Hitler, Fascism and the right wing

[2aguy]

More on hitlers socialism and leftism...


Why did hitler kill other socialists....because lefties hate competition...

We do however need to keep in mind that there is no such thing as PURE Leftism. Leftists are notoriously fractious, sectarian and multi-branched. And even the Fascist branch of Leftism was far from united. The modern-day Left always talk as if Italy's Mussolini and Hitler were two peas in a pod but that is far from the truth. Mussolini got pretty unprintable about Hitler at times and did NOT support Hitler's genocide against the Jews (Steinberg, 1990; Herzer, 1989). As it sayshere:

"Just as none of the victorious powers went to war with Germany to save the Jews neither did Mussolini go to war with them to exterminate the Jews. Indeed, once the Holocaust was under way he and his fascists refused to deport Jews to the Nazi death camps thus saving thousands of Jewish lives - far more than Oskar Schindler.""Far more than Oskar Schindler"!. And as late as 1938, Mussolini even asked the Pope toexcommunicate Hitler!. Leftists are very good at "fraternal" rivalry.So unity is not of the Left in any of its forms.

Where did the term "fascism" come from and how did it get popular in intellectual circles...

They only ever have SOME things in common -- such as claiming to represent "the worker" and seeking a State that controls as much of people's lives as it feasibly can.Tom Wolfe's essay on American intellectualsalso summarizes the origins of Fascism and Nazism rather well. Here is one excerpt from it:"Fascism" was, in fact, a Marxist coinage. Marxists borrowed the name of Mussolini's Italian party, the Fascisti, and applied it to Hitler's Nazis, adroitly papering over the fact that the Nazis, like Marxism's standard-bearers, the Soviet Communists, were revolutionary socialists.

In fact, "Nazi" was (most annoyingly) shorthand for the National Socialist German Workers' Party. European Marxists successfully put over the idea that Nazism was the brutal, decadent last gasp of "capitalism."Other sources on the basic facts about Hitler that history tells us are Roberts (1938), Heiden (1939), Shirer (1964), Bullock (1964), Taylor (1963), Hagan (1966), Feuchtwanger (1995).

The above are however secondary sources and, as every historian will tell you, there is nothing like going back to the original -- which is why much original text is quoted above. For further reading in the original sources, the first stop is of courseMein Kampf. It seems cutomary to portrayMein Kampfas the ravings of a madman but it is far from that. It is the attempt of an intelligent mind to comprehend the world about it and makes its points in such a personal and passionate way that it might well persuade many people today but for a knowledge of where it led. The best collection of original Nazi documents on the web is however probablyhere. Perhaps deserving of particular mention among the documents available there is a widely circulated pamphlet by Goebbelshere. One excerpt from it:

 

[Saigon]

BillC -

Let's try to kep this at an adult level. No one cares about what some blogger claims.

I'll ask again - why would a man you claim was a socialist ban socialism and send socialists to prison?

Also - the question everyone has been dodging since page one -

If Hitler was left-wing, where on the scale do you put right-wing tyrants like Franco, Antonescu or Stroessner?

All were fascist, all clearly openly, obviously right wing.

So are some fascists left and some right? How does that work?

Try and answer in your own words, and without C&Ping garbage from blogs, eh?

 

[Saigon]

Why did hitler kill other socialists....because lefties hate competition...

Right.

So the Democrats have banned liberalism and sent all the liberals to prison, have they?

Jesus wept.....and this is the same person who was attacking education a page or two back?

Come on,man - even you KNOW this is horseshit. Why not come up with something that makes a lick of sense?

 

[2aguy]

More on the distortions of the historians trying to hide hitlers leftism and socialism...

At this stage I think I need to consider some objections to the account of Hitler that I have given so far:

Leftist denials of Hitler's Leftism: Kangas


Modern day Leftists of course hate it when you point out to them that Hitler was one of them. They deny it furiously -- even though in Hitler's own day both the orthodox Leftists who represented the German labor unions (the SPD) and the Communists (KPD) voted WITH the Nazis in the Reichstag(German Parliament) on various important occasions.

As part of that denial, an essay by Steve Kangas is much reproduced on the internet. Entering the search phrase "Hitler was a Leftist" will bring up multiple copies of it. Kangas however reveals where he is coming from in his very first sentence: "Many conservatives accuse Hitler of being a leftist, on the grounds that his party was named "National Socialist." But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production". It does? Only to Marxists. So Kangas is saying only that Hitler was less Leftist than the Communists -- and that would not be hard. Surely a "democratic" Leftist should see that as faintly to Hitler's credit, in fact.

