Heating and AC , You're screwed

[owebo]

The God-Emperor will deal with this shortly.

Who is that?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Diesels? The crazies have screamed about every upgrade since forever. The result? Efficient, powerful, low pollution engines. If it were up to the luddites, every truck would still be fuel-guzzling fume-belching monster.

The result was actually companies avoiding the purchase of new equipment to not tolerate the problems that come with these new "low pollution" engines. DEF fluid is about $3.00 a gallon or so and the reservoir holds about 13 gallons. It doesn't sound like that much of an expense until you multiply that by ten or more trucks.

One of our tractors is in the shop nearly every single week. It's only four years old. Shop costs are around $75.00 an hour for service plus parts. Before all this BS came about, your truck broke down once a year or so. Today, they break all the time.

Between all the new technology, multiple computers, additional equipment, it increased the cost of a new truck by about 10 grand. To try and offset the additional costs, they started to use cheaper parts; the same mistake American car manufacturers made when unions demanded more money and benefits.

They screamed about light bulbs. The new light bulbs are a raging success. Flac here is even demanding hot light bulbs be used as heaters for the winter, not caring that electric heating is less efficient than a furnace, and apparently thinking we should change out light bulbs seasonally, unless he wants to use them as heaters in summer as well.

They won't heat a house, but aid in heating it. It's like cooking. The heat serves two purposes in the winter time: one of course is to cook your food, and the other is the heat from cooking your food aids in heating your home. I would't try to heat a home by just baking a cake, but again, it helps.

Low flow toilets? Just how much shit do you people create? The first gen was a problem, but that was solved 20 years ago. I've never heard of anyone but a conservative having trouble with them now.

It's not the shit, it's the toilet paper that clogs them up. Trust me, I'm a landlord, I have to unplug toilets all the time. In some cases the only way to avoid the problem is to flush it multiple times whereas the old toilets, you could use much more toilet paper per flush because of the amount of water and the larger diameter of the toilet pipe that goes to the sewer.

 

[owebo]

Diesels? The crazies have screamed about every upgrade since forever. The result? Efficient, powerful, low pollution engines. If it were up to the luddites, every truck would still be fuel-guzzling fume-belching monster.

The result was actually companies avoiding the purchase of new equipment to not tolerate the problems that come with these new "low pollution" engines. DEF fluid is about $3.00 a gallon or so and the reservoir holds about 13 gallons. It doesn't sound like that much of an expense until you multiply that by ten or more trucks.

One of our tractors is in the shop nearly every single week. It's only four years old. Shop costs are around $75.00 an hour for service plus parts. Before all this BS came about, your truck broke down once a year or so. Today, they break all the time.

Between all the new technology, multiple computers, additional equipment, it increased the cost of a new truck by about 10 grand. To try and offset the additional costs, they started to use cheaper parts; the same mistake American car manufacturers made when unions demanded more money and benefits.

They screamed about light bulbs. The new light bulbs are a raging success. Flac here is even demanding hot light bulbs be used as heaters for the winter, not caring that electric heating is less efficient than a furnace, and apparently thinking we should change out light bulbs seasonally, unless he wants to use them as heaters in summer as well.

They won't heat a house, but aid in heating it. It's like cooking. The heat serves two purposes in the winter time: one of course is to cook your food, and the other is the heat from cooking your food aids in heating your home. I would't try to heat a home my just baking a cake, but again, it helps.

Low flow toilets? Just how much shit do you people create? The first gen was a problem, but that was solved 20 years ago. I've never heard of anyone but a conservative having trouble with them now.

It's not the shit, it's the toilet paper that clogs them up. Trust me, I'm a landlord, I have to unplug toilets all the time. Is some cases the only way to avoid the problem is to flush it multiple times whereas the old toilets, you could use much more toilet paper per flush because of the amount of water and the larger diameter of the toilet pipe that goes to the sewer.

