Gunny's Thread on Religion

[Care4all]

I just had a thought occur to me.

God knows everything that is going to happen, and has known since...well, since forever, right? And it's all part of God's plan, right?

And God endowed humankind with free will, right? Meaning that God doesn't control the decisions and actions we take, right?

Here's my point: If God knows what is going to happen, and its part of His plan, then how do we have free will? Either human beings have free will to make decisions which God has no control over which then are necessarily not part of His plan, or human beings act according to God's plan. Which is it?

If you expand the scope of the question to all humankind, meaning the billions of decisions made every moment of the day, how does God's plan account for the free will of all those decisions, especially after centuries of those decisions? For example, was Jesus Christ God's contingency plan when humankind wasn't going the way He planned for? Or was Jesus Christ planned for from the beginning? If God always knew that He would send Jesus Christ to Earth as a sacrifice, then He must necessarily have known in advance the decisions that would be made by each human being on Earth so that the necessary situation would arise in which Jesus Christ's sacrifice was needed.

Can anyone address that paradox?

He knows all that we will end up doing, because He is and knows the beginning and the end...so yes, he already knows which ones of us will be naughty or nice with our own freewill! He already knows whose names will be writen in the Book of Life and yes He already knew He would be sending Jesus Christ as our sacraficial lamb, that we would kill him on the cross....this was also prohesized in books of the old testament...and all prophesy that was given occurs because He does know everything that we will do with our own freewill.

Gosh, I realize that was a mouthful Colorado, and certainly appears to have some twisting and turning in there, but this is what I believe.

Care

 

[Coloradomtnman]

He knows all that we will end up doing, because He is and knows the beginning and the end...so yes, he already knows which ones of us will be naughty or nice with our own freewill! He already knows whose names will be writen in the Book of Life and yes He already knew He would be sending Jesus Christ as our sacraficial lamb, that we would kill him on the cross....this was also prohesized in books of the old testament...and all prophesy that was given occurs because He does know everything that we will do with our own freewill.

Gosh, I realize that was a mouthful Colorado, and certainly appears to have some twisting and turning in there, but this is what I believe.

Care

Well, despite JBeukema's terribly-typed attempt at the topic (alliteration intended) I think your answer was better put and better understood. It was also easier to read than the abrasive style in which JBeukema wrote his reply. So, thanks Care, that pretty much cleared it up for me.

 

[midcan5]

These point counterpoint point debates about any complex unknowable topic end up going nowhere. I doubt anyone is convinced or changed by them. Maybe some young person reads them and thinks a bit differently, but by and large these threads are attempts to confirm what you already believe in, to feel secure that you are on the right track.

I lost all religion as a very small child as it never made sense to me that gawd loved but judged you and based on some judgment of wrongdoing you'd fry forever. A loving gawd that did that made no sense even to my child mind. And then there is the problem that all you know is because you were born in a time and place and culture. Everyone is an atheist minus one gawd.

I've always agreed with Ivan in the Brothers Karamazov that if knowledge and life requires the suffering of one child then I say the heck with it. But since suffering has and does and probably will occur, I am instead a liberal. lol

"When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion." Abraham Lincoln

 

[AllieBaba]

I just had a thought occur to me.

God knows everything that is going to happen, and has known since...well, since forever, right? And it's all part of God's plan, right?

And God endowed humankind with free will, right? Meaning that God doesn't control the decisions and actions we take, right?

Here's my point: If God knows what is going to happen, and its part of His plan, then how do we have free will? Either human beings have free will to make decisions which God has no control over which then are necessarily not part of His plan, or human beings act according to God's plan. Which is it?

If you expand the scope of the question to all humankind, meaning the billions of decisions made every moment of the day, how does God's plan account for the free will of all those decisions, especially after centuries of those decisions? For example, was Jesus Christ God's contingency plan when humankind wasn't going the way He planned for? Or was Jesus Christ planned for from the beginning? If God always knew that He would send Jesus Christ to Earth as a sacrifice, then He must necessarily have known in advance the decisions that would be made by each human being on Earth so that the necessary situation would arise in which Jesus Christ's sacrifice was needed.

Can anyone address that paradox?

This is one example of the duality and complexity of God. There's no way that humans can grasp it. He has complete knowledge of what will happen and what has happened...and everything happens according to his plan...and yet at the same time we in our ignorance are able to experience free will. We are allowed that freedom, but because God is so far ahead of our curve, he still knows exactly what we will choose and how, and has constructed the universe to encompass our decisions.

