is a better thing then individual car ownership in my opinion, plus, norway isn't that big.

And they still manage to have the 4th biggest national economy in the world.

Norway is the 4th biggest economy in the world?
Holy shit! You're stupid.

"4th biggest national economy in the world."

What the fuck is the difference?

I've found what he's referring to:
The Richest Countries in The World Based on GDP Per Capita 2004-2014

 

[Wyatt earp]

Oh right let's be more like Somalia. Great plan.

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well. Somalia?

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well.

The US pre-FDR.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.
Yeah, nothing like seniors being homeless in massive rates, a lack of a social safety net, a lack of guaranteed savings, a lack of regulation (Hm, what caused the great depression?)

Yeah, nothing like seniors being homeless in massive rates

How many homeless seniors in 1928?

Worse then before social security, I can tell you that much.

yea we all know vampires live like 800 years so please enlighten us with your knowledge?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It's not what you think it is
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

You know the problem is that you are preaching to people (republicans) who don't even understand what socialism is. They see no difference between Norway and North Korea. They are that brainwashed. Fox News has them by the balls.

I wish the U.S. could be more like Norway but I doubt that will ever happen.

Yeah...we are too busy protecting them while they spend as much as they want on government benefits....while they get to keep their wealth from their North Sea oil rigs......imagine if they actually had to be responsible for their own national security and their people had to serve in heir military instead of living off of government hand outs.....but don't worry...a friend of mine...a Norwegian, said they are importing immigrants from violent 3rd world countries to do the work Norwegians won't do....and bringing their violent, misogynist cultures with them...

How the hell are we to busy protecting them? This argument is fucking retarded, our defense spending is more then the next top 8 countries combined, counting russia/china, and the UN nations/scandinavia are well fortified regardless of the US, and honestly, show me one example of us protecting them in the modern day. How much wealth do you think they get from oil? All nations have resources by the way, and what about countries like germany/finland/sweden/etc?

How much wealth do you think they get from oil?

They exported about 1.3 million barrels a day in 2012.
About 475 million barrels. Not bad for a nation with 5.1 million people.

Yes, but I mean as a percent of what they're bringing in. Many countries are resource rich, and many get by fine with generous state programs like germany/etc..

GDP in 2012 was about $330 billion.
At $100/bbl, that's 14% of GDP, just from oil exports.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It's not what you think it is

Greece is a faraway country with an economy roughly the size of greater Miami, so America has very little direct stake in its ongoing disaster. To the extent that Greece matters to us, it’s mainly about geopolitics: By poisoning relations among Europe’s democracies, the Greek crisis risks depriving the United States of crucial allies.

But Greece has nonetheless played an outsized role in U.S. political debate, as a symbol of the terrible things that will supposedly happen — any day now — unless we stop helping the less fortunate and printing money to fight unemployment. And Greece does indeed offer important lessons to the rest of us. But they’re not the lessons you think, and the people most likely to deliver a Greek-style economic disaster here in America are the very people who love to use Greece as a boogeyman.

To understand the real lessons of Greece, you need to be aware of two crucial points.

Paul Krugman[/paste:font]
Macroeconomics, trade, health care, social policy and politics.

• Ending Greece’s BleedingJUL 5
• Europe’s Many Economic DisastersJUL 3
• Greece Over the BrinkJUN 29
• Hooray for ObamacareJUN 25
• Slavery’s Long ShadowJUN 22

See More »

The first is that the “We’re Greece!” crowd has a truly remarkable track record when it comes to economic forecasting: They’ve been wrong about everything, year after year, but refuse to learn from their mistakes. The people now saying that Greece offers an object lesson in the dangers of government debt, and that America is headed down the same road, are the same people who predicted soaring interest rates and runaway inflation in 2010; then, when it didn’t happen, they predicted soaring rates and runaway inflation in 2011; then, well, you get the picture.

The second is that the story you’ve heard about Greece — that it borrowed too much, and its excessive debt led to the current crisis — is seriously incomplete. Greece did indeed run up too much debt (with a lot of help from irresponsible lenders). But its debt, while high, wasn’t that high by historical standards. What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.

Consider Greece’s situation at the end of 2009, when its debt crisis burst into the open. At that point Greek government debt was near 130 percent of gross domestic product, which is definitely a big number. But it’s by no means unprecedented. As it happens, Greece’s debt ratio in 2009 was about the same as America’s in 1946, just after the war. And Britain’s debt ratio in 1946 was twice as high.