Low flow toilets are a disaster to the environment.....it's just incredible the damage they do.....

 

[Marion Morrison]

Sounds like crap. Maytag products suck.

My 1972 Maytag washer/dryer set is chugging along fine. I've replaced the heating element in the dryer once, that's all.

Yeah, they're not making them like that anymore.

If/when mine dies, I'm looking for an old one. Last one lasted 20+ years.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Diesels? The crazies have screamed about every upgrade since forever. The result? Efficient, powerful, low pollution engines. If it were up to the luddites, every truck would still be fuel-guzzling fume-belching monster.

The result was actually companies avoiding the purchase of new equipment to not tolerate the problems that come with these new "low pollution" engines. DEF fluid is about $3.00 a gallon or so and the reservoir holds about 13 gallons. It doesn't sound like that much of an expense until you multiply that by ten or more trucks.

One of our tractors is in the shop nearly every single week. It's only four years old. Shop costs are around $75.00 an hour for service plus parts. Before all this BS came about, your truck broke down once a year or so. Today, they break all the time.

Between all the new technology, multiple computers, additional equipment, it increased the cost of a new truck by about 10 grand. To try and offset the additional costs, they started to use cheaper parts; the same mistake American car manufacturers made when unions demanded more money and benefits.

They screamed about light bulbs. The new light bulbs are a raging success. Flac here is even demanding hot light bulbs be used as heaters for the winter, not caring that electric heating is less efficient than a furnace, and apparently thinking we should change out light bulbs seasonally, unless he wants to use them as heaters in summer as well.

They won't heat a house, but aid in heating it. It's like cooking. The heat serves two purposes in the winter time: one of course is to cook your food, and the other is the heat from cooking your food aids in heating your home. I would't try to heat a home my just baking a cake, but again, it helps.

Low flow toilets? Just how much shit do you people create? The first gen was a problem, but that was solved 20 years ago. I've never heard of anyone but a conservative having trouble with them now.

It's not the shit, it's the toilet paper that clogs them up. Trust me, I'm a landlord, I have to unplug toilets all the time. Is some cases the only way to avoid the problem is to flush it multiple times whereas the old toilets, you could use much more toilet paper per flush because of the amount of water and the larger diameter of the toilet pipe that goes to the sewer.

Low flow toilets are a disaster to the environment.....it's just incredible the damage they do.....

I don't know if they do any damage, but I don't think they helped save that much water. I mean think of how ridiculous it is, the government governing our toilets.

I remember when the new low water toilets came out. People were going into Canada and buying bootleg toilets to resell here in the US like booze, drugs or cigarettes.

A couple of years ago I had to get my snowblower repaired. When the mechanic came out, I told him of another problem I was having which is you couldn't operate the unit with the choke fully opened. He said that was not defect, that's the way they make them these days. Thanks to pollution regulations, they were forced to make them that way. You don't have as much emissions, but you also lose engine power.

 

[Marion Morrison]

Why would it quit? 14 SEER units have been mandatory for new sales for two years now. There's been no news of problems with every new unit in the nation. And nobody is mandated to get a heat pump instead of a furnace and A/C.

It "quits" because it's too cold outside for the wimpier "efficient" compressors to work on the wimpier gas that goes with them.. Duh.. It still is capable of keeping up with the house loss if it runs all the time or just runs in conjunction with the heat strips. LITERALLY -- Mine can't keep up on a 1200 ft zone space when it's below 30degF or so.

But again, you're losing efficiency in the 7 months as well as the 3 months.

Again -- for that 7 months you're not losing a thing. Every watt goes to light -- or heat. The stupid ass bureaucrat view is to measure lamp efficiency as Lumen/Watt. Which is where they found the key to KILLING incandescents. But every other watt that doesn't go to Lumens goes to heat. 100% efficient when you need to heat that space where the lights are on and you're in the room.