 

[Barb]

Would you agree that where theology tries to encroach on science, it is also out of its depth? At least that the two should be taught as separate disciplines?
As for happenstance in science, ecology, specifically the study of biota, suggests evolution is evident in many more places than you might think. The hierarchy of levels, scales, and natural constraints of different criteria, and even landscape corridors match in some way arrangements of human government, civil engineering, competition, family structure (more cohesive within than without), and social activity points to the smallest of organisms. Humans, no matter how one sees them emerging, got here last. Does it not seem more reasonable that the similarities we see are evolutionary, and that we copy other organisms because we have a (or some) shared beginning (s)?

As for me, I believe in the great "I am," but I also believe that a supreme being, or deity, has the necessary reach to reach all people in the way they would best understand. Its the "dad likes me best" wars of exclusive use I find disturbing about organized religion, the social controls built into the dogma, and the history of using it as an excuse to demonize others to steal their women, their land, and their water.

Isn't dialogue wonderful? I do NOT believe in the great "I AM", and yet Barb and I have significant agreement regarding historical religion on this planet.

Thank (insert your preferred Deity here) for America!

-Joe

Good for you Joe.

No doubt that this moment of comity; with you having used it to proudly declare yourself here as rejecting fellowship with the Father... thus using the full scope of your infuence on this board to discourage other souls from such fellowship... will provide you with much comfort during the eternity wherein you suffer incomprehensible anguish and torment.

Could it be that he instead rejects your interpretation? And hell, how could he do such a thing, as attractive as it is. "Let ye be fishers of men" does not mean "you stab them, we'll slab them." I'm just sayin.

 

[amrchaos]

I just had a thought occur to me.

God knows everything that is going to happen, and has known since...well, since forever, right? And it's all part of God's plan, right?

And God endowed humankind with free will, right? Meaning that God doesn't control the decisions and actions we take, right?

Here's my point: If God knows what is going to happen, and its part of His plan, then how do we have free will? Either human beings have free will to make decisions which God has no control over which then are necessarily not part of His plan, or human beings act according to God's plan. Which is it?

If you expand the scope of the question to all humankind, meaning the billions of decisions made every moment of the day, how does God's plan account for the free will of all those decisions, especially after centuries of those decisions? For example, was Jesus Christ God's contingency plan when humankind wasn't going the way He planned for? Or was Jesus Christ planned for from the beginning? If God always knew that He would send Jesus Christ to Earth as a sacrifice, then He must necessarily have known in advance the decisions that would be made by each human being on Earth so that the necessary situation would arise in which Jesus Christ's sacrifice was needed.

Can anyone address that paradox?

This is one example of the duality and complexity of God. There's no way that humans can grasp it. He has complete knowledge of what will happen and what has happened...and everything happens according to his plan...and yet at the same time we in our ignorance are able to experience free will. We are allowed that freedom, but because God is so far ahead of our curve, he still knows exactly what we will choose and how, and has constructed the universe to encompass our decisions.

Actually, the concept of Pre-determination and the theory of Free Will are not of the same religious codex.

That is if pre-determination is part of your religious belief, Free will does not exist. If Free will is part of you religious tenet, pre-determination does not exist. Few religious sect/denomination encourages one concept over the other and thus it is possible to have both believers in Free will and believers of Pre-determination within the same religious sect.

This concept is more of a theological nature and not for common believers to dwell on.

 

[Barb]

"God" the Creator. What does "God" actually have to be? A life form beyond the intellectual capability of Man, who is able to create life in its own image. Man himself is capable of recreating life through cloning. Don't think because there is some ban on human cloning that some eggheads aren't already hard at it.

So let's apply some logic here. Life, and consequently Man was created by happenstance. Just teh exact mixture of air, water and minerals came together at exactly the perfect time to create life on Earth; which , just happens to be a planet perfectly situated in the galaxy to support life as we know it.

That is neither logical, nor is it mathematically even close to likely.

Where science attempts to encroach on religion, it fails miserably.

Would you agree that where theology tries to encroach on science, it is also out of its depth? At least that the two should be taught as separate disciplines?
As for happenstance in science, ecology, specifically the study of biota, suggests evolution is evident in many more places than you might think. The hierarchy of levels, scales, and natural constraints of different criteria, and even landscape corridors match in some way arrangements of human government, civil engineering, competition, family structure (more cohesive within than without), and social activity points to the smallest of organisms. Humans, no matter how one sees them emerging, got here last. Does it not seem more reasonable that the similarities we see are evolutionary, and that we copy other organisms because we have a (or some) shared beginning (s)?

