Healthcare should not be a PROFIT driven field

[frigidweirdo]

Admin for US healthcare costs 30% of all healthcare spending. Put this into perspective. The US govt pays 50% of healthcare costs, so that means that 60% of what you put into your healthcare through insurance, goes on admin, not on treating anything, not on doctors, but on insurance companies and things like that.

Where do you get this from? I don't recall the government ever paying for half of my costs. Except when I was in the military, but then it was 100%.

Where? From the US govt I guess.

The Distribution Of Public Spending For Health Care In The United States, 2002

"The public sector accounted for 56.1 percent of health spending within the civilian noninstitutionalized population."

"U.S. health care spending is projected to total nearly $2.4 trillion in 2008, and nearly half will be government outlays."

In Canada it's 15% on admin. So that's 15% of what is spend is going on unnecessary expenditure just to line the pockets of people.

A friend is a nurse and asked the doctor and he said his Canadian doctor friend had two office clerks. He has five. The reason is the government red tape. He didn't hire more workers to jack up the bill, he hired them to handle the mountain of paperwork.

Okay, and why is there so much red tape?

Let's try this. The insurance companies probably wouldn't pay anyone if they didn't have to. The govt has to come in and control the industry because, well, capitalism only seems to work when there's someone to stop people being complete morons.
So, the govt doesn't trust these insurance companies, so they have to go through a load of red tape, the insurance companies don't trust the doctors, maybe the govt doesn't trust the doctors either.
And because you have all these separate systems, you have to pay a ton of money to control the whole thing. Completely unnecessary as well. But then again the healthcare business spends a lot of money telling you that it is necessary for you to keep throwing money at them.

How much money then goes on pure corruption? Things like drug companies getting doctors to give the more expensive drug because the patient doesn't care, the insurance company is "paying for it", the insurance company doesn't care because those paying the insurance fees are paying for it.
It leads to a weird mentality, it leads to corruption, it leads to spending too much.

So does lawsuits and malpractice insurance. Medicine today, unfortunately, has shifted priorities to covering their asses. They have to. That's why there's so much testing, retesting, forms, etc. We need reform but more government was the wrong answer.

Well the problem starts at the top.

US politics is corrupt. Nothing really ever happens, other than fighting over positions that have nothing much to do with anything.

Why do you think that issues like guns, abortion, and other polarized issues are at the top of the agenda but no one makes a squeak about corruption in healthcare spending?

Because polarized issues are what sell, and the two main parties sell themselves. They sell themselves to the highest bidders, like the healthcare industry, and they make sure that people keep away from such topics. They don't spend millions of billions on campaigning against corruption because they know some guy facing them will be getting massive backing with hard cold cash from the healthcare industry.

How do you change this? You need to change the way govt works first.

But how's that going to happen when everyone keeps on the polarized issued?

 

[frigidweirdo]

See, I'm not always in favor of govt run things. I know the govt isn't exactly the greatest, and I've seen the govt do plenty of really poor things. HOWEVER, there are systems out there where healthcare is allowed to get on with things, without govt interfering, but also without capitalism getting involved and making a whole mess of it as well.

Simply said, it's about a balance that works.

I call shenanigans.

What balanced working (functional) health care system is there that is completely free of government interference and the effects/products of capitalism?

Er.... balanced, by its very nature, is not going to be completely free of govt interference. In fact, I'd be very, VERY worried if the healthcare industry were completely free of govt interference.

 

[Cecilie1200]

One is voluntary, the other isn't.



I did above. It's inconsistent to support the taxing and funding of one and not the other. What drives cost down is competition. This state added requirements every year to insurance companies so there were few options. Even then it bumped up a good bit every year. Greed? It cost more to cover more, period. I have to pay for drug treatment, alcohol treatment, mental health, etc. With no option to cross state lines. You are only willing to consider one aspect and refuse to look at the whole problem.

One is voluntary, but you kind of need it, so it isn't that voluntary.

Rule one. It's illegal to commit suicide, so you are kind of forced to buy food, or at least forced to eat.
Rule two. It's illegal to walk around naked. So you kind of need to have clothes.

While it appears voluntary, something at the back say it isn't. It's a perception of being voluntary.

As for not willing to look at other aspects, I disagree. You've made a vague statement about what, supposedly, I don't look at, it isn't enough for me to actually comment on though.

You can take your chances, even now, so health care insurance is voluntary. I don't know if every state has a law against suicide (sorta doubt it, do any?) but I haven't heard of anyone successfully being prosecuted for it. I didn't mention clothes but you could run around in a burlap sack. Housing isn't a law either, lots of homeless around.