I think the way they screwed up the Heat Pump efficiency calculation is a similar deal where they ignore or downplay the trade-off between the much more efficient compressor output and the terribly INefficient Heat Strip backup. In fact, just having designed a product to IMPROVE the heat strip efficiency for a client -- Even tho the compressor side is losing the battle to heat your home -- they STILL keep the compressor side running because of it's INHERENT greater efficiency even when the Heat Strips turn on.. Because it lessens the ON cycle of the heat strips.

Sounds like you need a bigger unit.

What size is it?

 

[owebo]

Diesels? The crazies have screamed about every upgrade since forever. The result? Efficient, powerful, low pollution engines. If it were up to the luddites, every truck would still be fuel-guzzling fume-belching monster.

The result was actually companies avoiding the purchase of new equipment to not tolerate the problems that come with these new "low pollution" engines. DEF fluid is about $3.00 a gallon or so and the reservoir holds about 13 gallons. It doesn't sound like that much of an expense until you multiply that by ten or more trucks.

One of our tractors is in the shop nearly every single week. It's only four years old. Shop costs are around $75.00 an hour for service plus parts. Before all this BS came about, your truck broke down once a year or so. Today, they break all the time.

Between all the new technology, multiple computers, additional equipment, it increased the cost of a new truck by about 10 grand. To try and offset the additional costs, they started to use cheaper parts; the same mistake American car manufacturers made when unions demanded more money and benefits.

They screamed about light bulbs. The new light bulbs are a raging success. Flac here is even demanding hot light bulbs be used as heaters for the winter, not caring that electric heating is less efficient than a furnace, and apparently thinking we should change out light bulbs seasonally, unless he wants to use them as heaters in summer as well.

They won't heat a house, but aid in heating it. It's like cooking. The heat serves two purposes in the winter time: one of course is to cook your food, and the other is the heat from cooking your food aids in heating your home. I would't try to heat a home my just baking a cake, but again, it helps.

Low flow toilets? Just how much shit do you people create? The first gen was a problem, but that was solved 20 years ago. I've never heard of anyone but a conservative having trouble with them now.

It's not the shit, it's the toilet paper that clogs them up. Trust me, I'm a landlord, I have to unplug toilets all the time. Is some cases the only way to avoid the problem is to flush it multiple times whereas the old toilets, you could use much more toilet paper per flush because of the amount of water and the larger diameter of the toilet pipe that goes to the sewer.

Low flow toilets are a disaster to the environment.....it's just incredible the damage they do.....

I don't know if they do any damage, but I don't think they helped save that much water. I mean think of how ridiculous it is, the government governing our toilets.

I remember when the new low water toilets came out. People were going into Canada and buying bootleg toilets to resell here in the US like booze, drugs or cigarettes.

A couple of years ago I had to get my snowblower repaired. When the mechanic came out, I told him of another problem I was having which is you couldn't operate the unit with the choke fully opened. He said that was not defect, that's the way they make them these days. Thanks to pollution regulations, they were forced to make them that way. You don't have as much emissions, but you also lose engine power.

They do tremendous damage....our nations wastewater treatment plants are not designed for them.....

 

[Iceweasel]

Appliances? All more efficient now.

If we had listened to these luddites, our economy would be getting reamed by the inefficient technology wasting massive amounts of energy, on top of environmental damage. And we wouldn't be able to sell the US goods in europe an other markets, so exports would be hammered. It's as if the luddites want to destroy both our economy and our environment.

LOL at the name calling then immediately launching into brainwashed tripe. Technology has always moved forward and always will. Government forcing standards ahead of time causes all kinds of problems and we end users take it in the shorts.

Due to CAFE standards I lost a car engine, and my ass. Got stuck in Canada. The engine was too small for the body but GM stuck it in there to meet government regulations.

Appliances for the most part are not made to last. You can find refrigerators from the 50s still plugging along. My HE Samsung washing machine died. Sure it used less water but when I replaced it with a Speed Queen, made the old fashioned way, I discovered it took twice as long. I use more water per load now but do it in half the time. Electricity costs money too.

