Gunny's Thread on Religion

[JBeukema]

Xotoxic,

You are so wrong, so out of touch, so ignorant of the facts. I am extremely religious...

...and passionately loathed.

that has nothing to do with whatever religion it muight or might not believe in, though

 

[xotoxi]

I don't have any problem with people being religious. I just don't want it shoved down my throat.

And when has it ever been shoved down your throat?

See below...

Also, i dont know a single informed person who claims that God wrote the Bible. Because its obvious that men wrote it.

I am not referring to informed people. It's the uninformed people...

...to which I am referring.

Thus, see above...

 

[Yukon]

God only speaks through the Holy Father Pope Benedict. He communicates to man through him. By following the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church you will follow God's ways.

 

[AVG-JOE]

God only speaks through the Holy Father Pope Benedict. He communicates to man through him. By following the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church you will follow God's ways.

What happened during the middle ages?

What happened with the alter boys?

What happened to Matthew 23:9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.?

Those are red-letter words from Jesus during one of his most plainly recorded speeches. How does the Roman Catholic Faith spin that one Yukon?

-Joe

 

[AVG-JOE]

Why would God not speak to ALL of us? If God spoke to you through a burning bush, why would you not be impressive enough for me to listen to?

I think He does speak to all of us. Most people simply haven't prepared themselves to listen, let alone prepared ourselves to be in His presence.

How many people would see God and think they are hullicinating? Or going insane?

God in His mercy doesnt condemn people with knowledge they aren't prepared to handle.

I'm skeptical. Why is that wrong? Have you never been skeptical of something that would make such a huge difference in your life? Did you sign your mortgage on faith?

I dont think there is anything wrong with being unsure, as long as you dont let it prevent you from seeking out knowledge and accepting it once your questions and doubts have been answered.

There also comes a time in life where we cant be sure of what will happen. At those times we can either do nothing until we get all assurances, which likely will never happen. Or we can live life believing things will work out even if we cant see it for certain at the moment.

Personally, I prefer to err on the side of doing something rather than doing nothing.

All the non-believer asks is that the rules we live by be dictated by current popular consensus instead of by out of touch ancient literature. Why is that wrong? Are We, The People that perverted in our thinking? Christians can still live by more stringent rules if they want to, no skin off our nose...

And what if the popular consensus accepts the ancient literature? Why is it out of date? Because you say so? Why is it wrong for those who have values to speak out for them just because you dont like them?

What is the point if we are not free?

How are we free if all we are doing is changing one set of chains for another?

I guess I wonder why God doesn't tell everyone the same thing. Religious conflict is as old as our written word, even among people who supposedly share a basis in faith, for example, Ireland -vs- England: Catholic -vs- Protestant... if their Jesus is the real God, why doesn't He tell them to stop killing each other? Another example is Iraq and other middle eastern countries, Sunni -vs- Shiite is a long and bloody history of conflict. Why doesn't their shared God, Allah tell them to stop?

I can almost understand war between people who worship different Gods, but war between people who worship the same God baffles me. Especially when it is a multi-generational conflict. Can God be that flippin' difficult to understand? If he is, how can I trust what He says to me (assuming I recognize His voice), let alone trust what someone else says God told them to do.

Given our history as a planet, oversight by a God - especially a personal God, like you describe, just does not fit the evidence.

-Joe

 

[JBeukema]

unless that god is malevolent....

 

[Avatar4321]

I guess I wonder why God doesn't tell everyone the same thing.

Ive pondered that myself. Why do I know things other people don't? Why do they know things I don't?

Ultimately, I think God will tell us all the same things when we are prepared to learn those lessons. But we all learn different things at different rates. I think alot of it has to do with who we were before we were born. What choices we made then and what choices we've made in life. How our parents raised us. Whether our hearts and minds are prepared to learn. And also how much we've learned that simple isnt so.

The problem is we are looking at a work in progress and wondering why everyone isnt the same because we arent all the same finished product.

Religious conflict is as old as our written word, even among people who supposedly share a basis in faith, for example, Ireland -vs- England: Catholic -vs- Protestant... if their Jesus is the real God, why doesn't He tell them to stop killing each other?

I believe He has. They just havent listened. Experience tells me its very difficult to listen. I know I struggle with it sometimes.

Another example is Iraq and other middle eastern countries, Sunni -vs- Shiite is a long and bloody history of conflict. Why doesn't their shared God, Allah tell them to stop?

