Greece’s Economy Is a Lesson for Republicans in the U.S.

[Socialist]

Here's a lesson for you Socialist, shut it!

Wow, great way to contribute.

 

[Socialist]

It's not what you think it is

Greece is a faraway country with an economy roughly the size of greater Miami, so America has very little direct stake in its ongoing disaster. To the extent that Greece matters to us, it’s mainly about geopolitics: By poisoning relations among Europe’s democracies, the Greek crisis risks depriving the United States of crucial allies.

But Greece has nonetheless played an outsized role in U.S. political debate, as a symbol of the terrible things that will supposedly happen — any day now — unless we stop helping the less fortunate and printing money to fight unemployment. And Greece does indeed offer important lessons to the rest of us. But they’re not the lessons you think, and the people most likely to deliver a Greek-style economic disaster here in America are the very people who love to use Greece as a boogeyman.

To understand the real lessons of Greece, you need to be aware of two crucial points.

Paul Krugman[/paste:font]
Macroeconomics, trade, health care, social policy and politics.

• Ending Greece’s BleedingJUL 5
• Europe’s Many Economic DisastersJUL 3
• Greece Over the BrinkJUN 29
• Hooray for ObamacareJUN 25
• Slavery’s Long ShadowJUN 22

See More »

The first is that the “We’re Greece!” crowd has a truly remarkable track record when it comes to economic forecasting: They’ve been wrong about everything, year after year, but refuse to learn from their mistakes. The people now saying that Greece offers an object lesson in the dangers of government debt, and that America is headed down the same road, are the same people who predicted soaring interest rates and runaway inflation in 2010; then, when it didn’t happen, they predicted soaring rates and runaway inflation in 2011; then, well, you get the picture.

The second is that the story you’ve heard about Greece — that it borrowed too much, and its excessive debt led to the current crisis — is seriously incomplete. Greece did indeed run up too much debt (with a lot of help from irresponsible lenders). But its debt, while high, wasn’t that high by historical standards. What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.

Consider Greece’s situation at the end of 2009, when its debt crisis burst into the open. At that point Greek government debt was near 130 percent of gross domestic product, which is definitely a big number. But it’s by no means unprecedented. As it happens, Greece’s debt ratio in 2009 was about the same as America’s in 1946, just after the war. And Britain’s debt ratio in 1946 was twice as high.

Today, however, Greek debt is over 170 percent of G.D.P. and still rising. Is that because Greece just kept on borrowing? Actually, no — Greek debt is up only 6 percent since 2009, although that’s partly because it received some debt relief in 2012. The main point, however, is that the ratio of debt to G.D.P. is up because G.D.P. is down by more than 20 percent. And why is GDP down? Largely because of the austerity measures Greece’s creditors forced it to impose.

Does this mean that austerity is always self-defeating? No, there are cases — for example, Canada in the 1990s — of countries that slashed their debt while maintaining growth and reducing unemployment. But if you look at how they managed this, it involved combining fiscal austerity with easy money: Canada in the ’90s drastically reduced interest rates, encouraging private spending, while allowing its currency to depreciate, encouraging exports.
Greece, unfortunately, no longer had its own currency when it was forced into drastic fiscal retrenchment. The result was an economic implosion that ended up making the debt problem even worse. Greece’s formula for disaster, in other words, didn’t just involve austerity; it involved the toxic combination of austerity with hard money.

So who wants to impose that kind of toxic policy mix on America? The answer is, most of the Republican Party.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

On the other side, leading Republicans like Representative Paul Ryan incessantly attack the Federal Reserve for its efforts to boost the economy, delivering solemn lectures on the evils of “debasing” the dollar — when the main difference between the effects of austerity in Canada and in Greece was precisely that Canada could “debase” its currency, while Greece couldn’t. Oh, and many Republicans hanker for a return to the gold standard, which would effectively put us into a euro-like straitjacket.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

You know the problem is that you are preaching to people (republicans) who don't even understand what socialism is. They see no difference between Norway and North Korea. They are that brainwashed. Fox News has them by the balls.

I wish the U.S. could be more like Norway but I doubt that will ever happen.

Yeah...we are too busy protecting them while they spend as much as they want on government benefits....while they get to keep their wealth from their North Sea oil rigs......imagine if they actually had to be responsible for their own national security and their people had to serve in heir military instead of living off of government hand outs.....but don't worry...a friend of mine...a Norwegian, said they are importing immigrants from violent 3rd world countries to do the work Norwegians won't do....and bringing their violent, misogynist cultures with them...

How the hell are we to busy protecting them? This argument is fucking retarded, our defense spending is more then the next top 8 countries combined, counting russia/china, and the UN nations/scandinavia are well fortified regardless of the US, and honestly, show me one example of us protecting them in the modern day. How much wealth do you think they get from oil? All nations have resources by the way, and what about countries like germany/finland/sweden/etc?

 

[Socialist]

The biggest lesson to be learned from the Greek economic collapse is that government entitlements will sink you like the Ice berg sunk the Titanic. Too many government employees retiring far too early on way too fat pensions = FAIL.

Yeah, not like greece suffered from mass tax evasion. The main problem was the retirement age problem and people dodging taxes, that's it. Many countries with government "entitlements" are doing amazing.

