Historically, when has a sanction worked?

[blackhawk]

You stop a despot like Putin with force this is done by one of two ways a large force of NATO troops including American go into Ukraine and fight Putin's force with the Ukraine military or supply Ukraine with both offensive and defensive weapons to fight Russia with. I have no desire to see U.S. troops sent into Ukraine but if you want Putin stopped these are the only two realistic options I see.

 

[martybegan]

I watched this great movie. It's called "They Shall Not Grow Old". At the end one soldier was asked what he hoped would be taken from what happened during WWI. He said he hoped we learn to never do anything like that ever again. Well, obviously we didn't.

If a country isn't interested in being taken over, they have to fight back. We were defeated in both Iraq and Afghanistan by people who decided that. WWII doesn't happen if people didn't simply walk into the trains.

That is a shallow and misguided view of history.

WWII happened because Germany wanted it to happen, and Japan wanted it to happen. It didn't matter that GB and France didn't want it to happen, it happened anyway.

 

[westwall]

Just say'in.

I mean, what sanctions could ever hold down a despot hell bent on war?

Hmm?

Also, FYI, higher taxes don't make global temperatures go down either.

But that is for another thread.

They seemed to work under Trump.

 

[Circe]

What if he decides to gun for Poland, or the Baltic States, i.e. NATO members?

First let those states and the European states fight Russia. Right now they want us to do all the heavy lifting while they don't bother. If they don't care, we sure shouldn't. I DO NOT CARE what country of Europe Putin takes over IF Europe doesn't bother to fight.

Reminds me of the Hitler crisis: 1935 he rearmed the Rhineland. 1936 started (illegal) conscription and rearming. 1936 started major fighting in support of Franco in Spain. 1938 Anschluss with Austria. Taking over the Sudetenland. 1939 Taking over Czechoslovakia. Invading Poland. 1940: nobody was STILL fighting Germany, so Hitler took over Norway and Denmark. May 10: took over France in ten days and they STILL didn't fight! And Britain boogied for home at Dunkirk and hoped for the best.

Smartest thing we could ever do is stay right out of military incompetence on such a high order as that. That's what is going on now with Ukraine: Europe simply does not care. They want the Russian oil, and they just don't care, and simply hope Putin won't go further.

Let them fight if they care to. If they don't, the heck with them. That is their continent and they are responsible, not us.

 

[martybegan]

You stop a despot like Putin with force this is done by one of two ways a large force of NATO troops including American go into Ukraine and fight Putin's force with the Ukraine military or supply Ukraine with both offensive and defensive weapons to fight Russia with. I have no desire to see U.S. troops sent into Ukraine but if you want Putin stopped these are the only two realistic options I see.

A total embargo might work. I mean total. You turn off NG to Germany, you stop them from importing anything. you stop buying anything from them.

This wouldn't be a blockade, which would be the next step. Places like China, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea and China would still trade with them, but that's limited in scope.

 

[martybegan]

First let those states and the European states fight Russia. Right now they want us to do all the heavy lifting while they don't bother. If they don't care, we sure shouldn't. I DO NOT CARE what country of Europe Putin takes over IF Europe doesn't bother to fight.

Reminds me of the Hitler crisis: 1935 he rearmed the Rhineland. 1936 started (illegal) conscription and rearming. 1936 started major fighting in support of Franco in Spain. 1938 Anschluss with Austria. Taking over the Sudetenland. 1939 Taking over Czechoslovakia. Invading Poland. 1940: nobody was STILL fighting Germany, so Hitler took over Norway and Denmark. May 10: took over France in ten days and they STILL didn't fight! And Britain boogied for home at Dunkirk and hoped for the best.

Smartest thing we could ever do is stay right out of military incompetence on such a high order as that. That's what is going on now with Ukraine: Europe simply does not care. They want the Russian oil, and they just don't care, and simply hope Putin won't go further.

Let them fight if they care to. If they don't, the heck with them. That is their continent and they are responsible, not us.