I think if they were listening to their shared God, they wouldnt have split off to begin with. Again, I have to turn to my experience. In my experience the Word of God unites people. Contention is of the devil. Unfortunately its a common sin and one Im guilty off more often than I should be.

I can almost understand war between people who worship different Gods, but war between people who worship the same God baffles me. Especially when it is a multi-generational conflict. Can God be that flippin' difficult to understand? If he is, how can I trust what He says to me (assuming I recognize His voice), let alone trust what someone else says God told them to do.

I think we tend to be stubborn. Its part of our nature. How many people simply ignore things that make them uncomfortable?

I also think God only tells people who are prepared to hear Him. There are some people who God could appear with His Heavenly Hosts and they would try to find some reason to not believe it was real. They would think they are hallucinating or that they've gone crazy.

And I think He withholds knowledge for several purposes. First, because He wants us to treasure it and let's face it, we dont treasure things we are just given. We treasure the things we work our butts off for. Having a child is a perfect example. We treasure our children because of the work it takes to create, carry, and raise them. I am not sure why humans are made to treasure things they work for, but its just part of who we are.

Second, I think we are accountable to what we know. Thte person who knows better is accountable for more than the person who acts ignorantly. Those who rebel against God are in a much worse state than those who live ignorantly of God.

Third, sometimes when we get knowledge we arent ready for we dont understand it. And when we dont understand it and something happens that we percieve to be contrary to that knowledge we did learn, we are hesitant believe that truth. It isn't any less true. We simply didnt understand it correctly. Instead of trying to understand it correctly, we decide that it can't be true.

Given our history as a planet, oversight by a God - especially a personal God, like you describe, just does not fit the evidence.

Really? Because Im an avid student of history and I see God's hand everywhere.

Did you know that if it werent for a small battle between the Tang and the Abbasids at the Battle of Talas, you and I would probably not exist?

In history I see God in all the little details that seem insignificant at the time but which change the world.

 

[JBeukema]

ALL leftist science is psuedo-science...

There is no such thing as 'leftist science', you twit

 

[JBeukema]

You have offered no evidence for your assertions; instead you spew only ignorance, stupidity, and the same tired drivel

 

[JBeukema]

I guess I wonder why God doesn't tell everyone the same thing.

Ive pondered that myself.

Simplest explanation: Because no such deity is telling any of them anything

The problem is we are looking at a work in progress and wondering why everyone isnt the same because we arent all the same finished product.

You're evading the issue of contradictory doctrines

I think we tend to be stubborn. Its part of our nature. How many people simply ignore things that make them uncomfortable?

is that god's likeness?

.

And I think

You think god does these things why>? Based on what evidence? Based on what Gnosticism do you claim to know the mind of God?



fool.

 

[AVG-JOE]

I guess I wonder why God doesn't tell everyone the same thing.

Ive pondered that myself. Why do I know things other people don't? Why do they know things I don't?

Ultimately, I think God will tell us all the same things when we are prepared to learn those lessons. But we all learn different things at different rates. I think alot of it has to do with who we were before we were born. What choices we made then and what choices we've made in life. How our parents raised us. Whether our hearts and minds are prepared to learn. And also how much we've learned that simple isnt so.

The problem is we are looking at a work in progress and wondering why everyone isnt the same because we arent all the same finished product.

Religious conflict is as old as our written word, even among people who supposedly share a basis in faith, for example, Ireland -vs- England: Catholic -vs- Protestant... if their Jesus is the real God, why doesn't He tell them to stop killing each other?

I believe He has. They just havent listened. Experience tells me its very difficult to listen. I know I struggle with it sometimes.



I think if they were listening to their shared God, they wouldnt have split off to begin with. Again, I have to turn to my experience. In my experience the Word of God unites people. Contention is of the devil. Unfortunately its a common sin and one Im guilty off more often than I should be.

I can almost understand war between people who worship different Gods, but war between people who worship the same God baffles me. Especially when it is a multi-generational conflict. Can God be that flippin' difficult to understand? If he is, how can I trust what He says to me (assuming I recognize His voice), let alone trust what someone else says God told them to do.

I think we tend to be stubborn. Its part of our nature. How many people simply ignore things that make them uncomfortable?

I also think God only tells people who are prepared to hear Him. There are some people who God could appear with His Heavenly Hosts and they would try to find some reason to not believe it was real. They would think they are hallucinating or that they've gone crazy.