 

[Socialist]

It's not what you think it is

Greece is a faraway country with an economy roughly the size of greater Miami, so America has very little direct stake in its ongoing disaster. To the extent that Greece matters to us, it’s mainly about geopolitics: By poisoning relations among Europe’s democracies, the Greek crisis risks depriving the United States of crucial allies.

But Greece has nonetheless played an outsized role in U.S. political debate, as a symbol of the terrible things that will supposedly happen — any day now — unless we stop helping the less fortunate and printing money to fight unemployment. And Greece does indeed offer important lessons to the rest of us. But they’re not the lessons you think, and the people most likely to deliver a Greek-style economic disaster here in America are the very people who love to use Greece as a boogeyman.

To understand the real lessons of Greece, you need to be aware of two crucial points.

Paul Krugman[/paste:font]
Macroeconomics, trade, health care, social policy and politics.

• Ending Greece’s BleedingJUL 5
• Europe’s Many Economic DisastersJUL 3
• Greece Over the BrinkJUN 29
• Hooray for ObamacareJUN 25
• Slavery’s Long ShadowJUN 22

See More »

The first is that the “We’re Greece!” crowd has a truly remarkable track record when it comes to economic forecasting: They’ve been wrong about everything, year after year, but refuse to learn from their mistakes. The people now saying that Greece offers an object lesson in the dangers of government debt, and that America is headed down the same road, are the same people who predicted soaring interest rates and runaway inflation in 2010; then, when it didn’t happen, they predicted soaring rates and runaway inflation in 2011; then, well, you get the picture.

The second is that the story you’ve heard about Greece — that it borrowed too much, and its excessive debt led to the current crisis — is seriously incomplete. Greece did indeed run up too much debt (with a lot of help from irresponsible lenders). But its debt, while high, wasn’t that high by historical standards. What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.

Consider Greece’s situation at the end of 2009, when its debt crisis burst into the open. At that point Greek government debt was near 130 percent of gross domestic product, which is definitely a big number. But it’s by no means unprecedented. As it happens, Greece’s debt ratio in 2009 was about the same as America’s in 1946, just after the war. And Britain’s debt ratio in 1946 was twice as high.

Today, however, Greek debt is over 170 percent of G.D.P. and still rising. Is that because Greece just kept on borrowing? Actually, no — Greek debt is up only 6 percent since 2009, although that’s partly because it received some debt relief in 2012. The main point, however, is that the ratio of debt to G.D.P. is up because G.D.P. is down by more than 20 percent. And why is GDP down? Largely because of the austerity measures Greece’s creditors forced it to impose.

Does this mean that austerity is always self-defeating? No, there are cases — for example, Canada in the 1990s — of countries that slashed their debt while maintaining growth and reducing unemployment. But if you look at how they managed this, it involved combining fiscal austerity with easy money: Canada in the ’90s drastically reduced interest rates, encouraging private spending, while allowing its currency to depreciate, encouraging exports.
Greece, unfortunately, no longer had its own currency when it was forced into drastic fiscal retrenchment. The result was an economic implosion that ended up making the debt problem even worse. Greece’s formula for disaster, in other words, didn’t just involve austerity; it involved the toxic combination of austerity with hard money.

So who wants to impose that kind of toxic policy mix on America? The answer is, most of the Republican Party.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

On the other side, leading Republicans like Representative Paul Ryan incessantly attack the Federal Reserve for its efforts to boost the economy, delivering solemn lectures on the evils of “debasing” the dollar — when the main difference between the effects of austerity in Canada and in Greece was precisely that Canada could “debase” its currency, while Greece couldn’t. Oh, and many Republicans hanker for a return to the gold standard, which would effectively put us into a euro-like straitjacket.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

it sure is...don't be stupid like the Greeks and don't embrace socialism...reduce the size of government and increase individual freedom....works like a charm every timeout is tried...

Oh right let's be more like Somalia. Great plan.

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well. Somalia?

the U.S. Before Roosevelt....then he made the depression "Great" and began the destructive increase in e size of our government....

A better question....which country prospered and became great with huge governments.....and didn't March their people into death camps....?

LOL. Yeah, you're truly delusional. Senior homelessness was rampant, people were desperate and it was a horrible time..

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It's not what you think it is

Greece is a faraway country with an economy roughly the size of greater Miami, so America has very little direct stake in its ongoing disaster. To the extent that Greece matters to us, it’s mainly about geopolitics: By poisoning relations among Europe’s democracies, the Greek crisis risks depriving the United States of crucial allies.

But Greece has nonetheless played an outsized role in U.S. political debate, as a symbol of the terrible things that will supposedly happen — any day now — unless we stop helping the less fortunate and printing money to fight unemployment. And Greece does indeed offer important lessons to the rest of us. But they’re not the lessons you think, and the people most likely to deliver a Greek-style economic disaster here in America are the very people who love to use Greece as a boogeyman.

To understand the real lessons of Greece, you need to be aware of two crucial points.

Paul Krugman[/paste:font]
Macroeconomics, trade, health care, social policy and politics.