Today, however, Greek debt is over 170 percent of G.D.P. and still rising. Is that because Greece just kept on borrowing? Actually, no — Greek debt is up only 6 percent since 2009, although that’s partly because it received some debt relief in 2012. The main point, however, is that the ratio of debt to G.D.P. is up because G.D.P. is down by more than 20 percent. And why is GDP down? Largely because of the austerity measures Greece’s creditors forced it to impose.

Does this mean that austerity is always self-defeating? No, there are cases — for example, Canada in the 1990s — of countries that slashed their debt while maintaining growth and reducing unemployment. But if you look at how they managed this, it involved combining fiscal austerity with easy money: Canada in the ’90s drastically reduced interest rates, encouraging private spending, while allowing its currency to depreciate, encouraging exports.
Greece, unfortunately, no longer had its own currency when it was forced into drastic fiscal retrenchment. The result was an economic implosion that ended up making the debt problem even worse. Greece’s formula for disaster, in other words, didn’t just involve austerity; it involved the toxic combination of austerity with hard money.

So who wants to impose that kind of toxic policy mix on America? The answer is, most of the Republican Party.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

On the other side, leading Republicans like Representative Paul Ryan incessantly attack the Federal Reserve for its efforts to boost the economy, delivering solemn lectures on the evils of “debasing” the dollar — when the main difference between the effects of austerity in Canada and in Greece was precisely that Canada could “debase” its currency, while Greece couldn’t. Oh, and many Republicans hanker for a return to the gold standard, which would effectively put us into a euro-like straitjacket.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.
If your government spends 59% of GDP, you're doing your austerity wrong.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

Greece wants to increase welfare and pension payments and raise taxes.
That's a great way to increase domestic production and employment. Not!

Err, the problem with greece was mainly tax evasion/the retirement problem, other "welfare" states are doing amazing.

Err, the problem with greece was mainly tax evasion

When the government is spending 59% of GDP, tax evasion isn't your biggest problem.

I'm sorry:
Government spending - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Greece mainly failed due to tax evasion and the early retirement, try again nut.

Even if they managed to collect 59% of GDP in taxes, they'd still be fucked.

 

[Socialist]

You know the problem is that you are preaching to people (republicans) who don't even understand what socialism is. They see no difference between Norway and North Korea. They are that brainwashed. Fox News has them by the balls.

I wish the U.S. could be more like Norway but I doubt that will ever happen.

Yeah...we are too busy protecting them while they spend as much as they want on government benefits....while they get to keep their wealth from their North Sea oil rigs......imagine if they actually had to be responsible for their own national security and their people had to serve in heir military instead of living off of government hand outs.....but don't worry...a friend of mine...a Norwegian, said they are importing immigrants from violent 3rd world countries to do the work Norwegians won't do....and bringing their violent, misogynist cultures with them...

How the hell are we to busy protecting them? This argument is fucking retarded, our defense spending is more then the next top 8 countries combined, counting russia/china, and the UN nations/scandinavia are well fortified regardless of the US, and honestly, show me one example of us protecting them in the modern day. How much wealth do you think they get from oil? All nations have resources by the way, and what about countries like germany/finland/sweden/etc?

How much wealth do you think they get from oil?

They exported about 1.3 million barrels a day in 2012.
About 475 million barrels. Not bad for a nation with 5.1 million people.

Yes, but I mean as a percent of what they're bringing in. Many countries are resource rich, and many get by fine with generous state programs like germany/etc..

GDP in 2012 was about $330 billion.
At $100/bbl, that's 14% of GDP, just from oil exports.

I rest my case.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Oh right let's be more like Somalia. Great plan.

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well. Somalia?

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well.

The US pre-FDR.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.
Yeah, nothing like seniors being homeless in massive rates, a lack of a social safety net, a lack of guaranteed savings, a lack of regulation (Hm, what caused the great depression?)

Yeah, nothing like seniors being homeless in massive rates

How many homeless seniors in 1928?

Worse then before social security, I can tell you that much.

So you can't back up your claim, I'm shocked!

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Republican response: HURR DURR. Norway has strong unions and higher wages due to this, alot of people in norway use public transporation, which is a better thing then individual car ownership in my opinion, plus, norway isn't that big.

And they still manage to have the 4th biggest national economy in the world.

Norway is the 4th biggest economy in the world?
Holy shit! You're stupid.

"4th biggest national economy in the world."

What the fuck is the difference?

National you simpleton. I didn't say it had the 4th biggest economy. I said it had the 4th biggest national economy. Are you really this dumb?

I said it had the 4th biggest national economy.

Explain the difference between a nation's economy and a national economy.