And I think He withholds knowledge for several purposes. First, because He wants us to treasure it and let's face it, we dont treasure things we are just given. We treasure the things we work our butts off for. Having a child is a perfect example. We treasure our children because of the work it takes to create, carry, and raise them. I am not sure why humans are made to treasure things they work for, but its just part of who we are.

Second, I think we are accountable to what we know. Thte person who knows better is accountable for more than the person who acts ignorantly. Those who rebel against God are in a much worse state than those who live ignorantly of God.

Third, sometimes when we get knowledge we arent ready for we dont understand it. And when we dont understand it and something happens that we percieve to be contrary to that knowledge we did learn, we are hesitant believe that truth. It isn't any less true. We simply didnt understand it correctly. Instead of trying to understand it correctly, we decide that it can't be true.

Given our history as a planet, oversight by a God - especially a personal God, like you describe, just does not fit the evidence.

Really? Because Im an avid student of history and I see God's hand everywhere.

Did you know that if it werent for a small battle between the Tang and the Abbasids at the Battle of Talas, you and I would probably not exist?

In history I see God in all the little details that seem insignificant at the time but which change the world.

I don't know, Bud... If I were God I think I would want to distance myself from the history here. Best example off the top of my head is the dividing of the 'New' world between Spain and Portugal by the 'Holy' Father.

If our personal existence, as in "...you and I would probably not exist" really depended on a battle I honestly have never heard of, I'm a little less impressed with the whole concept of God 'knowing us before we were born' that the pro lifers parade periodically.

If the European Christians had been a little nicer when they came to my other ancestors homeland I may have been living very differently now indeed.

I'm still having a real hard time reconciling the reality of our history with anything but brute, godless, survival of the fittest, especially in light of the utter ignoring of the messenger supposedly sent 2000 years ago.

As far as God doling out knowledge on an 'as needed' or even an 'as able to receive it' basis, Thou Shall Not Kill seems pretty straightforward to this average Joe.

-Joe

 

[iagainsti]

meaning: all those who are not Christian, even Jews and Muslims who believe in the same god) are going to hell, which is a place where they will be separated from God and be tortured with fire and brimstone for all of eternity

You state a belief that hell is where the separation from God is made evident, whereas, what I was taught was that hell is the consequence for an earthly separation of man and God. When you choose to NOT live in a christ-like manner, you condemn yourself to hell. Its not God saying "oh, you didn't do enough to enter heaven's gates," it is instead, "oh, you didn't do ANYTHING to justify entering heaven's gates."

The "sin" committed during the Tower of Babel saga wasn't that they wanted to be closer to God, but that they ignored his great commission, that being, 'go ye into the world and preach the gospel to all nations.' The people instead decided to stay in one place which in terms of spreading the gospel, was completely ineffective. I realize that this has, over time, been construed as 'punishment,' but the intended effect was, like I said, to spread God's word throughout the world.

So, does an earthly separation of man and God consist of not living in a Christ-like manner, or not believing in God? Because one can live according to the moral principles Christ taught without even believing in Christ...but according to my understanding, even though morality is stressed as well, belief in Jesus Christ is absolutely essential for salvation. So, to put it simply, someone who does not believe in God but is a relatively good person and lives a moral life will not be saved. Am I wrong about that?

And as for the Tower of Babel...

Genesis 11:4-7
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children built.
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do; and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

It seems like we have a different understanding of the meaning of the story. To me, it seems that God is saying that with one language, the people can do anything they imagine...so he makes it so they can no longer understand each other. It sounds to me as though he's trying to restrain them, since "nothing will be restrained from them" when they are as one, with one language. If the intention was to spread God's word throughout the world, it makes sense to spread the people throughout the world, of course...but then why mix up their languages as well?

God created us all and loves us all immensely. Any of us who do not believe in him will be doomed to suffer for all of eternity. Is there a way to reconcile those two ideas? Is eternal horrendous suffering a punishment that is fitting of the crime of not believing in the existence of God? Why would a loving God base the salvation of his creations on their belief in him, rather than their character or morality or some other criteria?