• Ending Greece’s BleedingJUL 5
• Europe’s Many Economic DisastersJUL 3
• Greece Over the BrinkJUN 29
• Hooray for ObamacareJUN 25
• Slavery’s Long ShadowJUN 22

See More »

The first is that the “We’re Greece!” crowd has a truly remarkable track record when it comes to economic forecasting: They’ve been wrong about everything, year after year, but refuse to learn from their mistakes. The people now saying that Greece offers an object lesson in the dangers of government debt, and that America is headed down the same road, are the same people who predicted soaring interest rates and runaway inflation in 2010; then, when it didn’t happen, they predicted soaring rates and runaway inflation in 2011; then, well, you get the picture.

The second is that the story you’ve heard about Greece — that it borrowed too much, and its excessive debt led to the current crisis — is seriously incomplete. Greece did indeed run up too much debt (with a lot of help from irresponsible lenders). But its debt, while high, wasn’t that high by historical standards. What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.

Consider Greece’s situation at the end of 2009, when its debt crisis burst into the open. At that point Greek government debt was near 130 percent of gross domestic product, which is definitely a big number. But it’s by no means unprecedented. As it happens, Greece’s debt ratio in 2009 was about the same as America’s in 1946, just after the war. And Britain’s debt ratio in 1946 was twice as high.

Today, however, Greek debt is over 170 percent of G.D.P. and still rising. Is that because Greece just kept on borrowing? Actually, no — Greek debt is up only 6 percent since 2009, although that’s partly because it received some debt relief in 2012. The main point, however, is that the ratio of debt to G.D.P. is up because G.D.P. is down by more than 20 percent. And why is GDP down? Largely because of the austerity measures Greece’s creditors forced it to impose.

Does this mean that austerity is always self-defeating? No, there are cases — for example, Canada in the 1990s — of countries that slashed their debt while maintaining growth and reducing unemployment. But if you look at how they managed this, it involved combining fiscal austerity with easy money: Canada in the ’90s drastically reduced interest rates, encouraging private spending, while allowing its currency to depreciate, encouraging exports.
Greece, unfortunately, no longer had its own currency when it was forced into drastic fiscal retrenchment. The result was an economic implosion that ended up making the debt problem even worse. Greece’s formula for disaster, in other words, didn’t just involve austerity; it involved the toxic combination of austerity with hard money.

So who wants to impose that kind of toxic policy mix on America? The answer is, most of the Republican Party.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

On the other side, leading Republicans like Representative Paul Ryan incessantly attack the Federal Reserve for its efforts to boost the economy, delivering solemn lectures on the evils of “debasing” the dollar — when the main difference between the effects of austerity in Canada and in Greece was precisely that Canada could “debase” its currency, while Greece couldn’t. Oh, and many Republicans hanker for a return to the gold standard, which would effectively put us into a euro-like straitjacket.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

You know the problem is that you are preaching to people (republicans) who don't even understand what socialism is. They see no difference between Norway and North Korea. They are that brainwashed. Fox News has them by the balls.

I wish the U.S. could be more like Norway but I doubt that will ever happen.

I wish the U.S. could be more like Norway but I doubt that will ever happen.

Their population is over 94% Norwegian.
Most of the rest are European.
And they're a huge oil exporter.

We'd better start deporting lots of legal immigrants, all our illegal aliens and start drilling in ANWR to fulfill your wish.

 

[Socialist]

It's not what you think it is

Greece is a faraway country with an economy roughly the size of greater Miami, so America has very little direct stake in its ongoing disaster. To the extent that Greece matters to us, it’s mainly about geopolitics: By poisoning relations among Europe’s democracies, the Greek crisis risks depriving the United States of crucial allies.

But Greece has nonetheless played an outsized role in U.S. political debate, as a symbol of the terrible things that will supposedly happen — any day now — unless we stop helping the less fortunate and printing money to fight unemployment. And Greece does indeed offer important lessons to the rest of us. But they’re not the lessons you think, and the people most likely to deliver a Greek-style economic disaster here in America are the very people who love to use Greece as a boogeyman.

To understand the real lessons of Greece, you need to be aware of two crucial points.

Paul Krugman[/paste:font]
Macroeconomics, trade, health care, social policy and politics.

• Ending Greece’s BleedingJUL 5
• Europe’s Many Economic DisastersJUL 3
• Greece Over the BrinkJUN 29
• Hooray for ObamacareJUN 25
• Slavery’s Long ShadowJUN 22

See More »

The first is that the “We’re Greece!” crowd has a truly remarkable track record when it comes to economic forecasting: They’ve been wrong about everything, year after year, but refuse to learn from their mistakes. The people now saying that Greece offers an object lesson in the dangers of government debt, and that America is headed down the same road, are the same people who predicted soaring interest rates and runaway inflation in 2010; then, when it didn’t happen, they predicted soaring rates and runaway inflation in 2011; then, well, you get the picture.

The second is that the story you’ve heard about Greece — that it borrowed too much, and its excessive debt led to the current crisis — is seriously incomplete. Greece did indeed run up too much debt (with a lot of help from irresponsible lenders). But its debt, while high, wasn’t that high by historical standards. What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.

