Has science proved there is no God?

[Hollie]

Boss thinks because primitive men all came up with god it must be true.

No, Boss does not think man "came up with" anything. YOU are the one who made that argument and you never backed it up. Man has always been spiritual, since man has been man. If you can offer valid scientific evidence this is not true, do it!

Man has not always been "spiritual". As usual, you do nothing more than endlessly repeat you fundamentalist dogma.

At no time have you ever made any case for man always being "spiritual". You have never even been able to define what that means.

 

[Boss]

Well Hollie, that's a lie. I have made the case for man always having been spiritual, it's what archeology findings have shown us. The oldest human civilizations that have ever been unearthed, show evidence of human spiritual ritual and ceremony.

I've also defined on numerous occasions, specifically what human spirituality is. It is our intrinsic connection to something greater than self. It is our most defining attribute as a species.

 

[orogenicman]

I am singling out no one in particular when I say this since several people do this here, but it would be helpful if responses to posts included the post responded to. This prevents confusion as to who one is responding. Please use the quote button when responding to specific posts. Thanks in advance.

 

[sealybobo]

It may also be true that belief in god is a throwback from our primate past when we were filled with fear of angry alpha males.

This can only be true if "belief in god" were effective in eliminating such fears. Otherwise, there is no reason for humans to retain the attribute. When we collectively rationalize, for all our existence, a key fundamental behavior like spirituality, there has to be something to it. We gain some benefit from it at a fundamental level. These are not superficial and meaningless things or spirituality would not be important.

That's the problem with religion. It teaches you to cope with not change or fix your situation.

So yet again you are wrong when you say "this could only be true if"

 

[sealybobo]

Well Hollie, that's a lie. I have made the case for man always having been spiritual, it's what archeology findings have shown us. The oldest human civilizations that have ever been unearthed, show evidence of human spiritual ritual and ceremony.

I've also defined on numerous occasions, specifically what human spirituality is. It is our intrinsic connection to something greater than self. It is our most defining attribute as a species.

Because we feel there must be something greater than self doesnt mean there is. This is the "I can't believe otherwise" argument. Just because its hard for you and my dad to believe doesnt mean it ain't so.

 

[sealybobo]

I am singling out no one in particular when I say this since several people do this here, but it would be helpful if responses to posts included the post responded to. This prevents confusion as to who one is responding. Please use the quote button when responding to specific posts. Thanks in advance.

I dont reply to people that do this.

 

[sealybobo]

Let's start over. Let's say I'm raised by two parents who dont tell me about god but teach me right from wrong. You meet me and bring up god. I say who? And you say what?

I don't understand your point. If you were a human raised in captivity without any social interaction of other humans and devoid of any teaching of language and such... would you know things? Could you be taught things? Does the fact that you don't know things make you less of a human? Does it have anything to do with your capacity to learn? What exactly is the point you are trying to make?

Sigmund Freud once stated, "If there was no God, man would have to create God." Some will take that quote out of context and say "ahaa! he's saying man had to create god!" But that's not what he is talking about. Freud is discussing the nature of the human psyche. How our minds work as highly-intelligent, imaginative and creative creatures driven by our emotions. We simply would not survive without something to regulate our morals because our minds are too much for nature to bear. The human psyche would have destroyed everything if we operated on sheer animal instinct. Our morals, a spiritually inspired thing, are the reason humans have been able to advance and thrive with nature.

Sorry you don't understand. The point is you don't need God to be a moral person. And Freud was an idiot.

Yes... the father of psychoanalysis was an idiot and you're genius! This should demonstrate for any open-minded person, that you are fully prepared to reject any evidence presented and declare the presenter an idiot if what they have to say contradicts your disbelief in God. You are not interested in the truth, you are only interested in protecting your disbelief in God.. at ALL costs!

This is a question for all of you who aren't aboard the Magic Bus with Neil "Nutty Professor" Tyson and his hoard of Atheist Scientists in outright rejection of God.... How quickly do you believe these people would completely abandon science if science accidentally discovered proof for God?
...I'm betting, less than a Planck Unit.

The point is you don't need God to be a moral person.

And if you were ever successful at completely wiping out the concept of God from the minds of mankind, you would discover very quickly how flawed this opinion is.