This is the fundamental difference between God and Man, see Hitler, see Stalin, see Casto, et al; man requires proof of worship, whereas God only requires belief. In my opinion, this stems moreso from man's inherent confidence issues than God's superiority. Whereas man needs affirmation for deeds performed, God is above such trivial nonsense. The bible says that, "whosoever believes in me shall not perish but have everlasting life." Nowhere does it say, "whosoever murders an abortion doctor shall not perish...." or whosoever commits the fewest sins..." etc. God requires only your faith, not your outward display. In terms of actual, determinable power, this makes perfect sense. If you are an all-powerful entity, then its EASY to 'force' someone to bend to your will; the REAL power lies in having people come to you based on their decisions. If you're a pet owner, think of it this way; its very easy to pick up your dog or cat and pet them, but its much more satisfying to simply sit down on the couch and see if they jump up in your lap. Not sure if I can explain any better than that.

I understand what you're saying about God wanting us to come to believe in him of our own free will rather than forcing us; that makes perfect sense. What I don't understand is why the punishment for NOT coming to believe in him is so severe. To me, whether God requires worship or simply belief isn't as relevant as the fact that no matter which it is, to fail to do so is to spend an eternity in Hell. You're right, worship demands an outward display while belief doesn't necessarily...but why is it so important to God that his creations believe in his existence at all?

Also: is it fair that since the punishment for nonbelief is eternal torment, God made it so difficult to come to believe in him? Would he not be morally obligated to make his existence painfully obvious to each and every one of us, if the consequences for not believing in him are so severe?

If there was PROOF of God's existence, then belief would not require faith. If God revealed himself to the world tomorrow, then everyone would believe, obviously, and the allure of faith would be destroyed. Salvation is a reward for faith AND living a christ-like life, meaning that it is YOUR choice to either a) live a christ-like life and be rewarded with eternal life or b) living a sinful life and condemning yourself to hell b/c of YOUR actions. Either way, it is YOUR choices that determine your fate. Much like the idea that, you can't sit back and do nothing at work and expect to be rewarded, however, if you work hard and do your job, then you're probably going to get that year-end-review raise/bonus.

You're right, if God made his existence painfully obvious then we would all believe, and then...we would all be saved. Again, this comes back to my not understanding why God is so hungry for our faith in him, and why the punishment for not having faith is so severe. True, you can't be rewarded for not working hard. But does believing in God constitute working hard? In my opinion, living up to the moral standards God puts forth in the Bible is a lot harder than believing in God...but meeting the moral criteria is not enough.

I apologize for being so blunt...but to me, it seems vain and a little sadistic. Not only is belief in God necessary for salvation, but to come to such a belief can be a challenge. The reward for succeeding in that challenge is great, and the punishment for failure is severe. If we are to be put through such a test, why a test of faith in God? Why not a test of who we are as people, what our moral standards are, what kind of lives we live? Instead, it's a test of whether or not we come to believe in God without him making his presence known.

These are my main questions, and I think you've touched on them but sort of circled around them at the same time: Why should belief, above all else, be the key to salvation, what does that say about God? Is eternal torment a fitting punishment for the "crime" of not believing in God? It's that last question, especially, that pushes me toward nonbelief. I've yet to find a satisfactory answer to it.

I believe that "faith" is the cause of the intellectual laziness surrounding christianity, as in, if you can lump all criticisms against your belief as a 'lack of faith,' then why would you ever need to defend those said beliefs? Christians nowadays no longer feel the need to justify their beliefs en masse, and in my mind have done a tremendous disservice to the idea of religious justification; 'this is what I believe and why.' (the answer that "the bible says so" isn't much of an answer at all, especially to someone who may not believe in the divine nature of the bible, for example)

I agree. To me, dismissing criticisms as a lack of faith or saying that someone can't understand anything about your faith if they don't believe is the biggest cop-out there is, and a way of getting around having to explain or even think about anything. If you've never questioned your belief, what's the point of calling it a belief? Of course you'll believe something if it's all you know.

My job as a christian is not to beat you over the head until you submit, but merely to plant the seed and move on.

If only more people saw it that way!

 

[iagainsti]

So, for Christians, it's a given that those who do not believe that Jesus Christ was the messiah and died for their sins (meaning: all those who are not Christian, even Jews and Muslims who believe in the same god) are going to hell, which is a place where they will be separated from God and be tortured with fire and brimstone for all of eternity (although there are some Biblical scholars who believe that the Bible actually teaches that nonbelievers will be completely destroyed, but that's a whole other discussion). Please correct me if any of that is wrong.

NO, i am a Christian, and believe those who are not Christians, will be Judged by the Law on judgment day and that ONLY GOD, (Jesus on Judgment Day) can determine whether you are worthy to see God, are saved.

