Historically, when has a sanction worked?

[pknopp]

Wow, so if you were in charge you would send 100k troops, us citizens to stand on the Russia Ukraine border… really?!

What is 100,000 lives when you have politics to promote?

 

[Godboy]

Maybe Putin should have posted troops on the Syrian border to keep us out of there. Recall Russia was telling us to stay out. We did not listen.

If it was important enough to him, he would have.

 

[martybegan]

Munich had nothing at all to do with us. If Europe just wants to appease, and that is what they seem to want now, what can anyone really say?

Actually, I agree with Trump: NATO is worn out. Much good NATO did us in Afghanistan or Iraq. They really just got in our way and didn't do anything anyway, for the most part. I'd be fine with leaving NATO, as I guess was implied by my satisfaction with our policy in both (NATO-free) world wars: come in late, clean up the place.

It led to us having to do with Europe. They could have nipped it in the bud, they didn't. We can nip this in the bud, if Putin is actually eying other areas, but right now we aren't.

The thing is with Nukes we might not be able to go in after and clean up. Different equation than WWI and WWII

 

[Godboy]

What is 100,000 lives when you have politics to promote?

Why? Their lives wouldnt be in any danger.

 

[Slade3200]

Id like someone in the White House who can do more than retard Biden.

That has nothing to do with my question. What would you like to see happen to better handle the Ukraine Russia situation. Sounds like you wouldn't do sanctions. Is sending 100k troops in your genius plan?

 

[Godboy]

Wow, so if you were in charge you would send 100k troops, us citizens to stand on the Russia Ukraine border… really?!

I said that was one way to stop him. Im sure there are many other ways.

 

[pknopp]

If it was important enough to him, he would have.

Maybe he wasn't willing to risk Russian lives for Syria?

 

[Slade3200]

What is 100,000 lives when you have politics to promote?

That idiot isn’t promoting politics he is just trying to act tough. Watch him change his tune if Biden sends troops in

 

[Couchpotato]

Have you seen the polls? People are saying no more wars.

What the fuck are you talking about now?

 

[Slade3200]

I said that was one way to stop him. Im sure there are many other ways.

I see the back peddling starting already. Ok if that is one way of stopping Putin, is it a call that you would make? Send 100k of our finest over there… president godboy?

 

[Circe]

They ignore Clausewitz, and the concept that victory can only be achieved once the cause of the conflict is resolved.

I've read "On War," I have it, but didn't recall that quotation. But I think it a lot: the war in 1914 could not be settled in 1918 not only because Germany didn't believe it had lost (and I would partly agree with that --- they climbed out of trenches in a foreign country and walked home! That's no defeat.) But also because the central issue in 1914 was that Germany wanted hegemony and indeed control and rule all over Europe, as Napoleon also intended before them. Since they left WWI with an Armistice (not a defeat) that cause of the conflict was never resolved and Hitler took it right up again.

My favorite quote on that was Ludendorff, who said, finally, "Get me an Armistice. Get an Armistice, and in five years we'll go again."

It was more than five years, but yeah --- it just wasn't over.

I suppose you could say the cause of WWI was STILL never resolved, but Germany does control Europe now, of course. They've had to use soft power instead of Blitzkrieg because we are watching them all the time.

 

[zaangalewa]

Just say'in.

I mean, what sanctions could ever hold down a despot hell bent on war? ...

The Russian oligarchs lost yesterday 30 billions. I don't say I'm sad about. This god damned war will cost them much more - and also many other wealthy Russians who are responsible for this history changing desaster. They had all chances for a respected life in peace and wealth. They like to live like thugs - so they will get the life of thugs - and the consequences out of this life. This will be anything else than comfortable for Russia.

 

[Circe]

Do we exert influence on other countries, especially ones we just took over? Yes. The thing you forget is if we aren't the ones exerting influence, someone else will, these countries won't just be left to their own devices.

American influence is one of the most benign types in history, less so then the English colonization of the past, but more than the current Commonwealth setup they have now.

If we aren't there, China and others would be.

Well, you do have a point there. Iran is a notable example. We sanctioned them up one side and down the other, but their influence and troublemaking and threats are continual.

All the same, I can't forgive our forever failures in Iraq and Afghanistan.

At least after Mogadishu we've stayed more or less out of Africa. It was China's turn to try to do something with those benighted barbarians, and much joy may they have of it. Everyone else but us broke on that rock. We couldn't really do anything about Africa because of the black problem here.