Save your lecture for your fellow drones.

 

[Iceweasel]

BTW -- in the winter -- your house and thermostat don't care if that BTU came from the furnace or a 400 Watt light fixture. And with incandescents the energy either went to photons or to heat. So the heat was never wasted when your thermostat was in heat cycle. Now even in Tenn -- my HVAC is set to heat 7 months of the year and 2 more months where it's essentially OFF. Leaving a mere 3 months of peak cooling. So even with that math -- in MOST states in the US -- the Incandescent was GREATLY maligned for "wasting" anything. In fact, I've got a buddy that does builder energy certification and NOW they have new charts and tables to reflect the missing "heat load" from switching to LED lighting.

CFLs are another thing. The government rammed them down our throats, turns out they are a disposal hazard and didn't light up for shit when cold. Or dimable. Along comes the greedy capitalists and offer us LEDs just a few short years later. They come on full power right away, dimable, run dirt cheap and run cool to the touch and are getting cheaper to purchase by the day. CFLs are already obsolete in my opinion.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

BTW -- in the winter -- your house and thermostat don't care if that BTU came from the furnace or a 400 Watt light fixture. And with incandescents the energy either went to photons or to heat. So the heat was never wasted when your thermostat was in heat cycle. Now even in Tenn -- my HVAC is set to heat 7 months of the year and 2 more months where it's essentially OFF. Leaving a mere 3 months of peak cooling. So even with that math -- in MOST states in the US -- the Incandescent was GREATLY maligned for "wasting" anything. In fact, I've got a buddy that does builder energy certification and NOW they have new charts and tables to reflect the missing "heat load" from switching to LED lighting.

CFLs are another thing. The government rammed them down our throats, turns out they are a disposal hazard and didn't light up for shit when cold. Or dimable. Along comes the greedy capitalists and offer us LEDs just a few short years later. They come on full power right away, dimable, run dirt cheap and run cool to the touch and are getting cheaper to purchase by the day. CFLs are already obsolete in my opinion.

I have about five boxes of incandescent bulbs I'm sitting on right now. Before the ban went into effect, I bought a ton of lightbulbs; enough to last me (probably) the rest of my life. So I really don't care what they come out with now.

 

[Marion Morrison]

BTW -- in the winter -- your house and thermostat don't care if that BTU came from the furnace or a 400 Watt light fixture. And with incandescents the energy either went to photons or to heat. So the heat was never wasted when your thermostat was in heat cycle. Now even in Tenn -- my HVAC is set to heat 7 months of the year and 2 more months where it's essentially OFF. Leaving a mere 3 months of peak cooling. So even with that math -- in MOST states in the US -- the Incandescent was GREATLY maligned for "wasting" anything. In fact, I've got a buddy that does builder energy certification and NOW they have new charts and tables to reflect the missing "heat load" from switching to LED lighting.

CFLs are another thing. The government rammed them down our throats, turns out they are a disposal hazard and didn't light up for shit when cold. Or dimable. Along comes the greedy capitalists and offer us LEDs just a few short years later. They come on full power right away, dimable, run dirt cheap and run cool to the touch and are getting cheaper to purchase by the day. CFLs are already obsolete in my opinion.

I'll replace mine with LEDs as they burn out. My house pops incandecsents within 3 weeks religiously.

I have a couple CFLs that are over 1 year old now. I have several boxes of regular. I'll sell them @ a yard sale for a quarter a pop.

 

[Freewill]

I didn't even realize...

I guess this January the government , with their "efficiency" BS , made 14 SEER heating and air conditioning the minimum which can be sold in the U.S.

One of the manufacturers told us they are barley scraping by making 14 SEER equipment, if the government raises the minimum to 15 SEER (which I think they are already planning to do) then we're talking about high efficiency motors. In my area high efficiency motors average $1500.