Leonard Peikoff makes clear the triviality of the difference:


Some other points made by Kangas are highly misleading. He says for instance that Hitler favoured "competition over co-operation". Hitler in fact rejected Marxist notions of class struggle and had as his great slogan: "Ein Reich, ein Volk, ein Fuehrer" (One State, one people, one leader). He ultimately wanted Germans to be a single, unified, co-operating whole under him, with all notions of social class or other divisions forgotten. Other claims made by Kangas are simply laughable: He says that Hitler cannot have been a Leftist because he favoured: "politics and militarism over pacifism, dictatorship over democracy". Phew! So Stalin was not political, not a militarist and not a dictator? Enough said.

 

[2aguy]

So the Democrats have banned liberalism and sent all the liberals to prison, have they?

Wow...you are dense....we are talking about the most extreme leftists...the ones who really, really believe in their system...to the point where they will commit mass murder to achieve it....fortunately, not all lefty socialists are also psychopaths....but all the biggest mass murderers have been lefty socialists....you twit....

 

[2aguy]

And another paper on how wrong the lefties here are....just learn to embrace your lefty mass murderers....it might make you guys see the error of your big government love....

Socialism NAZI Hitler was a socialist

Contrary to the Marxists, the Nazis did not advocate public ownership of the means of production. They did demand that the government oversee and run the nation's economy. The issue of legal ownership, they explained, is secondary; what counts is the issue of CONTROL. Private citizens, therefore, may continue to hold titles to property -- so long as the state reserves to itself the unqualified right to regulate the use of their property.

If "ownership" means the right to determine the use and disposal of material goods, then Nazism endowed the state with every real prerogative of ownership. What the individual retained was merely a formal deed, a content-less deed, which conferred no rights on its holder. Under communism, there is collective ownership of property DEJURE. Under Nazism, there is the same collective ownership DE FACTO.

During the Hitler years -- in order to finance the party's programs, including the war expenditures -- every social group in Germany was mercilessly exploited and drained. White-collar salaries and the earnings of small businessmen were deliberately held down by government controls, freezes, taxes. Big business was bled by taxes and "special contributions" of every kind, and strangled by the bureaucracy.

At the same time the income of the farmers was held down, and there was a desperate flight to the cities -- where the middle class, especially the small tradesmen, were soon in desperate straits, and where the workers were forced to labor at low wages for increasingly longer hours (up to 60 or more per week).

But the Nazis defended their policies, and the country did not rebel; it accepted the Nazi argument. Selfish individuals may be unhappy, the Nazis said, but what we have established in Germany is the ideal system, SOCIALISM. In its Nazi usage this term is not restricted to a theory of economics; it is to be understood in a fundamental sense. "Socialism" for the Nazis denotes the principle of collectivism as such and its corollary, statism -- in every field of human action, including but not limited to economics.

"To be a socialist", says Goebbels, "is to submit the I to the thou; socialism is sacrificing the individual to the whole."

By this definition, the Nazis practiced what they preached. They practiced it at home and then abroad. No one can claim that they did not sacrifice enough individuals.

You twit....

 

[Wry Catcher]

They called themselves a Republic, so they must be one!

You're such a dishonest fucking hack

Yes, we know. The Nazi's were "right-wing" because they espoused individual liberty, personal freedom and limited government

Fucking hack

RW totalitarianism means capitalist PERIOD, as opposed to communism, shytteheads. The company had a portfolio of 1,800 units valued at just over $100 million in April 2013. Currently, the portfolio is nearly 5,000 units valued at $200 million. Within two months, Roco will have about 7,000 units, said David Colman. The additional 2,000 units are in Michigan, Mississippi and Texas. t can be anything BUT totalitarian, brainwashed functional moron. Including social democracy or SOCIALISM. SEE WESTERN EUROPE, OZ, ETC.

Moron, idiot, duppe, sucka, duh.

Right wing IS personal freedom and limited government. You lefties, Obama, Hitler, FDR, Mao and Stalin are the totalitarians

Really? The RW is all about personal freedom? First, define the RW in America today (do you admit you're a member?) then explain the RW's position on voting, abortion, marriage, MJ legalization, public education, the environment, collective bargaining and unions, green and renewable energy and government on all levels, local, special districts, state and federal.