So those who don't believe in God can still be saved if they are judged worthy based on their morality? I was under the impression that according to the Bible and according to what most Christians believe, only those who believe will be saved.

Wow, that's alot to respond to....I found this link that goes over the many different ways that various people have thought brings Salvation.... it should answer many of your questions, it does answer many of my questions regarding this...and I have not even finished reading it all yet...

What does the Bible say about salvation?

I read a bit of it, and it sort of addressed my above question...from what I understood, most Christians believe that all non-Christians are condemned, but some believe that only those who have heard the Gospel and rejected it are condemned, while those who have not heard it at all are the ones who will be judged based on their morality.

I also read this:

"In the past, some Christian churches taught that all non-Christians were condemned, and even Christians of other denominations were likely condemned. However, world travel and instant communication have brought people of different religions closer together and have forced a reevaluation of old beliefs that other religions were invalid, obsolete, or even the work of the devil. If we take John 3:16-18 as the sole criterion for salvation, then all non-Christians, children who die young, and the mentally disabled will be automatically condemned to hell. Many people find that inconsistent with the New Testament's portrayal of God as a loving Father."

They're right, it is inconsistent...but it's what is written. To be blunt, this seems to me like an attempt at moderation, to gloss over something that isn't pleasant by changing its meaning. It is definitely unpleasant that all non-Christians, children who die young, and the mentally disabled will have to burn for all of eternity, and it does seem inconsistent with the portrayal of God as a loving father...but should doctrine be modified to make it "nicer"?

"In addition, it seems inconsistent with the Bible's portrayal of God as all-powerful to believe He is somehow unable to save anyone He finds worthy, regardless of religious affiliation."

By my understanding, no one who does not believe is deemed worthy by God, because there is no criteria other than belief. From reading the link, the only possible exception might be those who have not heard the Gospel, according to Jesus' words to the Pharisees. They, it seems, are the only ones who might be judged according to their morality rather than whether or not they believed in something they never heard about.

here is a part from it:

One day an expert in religious law stood up to test Jesus by asking him this question: "Teacher, what must I do to receive eternal life?" Jesus replied, "What does the law of Moses say? How do you read it?" The man answered, " 'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.' And, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' " "Right!" Jesus told him. "Do this and you will live!" (NLT, Luke 10:25-28)

We are not saved just by following rules
The Pharisees, religious leaders of Jesus' time, believed that salvation could be earned by strict observance of the Law of Moses (the Ten Commandments plus the other Old Testament rules). Jesus rejected that belief and stressed that we will be judged on the purity of our motives, not just on the outward observance of rules.

It makes sense that motives matter more than actions...but you can't ignore the part about loving the Lord your God with all your heart. To love God requires a belief in God...so the moral aspect still applies only to believers.

Also: is it fair that since the punishment for nonbelief is eternal torment, God made it so difficult to come to believe in him? Would he not be morally obligated to make his existence painfully obvious to each and every one of us, if the consequences for not believing in him are so severe?

I believe He has made it painfully obvious...of course this is probably easy for me to say, because I wholeheartedly believe that there is a God....I suppose it is sorta a Catch 22 or what came first, the Chicken or the egg type thing!?

Sort of. I see what you mean, but by "painfully obvious" I meant something along the lines of God appearing to everyone and saying "Hey, here I am, and here's the rules." Obviously, that would not require faith, but my main question is: what's so good about faith in the first place, and why does God require faith in him?

As simply as you can, type these questions of yours in the Google Search, you will get many answers to your questions....

I've read the Bible, and I've read some apologetic material and a lot of other stuff about religion. I'm looking for answers straight from a believer...I'm looking to hear a Christian's take on all this. Which I thank you for taking the time to give me! Although I'm not sure you answered my fundamental questions about the importance of belief and the "fairness" of eternal damnation, you gave me a lot of good information.

 

[Care4all]

So, for Christians, it's a given that those who do not believe that Jesus Christ was the messiah and died for their sins (meaning: all those who are not Christian, even Jews and Muslims who believe in the same god) are going to hell, which is a place where they will be separated from God and be tortured with fire and brimstone for all of eternity (although there are some Biblical scholars who believe that the Bible actually teaches that nonbelievers will be completely destroyed, but that's a whole other discussion). Please correct me if any of that is wrong.

NO, i am a Christian, and believe those who are not Christians, will be Judged by the Law on judgment day and that ONLY GOD, (Jesus on Judgment Day) can determine whether you are worthy to see God, are saved.

