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We do know by comparing FBI and CDC data that between 1300 and 1700 criminals are killed each year by individuals acting in self defense.
While I do not catch every instance of a fatality resulting from a Defensive Gun Use, the reports I do get average 3.27 fatalities a day, again generally confirming the data from official sources.
Forbes article on Cato institute study on defensive gun uses...they culled through reports to get their number...
Disarming the Myths Promoted By the Gun Control Lobby - Forbes
A widely-known study conducted by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz in the 1990s found that there were somewhere between 830,000 and 2.45 million U.S. defensive gun uses annually.
A National Crime Victimization Study (NCVS) which asked victims if they had used a gun in self-defense found that about 108,000 each year had done so. A big problem with the NCVS line of survey reasoning, however, is that it only includes those uses where a citizen kills a criminal, not when one is only wounded, is held by the intended victim until police arrive, or when brandishing a gun caused a criminal to flee.
For these reasons, the Cato researchers investigated published news reports which much more often reveal how Americans use guns in self-defense. The data set is derived from a collection of nearly 5,000 randomly selected incidents published between October 2003 and November 2011. Still, the authors also recognize limitations with this approach, since many defensive incidents are never reported by victims, or when they are, never get published. In fact, the overwhelming majority of the successful self-defense outcomes are those where the defendants’ guns are presented but never fired.
Most of the actual self-defense shootings in the Cato study didn’t involve concealed carry licenses, but more typically had to do with responses to residential invasions. Of these, 488 involved home burglaries. In addition, there were 1,227 incidents where intruders were induced to flee the scene by armed inhabitants, circumstances that might otherwise have resulted in injurious assaults including rapes and murders.
There were 285 news accounts indicating that the defender had a concealed weapon license, which in the majority of these incidents took place outside a home or place of business. Pizza delivery drivers were common robbery targets.
Disarming the Myths Promoted By the Gun Control Lobby - Forbes
Again there are only 230 criminals killed in defense each year. If they only used deaths the number would be 230. The number is 100,000. So the claim they use only deaths is false.
Those reports come from interviews with private citizens....that is why the NCVS is off, the FBI collects actual data.....
You are still not making sense. Only 230 criminals killed each year in defense.
Okay....let's start from the beginning...where did the 230 come from....? That will help....
This table shows police killings...
FBI mdash Expanded Homicide Data Table 14
And by civilians....
FBI mdash Expanded Homicide Data Table 15
"The FBI's Uniform Crime Reports also significantly overstate murders and understate defensive gun uses. If the police investigat a homicide and ask the district attorney to charge someone with murder or manslaughter, that is reported as a murder to the Uniform Crime Reports program. But district attorney's will often investigate a case in the weeks afterward, find evidence that the killing was justifiable or excusable homicide, and drop the case entirely.
Further, some of the charges, are found to be justifiable or excusable homocide by judges and juries during a trial. this is very often the case in spousal abuse situations where a woman defends herself or her children from an estranged husband.9 A killing initially charged as a murder or negligent homicide that is later reclassified as a justifiable or excusable homicide, will not be moved in the Uniform Crime Reports data from the homicide column to the justifiable homicide column."
"clearly, the FBI justifiable homicide data is not particularly meaningful for understanding defensive gun uses that result in death-and is useless for understanding the vastly larger number of defensive gun uses that do not result in death."
At one time, it was widely believed that a fairly large percentage of defensive gun uses
might be criminals defending themselves from other criminals: marijuana growers protecting their crops, gang members de- fending themselves from other gang mem- bers, a falling out between members of a criminal enterprise. That was only specula- tion. For a long time, there was not much in the way of actual data.
Since the survey data has severe limita- tions with respect to defensive gun uses, collecting accounts of self-defense as they are reported in news outlets may be a better method of assessing the frequency and na- ture of self-defense with firearms. The data set supporting this paper is derived from a collection of news stories published between October 2003 and November 2011.12
There is a selection bias problem with the method of gathering news stories. Many defensive gun uses never make the news. Sometimes that is because the person us- ing a gun in self-defense saw no need to call the police—he or she scared off the bad guy. In some cases, the victim might not want to explain to the police that he has a gun, perhaps because he is a felon, or perhaps because he lives in a jurisdiction with very restrictive gun control laws. Sometimes the police do get called, but the officers do not find the circumstances sufficiently impor- tant to issue a press release. After all, “Man Scares away Burglar, No Shots Fired” is not particularly newsworthy, unless you live in a very small town.