 

[martybegan]

I've read "On War," I have it, but didn't recall that quotation. But I think it a lot: the war in 1914 could not be settled in 1918 not only because Germany didn't believe it had lost (and I would partly agree with that --- they climbed out of trenches in a foreign country and walked home! That's no defeat.) But also because the central issue in 1914 was that Germany wanted hegemony and indeed control and rule all over Europe, as Napoleon also intended before them. Since they left WWI with an Armistice (not a defeat) that cause of the conflict was never resolved and Hitler took it right up again.

My favorite quote on that was Ludendorff, who said, finally, "Get me an Armistice. Get an Armistice, and in five years we'll go again."

It was more than five years, but yeah --- it just wasn't over.

I suppose you could say the cause of WWI was STILL never resolved, but Germany does control Europe now, of course. They've had to use soft power instead of Blitzkrieg because we are watching them all the time.

They are the biggest economy in Europe, why shouldn't they have a leadership position. Gaining control economically is the fair way of doing it, not using tanks.

I forgot the exact chapter, but what you described vis a vis WWI and WWII was what Clauswitz was getting at. If you don't remove the REASON for the conflict via victory, you get just a break.

An example translated to politics is the Abortion argument, Roe wasn't a Clauswitzian victory, just an armistice.

 

[martybegan]

Well, you do have a point there. Iran is a notable example. We sanctioned them up one side and down the other, but their influence and troublemaking and threats are continual.

All the same, I can't forgive our forever failures in Iraq and Afghanistan.

At least after Mogadishu we've stayed more or less out of Africa. It was China's turn to try to do something with those benighted barbarians, and much joy may they have of it. Everyone else but us broke on that rock. We couldn't really do anything about Africa because of the black problem here.

The thing is our retreat from Mogidishu coupled with leaving Lebanon after the Marine Barracks bombing is what probably gave Bin Laden the idea that if he hit us hard with a terrorist attack, we might leave the Middle East.

 

[zaangalewa]

... but Germany does control Europe now ...

What a bullshit.

 

[Circe]

That the world decided to continue to stomp on Germany is why Hitler was able to come into power. People with nothing to lose are the real dangerous people.

I can't agree with that! You are buying into the silly idea that the world was so mean to Germany that Hitler just had to get some revenge for the poor little krauts.

Germans had a WHOLE lot less to lose after the total defeat of WWII, and they haven't made a peep since. They learned. I don't think you have read much about Berlin, 1945.

 

[Circe]

The thing is our retreat from Mogidishu coupled with leaving Lebanon after the Marine Barracks bombing is what probably gave Bin Laden the idea that if he hit us hard with a terrorist attack, we might leave the Middle East.

Why do they keep making the same mistake? That was what Japan thought, too --- Hit them hard and destroy their Navy at Pearl Harbor and they'll leave us alone as too much trouble.

Interesting idea about Bin Laden, but I am always amazed and fascinated by the situation he was in: he could not get our attention. He bombed two embassies and holed a Navy ship, but no one paid any attention. I think Clinton threw some expensive Cruise missiles harmlessly into the desert at some point, but no one cared, least of all Bin Laden.

Bin Laden's problem is that Americans are not interested in other countries. If embassies and even our ships are exploded in foreign parts, we just think, well, that's what these worthless foreigners do; that's why our guys get hazard pay over there. And we pay no attention at all.

He had to bomb New York before he got our attention. My guess is he didn't enjoy it as much as he thought he would.

 

[zaangalewa]

For over 40 years sanctions had no effect on Cuba

But effects on the foundation of a socialistic democratic republic USA under your famous leader Trump II the curly.

 

[martybegan]

Why do they keep making the same mistake? That was what Japan thought, too --- Hit them hard and destroy their Navy at Pearl Harbor and they'll leave us alone as too much trouble.

Interesting idea about Bin Laden, but I am always amazed and fascinated by the situation he was in: he could not get our attention. He bombed two embassies and holed a Navy ship, but no one paid any attention. I think Clinton threw some expensive Cruise missiles harmlessly into the desert at some point, but no one cared, least of all Bin Laden.

Bin Laden's problem is that Americans are not interested in other countries. If embassies and even our ships are exploded in foreign parts, we just think, well, that's what these worthless foreigners do; that's why our guys get hazard pay over there. And we pay no attention at all.

He had to bomb New York before he got our attention. My guess is he didn't enjoy it as much as he thought he would.

No one goes into a conflict thinking they are going to lose.

Remember what Bin Laden's goal was, get US out of Saudi, depose the House of Saud, take over and rule Mecca to bring on the 2nd coming of the Caliphate.