Go ahead and spin the wheel again, might get lucky.

I don't think they prosecute you for attempted suicide. I think they lock you up for your own protection.

 

[frigidweirdo]

So private corporations aren't involved and government isn't involved, so how is it done?

Also, can you give one example of something you don't want the government to do?

I didn't say govt and private companies weren't involved.

I think it's the Swiss system (as one example) where you have have to buy insurance but the insurance is non-profit insurance if you buy the basic package.

Health care in Switzerland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The whole healthcare system is geared towards to the general goals of enhancing general public health and reducing costs while encouraging individual responsibility."

So says someone who wrote the wikipage.

Or you have the UK system, where many things are free, some things you have to pay for, if you want you can take out insurance and have things done quicker and maybe with more comfort etc in private hospitals or even with NHS doctors/dentists who do extra work on top of their NHS work.

There are plenty of systems out there to look at. Some really bad and some really good, and without as much of the corruption.


What shouldn't the govt be involved in? Things like transport, industry and so on. Many things just aren't essential and work better when there is competition, as long as that competition doesn't involve exclusive monopolies of power or price fixing and so on.

 

[frigidweirdo]

One is voluntary, the other isn't.



I did above. It's inconsistent to support the taxing and funding of one and not the other. What drives cost down is competition. This state added requirements every year to insurance companies so there were few options. Even then it bumped up a good bit every year. Greed? It cost more to cover more, period. I have to pay for drug treatment, alcohol treatment, mental health, etc. With no option to cross state lines. You are only willing to consider one aspect and refuse to look at the whole problem.

One is voluntary, but you kind of need it, so it isn't that voluntary.

Rule one. It's illegal to commit suicide, so you are kind of forced to buy food, or at least forced to eat.

And yet, people commit suicide everyday. It's rather difficult to convict a corpse. So your response here is nonsense.

Rule two. It's illegal to walk around naked. So you kind of need to have clothes.

If one is truly opposed to clothing, then one is perfectly free to join a nudist colony.

While it appears voluntary, something at the back say it isn't. It's a perception of being voluntary.

As for not willing to look at other aspects, I disagree. You've made a vague statement about what, supposedly, I don't look at, it isn't enough for me to actually comment on though.

Based on this, you have no concept of the drive of a living being to stay alive of its own volition. You think that we only take care of ourselves because the government forces us to. What a moron.

Let me just congratulate you on insulting me. I can see that this takes a great deal of brain power.

I'm MAKING A POINT. Jeez.

Yes, we have an impulse to stay alive, and this is probably why people believe that healthcare should be available for all, and also be available and not cost the earth.

 

[kiwiman127]

For profit medicine is the reason why healthcare in the US is so expensive.
Here's two list that show the cost of healthcare per captita. Also we lead the world quite comfortably as far as healthcare expenditures percentage of the GDP. This is also not good. It hurts the overall US economy.
Here you go folks.
List of countries by total health expenditure (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Americans are getting screwed over and at the same time the US economy is getting dragged down by the cost of healthcare.

 

[The T]

Why the FUCK is government involved at all? Guess they love to abridge Liberty of the individual....

Why is govt involved in anything at all? Why have govt in the first place? The answer to that one, you're going to have to figure out for yourself.

My personal point of view is how far should the govt go. With healthcare, I see the role of the govt as the one who takes the taxes, puts it into healthcare so that there is a healthcare system that doesn't require payment for essential healthcare.

But then again, I don't really listen to the millions of dollars being spent by the healthcare system which tells me it should be private.

But get this. The US govt spends about the same amount of its GDP on healthcare as the UK govt. One has the NHS the other has medicare. Spot the difference?

I already know and what they're doing isn't Constitutional bub. It's ALL about CONTROL over us...every aspect of our lives. Figure it out? I think it is YOU that needs to re-examine.

 

[frigidweirdo]

You can take your chances, even now, so health care insurance is voluntary. I don't know if every state has a law against suicide (sorta doubt it, do any?) but I haven't heard of anyone successfully being prosecuted for it. I didn't mention clothes but you could run around in a burlap sack. Housing isn't a law either, lots of homeless around.

Go ahead and spin the wheel again, might get lucky.

Whether people get prosecuted or not is neither here nor there.

The point being, people have brought up clothes, food and housing as being essential. The govt also puts in place things that sort of force you to actually take part in these.

Healthcare is voluntary, except you kind of need it. To live a decent life, you need food, you need clothing, you need all of this, and healthcare is something you need and hardly what people would consider voluntary.