In spite of the selection bias problem, there is one enormous advantage to this model of gathering data: it provides a rich set of information about motives, circum- stances, victims, and criminals. It also pro- vides a sufficiently large database (almost 5,000 incidents), randomly selected, so that some conclusions about the nature of armed self-defense in America can be drawn. Best of all, whatever the deficiencies of news reporting, the model is not completely de- pendent on the honesty or accuracy of the respondent—unlike some of the questions raised with respect to defensive gun use sur- veys.
In a few instances, we have includ- ed cases where the initial news reports were clearly of legitimate defensive gun uses, but where law enforcement or a prosecutor chose to charge a gun owner.
Those are relatively rare; when there was any doubt as to whether a use of a gun might be criminal, it was not included in our list of news accounts until such time as there was confirmation that the defensive gun use was deemed lawful. In only a handful of cases did later investiga- tion turn an initial defensive gun use into a criminalcharge.Themostcommonscenario is that law enforcement officers chose not to prosecute based on the evidence at the scene and testimony of witnesses, but referred the case to a grand jury for review.
How Many Defensive Gun Uses by Drug Dealers?
A commonly held view among skeptics of defensive gun uses is that many—perhaps most—involve criminals defending them- selves from other criminals, such as drug dealers who are stealing from rival dealers. Without question, there are stories that fit that description—or where you can read be- tween the lines and get that impression. In February 2008 Washington residents Mar- cus Bradford, Khiry Jackson, and Lawrence Adams went to steal drugs and money from Luis Acevedo. Acevedo shot Bradford to death. While Acevedo was still facing charg- es, it was not for shooting Bradford—but for the drugs that Bradford and his associates were there to steal.59
Still, such stories seem to be sufficiently rare that the data set does not have a separate category for drug dealers defending them- selves. A search for the string “drug dealer” in the database found only nine news stories. It is entirely possible that police responding to shootings involving known drug dealers are less inclined to give such individuals the benefit of the doubt on questionable shoot- ings—but still, the overwhelming majority of defensive gun use stories involve ordinary and decent people defending themselves against criminals.
Here you go Brain....this is the White Paper "Tough Targets" and you don't have to pay for it or get a kindle....
http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/WP-Tough-Targets.pdf
The Data Set
At one time, it was widely believed that a fairly large percentage of defensive gun uses
might be criminals defending themselves from other criminals: marijuana growers protecting their crops, gang members de- fending themselves from other gang mem- bers, a falling out between members of a criminal enterprise. That was only specula- tion. For a long time, there was not much in the way of actual data.
Since the survey data has severe limita- tions with respect to defensive gun uses, collecting accounts of self-defense as they are reported in news outlets may be a better method of assessing the frequency and na- ture of self-defense with firearms. The data set supporting this paper is derived from a collection of news stories published between October 2003 and November 2011.12
There is a selection bias problem with the method of gathering news stories. Many defensive gun uses never make the news. Sometimes that is because the person us- ing a gun in self-defense saw no need to call the police—he or she scared off the bad guy. In some cases, the victim might not want to explain to the police that he has a gun, perhaps because he is a felon, or perhaps because he lives in a jurisdiction with very restrictive gun control laws. Sometimes the police do get called, but the officers do not find the circumstances sufficiently impor- tant to issue a press release. After all, “Man Scares away Burglar, No Shots Fired” is not particularly newsworthy, unless you live in a very small town.
In spite of the selection bias problem, there is one enormous advantage to this model of gathering data: it provides a rich set of information about motives, circum- stances, victims, and criminals. It also pro- vides a sufficiently large database (almost 5,000 incidents), randomly selected, so that some conclusions about the nature of armed self-defense in America can be drawn. Best of all, whatever the deficiencies of news reporting, the model is not completely de- pendent on the honesty or accuracy of the respondent—unlike some of the questions raised with respect to defensive gun use sur- veys.