Ultimately, when you remove the authority of something greater than man, there is no foundational logical basis for human morality. There is nothing to hold the immoral accountable. In such an environment, those who cling to morality in spite of having no foundational basis would become the idiots of humanity-- destined for their demise at the hands of those who aren't handicapped with moral constraint.

You dont need a god to be good.

We make fun of Einstein and you poo poo Tyson and sagen.

 

[sealybobo]

Boss thinks because primitive men all came up with god it must be true.

No, Boss does not think man "came up with" anything. YOU are the one who made that argument and you never backed it up. Man has always been spiritual, since man has been man. If you can offer valid scientific evidence this is not true, do it!

Man has not always been "spiritual". As usual, you do nothing more than endlessly repeat you fundamentalist dogma.

At no time have you ever made any case for man always being "spiritual". You have never even been able to define what that means.

When we buried our dead so the wolves and vultures wouldnt eat them we put flowers in the grave.

We also buried a living slave and pet with them. A sacrafise to the gawds. Since those primitive men did that it must be true.

 

[Hollie]

Well Hollie, that's a lie. I have made the case for man always having been spiritual, it's what archeology findings have shown us. The oldest human civilizations that have ever been unearthed, show evidence of human spiritual ritual and ceremony.

I've also defined on numerous occasions, specifically what human spirituality is. It is our intrinsic connection to something greater than self. It is our most defining attribute as a species.

Nothing but your usual silly slogans. You have made no case for what you rattle on with about a cliche' of some "intrinsic" connection to any spirit realm. Further, nothing about a ceremony requires religious belief. As is typical for religious extremists, you have a need to insert your fundamentalist beliefs where none existed.

 

[sealybobo]

Well Hollie, that's a lie. I have made the case for man always having been spiritual, it's what archeology findings have shown us. The oldest human civilizations that have ever been unearthed, show evidence of human spiritual ritual and ceremony.

I've also defined on numerous occasions, specifically what human spirituality is. It is our intrinsic connection to something greater than self. It is our most defining attribute as a species.

Nothing but your usual silly slogans. You have made no case for what you rattle on with about a cliche' of some "intrinsic" connection to any spirit realm. Further, nothing about a ceremony requires religious belief. As is typical for religious extremists, you have a need to insert your fundamentalist beliefs where none existed.

And they move the goal post constantly. It use to be everyone believed in god. Now boss says most people are "spiritual". Athiesm or agnostics are the fastest growing group in our society. I believe we are on the cusp of religion. Christianity is on the decline. Jews probably will remain a culture but hessidics can't last another 500 years can they? Not as many run around now I hope. Will the Mormon church ever disappear? I can't see it happening in 200 years no way. And how long will Mohammad last? 2000 years?

As much as people are waking up I dont see these cults going away anytime soon but a guy can hope.

 

[orogenicman]

Well Hollie, that's a lie. I have made the case for man always having been spiritual, it's what archeology findings have shown us. The oldest human civilizations that have ever been unearthed, show evidence of human spiritual ritual and ceremony.

I've also defined on numerous occasions, specifically what human spirituality is. It is our intrinsic connection to something greater than self. It is our most defining attribute as a species.

Nothing but your usual silly slogans. You have made no case for what you rattle on with about a cliche' of some "intrinsic" connection to any spirit realm. Further, nothing about a ceremony requires religious belief. As is typical for religious extremists, you have a need to insert your fundamentalist beliefs where none existed.

And they move the goal post constantly. It use to be everyone believed in god. Now boss says most people are "spiritual". Athiesm or agnostics are the fastest growing group in our society. I believe we are on the cusp of religion. Christianity is on the decline. Jews probably will remain a culture but hessidics can't last another 500 years can they? Not as many run around now I hope. Will the Mormon church ever disappear? I can't see it happening in 200 years no way. And how long will Mohammad last? 2000 years?

As much as people are waking up I dont see these cults going away anytime soon but a guy can hope.

More people are becoming atheists and agnostics because people today are (generally) smarter, and as you know, smart people only have to step in bullshit once before they learn to avoid it.

 

[Boss]

When we buried our dead so the wolves and vultures wouldnt eat them we put flowers in the grave.

We also buried a living slave and pet with them. A sacrafise to the gawds. Since those primitive men did that it must be true.

Wait, you didn't explain the logical non-spiritual reason we buried a living slave and pet with them? You started off strong then petered out completely. It's funny because it reads almost as if you are trying to convince yourself that you are right but you can't do it. First sentence, you've got it all figured out... second sentence, you're explaining something spiritual again. ODD!

