Hmmm...another police officer shot in France, by a guy with a rifle....in gun controlled France....

[Desperado]

Unfettered immigration from third world countries and strict gun control for their populace, what could possibly go wrong.

 

[Brain357]

Unfettered immigration from third world countries and strict gun control for their populace, what could possibly go wrong.

You say that like we don't have criminals doing stuff like that here regularly. We have plenty of guns but there are hostage situations all the time. This isn't a big deal compared to many of our mass shootings.

 

[2aguy]

And Kleck actually said this......

Guns and Self-Defense by Gary Kleck Ph.D.

The authors concluded that defensive uses of guns are about three to four times as common as criminal uses of guns. The National Self-Defense Survey confirmed the picture of frequent defensive gun use implied by the results of earlier, less sophisticated surveys.

Here is a good read:
What if some people lie to the NCVS and some to Kleck 8211 Deltoid
To determine where it lies we need to know the relative likelihoods of
false positives and false negatives. If they are equal (that is, the
percentage of non-(gun defenders) who claim to use a gun to Kleck is
the same as the percentage of gun-defenders who claim not to have used
one to the NCVS) we can solve some equations to find the true
estimate: Letting l be the fraction who lie, and d be the true
estimate we have:
d*l = d – 80,000 (The fraction of gun defenders who lie is the
discrepancy between the NCVS estimate and the true figure.)
(250M-d)*l = 2.5M – d (The fraction of non-(gun defenders) who lie is
the discrepancy between the Kleck estimate and the true figure.)
Solving for d:
d = 80,000 /(1 – (2.5M – 80,000)/250M)
= 81,000
Under this assumption, respondents to the NCVS and to Kleck are both
99% truthful.

The problem is that the NCVS is an interview with a government official, who has a badge and gets the name and address of the individual before they start the interview...so if there is any doubt about how they used their gun....they aren't going to tell the NCVS interviewer...

Also....the NCVS never directly asks if the individual used a gun for self defense.....that has to come out through other questions....Kleck directly asks the individual if they used a gun in the last year, and if they used a gun in the last five years....that is another reason the numbers are different....

And again...the NCVS does not count defensive gun uses that don't result in a death.....

Bill stop saying that. There are less than 300 defensive deaths each year!!! The NCVS study says there are about 108,000 defenses each year. So YES they are counting defensive uses that don't result in a death.

Sorry....the FBI data is not accurate for one......and again.....not everyone is a self defense situation with a gun kills or shoots the criminal. and of all the studies over 40 years the NCVS has the greatest flaws.......and is the only study to have a number that low.....

 

[M14 Shooter]

Unfettered immigration from third world countries and strict gun control for their populace, what could possibly go wrong.

-Some- people believe the state should have a monoploly on force; given that, why should anything else they do make sense?

 

[2aguy]

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....

Field...1976....3,052,717
DMIa 1978...2,141,512
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68
Kleck...2.5 million
Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544
DMIb...1978...1,098,409
Hart...1981...1.797,461
Mauser...1990...1,487,342
Gallup...1993...1,621,377
DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million
Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043
Gallup...1991...777,152
Tarrance... 1994... 764,036
Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..



NCVS (National Crime Victimization Survey)....108,000


Notice, the 3 different groupings of stats from the research listed so far.....not one of them approaches the NCVS number of 100,000.....yet you claim to know that is the correct number....

Notice how far off all the other studies the NCVS one is....

The Kleck survey as admitted by him is mostly involving criminal activity.

Brain....that is untrue....never said that.....

That statement is as true as the statement that all automobile drivers are criminals......

 

[2aguy]

Unfettered immigration from third world countries and strict gun control for their populace, what could possibly go wrong.

You say that like we don't have criminals doing stuff like that here regularly. We have plenty of guns but there are hostage situations all the time. This isn't a big deal compared to many of our mass shootings.

We do have criminals doing it regularly and we also have gun control....felons are not allowed to have guns....that is the gun control we all want, they can't own them, they can't carry them they can't buy them.....so we have very strict gun control.....you have to go through a background check if you are a law abiding ctiizen.....and criminals ignore that gun control law.......

And yet the felons still get those guns....

Just like in France, they have gun control too.....and one of the killers in France was a convicted terrorist, on a government watch list and he and his 2 buddies still got illegal, military grade, Russian rifles.....even with their gun control laws....and dittos for the guy in the Kosher Deli....again....against the law for him to have that weapon.....and he still got it.....