As to wether they included criminals using guns defensively........
In a few instances, we have includ- ed cases where the initial news reports were clearly of legitimate defensive gun uses, but where law enforcement or a prosecutor chose to charge a gun owner.
Those are relatively rare; when there was any doubt as to whether a use of a gun might be criminal, it was not included in our list of news accounts until such time as there was confirmation that the defensive gun use was deemed lawful. In only a handful of cases did later investiga- tion turn an initial defensive gun use into a criminalcharge.Themostcommonscenario is that law enforcement officers chose not to prosecute based on the evidence at the scene and testimony of witnesses, but referred the case to a grand jury for review.
and as to drug dealers.....
How Many Defensive Gun Uses by Drug Dealers?
A commonly held view among skeptics of defensive gun uses is that many—perhaps most—involve criminals defending them- selves from other criminals, such as drug dealers who are stealing from rival dealers. Without question, there are stories that fit that description—or where you can read be- tween the lines and get that impression. In February 2008 Washington residents Mar- cus Bradford, Khiry Jackson, and Lawrence Adams went to steal drugs and money from Luis Acevedo. Acevedo shot Bradford to death. While Acevedo was still facing charg- es, it was not for shooting Bradford—but for the drugs that Bradford and his associates were there to steal.59
Still, such stories seem to be sufficiently rare that the data set does not have a separate category for drug dealers defending them- selves. A search for the string “drug dealer” in the database found only nine news stories. It is entirely possible that police responding to shootings involving known drug dealers are less inclined to give such individuals the benefit of the doubt on questionable shoot- ings—but still, the overwhelming majority of defensive gun use stories involve ordinary and decent people defending themselves against criminals.
And well Kleck makes it clear the majority of them involve criminal activity by the defender.
We know there are only 230 or so criminals killed in defense each year
Here you go Brain....this is the White Paper "Tough Targets" and you don't have to pay for it or get a kindle....
http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/WP-Tough-Targets.pdf
The Data Set
At one time, it was widely believed that a fairly large percentage of defensive gun uses
might be criminals defending themselves from other criminals: marijuana growers protecting their crops, gang members de- fending themselves from other gang mem- bers, a falling out between members of a criminal enterprise. That was only specula- tion. For a long time, there was not much in the way of actual data.
Since the survey data has severe limita- tions with respect to defensive gun uses, collecting accounts of self-defense as they are reported in news outlets may be a better method of assessing the frequency and na- ture of self-defense with firearms. The data set supporting this paper is derived from a collection of news stories published between October 2003 and November 2011.12
There is a selection bias problem with the method of gathering news stories. Many defensive gun uses never make the news. Sometimes that is because the person us- ing a gun in self-defense saw no need to call the police—he or she scared off the bad guy. In some cases, the victim might not want to explain to the police that he has a gun, perhaps because he is a felon, or perhaps because he lives in a jurisdiction with very restrictive gun control laws. Sometimes the police do get called, but the officers do not find the circumstances sufficiently impor- tant to issue a press release. After all, “Man Scares away Burglar, No Shots Fired” is not particularly newsworthy, unless you live in a very small town.
In spite of the selection bias problem, there is one enormous advantage to this model of gathering data: it provides a rich set of information about motives, circum- stances, victims, and criminals. It also pro- vides a sufficiently large database (almost 5,000 incidents), randomly selected, so that some conclusions about the nature of armed self-defense in America can be drawn. Best of all, whatever the deficiencies of news reporting, the model is not completely de- pendent on the honesty or accuracy of the respondent—unlike some of the questions raised with respect to defensive gun use sur- veys.
As to wether they included criminals using guns defensively........
In a few instances, we have includ- ed cases where the initial news reports were clearly of legitimate defensive gun uses, but where law enforcement or a prosecutor chose to charge a gun owner.
Those are relatively rare; when there was any doubt as to whether a use of a gun might be criminal, it was not included in our list of news accounts until such time as there was confirmation that the defensive gun use was deemed lawful. In only a handful of cases did later investiga- tion turn an initial defensive gun use into a criminalcharge.Themostcommonscenario is that law enforcement officers chose not to prosecute based on the evidence at the scene and testimony of witnesses, but referred the case to a grand jury for review.
and as to drug dealers.....