As for me, I believe in the great "I am," but I also believe that a supreme being, or deity, has the necessary reach to reach all people in the way they would best understand. Its the "dad likes me best" wars of exclusive use I find disturbing about organized religion, the social controls built into the dogma, and the history of using it as an excuse to demonize others to steal their women, their land, and their water.

Isn't dialogue wonderful? I do NOT believe in the great "I AM", and yet Barb and I have significant agreement regarding historical religion on this planet.

Thank (insert your preferred Deity here) for America!

-Joe

I find much that is admirable in the atheist view that people have only one shot to get it right, and that one shot carries the responsibility to do the good one would do in this world while one is present in it. Just in case, or if there just isn't as much time left, or simply because its the right thing to do regardless, I believe everyone should live as such.

 

[AVG-JOE]

What happened to Matthew 23:9 "And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven."?

Those are red-letter words from Jesus during one of his most plainly recorded speeches. How does the Roman Catholic Faith spin that one Yukon?

-Joe

I'd be interested to hear that as well!

Again, don't know the answer but before researching the justification of the Catholic church for using the term Father for their Priests, I would FIRST want to find out what word was used for Father in the original text, and I believe, as with the word love, (there was a word for 'love' of your father, 'love' of your neighbor, 'love' of your sweetheart, there were many different words that cover the word Father as well...

I find it hard to believe for example, that all of us would not be permitted to call our own earthly Fathers, father...or Father in an endearing sense, Daddy or Dad....or that we could not label those that wrote the constitution, "Our founding fathers"....

so, maybe the Bible has lost something in translation of the word they gave for Father in this passage... to english? Father in the sense they meant, could have meant simply 'God the Father'....and calling an earthly figure, 'God the Father' would be a lie?

Care

I don't think Jesus meant that a child should not call a parent 'Daddy', or even 'Father', but when the leaders of the Catholic Church began using 'Father' as a title for their leadership and then went on to hang the qualifier 'Holy' in front of the title for the organizations head dude in charge, especially in light of Matthew 29:3, the congregation missed the boat on scattering the cockroaches of corruption with the light of the scripture, in my humble opinion.

-Joe

 

[AVG-JOE]

so, maybe the Bible has lost something in translation

-and 'God' was unable to protect hos word or inspire those who translated it, so that all could know his true word? Or just unwilling?

freewill....of man.

the Bible specifically mentions and gives warning that man will try to change words or add words to the Bible for their own meaning....and what their destination is after death if they are one of the ones that did such.

Obviously God was well aware of what we would do or could do, with our own freewill....I still wouldn't give it up for anything in the world....who wants to be without their own free will and a puppet of sorts?

care

So how do we know that the current canon of the scriptures is not corrupt and leading everyone away from God?

-Joe

 

[RodISHI]

You can cross reference the original text in Hebrew and Greek with modern English.

 

[tigerbob]

These point counterpoint point debates about any complex unknowable topic end up going nowhere. I doubt anyone is convinced or changed by them. Maybe some young person reads them and thinks a bit differently, but by and large these threads are attempts to confirm what you already believe in, to feel secure that you are on the right track.

I lost all religion as a very small child as it never made sense to me that gawd loved but judged you and based on some judgment of wrongdoing you'd fry forever. A loving gawd that did that made no sense even to my child mind. And then there is the problem that all you know is because you were born in a time and place and culture. Everyone is an atheist minus one gawd.

I've always agreed with Ivan in the Brothers Karamazov that if knowledge and life requires the suffering of one child then I say the heck with it. But since suffering has and does and probably will occur, I am instead a liberal. lol

"When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion." Abraham Lincoln

I agree with that.

 

[Care4all]

-and 'God' was unable to protect hos word or inspire those who translated it, so that all could know his true word? Or just unwilling?

freewill....of man.

the Bible specifically mentions and gives warning that man will try to change words or add words to the Bible for their own meaning....and what their destination is after death if they are one of the ones that did such.

Obviously God was well aware of what we would do or could do, with our own freewill....I still wouldn't give it up for anything in the world....who wants to be without their own free will and a puppet of sorts?

care

So how do we know that the current canon of the scriptures is not corrupt and leading everyone away from God?

-Joe

because the Scripture that we do have canonized for the most part, is not the problem Joe, at least not to me, but it is the way some people, or some leaders of the churches have manipulated it, or truly have not seen for various reasons, the obvious or hidden meaning, that could be there...

what could be missing from the Bible, is more of my concern....what scripture could have been left out for the purpose of humans wanting power or control or whatever, if coupled with the Scripture we do have, could give further clarity to certain issues....that they didn't want us to have....

but NONE of this sways my faith and belief in God....


belief and faith goes much deeper than pastry, than a deep dish pie....for me it is an awareness of something, of something outside of the body... and a 6th sense of sorts.