So you are saying leave NATO?

 

[pknopp]

That is a shallow and misguided view of history.

WWII happened because Germany wanted it to happen, and Japan wanted it to happen. It didn't matter that GB and France didn't want it to happen, it happened anyway.

Hitler never comes into power if not for the "sanctions" on Germany after WWI. We will never learn.

 

[Circe]

That is a shallow and misguided view of history.

WWII happened because Germany wanted it to happen, and Japan wanted it to happen. It didn't matter that GB and France didn't want it to happen, it happened anyway.

It sure mattered that they didn't bother to fight!!!

And here we go again. Do NOT fight other people's battles.

 

[martybegan]

Hitler never comes into power if not for the "sanctions" on Germany after WWI. We will never learn.

They thought they could control German militarism, and for a while they did. France in particular was determined not to fight them again, ever.

What do you think the German terms on France and the UK would have looked like if they won?

It was a mistake, but it is explainable and excusable based on the information they had at the time.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

 

[Votto]

What else is there?

 

[Votto]

So, I'll pencil you in for ''supports total nuclear war'' since you seem to think more than sanctions is necessary - and you are talking about a Nuclear power (Russia).

Who said I supported nuclear war?

LOL.

 

[Circe]

Hitler never comes into power if not for the "sanctions" on Germany after WWI. We will never learn.

! That's an interesting point. I suppose it would be fair to call all those reparations and constraints "sanctions."

I don't agree that's why Hitler rose, though: Germany was never really defeated in WWI and a hung war is a war that is not over. That's why in WWII the Allies made very sure Germany KNEW it was defeated ----------- and we have troops on large bases watching them to this very day. Because Germans are Germans, and they WILL do it again if they are allowed to.

 

[pknopp]

They thought they could control German militarism, and for a while they did. France in particular was determined not to fight them again, ever.

What do you think the German terms on France and the UK would have looked like if they won?

It was a mistake, but it is explainable and excusable based on the information they had at the time.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

We have the benefit today and will still make the same mistakes. Ukraine appears to be fighting back and if so the same thing that happened to Russia in Afghanistan will happen in Ukraine.

 

[Circe]

The first decade or two wasn't bad. The problem is what has happened in other African countries is happening there now, and it's devolved into cronyism and corruption.

And savages.

 

[martybegan]

It sure mattered that they didn't bother to fight!!!

And here we go again. Do NOT fight other people's battles.

Forgetting the lessons of pre-WWII that nipping shit it the bud may prevent it from becoming our battle on our own doorstep.

 

[pknopp]

! That's an interesting point. I suppose it would be fair to call all those reparations and constraints "sanctions."

I don't agree that's why Hitler rose, though: Germany was never really defeated in WWI and a hung war is a war that is not over. That's why in WWII the Allies made very sure Germany KNEW it was defeated ----------- and we have troops on large bases watching them to this very day. Because Germans are Germans, and they WILL do it again if they are allowed to.

When do you suppose people will stop us from invading other countries? Are you unable to see the damage the lies we created to invade Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, etc have done?

 

[martybegan]

We have the benefit today and will still make the same mistakes. Ukraine appears to be fighting back and if so the same thing that happened to Russia in Afghanistan will happen in Ukraine.

Again, wrong terrain type and wrong people.

Ukraine is perfect for mobile armored warfare, Afghanistan is not.

Afghanis have a long history of fucking over invaders, Ukraine is one of the most conquered pieces of land out there, maybe besides Poland.

 

[Votto]

South Africa maybe, and that took decades.

But Putin has China and the far Left refuses to do the same to China.

They can't even boycott the Olympics there.

LOL.

 

[martybegan]

And savages.

The blame is more on the self-aggrandizing corrupt assholes now running the show.

 

[martybegan]

But Putin has China and the far Left refuses to do the same to China.

They can't even boycott the Olympics there.

LOL.

I think letting the Olympics happen there was better with regards to shining a flashlight on China and how much it sucks.