The high efficiency equipment designers have a habit of placing several circuit boards into one system. circuit boards are $400 to $800. Many go out without any reason.

Like everything else, the government is going to save you 5 bucks on your monthly bill , but send the money back to the economy with high repair costs.





By-the-way, I heard something about a new refrigerant for cars, R1234 , currently selling for $1000 per jug

Tell me about it. I've just done a project for a client to improve the Heat Strip efficiency that's used for "emergency back-up".. And I KNOW that my 12 Seer bottom floor unit is completely fagged out anytime it's below freezing out. Nothing like Govt logic of making fans/compressors run ALL DAY by lowering the energy used..

Below 30 degF outside, the unit runs CONSTANTLY and loses ground until the 10KWatt electric heat strips finally kick in and suck the juice right out of the power company..

It's madness. Sheer madness. With a little bit of fraud and hubris mixed in... .

I don't believe heat pumps can work below a certain point. My runs pretty continuous below 45 deg.

I put in a 15 seer a few years ago and it wasn't much more expensive then a lower SEER unit. Maybe if the efficiency is correct it will pay for the difference. Any way I should have just done it myself. The crew(s) that came out couldn't get the fossil fuel conversion correct so they installed something else. They didn't give me near enough of an explanation on how the thing is suppose to work and only one really was nice enough to talk to me. The only problem I might have had doing it myself would be cutting the duct and charging the Unit, both of which I could have paid someone to do. DIY is the way to save money in my opinion, but do you home work.

 

[Iceweasel]

BTW -- in the winter -- your house and thermostat don't care if that BTU came from the furnace or a 400 Watt light fixture. And with incandescents the energy either went to photons or to heat. So the heat was never wasted when your thermostat was in heat cycle. Now even in Tenn -- my HVAC is set to heat 7 months of the year and 2 more months where it's essentially OFF. Leaving a mere 3 months of peak cooling. So even with that math -- in MOST states in the US -- the Incandescent was GREATLY maligned for "wasting" anything. In fact, I've got a buddy that does builder energy certification and NOW they have new charts and tables to reflect the missing "heat load" from switching to LED lighting.

CFLs are another thing. The government rammed them down our throats, turns out they are a disposal hazard and didn't light up for shit when cold. Or dimable. Along comes the greedy capitalists and offer us LEDs just a few short years later. They come on full power right away, dimable, run dirt cheap and run cool to the touch and are getting cheaper to purchase by the day. CFLs are already obsolete in my opinion.

I have about five boxes of incandescent bulbs I'm sitting on right now. Before the ban went into effect, I bought a ton of lightbulbs; enough to last me (probably) the rest of my life. So I really don't care what they come out with now.

I think the ban was lifted. They have been available here no for years. Maybe it's a state thing, dunno.

 

[Iceweasel]

BTW -- in the winter -- your house and thermostat don't care if that BTU came from the furnace or a 400 Watt light fixture. And with incandescents the energy either went to photons or to heat. So the heat was never wasted when your thermostat was in heat cycle. Now even in Tenn -- my HVAC is set to heat 7 months of the year and 2 more months where it's essentially OFF. Leaving a mere 3 months of peak cooling. So even with that math -- in MOST states in the US -- the Incandescent was GREATLY maligned for "wasting" anything. In fact, I've got a buddy that does builder energy certification and NOW they have new charts and tables to reflect the missing "heat load" from switching to LED lighting.

CFLs are another thing. The government rammed them down our throats, turns out they are a disposal hazard and didn't light up for shit when cold. Or dimable. Along comes the greedy capitalists and offer us LEDs just a few short years later. They come on full power right away, dimable, run dirt cheap and run cool to the touch and are getting cheaper to purchase by the day. CFLs are already obsolete in my opinion.

I'll replace mine with LEDs as they burn out. My house pops incandecsents within 3 weeks religiously.