Here's the deal: You cannot explain ritual ceremonies without spirituality. They simply make no other rational or logical sense. Then you jump from clear evidence humans were spiritual to insisting the presence of spirituality can only exist if whatever is believed is true. There is no basis in logic for that. It's like if I were trying to argue that humans have never been scientific because of all the things science has disproved that we once believed. Because science has been wrong a few times, doesn't in any way, invalidate science.

 

[Boss]

Further, nothing about a ceremony requires religious belief.

I'm not talking about religions. Humans invented religions thousands of years later because of spirituality.

Ceremonial rituals cannot be anything other than spiritual. There is no natural or rational explanation for them otherwise. Now, it's easy as hell to sit here and stubbornly deny that fact, it takes very little effort to stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalalallalalalaallalallala... not listening... lalalallalalallalallalaa!" What you can't do is what you haven't done this entire thread or any other similar thread, PROVE YOUR POINT!

 

[Boss]

You dont need a god to be good.

On the surface, this statement seems harmless enough. It's easy for me to imagine that people can think of themselves as being good without having any belief in a higher power. Mostly because the human ego causes us to rationalize our behaviors. However, when we actually break down this concept of "good and evil" and how man can regulate his own behavior, the notion breaks down. What IS "good" and what IS "evil?" How do mortal human beings distinguish between the two?

IF I have no spiritual foundation for what is good or evil, then what is good or evil is solely dependent on what I rationalize. That means, if I think it's better that my tribe have your tribe's food and resources... killing you and taking your shit becomes "good" because I've rationalized it as such. It is ONLY when I have a belief in higher moral authority that I can rationalize a purpose greater than self and understand that it's "evil" to kill you and take your shit.

 

[Hollie]

Further, nothing about a ceremony requires religious belief.

I'm not talking about religions. Humans invented religions thousands of years later because of spirituality.

Ceremonial rituals cannot be anything other than spiritual. There is no natural or rational explanation for them otherwise. Now, it's easy as hell to sit here and stubbornly deny that fact, it takes very little effort to stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalalallalalalaallalallala... not listening... lalalallalalallalallalaa!" What you can't do is what you haven't done this entire thread or any other similar thread, PROVE YOUR POINT!

You certainly are referring to religions. You continue to stumble all over your inability to differentiate your fundamentalist religious beliefs from ceremony and ritual. You have an insensate need to assign religions and gawds where they have no business being.

Ceremony and ritual certainly are not necessarily religious which you falsely reinvent and reinterpret as something you call "spiritual". What's absurd is that you can't even define "spiritual" but you attempt to drench humanity with it.

What you can't do and what you sidestep, waffle and backtrack on is actually providing support for your baseless claims which amount to pointless slogans and cliches' while spewing your religious fundamentalist views.

 

[Boss]

It may also be true that belief in god is a throwback from our primate past when we were filled with fear of angry alpha males.

This can only be true if "belief in god" were effective in eliminating such fears. Otherwise, there is no reason for humans to retain the attribute. When we collectively rationalize, for all our existence, a key fundamental behavior like spirituality, there has to be something to it. We gain some benefit from it at a fundamental level. These are not superficial and meaningless things or spirituality would not be important.

That's the problem with religion. It teaches you to cope with not change or fix your situation.

So yet again you are wrong when you say "this could only be true if"

Again... Not talking about religions which came thousands of years later and were invented by men through their spirituality. Why can't anyone seem to penetrate your head with that?

Now back to the argument that was being made. If we developed this attribute of spirituality because of whatever... the only rational, logical, biological and scientific conclusion is, it must have been effective. If it wasn't effective in eliminating these fears, then we would have abandoned it because we are rational. We don't retain attributes with no benefit. You can't name one living thing that has behavior attributes which serve no apparent purpose. Go ahead... try and present some examples of it in nature! You can't because it doesn't happen.

 

[Hollie]

You dont need a god to be good.

On the surface, this statement seems harmless enough. It's easy for me to imagine that people can think of themselves as being good without having any belief in a higher power. Mostly because the human ego causes us to rationalize our behaviors. However, when we actually break down this concept of "good and evil" and how man can regulate his own behavior, the notion breaks down. What IS "good" and what IS "evil?" How do mortal human beings distinguish between the two?