Consider Greece’s situation at the end of 2009, when its debt crisis burst into the open. At that point Greek government debt was near 130 percent of gross domestic product, which is definitely a big number. But it’s by no means unprecedented. As it happens, Greece’s debt ratio in 2009 was about the same as America’s in 1946, just after the war. And Britain’s debt ratio in 1946 was twice as high.

Today, however, Greek debt is over 170 percent of G.D.P. and still rising. Is that because Greece just kept on borrowing? Actually, no — Greek debt is up only 6 percent since 2009, although that’s partly because it received some debt relief in 2012. The main point, however, is that the ratio of debt to G.D.P. is up because G.D.P. is down by more than 20 percent. And why is GDP down? Largely because of the austerity measures Greece’s creditors forced it to impose.

Does this mean that austerity is always self-defeating? No, there are cases — for example, Canada in the 1990s — of countries that slashed their debt while maintaining growth and reducing unemployment. But if you look at how they managed this, it involved combining fiscal austerity with easy money: Canada in the ’90s drastically reduced interest rates, encouraging private spending, while allowing its currency to depreciate, encouraging exports.
Greece, unfortunately, no longer had its own currency when it was forced into drastic fiscal retrenchment. The result was an economic implosion that ended up making the debt problem even worse. Greece’s formula for disaster, in other words, didn’t just involve austerity; it involved the toxic combination of austerity with hard money.

So who wants to impose that kind of toxic policy mix on America? The answer is, most of the Republican Party.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

On the other side, leading Republicans like Representative Paul Ryan incessantly attack the Federal Reserve for its efforts to boost the economy, delivering solemn lectures on the evils of “debasing” the dollar — when the main difference between the effects of austerity in Canada and in Greece was precisely that Canada could “debase” its currency, while Greece couldn’t. Oh, and many Republicans hanker for a return to the gold standard, which would effectively put us into a euro-like straitjacket.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.
If your government spends 59% of GDP, you're doing your austerity wrong.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

Greece wants to increase welfare and pension payments and raise taxes.
That's a great way to increase domestic production and employment. Not!

Err, the problem with greece was mainly tax evasion/the retirement problem, other "welfare" states are doing amazing.

 

[BluesLegend]

Here's a lesson for you Socialist, shut it!

Wow, great way to contribute.

I don't debate with socialist punks I destroy their lies and propaganda.

 

[Socialist]

It's not what you think it is

Greece is a faraway country with an economy roughly the size of greater Miami, so America has very little direct stake in its ongoing disaster. To the extent that Greece matters to us, it’s mainly about geopolitics: By poisoning relations among Europe’s democracies, the Greek crisis risks depriving the United States of crucial allies.

But Greece has nonetheless played an outsized role in U.S. political debate, as a symbol of the terrible things that will supposedly happen — any day now — unless we stop helping the less fortunate and printing money to fight unemployment. And Greece does indeed offer important lessons to the rest of us. But they’re not the lessons you think, and the people most likely to deliver a Greek-style economic disaster here in America are the very people who love to use Greece as a boogeyman.

To understand the real lessons of Greece, you need to be aware of two crucial points.

Paul Krugman[/paste:font]
Macroeconomics, trade, health care, social policy and politics.

• Ending Greece’s BleedingJUL 5
• Europe’s Many Economic DisastersJUL 3
• Greece Over the BrinkJUN 29
• Hooray for ObamacareJUN 25
• Slavery’s Long ShadowJUN 22

See More »

The first is that the “We’re Greece!” crowd has a truly remarkable track record when it comes to economic forecasting: They’ve been wrong about everything, year after year, but refuse to learn from their mistakes. The people now saying that Greece offers an object lesson in the dangers of government debt, and that America is headed down the same road, are the same people who predicted soaring interest rates and runaway inflation in 2010; then, when it didn’t happen, they predicted soaring rates and runaway inflation in 2011; then, well, you get the picture.

The second is that the story you’ve heard about Greece — that it borrowed too much, and its excessive debt led to the current crisis — is seriously incomplete. Greece did indeed run up too much debt (with a lot of help from irresponsible lenders). But its debt, while high, wasn’t that high by historical standards. What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.

Consider Greece’s situation at the end of 2009, when its debt crisis burst into the open. At that point Greek government debt was near 130 percent of gross domestic product, which is definitely a big number. But it’s by no means unprecedented. As it happens, Greece’s debt ratio in 2009 was about the same as America’s in 1946, just after the war. And Britain’s debt ratio in 1946 was twice as high.

Today, however, Greek debt is over 170 percent of G.D.P. and still rising. Is that because Greece just kept on borrowing? Actually, no — Greek debt is up only 6 percent since 2009, although that’s partly because it received some debt relief in 2012. The main point, however, is that the ratio of debt to G.D.P. is up because G.D.P. is down by more than 20 percent. And why is GDP down? Largely because of the austerity measures Greece’s creditors forced it to impose.

Does this mean that austerity is always self-defeating? No, there are cases — for example, Canada in the 1990s — of countries that slashed their debt while maintaining growth and reducing unemployment. But if you look at how they managed this, it involved combining fiscal austerity with easy money: Canada in the ’90s drastically reduced interest rates, encouraging private spending, while allowing its currency to depreciate, encouraging exports.
Greece, unfortunately, no longer had its own currency when it was forced into drastic fiscal retrenchment. The result was an economic implosion that ended up making the debt problem even worse. Greece’s formula for disaster, in other words, didn’t just involve austerity; it involved the toxic combination of austerity with hard money.