I have a couple CFLs that are over 1 year old now. I have several boxes of regular. I'll sell them @ a yard sale for a quarter a pop.

There are some cheap bulbs out there but three weeks is very short. I have acustomer that has the issue so I inspected the fixture, the socket is corroded over so not getting a good current draw. Some sockets are rough from the get go.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

BTW -- in the winter -- your house and thermostat don't care if that BTU came from the furnace or a 400 Watt light fixture. And with incandescents the energy either went to photons or to heat. So the heat was never wasted when your thermostat was in heat cycle. Now even in Tenn -- my HVAC is set to heat 7 months of the year and 2 more months where it's essentially OFF. Leaving a mere 3 months of peak cooling. So even with that math -- in MOST states in the US -- the Incandescent was GREATLY maligned for "wasting" anything. In fact, I've got a buddy that does builder energy certification and NOW they have new charts and tables to reflect the missing "heat load" from switching to LED lighting.

CFLs are another thing. The government rammed them down our throats, turns out they are a disposal hazard and didn't light up for shit when cold. Or dimable. Along comes the greedy capitalists and offer us LEDs just a few short years later. They come on full power right away, dimable, run dirt cheap and run cool to the touch and are getting cheaper to purchase by the day. CFLs are already obsolete in my opinion.

I have about five boxes of incandescent bulbs I'm sitting on right now. Before the ban went into effect, I bought a ton of lightbulbs; enough to last me (probably) the rest of my life. So I really don't care what they come out with now.

I think the ban was lifted. They have been available here no for years. Maybe it's a state thing, dunno.

I will have to check into that. No, our state is entirely Republican run, so I don't think my state has anything to do with it. But then again, I haven't bought lightbulbs in several years so I never looked into it.

 

[Marion Morrison]

BTW -- in the winter -- your house and thermostat don't care if that BTU came from the furnace or a 400 Watt light fixture. And with incandescents the energy either went to photons or to heat. So the heat was never wasted when your thermostat was in heat cycle. Now even in Tenn -- my HVAC is set to heat 7 months of the year and 2 more months where it's essentially OFF. Leaving a mere 3 months of peak cooling. So even with that math -- in MOST states in the US -- the Incandescent was GREATLY maligned for "wasting" anything. In fact, I've got a buddy that does builder energy certification and NOW they have new charts and tables to reflect the missing "heat load" from switching to LED lighting.

CFLs are another thing. The government rammed them down our throats, turns out they are a disposal hazard and didn't light up for shit when cold. Or dimable. Along comes the greedy capitalists and offer us LEDs just a few short years later. They come on full power right away, dimable, run dirt cheap and run cool to the touch and are getting cheaper to purchase by the day. CFLs are already obsolete in my opinion.

I'll replace mine with LEDs as they burn out. My house pops incandecsents within 3 weeks religiously.

I have a couple CFLs that are over 1 year old now. I have several boxes of regular. I'll sell them @ a yard sale for a quarter a pop.

There are some cheap bulbs out there but three weeks is very short. I have acustomer that has the issue so I inspected the fixture, the socket is corroded over so not getting a good current draw. Some sockets are rough from the get go.

Mostly it's wired fixtures.

 

[owebo]

BTW -- in the winter -- your house and thermostat don't care if that BTU came from the furnace or a 400 Watt light fixture. And with incandescents the energy either went to photons or to heat. So the heat was never wasted when your thermostat was in heat cycle. Now even in Tenn -- my HVAC is set to heat 7 months of the year and 2 more months where it's essentially OFF. Leaving a mere 3 months of peak cooling. So even with that math -- in MOST states in the US -- the Incandescent was GREATLY maligned for "wasting" anything. In fact, I've got a buddy that does builder energy certification and NOW they have new charts and tables to reflect the missing "heat load" from switching to LED lighting.