They have the strictest gun control laws in Puerto Rico....strictest in the United States, and it's territories.......and they have the highest gun murder rate in the world.....same for Mexico, Russia....

And even in Japan....if their criminals want guns, they can get them...

Dittos Australia.....their newly arrived immigrants can get illegal guns....even with their gun control laws...and the terrorist who killed people in the coffee shop had a gun......




and with over 310 million guns in the country we only have 8-9,000 gun murders a year, confined to small, multi block areas of inner cities....vs. 1.6 million times that guns are used to stop violent criminal attack and save lives........

 

[2aguy]

How many Americans died from gun-related violence yesterday? If you want to draw a comparison, you actually have to present something to be compared.

Indeed.

France:
19,000,000 guns
147 gun-relaled murders
99.99923% of guns in France are NOT used to commit murder

US
300,000,000 guns
8855 gun related murders
99.99705% of guns in the US are NOT used to commit murder

Difference: 0.00218%

What conclusion do you draw from this comparison?

That you should probably use number of gun owners rather than number of guns. Or compare population to number of gun related murders.

I would, if either standard were relevant.

Guns don't shoot themselves. You need to use the number of gun owners.

Comparing to population would show the relative number of gun related murders.

Felons cannot own guns in this country.....so you have to liimit your pool by that as well......

 

[Brain357]

And Kleck actually said this......

Guns and Self-Defense by Gary Kleck Ph.D.

The authors concluded that defensive uses of guns are about three to four times as common as criminal uses of guns. The National Self-Defense Survey confirmed the picture of frequent defensive gun use implied by the results of earlier, less sophisticated surveys.

Here is a good read:
What if some people lie to the NCVS and some to Kleck 8211 Deltoid
To determine where it lies we need to know the relative likelihoods of
false positives and false negatives. If they are equal (that is, the
percentage of non-(gun defenders) who claim to use a gun to Kleck is
the same as the percentage of gun-defenders who claim not to have used
one to the NCVS) we can solve some equations to find the true
estimate: Letting l be the fraction who lie, and d be the true
estimate we have:
d*l = d – 80,000 (The fraction of gun defenders who lie is the
discrepancy between the NCVS estimate and the true figure.)
(250M-d)*l = 2.5M – d (The fraction of non-(gun defenders) who lie is
the discrepancy between the Kleck estimate and the true figure.)
Solving for d:
d = 80,000 /(1 – (2.5M – 80,000)/250M)
= 81,000
Under this assumption, respondents to the NCVS and to Kleck are both
99% truthful.

The problem is that the NCVS is an interview with a government official, who has a badge and gets the name and address of the individual before they start the interview...so if there is any doubt about how they used their gun....they aren't going to tell the NCVS interviewer...

Also....the NCVS never directly asks if the individual used a gun for self defense.....that has to come out through other questions....Kleck directly asks the individual if they used a gun in the last year, and if they used a gun in the last five years....that is another reason the numbers are different....

And again...the NCVS does not count defensive gun uses that don't result in a death.....

Bill stop saying that. There are less than 300 defensive deaths each year!!! The NCVS study says there are about 108,000 defenses each year. So YES they are counting defensive uses that don't result in a death.

Sorry....the FBI data is not accurate for one......and again.....not everyone is a self defense situation with a gun kills or shoots the criminal. and of all the studies over 40 years the NCVS has the greatest flaws.......and is the only study to have a number that low.....

So you are saying there are 108,000 deaths a year? That is just silly. I have heard no reason to believe the FBI data is not accurate. You can't believe everything some crazy right wing group says.

 

[Brain357]

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....

Field...1976....3,052,717
DMIa 1978...2,141,512
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68
Kleck...2.5 million
Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544
DMIb...1978...1,098,409
Hart...1981...1.797,461
Mauser...1990...1,487,342
Gallup...1993...1,621,377
DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million
Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043
Gallup...1991...777,152
Tarrance... 1994... 764,036
Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..



NCVS (National Crime Victimization Survey)....108,000


Notice, the 3 different groupings of stats from the research listed so far.....not one of them approaches the NCVS number of 100,000.....yet you claim to know that is the correct number....

Notice how far off all the other studies the NCVS one is....

The Kleck survey as admitted by him is mostly involving criminal activity.

Brain....that is untrue....never said that.....