So who wants to impose that kind of toxic policy mix on America? The answer is, most of the Republican Party.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

On the other side, leading Republicans like Representative Paul Ryan incessantly attack the Federal Reserve for its efforts to boost the economy, delivering solemn lectures on the evils of “debasing” the dollar — when the main difference between the effects of austerity in Canada and in Greece was precisely that Canada could “debase” its currency, while Greece couldn’t. Oh, and many Republicans hanker for a return to the gold standard, which would effectively put us into a euro-like straitjacket.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

You know the problem is that you are preaching to people (republicans) who don't even understand what socialism is. They see no difference between Norway and North Korea. They are that brainwashed. Fox News has them by the balls.

I wish the U.S. could be more like Norway but I doubt that will ever happen.

I wish the U.S. could be more like Norway but I doubt that will ever happen.

Their population is over 94% Norwegian.
Most of the rest are European.
And they're a huge oil exporter.

We'd better start deporting lots of legal immigrants, all our illegal aliens and start drilling in ANWR to fulfill your wish.

In regards to social policies, you know what I meant, could also look at germany/canada/most of the industrialized world. Norway does more then export oil, and boohoo, the US has a huge economy and resources as well, it's a matter of what you prioritize spending on.

 

[SAYIT]

The biggest lesson to be learned from the Greek economic collapse is that government entitlements will sink you like the Ice berg sunk the Titanic. Too many government employees retiring far too early on way too fat pensions = FAIL.

And many American cities are now reaping what was sown decades ago when Democrat mayors gave public union members generous pension benefits in exchange for votes. Today those cities must scrimp on current operating expenses (schools, courts, streets, public safety) in order to pay many former employees who no longer even live in those cities. They even have a term for it ... "the pension bomb."

 

[Socialist]

Here's a lesson for you Socialist, shut it!

Wow, great way to contribute.

I don't debate with socialist punks I destroy their lies and propaganda.

I truly hope you're not another bripat who claims the WHO is a marxist propaganda mill.

 

[2aguy]

It's not what you think it is
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

it sure is...don't be stupid like the Greeks and don't embrace socialism...reduce the size of government and increase individual freedom....works like a charm every timeout is tried...

Oh right let's be more like Somalia. Great plan.

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well. Somalia?

the U.S. Before Roosevelt....then he made the depression "Great" and began the destructive increase in e size of our government....

A better question....which country prospered and became great with huge governments.....and didn't March their people into death camps....?

LOL. Yeah, you're truly delusional. Senior homelessness was rampant, people were desperate and it was a horrible time..

and FDR made it worse....so bad we didn't recover till after World War 2..... The first time a depression lasted that long....because he raised taxes, tarrifs and increased government spending, taking money away from the very people who could have fixed the economy...

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It's not what you think it is

Greece is a faraway country with an economy roughly the size of greater Miami, so America has very little direct stake in its ongoing disaster. To the extent that Greece matters to us, it’s mainly about geopolitics: By poisoning relations among Europe’s democracies, the Greek crisis risks depriving the United States of crucial allies.

But Greece has nonetheless played an outsized role in U.S. political debate, as a symbol of the terrible things that will supposedly happen — any day now — unless we stop helping the less fortunate and printing money to fight unemployment. And Greece does indeed offer important lessons to the rest of us. But they’re not the lessons you think, and the people most likely to deliver a Greek-style economic disaster here in America are the very people who love to use Greece as a boogeyman.

To understand the real lessons of Greece, you need to be aware of two crucial points.

Paul Krugman[/paste:font]
Macroeconomics, trade, health care, social policy and politics.

• Ending Greece’s BleedingJUL 5
• Europe’s Many Economic DisastersJUL 3
• Greece Over the BrinkJUN 29
• Hooray for ObamacareJUN 25
• Slavery’s Long ShadowJUN 22

See More »

The first is that the “We’re Greece!” crowd has a truly remarkable track record when it comes to economic forecasting: They’ve been wrong about everything, year after year, but refuse to learn from their mistakes. The people now saying that Greece offers an object lesson in the dangers of government debt, and that America is headed down the same road, are the same people who predicted soaring interest rates and runaway inflation in 2010; then, when it didn’t happen, they predicted soaring rates and runaway inflation in 2011; then, well, you get the picture.

The second is that the story you’ve heard about Greece — that it borrowed too much, and its excessive debt led to the current crisis — is seriously incomplete. Greece did indeed run up too much debt (with a lot of help from irresponsible lenders). But its debt, while high, wasn’t that high by historical standards. What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.

Consider Greece’s situation at the end of 2009, when its debt crisis burst into the open. At that point Greek government debt was near 130 percent of gross domestic product, which is definitely a big number. But it’s by no means unprecedented. As it happens, Greece’s debt ratio in 2009 was about the same as America’s in 1946, just after the war. And Britain’s debt ratio in 1946 was twice as high.