So those who don't believe in God can still be saved if they are judged worthy based on their morality? I was under the impression that according to the Bible and according to what most Christians believe, only those who believe will be saved.



I read a bit of it, and it sort of addressed my above question...from what I understood, most Christians believe that all non-Christians are condemned, but some believe that only those who have heard the Gospel and rejected it are condemned, while those who have not heard it at all are the ones who will be judged based on their morality.

I also read this:

"In the past, some Christian churches taught that all non-Christians were condemned, and even Christians of other denominations were likely condemned. However, world travel and instant communication have brought people of different religions closer together and have forced a reevaluation of old beliefs that other religions were invalid, obsolete, or even the work of the devil. If we take John 3:16-18 as the sole criterion for salvation, then all non-Christians, children who die young, and the mentally disabled will be automatically condemned to hell. Many people find that inconsistent with the New Testament's portrayal of God as a loving Father."

They're right, it is inconsistent...but it's what is written. To be blunt, this seems to me like an attempt at moderation, to gloss over something that isn't pleasant by changing its meaning. It is definitely unpleasant that all non-Christians, children who die young, and the mentally disabled will have to burn for all of eternity, and it does seem inconsistent with the portrayal of God as a loving father...but should doctrine be modified to make it "nicer"?

"In addition, it seems inconsistent with the Bible's portrayal of God as all-powerful to believe He is somehow unable to save anyone He finds worthy, regardless of religious affiliation."

By my understanding, no one who does not believe is deemed worthy by God, because there is no criteria other than belief. From reading the link, the only possible exception might be those who have not heard the Gospel, according to Jesus' words to the Pharisees. They, it seems, are the only ones who might be judged according to their morality rather than whether or not they believed in something they never heard about.



It makes sense that motives matter more than actions...but you can't ignore the part about loving the Lord your God with all your heart. To love God requires a belief in God...so the moral aspect still applies only to believers.

I believe He has made it painfully obvious...of course this is probably easy for me to say, because I wholeheartedly believe that there is a God....I suppose it is sorta a Catch 22 or what came first, the Chicken or the egg type thing!?

Sort of. I see what you mean, but by "painfully obvious" I meant something along the lines of God appearing to everyone and saying "Hey, here I am, and here's the rules." Obviously, that would not require faith, but my main question is: what's so good about faith in the first place, and why does God require faith in him?

As simply as you can, type these questions of yours in the Google Search, you will get many answers to your questions....

I've read the Bible, and I've read some apologetic material and a lot of other stuff about religion. I'm looking for answers straight from a believer...I'm looking to hear a Christian's take on all this. Which I thank you for taking the time to give me! Although I'm not sure you answered my fundamental questions about the importance of belief and the "fairness" of eternal damnation, you gave me a lot of good information.

My answer to you to all of the still pending questions is, "I don't know". Some Christians seem to know for certain in their minds that those that don't believe in Christ, will be separated from God in the afterlife based on how they read the Bible....

I see beyond that, in general.... I try to soak in all that I have read in the Bible and get meaning from each passage as it relates to the whole, or the whole of what I have read so far...along with outside readings on symbolism and metaphor of the time the Bible Books were writen....so to also better understand...along with sincere prayer with asking god to please help me understand what he was trying to tell us, before ever picking up the Bible to read it.

I also can humble myself and accept that I may not understand all that has been writen in the Word.

some religions call these non understandable things Mysteries, or Mysteries of Faith.

Bottom line, I personally do not have the answers to your questions...but taking the Bible on the whole of what I have read, I believe that God loves us all equally, believers and non believers....and your questions are sound questions, many of which I have asked myself....

How can someone who truly does GOOD their entire lives, yet have doubt in their own belief of God, truly end up in hell if GOOD=GOD....which it does....and EVIL = DEVIL?

I can speculate and say this person that does good and has that love for humankind and the animal kingdom and all that God has made in the heavens and on earth is a person of God, without knowing it at the present time, perhaps?

I walked away from religion for over 10-15 years, anyone who was a Christian probably would have condemned me to hell for my doubt, my lack of faith and my non belief...but God knew something that they didn't know and that I didn't even know....and this was that I would find my way back to Him or that He would bring me to Him once again, through my own earthly life and things that happened within it.

I would also venture to say, that someone with as many good questions as you regarding all of this....someday will get your answers here on Earth, and they won't be from me or any other christian or religious person here, but from God Himself....through your own consciousness.