That statement is as true as the statement that all automobile drivers are criminals......

According to Kleck it is true:
Kleck:
"This is true because DGUs typically involve criminal behavior, such as unlawful gun possession, by the gun-using victim, who therefore is often unwilling to report the incident."

 

[Brain357]

Unfettered immigration from third world countries and strict gun control for their populace, what could possibly go wrong.

You say that like we don't have criminals doing stuff like that here regularly. We have plenty of guns but there are hostage situations all the time. This isn't a big deal compared to many of our mass shootings.

We do have criminals doing it regularly and we also have gun control....felons are not allowed to have guns....that is the gun control we all want, they can't own them, they can't carry them they can't buy them.....so we have very strict gun control.....you have to go through a background check if you are a law abiding ctiizen.....and criminals ignore that gun control law.......

And yet the felons still get those guns....

Just like in France, they have gun control too.....and one of the killers in France was a convicted terrorist, on a government watch list and he and his 2 buddies still got illegal, military grade, Russian rifles.....even with their gun control laws....and dittos for the guy in the Kosher Deli....again....against the law for him to have that weapon.....and he still got it.....

They have the strictest gun control laws in Puerto Rico....strictest in the United States, and it's territories.......and they have the highest gun murder rate in the world.....same for Mexico, Russia....

And even in Japan....if their criminals want guns, they can get them...

Dittos Australia.....their newly arrived immigrants can get illegal guns....even with their gun control laws...and the terrorist who killed people in the coffee shop had a gun......




and with over 310 million guns in the country we only have 8-9,000 gun murders a year, confined to small, multi block areas of inner cities....vs. 1.6 million times that guns are used to stop violent criminal attack and save lives........

You mean vs maybe 100k defenses. The 1.6 million is a made up number that has been debunked many times over. Nobody cares about criminals defending against criminals.

 

[2aguy]

Again.....Kleck isn't the only researcher......and he is a lefty.....he doesn't belong to the NRA and he began his research as an anti gunner......

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....

Field...1976....3,052,717
DMIa 1978...2,141,512
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68
Kleck...2.5 million
Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544
DMIb...1978...1,098,409
Hart...1981...1.797,461
Mauser...1990...1,487,342
Gallup...1993...1,621,377
DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( bill clinton's justice dept. study)
Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043
Gallup...1991...777,152
Tarrance... 1994... 764,036
Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..



NCVS (National Crime Victimization Survey)....108,000


Notice, the 3 different groupings of stats from the research listed so far.....not one of them approaches the NCVS number of 100,000.....yet you claim to know that is the correct number....

Notice how far off all the other studies the NCVS one is....


And when a homicide that is referred to a prosecutor is later dismissed by that prosecutor as a justifiable homicide, as the paper discusses, the FBI doesn't change it's category.....so no, the FBI data is not complete either....

 

[2aguy]

Take these studies and their numbers....average them....and you get 1,613,715 times a gun is used to stop a violent attack and save a life....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....

Field...1976....3,052,717
DMIa 1978...2,141,512
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68
Kleck...2.5 million
Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544
DMIb...1978...1,098,409
Hart...1981...1.797,461
Mauser...1990...1,487,342
Gallup...1993...1,621,377
DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( bill clinton's justice dept. study)
Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043
Gallup...1991...777,152
Tarrance... 1994... 764,036
Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..



NCVS (National Crime Victimization Survey)....108,000


And these aren't even all the studies available.....

 

[2aguy]

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....

Field...1976....3,052,717
DMIa 1978...2,141,512
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68
Kleck...2.5 million
Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544
DMIb...1978...1,098,409
Hart...1981...1.797,461
Mauser...1990...1,487,342
Gallup...1993...1,621,377
DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million
Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043
Gallup...1991...777,152
Tarrance... 1994... 764,036
Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..



NCVS (National Crime Victimization Survey)....108,000


Notice, the 3 different groupings of stats from the research listed so far.....not one of them approaches the NCVS number of 100,000.....yet you claim to know that is the correct number....

Notice how far off all the other studies the NCVS one is....

The Kleck survey as admitted by him is mostly involving criminal activity.

Brain....that is untrue....never said that.....

That statement is as true as the statement that all automobile drivers are criminals......

According to Kleck it is true:
Kleck:
"This is true because DGUs typically involve criminal behavior, such as unlawful gun possession, by the gun-using victim, who therefore is often unwilling to report the incident."