Today, however, Greek debt is over 170 percent of G.D.P. and still rising. Is that because Greece just kept on borrowing? Actually, no — Greek debt is up only 6 percent since 2009, although that’s partly because it received some debt relief in 2012. The main point, however, is that the ratio of debt to G.D.P. is up because G.D.P. is down by more than 20 percent. And why is GDP down? Largely because of the austerity measures Greece’s creditors forced it to impose.

Does this mean that austerity is always self-defeating? No, there are cases — for example, Canada in the 1990s — of countries that slashed their debt while maintaining growth and reducing unemployment. But if you look at how they managed this, it involved combining fiscal austerity with easy money: Canada in the ’90s drastically reduced interest rates, encouraging private spending, while allowing its currency to depreciate, encouraging exports.
Greece, unfortunately, no longer had its own currency when it was forced into drastic fiscal retrenchment. The result was an economic implosion that ended up making the debt problem even worse. Greece’s formula for disaster, in other words, didn’t just involve austerity; it involved the toxic combination of austerity with hard money.

So who wants to impose that kind of toxic policy mix on America? The answer is, most of the Republican Party.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

On the other side, leading Republicans like Representative Paul Ryan incessantly attack the Federal Reserve for its efforts to boost the economy, delivering solemn lectures on the evils of “debasing” the dollar — when the main difference between the effects of austerity in Canada and in Greece was precisely that Canada could “debase” its currency, while Greece couldn’t. Oh, and many Republicans hanker for a return to the gold standard, which would effectively put us into a euro-like straitjacket.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

it sure is...don't be stupid like the Greeks and don't embrace socialism...reduce the size of government and increase individual freedom....works like a charm every timeout is tried...

Oh right let's be more like Somalia. Great plan.

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well. Somalia?

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well.

The US pre-FDR.

 

[Socialist]

it sure is...don't be stupid like the Greeks and don't embrace socialism...reduce the size of government and increase individual freedom....works like a charm every timeout is tried...

Oh right let's be more like Somalia. Great plan.

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well. Somalia?

the U.S. Before Roosevelt....then he made the depression "Great" and began the destructive increase in e size of our government....

A better question....which country prospered and became great with huge governments.....and didn't March their people into death camps....?

LOL. Yeah, you're truly delusional. Senior homelessness was rampant, people were desperate and it was a horrible time..

and FDR made it worse....so bad we didn't recover till after World War 2..... The first time a depression lasted that long....because he raised taxes, tarrifs and increased government spending, taking money away from the very people who could have fixed the economy...

LOL. That is ridiculous, and it's stupid you would go with revisionist history. The accomplishments of FDR are amazing, and let's not forget he was dealing with a fucking depression, among other things. LOL. "Fixed the economy" Yeah, like the rich were doing all they can to fix it before FDR..

 

[Socialist]

It's not what you think it is

Greece is a faraway country with an economy roughly the size of greater Miami, so America has very little direct stake in its ongoing disaster. To the extent that Greece matters to us, it’s mainly about geopolitics: By poisoning relations among Europe’s democracies, the Greek crisis risks depriving the United States of crucial allies.

But Greece has nonetheless played an outsized role in U.S. political debate, as a symbol of the terrible things that will supposedly happen — any day now — unless we stop helping the less fortunate and printing money to fight unemployment. And Greece does indeed offer important lessons to the rest of us. But they’re not the lessons you think, and the people most likely to deliver a Greek-style economic disaster here in America are the very people who love to use Greece as a boogeyman.

To understand the real lessons of Greece, you need to be aware of two crucial points.

Paul Krugman[/paste:font]
Macroeconomics, trade, health care, social policy and politics.

• Ending Greece’s BleedingJUL 5
• Europe’s Many Economic DisastersJUL 3
• Greece Over the BrinkJUN 29
• Hooray for ObamacareJUN 25
• Slavery’s Long ShadowJUN 22

See More »

The first is that the “We’re Greece!” crowd has a truly remarkable track record when it comes to economic forecasting: They’ve been wrong about everything, year after year, but refuse to learn from their mistakes. The people now saying that Greece offers an object lesson in the dangers of government debt, and that America is headed down the same road, are the same people who predicted soaring interest rates and runaway inflation in 2010; then, when it didn’t happen, they predicted soaring rates and runaway inflation in 2011; then, well, you get the picture.

The second is that the story you’ve heard about Greece — that it borrowed too much, and its excessive debt led to the current crisis — is seriously incomplete. Greece did indeed run up too much debt (with a lot of help from irresponsible lenders). But its debt, while high, wasn’t that high by historical standards. What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.

Consider Greece’s situation at the end of 2009, when its debt crisis burst into the open. At that point Greek government debt was near 130 percent of gross domestic product, which is definitely a big number. But it’s by no means unprecedented. As it happens, Greece’s debt ratio in 2009 was about the same as America’s in 1946, just after the war. And Britain’s debt ratio in 1946 was twice as high.

Today, however, Greek debt is over 170 percent of G.D.P. and still rising. Is that because Greece just kept on borrowing? Actually, no — Greek debt is up only 6 percent since 2009, although that’s partly because it received some debt relief in 2012. The main point, however, is that the ratio of debt to G.D.P. is up because G.D.P. is down by more than 20 percent. And why is GDP down? Largely because of the austerity measures Greece’s creditors forced it to impose.