RW are Conservatives, Libertarians and the Tea Party and I'm a proud member

Voting -- Photo ID, ideally have some computer driven, LifeLock like system, One person, one vote, only allowable absentee ballots are US military personnel serving overseas

Abortion - Not a fan, but its a state rights issue

Marriage -- Not the governments business, eliminate tax benefits for marriage

MJ Legalization -- decriminalize all drugs.

Public education -- eliminate federal dept of Public education, voucherize and privatize the entire system

the environment -- private property rights are the best way to maintain a clean environment

collective bargaining and unions -- Unions outlives their usefulness ages ago

green and renewable energy -- let the market figure out energy. In any event, hyrdocarbons are apparently renewable

government on all levels -- as little as possible.

I take it back. You're as dumb as the other three.

 

[Saigon]

btw, Bill, as you obviously know - every major history book written in the past 60 years describes Hitler as being right wing.

As I posted yesterday, most right-wing German historians also describe Hitler as being right wing, as do the books written by Nazis like Albert Speer and Tradul Junge.

Where did they get it wrong, do you think?

What do you know that the entire 60 years of history, including the people involved, do not?

 

[Saigon]

BillC -

Please stop dodging the questions.

And please stop spamming the thread with shit from blogs.

This thread is about history - not about what some high schooldrop posts on iloveteaparty.com

I have to say - I am amazed how willing you are to swallow propaganda from a blog - while absolutely refusing to read real history books. What a perfect communist serf you would have made.

 

[2aguy]

What do you know that the entire 60 years of history, including the people involved, do not?

It's not what I know but what Hayek and the others knew....your nazi history writers....they get it wrong because they lost the war....and wanted to get on the winning side, so they supported the official story of the international socialists....you twit....not a lot of money preaching national socialism in a world that rightly saw them as mass murderers while the mass murder of the international socialists still goes unrecognized....

Hmmmm....I believe Hayek won the Nobel prize in economics...twit....hardly a high school drop out....

 

[Saigon]

It's not what I know but what Hayek and the others knew....your nazi history writers....they get it wrong because they lost the war....and wanted to get on the winning side, so they supported the official story of the international socialists....you twit....

Hmmmm....I believe Hayek won the Nobel prize in economics...twit....hardly a high school drop out....

Ah, I see - so actually the last 60+ years of recorded history is wrong, and only you are right.

All of the history, as recorded by German, American, British and Polish historians for the past two generations is out the window. I'm sure there is a good reason why British historians lied as well, is there? Perhaps they were all pinkos?

Meanwhile, the blog freedomforme.com is in. It's the only real source that we can trust.

Outstanding analysis.

Is there some kind of competition for Dumbest Post of the Year going on?

 

[2aguy]

Hmmm...my sources...Ph.Ds in economics and philosophy....hardly high school drop outs...your sources....former nazis looking to get good with the winners....yeah...your sources are golden....

Hmmm...PhDs...Hayek, Von Mises, Sowell, Peikoff....not exactly bloggers you twit...considering Hayek and Von Mises had to flee from the nazis as they rose to power and actually studied the field that encompasses the economic system of socialism....you twit...

 

[2aguy]

Ah, I see - so actually the last 60+ years of recorded history is wrong, and only you are right.

Sorry, the lie that hitler was a right winger is far from my theory or opinion....and sadly for you guys....the truth is getting out and that really irritates you....

 

[Saigon]

Hmmm...my sources...Ph.Ds in economics and philosophy....hardly high school drop outs...your sources....former nazis looking to get good with the winners....yeah...your sources are golden....

Yes, they are.

I have posted material here from Nazi party members like Albert Speer, from the best dozen books written on the topic by people like Kershaw, Arendt, Overy, Browning and Montefiore, and material from people like Martien Heidegger.

This is 60 years of recorded history, produced by the best historians and witnesses we have.

Meanwhile, you have blog posts.

Let's hope we get some moe serious dscussion soon.

 

[Impenitent]

Visceral Poetry

Republicans and Nazis we should never compare
To do so would be outrageous and unfair!
But there's a question that continually keeps me awake
Would old Nazis good Republicans make?

Republicans could never be Nazis, for goodness sake!
But could Nazis, in the Grand Old Party, ever partake?
Could the founding fathers of the Thousand Year Reich
Adapt to the party of a Thousand Points of Light?