Those who "opt-out" are those who can't afford to be in it. It's not out of choice, it's out of necessity, or stupidity, I guess it depends on the person.

How many people do you think don't bother with healthcare when they can easily afford it?

Voluntary?

 

[frigidweirdo]

Why the FUCK is government involved at all? Guess they love to abridge Liberty of the individual....

Why is govt involved in anything at all? Why have govt in the first place? The answer to that one, you're going to have to figure out for yourself.

No. In fact, that's the one question we have to agree on. At least if you're talking about compulsive state government that we're all forced to pay for.

Well, if you go back in history, you realise that "forced to pay for" is a part of life.
Unless you're the guy at the top, you're going to be forced to do things. It's part of being a social being. People have always had to pay taxes. Sometimes the taxes go to benefit them, other times they go to benefit the society and not themselves directly, and other times they go to benefit the leadership and no one else.

No society has ever managed to do away without someone in charge. That's our nature.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I already know and what they're doing isn't Constitutional bub. It's ALL about CONTROL over us...every aspect of our lives. Figure it out? I think it is YOU that needs to re-examine.

I didn't say unconstitutional. The constitution actually backs up the monopoly on power and the two party system and all its corruption.

But their control comes from much higher up.

The question is what are you and others doing about it?
Every time you go and vote Rep or Dem, you're supporting the whole corruption, the whole system. Every time someone comes on here and starts playing the team game of slagging off the opposition, they'd supporting the whole system.

A yes when I make posts calling for Proportional Representation, no one bothers, no one listens, no one cares. Why? They like being told what to do, that's what.

 

[1776]

Hospitals in Cuba, North Korea, China, USSR, etc must be so much better than here....not.

 

[The T]

I already know and what they're doing isn't Constitutional bub. It's ALL about CONTROL over us...every aspect of our lives. Figure it out? I think it is YOU that needs to re-examine.

I didn't say unconstitutional. The constitution actually backs up the monopoly on power and the two party system and all its corruption.

But their control comes from much higher up.

The question is what are you and others doing about it?
Every time you go and vote Rep or Dem, you're supporting the whole corruption, the whole system. Every time someone comes on here and starts playing the team game of slagging off the opposition, they'd supporting the whole system.

A yes when I make posts calling for Proportional Representation, no one bothers, no one listens, no one cares. Why? They like being told what to do, that's what.

It does? Where does it say that? Sorry DUDE. I never read that in ANY of the Founder's writings...you know? The Federalists/Anti-Federalists?

YOU are painting a picture with Watercolours in a severe thunderstorm.

Try Again.

 

[Katzndogz]

No one has proposed just how medical professionals could be forced to work for free. How the equipment providers would be forced to supply the equipment for free or how the pharmaceutical ccompanies could be forced to provide medications for free.

 

[The Rabbi]

For profit medicine is the reason why healthcare in the US is so expensive.
Here's two list that show the cost of healthcare per captita. Also we lead the world quite comfortably as far as healthcare expenditures percentage of the GDP. This is also not good. It hurts the overall US economy.
Here you go folks.
List of countries by total health expenditure (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Americans are getting screwed over and at the same time the US economy is getting dragged down by the cost of healthcare.

No, government regulation and the tort system is the reason it is so expensive. How many doctors have full time billing clerks who's sole job is to navigate reimbursements from Medicare, Blue Cross, etc? Yeah, like all of them.
How many tests are ordered not because the doctor thinks it's necessary but because he's afraid of getting sued if he doesnt and things dont work out?
We spend more money on healthcare in part because people here are less heatlhy/ We have a major obesity problem. We have problems from people smoking. We have problems from people drinking too much. Do away with lifestyle induced illness and our healthcare expenditures would be quite low indeed.

 

[blackhawk]

This comes back to the questions which has been brought up a lot in recent years. How much profit is to much? Who gets to decide that? How do they decide that?

 

[Clementine]

Ok. Just to put it bluntly: The ability to save a human life, or vastly improve their life, should NOT be one that is driven by profit.

Whats the answer? Im not sure. People have to get paid for their work, yes. But the HUGE profits being raked in by the pharma companies, hospitals, doctors, etc, at the expense of what?

I recently read of a new pill that can literally cure Hepatitis C. But....the pills are $1,000 each, and a person would need many of them, making the cost prohibitive to insurance companies.

So you have a big pharma company who developed the very expensive pill; And hospitals who can give the very expensive pill; And insurance companies who may have to pay for the pill. And insurance companies don't wanna pay for it.