How Many Defensive Gun Uses by Drug Dealers?
A commonly held view among skeptics of defensive gun uses is that many—perhaps most—involve criminals defending them- selves from other criminals, such as drug dealers who are stealing from rival dealers. Without question, there are stories that fit that description—or where you can read be- tween the lines and get that impression. In February 2008 Washington residents Mar- cus Bradford, Khiry Jackson, and Lawrence Adams went to steal drugs and money from Luis Acevedo. Acevedo shot Bradford to death. While Acevedo was still facing charg- es, it was not for shooting Bradford—but for the drugs that Bradford and his associates were there to steal.59
Still, such stories seem to be sufficiently rare that the data set does not have a separate category for drug dealers defending them- selves. A search for the string “drug dealer” in the database found only nine news stories. It is entirely possible that police responding to shootings involving known drug dealers are less inclined to give such individuals the benefit of the doubt on questionable shoot- ings—but still, the overwhelming majority of defensive gun use stories involve ordinary and decent people defending themselves against criminals.
So I read all this and it is incredibly flawed right from the very start. It is so flawed I had to look at just what this cato institute is:
The Cato Institute is a public policy research organization — a think tank – dedicated to the principles of individual liberty, limited government, free markets and peace.
Yes it is right wing.
So this study is flawed from the very start. The least likely people to report a defense would be criminals. So that makes criminal defenses also the least likely to make the newspaper. The fact they found some with criminal activity actually proves there are a lot of them. And well Kleck makes it clear the majority of them involve criminal activity by the defender. The drug dealer defending his stash isn't going to report it to the police and hence never make the news. Sorry this study is ridiculously stupid.
And well Kleck makes it clear the majority of them involve criminal activity by the defender.
Brain.....that is a lie....Kleck said no such thing.....that is beneath you.....
We know there are only 230 or so criminals killed in defense each year
Not true either, as that paper showed....the prosecutors and police and the FBI do not coordinate homicides to the degree of accuracy where you can make that statement...also, as has been stated before....law abiding citizens do not shoot people that they don't need to shoot.....and criminals don't press the attack and more often than not run away rather than get shot......
and again.....the 19 studies done over a 40 year period, by different researchers both private and government when averaged together show that there are 1.6 million times a gun is used to stop a violent attack and save a life......
Here you go Brain....this is the White Paper "Tough Targets" and you don't have to pay for it or get a kindle....
http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/WP-Tough-Targets.pdf
The Data Set
At one time, it was widely believed that a fairly large percentage of defensive gun uses
might be criminals defending themselves from other criminals: marijuana growers protecting their crops, gang members de- fending themselves from other gang mem- bers, a falling out between members of a criminal enterprise. That was only specula- tion. For a long time, there was not much in the way of actual data.
Since the survey data has severe limita- tions with respect to defensive gun uses, collecting accounts of self-defense as they are reported in news outlets may be a better method of assessing the frequency and na- ture of self-defense with firearms. The data set supporting this paper is derived from a collection of news stories published between October 2003 and November 2011.12
There is a selection bias problem with the method of gathering news stories. Many defensive gun uses never make the news. Sometimes that is because the person us- ing a gun in self-defense saw no need to call the police—he or she scared off the bad guy. In some cases, the victim might not want to explain to the police that he has a gun, perhaps because he is a felon, or perhaps because he lives in a jurisdiction with very restrictive gun control laws. Sometimes the police do get called, but the officers do not find the circumstances sufficiently impor- tant to issue a press release. After all, “Man Scares away Burglar, No Shots Fired” is not particularly newsworthy, unless you live in a very small town.
In spite of the selection bias problem, there is one enormous advantage to this model of gathering data: it provides a rich set of information about motives, circum- stances, victims, and criminals. It also pro- vides a sufficiently large database (almost 5,000 incidents), randomly selected, so that some conclusions about the nature of armed self-defense in America can be drawn. Best of all, whatever the deficiencies of news reporting, the model is not completely de- pendent on the honesty or accuracy of the respondent—unlike some of the questions raised with respect to defensive gun use sur- veys.