Does this mean that austerity is always self-defeating? No, there are cases — for example, Canada in the 1990s — of countries that slashed their debt while maintaining growth and reducing unemployment. But if you look at how they managed this, it involved combining fiscal austerity with easy money: Canada in the ’90s drastically reduced interest rates, encouraging private spending, while allowing its currency to depreciate, encouraging exports.
Greece, unfortunately, no longer had its own currency when it was forced into drastic fiscal retrenchment. The result was an economic implosion that ended up making the debt problem even worse. Greece’s formula for disaster, in other words, didn’t just involve austerity; it involved the toxic combination of austerity with hard money.

So who wants to impose that kind of toxic policy mix on America? The answer is, most of the Republican Party.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

On the other side, leading Republicans like Representative Paul Ryan incessantly attack the Federal Reserve for its efforts to boost the economy, delivering solemn lectures on the evils of “debasing” the dollar — when the main difference between the effects of austerity in Canada and in Greece was precisely that Canada could “debase” its currency, while Greece couldn’t. Oh, and many Republicans hanker for a return to the gold standard, which would effectively put us into a euro-like straitjacket.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

it sure is...don't be stupid like the Greeks and don't embrace socialism...reduce the size of government and increase individual freedom....works like a charm every timeout is tried...

Oh right let's be more like Somalia. Great plan.

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well. Somalia?

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well.

The US pre-FDR.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.
Yeah, nothing like seniors being homeless in massive rates, a lack of a social safety net, a lack of guaranteed savings, a lack of regulation (Hm, what caused the great depression?)

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It's not what you think it is

Greece is a faraway country with an economy roughly the size of greater Miami, so America has very little direct stake in its ongoing disaster. To the extent that Greece matters to us, it’s mainly about geopolitics: By poisoning relations among Europe’s democracies, the Greek crisis risks depriving the United States of crucial allies.

But Greece has nonetheless played an outsized role in U.S. political debate, as a symbol of the terrible things that will supposedly happen — any day now — unless we stop helping the less fortunate and printing money to fight unemployment. And Greece does indeed offer important lessons to the rest of us. But they’re not the lessons you think, and the people most likely to deliver a Greek-style economic disaster here in America are the very people who love to use Greece as a boogeyman.

To understand the real lessons of Greece, you need to be aware of two crucial points.

Paul Krugman[/paste:font]
Macroeconomics, trade, health care, social policy and politics.

• Ending Greece’s BleedingJUL 5
• Europe’s Many Economic DisastersJUL 3
• Greece Over the BrinkJUN 29
• Hooray for ObamacareJUN 25
• Slavery’s Long ShadowJUN 22

See More »

The first is that the “We’re Greece!” crowd has a truly remarkable track record when it comes to economic forecasting: They’ve been wrong about everything, year after year, but refuse to learn from their mistakes. The people now saying that Greece offers an object lesson in the dangers of government debt, and that America is headed down the same road, are the same people who predicted soaring interest rates and runaway inflation in 2010; then, when it didn’t happen, they predicted soaring rates and runaway inflation in 2011; then, well, you get the picture.

The second is that the story you’ve heard about Greece — that it borrowed too much, and its excessive debt led to the current crisis — is seriously incomplete. Greece did indeed run up too much debt (with a lot of help from irresponsible lenders). But its debt, while high, wasn’t that high by historical standards. What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.

Consider Greece’s situation at the end of 2009, when its debt crisis burst into the open. At that point Greek government debt was near 130 percent of gross domestic product, which is definitely a big number. But it’s by no means unprecedented. As it happens, Greece’s debt ratio in 2009 was about the same as America’s in 1946, just after the war. And Britain’s debt ratio in 1946 was twice as high.

Today, however, Greek debt is over 170 percent of G.D.P. and still rising. Is that because Greece just kept on borrowing? Actually, no — Greek debt is up only 6 percent since 2009, although that’s partly because it received some debt relief in 2012. The main point, however, is that the ratio of debt to G.D.P. is up because G.D.P. is down by more than 20 percent. And why is GDP down? Largely because of the austerity measures Greece’s creditors forced it to impose.

Does this mean that austerity is always self-defeating? No, there are cases — for example, Canada in the 1990s — of countries that slashed their debt while maintaining growth and reducing unemployment. But if you look at how they managed this, it involved combining fiscal austerity with easy money: Canada in the ’90s drastically reduced interest rates, encouraging private spending, while allowing its currency to depreciate, encouraging exports.
Greece, unfortunately, no longer had its own currency when it was forced into drastic fiscal retrenchment. The result was an economic implosion that ended up making the debt problem even worse. Greece’s formula for disaster, in other words, didn’t just involve austerity; it involved the toxic combination of austerity with hard money.