CFLs are another thing. The government rammed them down our throats, turns out they are a disposal hazard and didn't light up for shit when cold. Or dimable. Along comes the greedy capitalists and offer us LEDs just a few short years later. They come on full power right away, dimable, run dirt cheap and run cool to the touch and are getting cheaper to purchase by the day. CFLs are already obsolete in my opinion.

I have about five boxes of incandescent bulbs I'm sitting on right now. Before the ban went into effect, I bought a ton of lightbulbs; enough to last me (probably) the rest of my life. So I really don't care what they come out with now.

I think the ban was lifted. They have been available here no for years. Maybe it's a state thing, dunno.

But all the manufacturing facilities were relocated overseas thanks to democrats...l imagine federal trade laws stop them from being imported now....

 

[Billo_Really]

I didn't even realize...

I guess this January the government , with their "efficiency" BS , made 14 SEER heating and air conditioning the minimum which can be sold in the U.S.

One of the manufacturers told us they are barley scraping by making 14 SEER equipment, if the government raises the minimum to 15 SEER (which I think they are already planning to do) then we're talking about high efficiency motors. In my area high efficiency motors average $1500.

The high efficiency equipment designers have a habit of placing several circuit boards into one system. circuit boards are $400 to $800. Many go out without any reason.

Like everything else, the government is going to save you 5 bucks on your monthly bill , but send the money back to the economy with high repair costs.





By-the-way, I heard something about a new refrigerant for cars, R1234 , currently selling for $1000 per jug

Energy efficiency is a good thing.

 

[owebo]

I didn't even realize...

I guess this January the government , with their "efficiency" BS , made 14 SEER heating and air conditioning the minimum which can be sold in the U.S.

One of the manufacturers told us they are barley scraping by making 14 SEER equipment, if the government raises the minimum to 15 SEER (which I think they are already planning to do) then we're talking about high efficiency motors. In my area high efficiency motors average $1500.

The high efficiency equipment designers have a habit of placing several circuit boards into one system. circuit boards are $400 to $800. Many go out without any reason.

Like everything else, the government is going to save you 5 bucks on your monthly bill , but send the money back to the economy with high repair costs.





By-the-way, I heard something about a new refrigerant for cars, R1234 , currently selling for $1000 per jug

Energy efficiency is a good thing.

Except when it harms the environment....

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

BTW -- in the winter -- your house and thermostat don't care if that BTU came from the furnace or a 400 Watt light fixture. And with incandescents the energy either went to photons or to heat. So the heat was never wasted when your thermostat was in heat cycle. Now even in Tenn -- my HVAC is set to heat 7 months of the year and 2 more months where it's essentially OFF. Leaving a mere 3 months of peak cooling. So even with that math -- in MOST states in the US -- the Incandescent was GREATLY maligned for "wasting" anything. In fact, I've got a buddy that does builder energy certification and NOW they have new charts and tables to reflect the missing "heat load" from switching to LED lighting.

CFLs are another thing. The government rammed them down our throats, turns out they are a disposal hazard and didn't light up for shit when cold. Or dimable. Along comes the greedy capitalists and offer us LEDs just a few short years later. They come on full power right away, dimable, run dirt cheap and run cool to the touch and are getting cheaper to purchase by the day. CFLs are already obsolete in my opinion.

I have about five boxes of incandescent bulbs I'm sitting on right now. Before the ban went into effect, I bought a ton of lightbulbs; enough to last me (probably) the rest of my life. So I really don't care what they come out with now.

That is exactly what we did, Ray. We have far more than five boxes but we live in a large house. We do not use lights in rooms we are not in wasteful either. My husband just told me that we have enough bulbs to last us three lifetimes. I guess we're set but when the US gets hit by an EMP it won't really matter. I saw an article about people who used plastic 2 qt. soda bottles with a small amount of bleach and water sunk into their rooftops that somehow reflected light at night and lit up their homes. I thought that was interesting. If there is a will there is a way.