Care

 

[AVG-JOE]

Nor the ones who say god loves 'all his children' or who present the biblical god as one of peace and love and mercy

"God" the Creator. What does "God" actually have to be? A life form beyond the intellectual capability of Man, who is able to create life in its own image. Man himself is capable of recreating life through cloning. Don't think because there is some ban on human cloning that some eggheads aren't already hard at it.

So let's apply some logic here. Life, and consequently Man was created by happenstance. Just teh exact mixture of air, water and minerals came together at exactly the perfect time to create life on Earth; which , just happens to be a planet perfectly situated in the galaxy to support life as we know it.

That is neither logical, nor is it mathematically even close to likely.

Where science attempts to encroach on religion, it fails miserably.

Would you agree that where theology tries to encroach on science, it is also out of its depth? At least that the two should be taught as separate disciplines?
As for happenstance in science, ecology, specifically the study of biota, suggests evolution is evident in many more places than you might think. The hierarchy of levels, scales, and natural constraints of different criteria, and even landscape corridors match in some way arrangements of human government, civil engineering, competition, family structure (more cohesive within than without), and social activity points to the smallest of organisms. Humans, no matter how one sees them emerging, got here last. Does it not seem more reasonable that the similarities we see are evolutionary, and that we copy other organisms because we have a (or some) shared beginning (s)?

As for me, I believe in the great "I am," but I also believe that a supreme being, or deity, has the necessary reach to reach all people in the way they would best understand. Its the "dad likes me best" wars of exclusive use I find disturbing about organized religion, the social controls built into the dogma, and the history of using it as an excuse to demonize others to steal their women, their land, and their water.

Isn't dialogue wonderful? I do NOT believe in the great "I AM", and yet Barb and I have significant agreement regarding historical religion on this planet.

Thank (insert your preferred Deity here) for America!

-Joe

 

[AVG-JOE]

Would you agree that where theology tries to encroach on science, it is also out of its depth? At least that the two should be taught as separate disciplines?
As for happenstance in science, ecology, specifically the study of biota, suggests evolution is evident in many more places than you might think. The hierarchy of levels, scales, and natural constraints of different criteria, and even landscape corridors match in some way arrangements of human government, civil engineering, competition, family structure (more cohesive within than without), and social activity points to the smallest of organisms. Humans, no matter how one sees them emerging, got here last. Does it not seem more reasonable that the similarities we see are evolutionary, and that we copy other organisms because we have a (or some) shared beginning (s)?

As for me, I believe in the great "I am," but I also believe that a supreme being, or deity, has the necessary reach to reach all people in the way they would best understand. Its the "dad likes me best" wars of exclusive use I find disturbing about organized religion, the social controls built into the dogma, and the history of using it as an excuse to demonize others to steal their women, their land, and their water.

Isn't dialogue wonderful? I do NOT believe in the great "I AM", and yet Barb and I have significant agreement regarding historical religion on this planet.

Thank (insert your preferred Deity here) for America!

-Joe

Good for you Joe.

No doubt that this moment of comity; with you having used it to proudly declare yourself here as rejecting fellowship with the Father... thus using the full scope of your infuence on this board to discourage other souls from such fellowship... will provide you with much comfort during the eternity wherein you suffer incomprehensible anguish and torment.

Ain't believing something strongly enough to consider it 'faith' a bitch?

I hope for my sake that you are wrong and there is no hell; I also hope you don't have enough contempt for us heathens that you relish the thought of being right, otherwise, we'll see you there.

P.S. - I take it as an extreme compliment that you believe I have influence on this board. I really do.

-Joe

 

[Al Gunn]

Believing in an invisible super daddy in another dimension who let his only son die on a cross in his underwear, is for sure sign of mental illness. What else would you call it?

I think that it is enough, and I suppose that Jesus Christ heard voices (schizophrenia) which ′advised him′ that he should surrender to crucify - he was a poor man

ST34, how would you propose forcing every pregnant woman to have the baby against her will?

you have to acknowledge some principles and values - for example value of human life

That's not what I asked, how are you going to force people to have babies even if you get roe vs wade overturned?

 

[AVG-JOE]

God only speaks through the Holy Father Pope Benedict. He communicates to man through him. By following the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church you will follow God's ways.

What happened to Matthew 23:9 "And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven."?

Those are red-letter words from Jesus during one of his most plainly recorded speeches. How does the Roman Catholic Faith spin that one Yukon?