IF I have no spiritual foundation for what is good or evil, then what is good or evil is solely dependent on what I rationalize. That means, if I think it's better that my tribe have your tribe's food and resources... killing you and taking your shit becomes "good" because I've rationalized it as such. It is ONLY when I have a belief in higher moral authority that I can rationalize a purpose greater than self and understand that it's "evil" to kill you and take your shit.

You're really just making excuses for your own lack of ability to discern some pretty basic concepts of social mores. Suppose we found out today with absolute certainty that there are not now and never have been gawds. Would that knowledge suddenly cause you to steal, or to commit other crimes? If you answer yes, then you are immoral and anti-social and that is your personality fracture, not morality's weakness. If you answer no, then gawds are not needed.

I suspect you suffer from the same self-hate and self-loathing that affects so many fundamentalist whack jobs. You are emotionally, intellectually and morally weak. You actually require the notion of a supernatural spanking to keep you from being anti-social and becoming a danger to yourself and those around you.

 

[Boss]

You certainly are referring to religions.

No sweetie, YOU are talking about religions. You see, your hate and anger toward religion is causing you to hear things that aren't being said... or read things that aren't being written.

I have no argument for religion. I am not religious. I believe all organized religions are flawed creations of man. There have been some outright wicked religions... radical fundamental Islamism comes to mind. History's graveyard is full of failed dynasties and empires built on religion. Kings and tyrants have often perverted religion or simply created their own personalized versions. There are plenty of valid arguments against organized religions and I am not here to defend any of them... never have been... never will be.

Human spirituality is NOT RELIGION! It precedes ANY religious teaching by ten's of thousands of years. It was through many many generations of human spirituality that religion was born.

 

[Hollie]

It may also be true that belief in god is a throwback from our primate past when we were filled with fear of angry alpha males.

This can only be true if "belief in god" were effective in eliminating such fears. Otherwise, there is no reason for humans to retain the attribute. When we collectively rationalize, for all our existence, a key fundamental behavior like spirituality, there has to be something to it. We gain some benefit from it at a fundamental level. These are not superficial and meaningless things or spirituality would not be important.

That's the problem with religion. It teaches you to cope with not change or fix your situation.

So yet again you are wrong when you say "this could only be true if"

Again... Not talking about religions which came thousands of years later and were invented by men through their spirituality. Why can't anyone seem to penetrate your head with that?

Now back to the argument that was being made. If we developed this attribute of spirituality because of whatever... the only rational, logical, biological and scientific conclusion is, it must have been effective. If it wasn't effective in eliminating these fears, then we would have abandoned it because we are rational. We don't retain attributes with no benefit. You can't name one living thing that has behavior attributes which serve no apparent purpose. Go ahead... try and present some examples of it in nature! You can't because it doesn't happen.

Again, you actually are talking abut religion. You just are too slow to understand that others clearly see your agenda of promoting your silly "spirit realms" as something different from a fundamentalist religious belief that is identical to what oozes out of the fundamentalist Christian ministries.

 

[Hollie]

You certainly are referring to religions.

No sweetie, YOU are talking about religions. You see, your hate and anger toward religion is causing you to hear things that aren't being said... or read things that aren't being written.

I have no argument for religion. I am not religious. I believe all organized religions are flawed creations of man. There have been some outright wicked religions... radical fundamental Islamism comes to mind. History's graveyard is full of failed dynasties and empires built on religion. Kings and tyrants have often perverted religion or simply created their own personalized versions. There are plenty of valid arguments against organized religions and I am not here to defend any of them... never have been... never will be.

Human spirituality is NOT RELIGION! It precedes ANY religious teaching by ten's of thousands of years. It was through many many generations of human spirituality that religion was born.

No, pumpkin. Your religious fundamentalist views are consistent with every cliche' and slogan that oozes from the Pat Robertson ministry.

Your nonsensical "spirit realms" are a cheap burqa intended for your stealth proselytizing.

Like many fundie cranks, you are unable to envision a world without your gawds providing what you mistakenly believe is a moral code. If you knew anything of the history of religions, you would understand that they were, and are, a mechanism to cohere large groups of people into a group-think mindset, usually to do the bidding of one or a very few manipulative leaders.

You should try and educate yourself to some history. You will find that religious are hardly the standard of morality you falsely claim them to be.