 

[midcan5]

This is excellent.

Dan Dennett's response to Rick Warren | Video on TED.com

"Philosopher Dan Dennett calls for religion -- all religion -- to be taught in schools, so we can understand its nature as a natural phenomenon. Then he takes on The Purpose-Driven Life, disputing its claim that, to be moral, one must deny evolution."

 

[iagainsti]

I just had a thought occur to me.

God knows everything that is going to happen, and has known since...well, since forever, right? And it's all part of God's plan, right?

And God endowed humankind with free will, right? Meaning that God doesn't control the decisions and actions we take, right?

Here's my point: If God knows what is going to happen, and its part of His plan, then how do we have free will? Either human beings have free will to make decisions which God has no control over which then are necessarily not part of His plan, or human beings act according to God's plan. Which is it?

If you expand the scope of the question to all humankind, meaning the billions of decisions made every moment of the day, how does God's plan account for the free will of all those decisions, especially after centuries of those decisions? For example, was Jesus Christ God's contingency plan when humankind wasn't going the way He planned for? Or was Jesus Christ planned for from the beginning? If God always knew that He would send Jesus Christ to Earth as a sacrifice, then He must necessarily have known in advance the decisions that would be made by each human being on Earth so that the necessary situation would arise in which Jesus Christ's sacrifice was needed.

Can anyone address that paradox?

This is one example of the duality and complexity of God. There's no way that humans can grasp it.

But, even though humans can't understand it, YOU can, so you go on to explain it to us...

He has complete knowledge of what will happen and what has happened...and everything happens according to his plan...and yet at the same time we in our ignorance are able to experience free will. We are allowed that freedom, but because God is so far ahead of our curve, he still knows exactly what we will choose and how, and has constructed the universe to encompass our decisions.

Several times in the Bible, God is surprised by what his people do. How can that be so if he has complete future foreknowledge?

The Christian faith says that God is omniscient...but, logically speaking, can the future be known? Maybe God doesn't know the future because knowledge of the future is a logical impossibility, and the future doesn't yet exist to be known.

 

[JBeukema]

This is one example of the duality and complexity of God. There's no way that humans can grasp it.

Actually, it's simple enough for those who think

Several times in the Bible, God is surprised by what his people do. How can that be so if he has complete future foreknowledge?

Easy solution : 'complete foreknowledge is a lie'

the ability to see the entirety of the spime does not equal or necessitate the decision to view the necessity of the spime


How sad that an atheist must teach religiofools how to make sense of their own beliefs

 

[Sky Dancer]

freewill....of man.

the Bible specifically mentions and gives warning that man will try to change words or add words to the Bible for their own meaning....and what their destination is after death if they are one of the ones that did such.

Obviously God was well aware of what we would do or could do, with our own freewill....I still wouldn't give it up for anything in the world....who wants to be without their own free will and a puppet of sorts?

care

So how do we know that the current canon of the scriptures is not corrupt and leading everyone away from God?

-Joe

belief and faith goes much deeper than pastry, than a deep dish pie....for me it is an awareness of something, of something outside of the body... and a 6th sense of sorts.

I would call it timeless awareness, buddha or rigpa.

 

[Valerie]

This is one example of the duality and complexity of God. There's no way that humans can grasp it.

Actually, it's simple enough for those who think

What do you suppose inspired Moses on the mountain? How did he make his choices for those ten commandments, do you suppose?

Moses was just a man and yet he somehow found the wisdom to speak for the sake of his community. Where did his inspiration come from?

In Moses' wisdom, he knew he wasn't inspired by his own brilliance, as if he was so special, but that this inspiration came from somewhere else, from a source greater than him.

Moses knew it meant more than the flesh and blood of those who were present, something more fundamental to the community that would become a perpetual and powerful inspiration for generations to come, something greater than any individual man could ever hope to be.

So what do you call that? Laws by divine inspiration.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TAtRCJIqnk]YouTube - Moses - Ten Commandments - Mel Brooks[/ame]

 

[AllieBaba]

Narcissism. It's a mental illness, not an indication that you're holy.

 

[JBeukema]

Narcissism. It's a mental illness, not an indication that you're holy.

hmm... I wonder how that light illuminates the holy men who spoke to god and write of it in the blazing desert 4000 years ago while burning unknown plants...

 

[AllieBaba]

Moses was a reluctant messenger, as were Christ and most of the prophets.