-Joe

How about it Yukon (or any other Catholic in the congregation)? I've always been curious about this one... educate me.

-Joe

 

[iagainsti]

My answer to you to all of the still pending questions is, "I don't know". Some Christians seem to know for certain in their minds that those that don't believe in Christ, will be separated from God in the afterlife based on how they read the Bible....

Yes, I know that they do...and that's part of what prompted my questions. I don't understand how so many people can turn their backs to something that seems to me to be irreconcilable...and I've yet to hear someone reconcile it.

I see beyond that, in general.... I try to soak in all that I have read in the Bible and get meaning from each passage as it relates to the whole, or the whole of what I have read so far...along with outside readings on symbolism and metaphor of the time the Bible Books were writen....so to also better understand...along with sincere prayer with asking god to please help me understand what he was trying to tell us, before ever picking up the Bible to read it.

I also can humble myself and accept that I may not understand all that has been writen in the Word.

some religions call these non understandable things Mysteries, or Mysteries of Faith.

It's very true that the Bible is difficult to understand. You can't just read a passage and expect to stand alone, you have to take it in context...as far as symbolism and metaphor, it's incredibly difficult to determine what should be read as a metaphor and what was meant to be taken literally...it was written at a different time to people of a completely different language and culture than our own today...and you can't forget that when you read any version of the Bible, you're reading someone else's translation of the original text. Sounds like you understand that and are going into your readings of the Bible trying your best to get the true meaning out of it, and that's all anyone can do, right?

I'm not bothered by the fact that there would be "mysteries of faith." I am, however, bothered when the term "mystery" is applied to things about the faith that CAN be explained, but the most obvious explanation is unpleasant. To me, when questions are answered with things like "we're not able to understand God's justice, it's divine and we are only human," that's what I call a cop-out. I'm glad you've done your best to answer my questions without "copping out" as such.

Bottom line, I personally do not have the answers to your questions...but taking the Bible on the whole of what I have read, I believe that God loves us all equally, believers and non believers....and your questions are sound questions, many of which I have asked myself....

How can someone who truly does GOOD their entire lives, yet have doubt in their own belief of God, truly end up in hell if GOOD=GOD....which it does....and EVIL = DEVIL?

Yes, that is a good summary of my questions...if GOD=GOOD, how the hell do we explain Hell? One of the biggest reasons I have moved away from faith is that the only answers I've been able to come up with to those questions are as follows:

Is there any way to reconcile the idea of a loving God with the idea that his punishment for not believing in him is eternal torment? No, there is not, at least not that I've been able to come up with thus far.

Does the punishment of eternal torment fit the crime of not believing in God? No, in my opinion, it does not.

Does belief in God constitute more worth than morality or any other criteria? No, I don't feel that it does, and at the moment I think this is my single biggest problem with the Christian faith - its emphasis on belief over morality.

Should God be morally obligated to make his existence undeniable to us if the punishment for not believing in him is so severe and irrevocable? Yes, I believe he should be.

You've been honest with me and told me that you don't know how to answer these questions, and believe me, I appreciate very much that you didn't "cop out" and try to get me to accept a non-answer like "you just can't understand because you're not a believer" or something like that. I can tell you're putting as much thought into these questions as I have. They are difficult questions to answer, maybe impossible, and my "answers" are obviously simply my opinions and not true answers to those questions at all. I think I'm just looking for a really good challenge to those opinions.

I can speculate and say this person that does good and has that love for humankind and the animal kingdom and all that God has made in the heavens and on earth is a person of God, without knowing it at the present time, perhaps?

That's a good speculation! I'd like to think that if God is real, an otherwise good person would not be condemned to suffer in Hell for not believing that. But based on the text, is that speculation plausible? Judging from the way you say you read the Bible, I'd say you probably understand it well, so your guess is as good as (or better than!) mine.

I would also venture to say, that someone with as many good questions as you regarding all of this....someday will get your answers here on Earth, and they won't be from me or any other christian or religious person here, but from God Himself....through your own consciousness.

I appreciate you saying that...who knows, right? It could happen! I'm definitely open to the possibility.

 

[iagainsti]

God only speaks through the Holy Father Pope Benedict. He communicates to man through him. By following the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church you will follow God's ways.

What happened to Matthew 23:9 "And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven."?

Those are red-letter words from Jesus during one of his most plainly recorded speeches. How does the Roman Catholic Faith spin that one Yukon?

-Joe

I'd be interested to hear that as well!