Just one of many countless examples of how we humans COULD save or help someone.....but, is it profitable? The profit seems to matter more than the end result lately, and it is a bunch of nonsense.

The pure greed of this nation's population is what will destroy us. Not some cavemen in the Middle East.

The hospitals actually don't make a big profit in many cases. Big Pharms make the most money since everyone needs them. They sell to pharmacies and hospitals to get their profit, but the hospitals and pharmacies don't get paid a lot of the time. A lot of hospitals have closed their doors because so many patients don't pay anything toward their bills and the cost gets passed on to those who have insurance.

If every patient would at least pay a small amount toward their bills, it would make a huge difference, but most don't even try.

Obamacare was supported by big pharmacies and we can't import cheaper drugs from Canada or other countries. That makes sure costs won't go down. Obama sided with them over low cost drugs for the people.

Insurance companies can't compete across state lines, which kept costs high.

Too many illegals who don't pay have caused 60 hospitals in California to shut down.

Of course, people should get paid. For those who spent a fortune getting through medical school and long hours of training should get paid very well. Many doctors spend more time working than they do with their families.

If something isn't profit-driven, it might not exist unless people are enslaved by government to serve people. Quality would suffer even more.

Big Pharms and medical supply companies are where most of the costs come from. Hospital costs have gone up because of overhead costs and too many people who don't even pay part of their bills.

Obamacare is making insurance companies wealthier and since they made a deal with Big Pharms, the costs will keep getting as high as the companies want.

Insurance companies competing, allowing more competition among drug companies and people working and able to pay would have been the answer. We are heading in the wrong direction. It's only going to get worse, especially for those who still have to pay the way for others. Costs keep going up. Hospitals and doctors are limiting the number of patients they will accept. Obamacare patients are being excluded by many, so there won't be any point in having insurance if you don't have a doctor. People will still use emergency rooms, now more than before, to get routine health care.

Everything Obamacare was supposed to accomplish won't happen. It was all lies. Socialists don't understand capitalism and never will. It can work great and people can easily afford things when there is a competitive market and people are employed. That is clearly not the result this administration desired. Of course, socialism means causing the economy to collapse. That is what is happening, so arguing about health care being profit-driven is moot. Making things affordable is best and we are going the wrong way if that is the goal.

All companies are profit-driven, but since most compete with others, we can buy so many things cheap. Everyone, even welfare people, have big tvs and all the latest electronics. Car insurance gets cheaper all the time. A fairly regulated free market is the ticket.

I liked my insurance and had reasonable co-pays and deductible. I wanted to keep what I had and be left alone. I am worse off now, like many, because government wanted to help. More people are uninsured now than before they did this. Obama kicked the can down the road a few times because he doesn't want this disaster to affect the elections. If it was so great, it would have been implemented by now. It's not good. The people who wrote it, passed it and will enforce it want out. It sucks.

When government gets involved, things go to shit and get more expensive. They created this crisis with their stupid regulations and control over insurance companies and the medical field. They took advantage of it. Now it's worse. More government is not the answer. Forcing medical personnel into servitude is not the answer. When people invent medical procedures and equipment, they should profit the same as those who invent other things. That is capitalism.

Government helped raise medical costs by offering Medicaid and Medicare, then forcing doctors and hospitals to only accept a portion of the bill and eat the rest. Then they blame insurance companies for not wanting to pay double for other people's bills because the hospitals passed the costs to them.

Big Pharms rule politicians, so they do what they want. I don't recall any outrage over how much they make. Of course, they like Obamacare because they will still profit no matter what happens.

 

[The T]

This comes back to the questions which has been brought up a lot in recent years. How much profit is to much? Who gets to decide that? How do they decide that?

Government decides...ALL they want you to know...conform, confirm or else the IRS is on your doorstep.

 

[Care4all]

ahhhh, but gvt wants and needs businesses to make as MUCH PROFIT as possible so they can collect more in taxes.....businesses ONLY pay taxes on their profits....

 

[Care4all]

No one has proposed just how medical professionals could be forced to work for free. How the equipment providers would be forced to supply the equipment for free or how the pharmaceutical ccompanies could be forced to provide medications for free.

huh? people aren't forced to ''work for free'' just because the business model is one of a NON Profit Katz?

 

[dblack]

No one has proposed just how medical professionals could be forced to work for free. How the equipment providers would be forced to supply the equipment for free or how the pharmaceutical ccompanies could be forced to provide medications for free.

huh? people aren't forced to ''work for free'' just because the business model is one of a NON Profit Katz?

Doctors who operate their own practice are working for profit. Should that be allowed?