Given some thought, it's not so unfeasible
Even General Eisenhower thought it conceivable
When he found Wernher Von Braun hiding in the thistles
Only to make him father of NASA and our ballistic missiles

Given that example, why couldn't more rehabilitate their brand?
This time, be good soldiers for the Republican high command
Wouldn't Rommel, a Panzer Commander of Field Marshal rank
Be equally comfortable running a right wing think tank?

Or Joseph Goebbels, charged to propagandize and flummox
Could become a talking head with his own show on Fox
While Eichmann and his concentration camp guards
Would be poll watchers, checking our registration cards

And those entitlement programs that never really worked
Our leaders bold proposals they've flip flopped and shirked
Would Nazis be like these windsocks and spin it?
Or would they throw grandma off the cliff? ...In a Wehrmacht minute!

 

[Saigon]

Ah, I see - so actually the last 60+ years of recorded history is wrong, and only you are right.

Sorry, the lie that hitler was a right winger is far from my theory or opinion....and sadly for you guys....the truth is getting out and that really irritates you....

The truth has been out for 60 years, dude.

No one is disputing it, even now.

Pick up any book, any dictionary, any history, and the facts are there.

 

[2aguy]

No one is disputing it, even now.

Yeah...106 pages from people reading people who dispute it....you need to think about things a little more....

Pick up any book, any dictionary, any history, and the facts are there.

Written by lefties....yeah....they don't have a bias.....

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[2aguy]

Visceral Poetry

Republicans and Nazis we should never compare
To do so would be outrageous and unfair!
But there's a question that continually keeps me awake
Would old Nazis good Republicans make?

Republicans could never be Nazis, for goodness sake!
But could Nazis, in the Grand Old Party, ever partake?
Could the founding fathers of the Thousand Year Reich
Adapt to the party of a Thousand Points of Light?

Given some thought, it's not so unfeasible
Even General Eisenhower thought it conceivable
When he found Wernher Von Braun hiding in the thistles
Only to make him father of NASA and our ballistic missiles

Given that example, why couldn't more rehabilitate their brand?
This time, be good soldiers for the Republican high command
Wouldn't Rommel, a Panzer Commander of Field Marshal rank
Be equally comfortable running a right wing think tank?

Or Joseph Goebbels, charged to propagandize and flummox
Could become a talking head with his own show on Fox
While Eichmann and his concentration camp guards
Would be pole watchers, checking our registration cards

And those entitlement programs that never really worked
Our leaders bold proposals they've flip flopped and shirked
Would Nazis be like these windsocks and spin it?
Or would they throw grandma off the cliff? ...In a Wehrmacht minute!

Yes...you must have graduated top of your class at the government school controlled by the education wing of the democrat party...

Which part of the Constitution of the United States or the Bill of Rights even comes close to supporting any idea that the nazis would have supported....you sir are another twit....

Conservatives, libertarians, Tea party members and regular Republicans support limited government, individual rights, and freedoms, equality among people, free market capitalism....and yet you think those are things nazis would embrace....

You need to start your education over...I would say the 1st grade....but you need more work than that....

 

[2aguy]

Someone else who is telling the truth....

Leftists become incandescent when reminded of the socialist roots of Nazism 8211 Telegraph

Goebbels never doubted that he was a socialist. He understood Nazism to be a better and more plausible form of socialism than that propagated by Lenin. Instead of spreading itself across different nations, it would operate within the unit of the Volk.

So total is the cultural victory of the modern Left that the merely to recount this fact is jarring. But few at the time would have found it especially contentious. As George Watson put it in The Lost Literature of Socialism:

It is now clear beyond all reasonable doubt that Hitler and his associates believed they were socialists, and that others, including democratic socialists, thought so too.

Blogs

 

[2aguy]

This is for you Saigon...

A Little Secret About the Nazis They were left-wing socialists like the modern left of today

But the history of the past century has been grossly distorted by the predominantly left-wing media and academic elite. The Nazis have been universally condemned -- as they obviously should be -- but they have also been repositioned clear across the political spectrum and propped up as false representatives of the far right -- even though Hitler railed frantically against capitalism in his infamous demagogic speeches.

At the same time, heinous crimes of larger magnitude by communist regimes have been ignored or downplayed, and the general public is largely unaware of them. Hence, communism is still widely regarded as a fundamentally good idea that has just not yet been properly ``implemented.'' Santayana said, ``Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.'' God help us if we forget the horrors of communism and get the historical lessons of Nazism backwards.