So who wants to impose that kind of toxic policy mix on America? The answer is, most of the Republican Party.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

On the other side, leading Republicans like Representative Paul Ryan incessantly attack the Federal Reserve for its efforts to boost the economy, delivering solemn lectures on the evils of “debasing” the dollar — when the main difference between the effects of austerity in Canada and in Greece was precisely that Canada could “debase” its currency, while Greece couldn’t. Oh, and many Republicans hanker for a return to the gold standard, which would effectively put us into a euro-like straitjacket.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

You know the problem is that you are preaching to people (republicans) who don't even understand what socialism is. They see no difference between Norway and North Korea. They are that brainwashed. Fox News has them by the balls.

I wish the U.S. could be more like Norway but I doubt that will ever happen.

Fuck you turd and $8 gallon of gas , Go there then

Republican response: HURR DURR. Norway has strong unions and higher wages due to this, alot of people in norway use public transporation, which is a better thing then individual car ownership in my opinion, plus, norway isn't that big.

And they still manage to have the 4th biggest national economy in the world.

Norway is the 4th biggest economy in the world?
Holy shit! You're stupid.

 

[2aguy]

Oh right let's be more like Somalia. Great plan.

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well. Somalia?

the U.S. Before Roosevelt....then he made the depression "Great" and began the destructive increase in e size of our government....

A better question....which country prospered and became great with huge governments.....and didn't March their people into death camps....?

LOL. Yeah, you're truly delusional. Senior homelessness was rampant, people were desperate and it was a horrible time..

and FDR made it worse....so bad we didn't recover till after World War 2..... The first time a depression lasted that long....because he raised taxes, tarrifs and increased government spending, taking money away from the very people who could have fixed the economy...

LOL. That is ridiculous, and it's stupid you would go with revisionist history. The accomplishments of FDR are amazing, and let's not forget he was dealing with a fucking depression, among other things. LOL. "Fixed the economy" Yeah, like the rich were doing all they can to fix it before FDR..

sorry, the lie and hagiography is no longer holding.....we can get the truth out now in ways that weren't possible when you socialists controlled education, and the press....

FDR made the depression a "Great" depression...again, the first time a depression lasted that long...thanks to his tax, tariff and spend policies....the public works projects...did nothing to lower unemployment...look at unemployment levels all through the depression......thanks FDR....

 

[Socialist]

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well. Somalia?

the U.S. Before Roosevelt....then he made the depression "Great" and began the destructive increase in e size of our government....

A better question....which country prospered and became great with huge governments.....and didn't March their people into death camps....?

LOL. Yeah, you're truly delusional. Senior homelessness was rampant, people were desperate and it was a horrible time..

and FDR made it worse....so bad we didn't recover till after World War 2..... The first time a depression lasted that long....because he raised taxes, tarrifs and increased government spending, taking money away from the very people who could have fixed the economy...

LOL. That is ridiculous, and it's stupid you would go with revisionist history. The accomplishments of FDR are amazing, and let's not forget he was dealing with a fucking depression, among other things. LOL. "Fixed the economy" Yeah, like the rich were doing all they can to fix it before FDR..

sorry, the lie and hagiography is no longer holding.....we can get the truth out now in ways that weren't possible when you socialists controlled education, and the press....

FDR made the depression a "Great" depression...again, the first time a depression lasted that long...thanks to his tax, tariff and spend policies....the public works projects...did nothing to lower unemployment...look at unemployment levels all through the depression......thanks FDR....

"Socialists controlled education" Wow, I knew some people believed in some truly insane conspiracy theories, but this is a new low for the right wingers on this board. Oh please, the great depression would have chugged on regardless if FDR was there or not, he did his best to alleviate the problems, and he did help the common people through it, while the rich sat around in luxury as usual while the people suffered.. He set the framework for government safety nets, social security, regulation.. You have yet to back up any of your statements by the way.

 

[SAYIT]

And they still manage to have the 4th biggest national economy in the world.

Norway is the 4th biggest economy in the world? Holy shit! You're stupid.

It's a loony lefty thing ... you wouldn't understand.

 

[Socialist]

It's not what you think it is
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

You know the problem is that you are preaching to people (republicans) who don't even understand what socialism is. They see no difference between Norway and North Korea. They are that brainwashed. Fox News has them by the balls.

I wish the U.S. could be more like Norway but I doubt that will ever happen.

Fuck you turd and $8 gallon of gas , Go there then

Republican response: HURR DURR. Norway has strong unions and higher wages due to this, alot of people in norway use public transporation, which is a better thing then individual car ownership in my opinion, plus, norway isn't that big.

And they still manage to have the 4th biggest national economy in the world.

Norway is the 4th biggest economy in the world?
Holy shit! You're stupid.

"4th biggest national economy in the world."

 

[Wyatt earp]

It's not what you think it is
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

it sure is...don't be stupid like the Greeks and don't embrace socialism...reduce the size of government and increase individual freedom....works like a charm every timeout is tried...

Oh right let's be more like Somalia. Great plan.

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well. Somalia?

I'd like to see one successful country with a "small government" that worked well.

The US pre-FDR.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.
Yeah, nothing like seniors being homeless in massive rates, a lack of a social safety net, a lack of guaranteed savings, a lack of regulation (Hm, what caused the great depression?)

hey vampire , not many people lived to 65 idiot back then.... Do you get it? The only reason why you think he was great was because of WWII it saved his legacy and. the new deal

If it wasn't for WWII FDR would of been a total failure in his policys