As to wether they included criminals using guns defensively........
In a few instances, we have includ- ed cases where the initial news reports were clearly of legitimate defensive gun uses, but where law enforcement or a prosecutor chose to charge a gun owner.
Those are relatively rare; when there was any doubt as to whether a use of a gun might be criminal, it was not included in our list of news accounts until such time as there was confirmation that the defensive gun use was deemed lawful. In only a handful of cases did later investiga- tion turn an initial defensive gun use into a criminalcharge.Themostcommonscenario is that law enforcement officers chose not to prosecute based on the evidence at the scene and testimony of witnesses, but referred the case to a grand jury for review.
and as to drug dealers.....
How Many Defensive Gun Uses by Drug Dealers?
A commonly held view among skeptics of defensive gun uses is that many—perhaps most—involve criminals defending them- selves from other criminals, such as drug dealers who are stealing from rival dealers. Without question, there are stories that fit that description—or where you can read be- tween the lines and get that impression. In February 2008 Washington residents Mar- cus Bradford, Khiry Jackson, and Lawrence Adams went to steal drugs and money from Luis Acevedo. Acevedo shot Bradford to death. While Acevedo was still facing charg- es, it was not for shooting Bradford—but for the drugs that Bradford and his associates were there to steal.59
Still, such stories seem to be sufficiently rare that the data set does not have a separate category for drug dealers defending them- selves. A search for the string “drug dealer” in the database found only nine news stories. It is entirely possible that police responding to shootings involving known drug dealers are less inclined to give such individuals the benefit of the doubt on questionable shoot- ings—but still, the overwhelming majority of defensive gun use stories involve ordinary and decent people defending themselves against criminals.
So I read all this and it is incredibly flawed right from the very start. It is so flawed I had to look at just what this cato institute is:
The Cato Institute is a public policy research organization — a think tank – dedicated to the principles of individual liberty, limited government, free markets and peace.
Yes it is right wing.
So this study is flawed from the very start. The least likely people to report a defense would be criminals. So that makes criminal defenses also the least likely to make the newspaper. The fact they found some with criminal activity actually proves there are a lot of them. And well Kleck makes it clear the majority of them involve criminal activity by the defender. The drug dealer defending his stash isn't going to report it to the police and hence never make the news. Sorry this study is ridiculously stupid.
I didn't say it was perfect Brain.....I did tell you they did what the one you keep referring to from the cataloging of "The Armed Citizen " stories but instead of just over 100 they did 5000........just trying to show you that "The Armed Citizen" Study you keep citing is not an accurate way to do it either......
They do make valid points about trying to compute homicide rates, and it was interesting to see that criminals don't disarm victims......
Let`s see. Biff and Bubba get into an argument in a bar and pull their guns out. No one gets shot. Does that mean 2 guns were used in defense? I`d say no.
No, I am commenting on the belief that gun control laws work.....we on the pro 2nd amendment side have always pointed out, that if you ban guns....law abiding citizens will obey that law, and the criminals won't......so all you are doing is disarming law abiding people who won't kill other innocent people....
Canada, Australia, and France have shown this to be true....
You have convicted terrorists on French watch lists who were able to get military grade Russian rifles and a rocket propelled grenade, when they wanted them.....
Not one innocent, law abiding French citizen had a gun, that is 27 people during the attack on the magazine, and all the bystanders then and this shooting......so gun control has worked as we said it would....
Don't tell me that they have less gun murders because criminals can't get guns.....they have less gun murders because their criminals have decided not to do them.....it seems like the terrorists have just decided to start doing it....
Also....keep in mind another thread.....Puerto Rico....and island nation....has the strictest control in the United States.....and they have the highest gun murder rate in the world....
Gun control guarantees that good people will be helpless against armed criminals who work alone or in groups....
Let`s see. Biff and Bubba get into an argument in a bar and pull their guns out. No one gets shot. Does that mean 2 guns were used in defense? I`d say no.
Kleck would say so. And if it were two felon gang members it would be counted also.