According to Kleck it is true:
Kleck:
"This is true because DGUs typically involve criminal behavior, such as unlawful gun possession, by the gun-using victim, who therefore is often unwilling to report the incident.

We are all criminals Brain....do you drive a car, then you too are a criminal in that sense as well.....

 

[Brain357]

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....

Field...1976....3,052,717
DMIa 1978...2,141,512
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68
Kleck...2.5 million
Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544
DMIb...1978...1,098,409
Hart...1981...1.797,461
Mauser...1990...1,487,342
Gallup...1993...1,621,377
DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million
Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043
Gallup...1991...777,152
Tarrance... 1994... 764,036
Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..



NCVS (National Crime Victimization Survey)....108,000


Notice, the 3 different groupings of stats from the research listed so far.....not one of them approaches the NCVS number of 100,000.....yet you claim to know that is the correct number....

Notice how far off all the other studies the NCVS one is....

The Kleck survey as admitted by him is mostly involving criminal activity.

Brain....that is untrue....never said that.....

That statement is as true as the statement that all automobile drivers are criminals......

According to Kleck it is true:
Kleck:
"This is true because DGUs typically involve criminal behavior, such as unlawful gun possession, by the gun-using victim, who therefore is often unwilling to report the incident."

According to Kleck it is true:
Kleck:
"This is true because DGUs typically involve criminal behavior, such as unlawful gun possession, by the gun-using victim, who therefore is often unwilling to report the incident.

We are all criminals Brain....do you drive a car, then you too are a criminal in that sense as well.....

Sorry but I'm never involved in criminal behavior. Maybe you are, but not me.

 

[Brain357]

Take these studies and their numbers....average them....and you get 1,613,715 times a gun is used to stop a violent attack and save a life....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....

Field...1976....3,052,717
DMIa 1978...2,141,512
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68
Kleck...2.5 million
Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544
DMIb...1978...1,098,409
Hart...1981...1.797,461
Mauser...1990...1,487,342
Gallup...1993...1,621,377
DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( bill clinton's justice dept. study)
Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043
Gallup...1991...777,152
Tarrance... 1994... 764,036
Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..



NCVS (National Crime Victimization Survey)....108,000


And these aren't even all the studies available.....

Criminals defending against criminals. You can't just average them and pretend that is the right answer. You are off by 1.5 million.

 

[Brain357]

Again.....Kleck isn't the only researcher......and he is a lefty.....he doesn't belong to the NRA and he began his research as an anti gunner......

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....

Field...1976....3,052,717
DMIa 1978...2,141,512
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68
Kleck...2.5 million
Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544
DMIb...1978...1,098,409
Hart...1981...1.797,461
Mauser...1990...1,487,342
Gallup...1993...1,621,377
DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( bill clinton's justice dept. study)
Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043
Gallup...1991...777,152
Tarrance... 1994... 764,036
Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..



NCVS (National Crime Victimization Survey)....108,000


Notice, the 3 different groupings of stats from the research listed so far.....not one of them approaches the NCVS number of 100,000.....yet you claim to know that is the correct number....

Notice how far off all the other studies the NCVS one is....


And when a homicide that is referred to a prosecutor is later dismissed by that prosecutor as a justifiable homicide, as the paper discusses, the FBI doesn't change it's category.....so no, the FBI data is not complete either....

Yes and the ncvs is also the only one that would weed out most of the criminals. I don't see any benefit to criminals defending against criminals.

 

[2aguy]

Brain....anyone who has driven a car and has broken the speed limit is a criminal.....along the same lines as an individual carrying a gun for protection from actual criminals....even though the law says that they can't.....that is not the definition that you are trying to apply to these people.....

 

[2aguy]

And again....

Guns and Self-Defense by Gary Kleck Ph.D.

The authors concluded that defensive uses of guns are about three to four times as common as criminal uses of guns. The National Self-Defense Survey confirmed the picture of frequent defensive gun use implied by the results of earlier, less sophisticated surveys.

 

[Brain357]

Brain....anyone who has driven a car and has broken the speed limit is a criminal.....along the same lines as an individual carrying a gun for protection from actual criminals....even though the law says that they can't.....that is not the definition that you are trying to apply to these people.....

I don't think anyone was driving a car above the speed limit when they defended themselves with a gun. More likely they were defending their drugs, a felon who can't have a gun, two gang members...