Horror at largest solar farm in Mojave Desert frys birds flying over

[Bill Angel]

Might I point out that the temperatures over this vast array of mirrors aren't the least bit extraordinary till you close in on the top of the tower. Flying over the mirrors or - as FCT suggests - down to the mirrors thinking they are water, will harm NOTHING. I can't recall who suggested the system would be a risk to aircraft, but, jesus people, put on your thinking caps for at least a few minutes a day.

We do think several minutes a day.. That's the diff.. There are ACRES of flyspace around the tower where concentrated energy will FRY or BLIND any bird that flies through. The beam is probably HUNDREDS of degrees for a quarter of the air volume of the beam area.

What about the possible damage the birds can do to the solar collection array? If birds are attracted to the collection array thinking that its a body of water, they will perch on the mirrors, and then defecate on them when they again take flight. The operators of the array may need to install bird repellers on the mirrors to prevent the birds from perching on them.
Here is an example of bird repellers installed on a statue to protect its finish:

 

[Synthaholic]

Remember, Two Thumbs, never drink and post. Otherwise you end up with what you just wrote, and you regret it the next day.

But he's always drunk.

 

[tinydancer]

In my mind human civilization comes first and green energy's biggest benefit is it is CLEAN. Clean by the fact that it produces next to zero air pollution that takes years off of peoples lives.

Billions of birds die because of our civilization every year.

Tell you what then Matthew. You and like minded individuals should go to California and go dynamite fishing for Delta Smelt. Just put an end to the species so farmers in California can have water.

Give 'er kid! Go wipe out the little bastards once and for all.



You're no conservationist or environmentalist.

That is your line, Tiny. In reality y6u care nothing for the birds, just another hook to hang your very Conservative views on. I have yet to see you post anything about the number of birds that the mining of the Canadian Tar Sands is killing.

May I suggest reading glasses sir? My response to Synthaholic on page two of this thread directly addresses bird deaths in the oil sands.

Oh and by the way, I've been into water conservation since Grassy Narrows, a fighter against intensive hog farming, against the insane boil water advisories on most First Nation Reserves and a member of Ducks Unlimited since before most of the posters on the board were born.

I've been more than a keyboard warrior for decades. When I started my conservation battles a keyboard was something you played on a piano.

Go live and work underground.

Enviro-nuts have a litany of 'acceptable" risks associated with the Green movement, yet give ZERO ground to even the most minimal of risks associated with hydrocarbons.

Conversely, pollution-lovers are always saying that the benefits of oil production outweigh the risks to wildlife. So...

Syn, with all due respect I don't know one Canuck who is in favor of risking the environment or its inhabitants be they feathered or furry for oil production.

That's why we have such strict environmental regulations AND this is a biggie strict enforcement of those regulations.

I mean the government lays a huge smackdown on any company that screws up. It's a big deal. They are put thru the wringer. And not just financially. In one instance a company was fined three million dollars for duck deaths at one of their tailings ponds.

Now some have said that's just a slap on the wrist but they are the radicals that wanted the death penalty for all the executives of the company, but they miss the bigger part of the government's punishment that they doled out.

Syncrude was required to completely overhaul their systems to prevent this from happening in the future. This was the federal and the provincial government going after the company. It was a big big big deal.

I've been a member of Ducks Unlimited for decades. I was right in there campaigning for a mega fine.

This is one of the reasons I do promote ethical oil from Canada. Really tough regulations not only on the environment but also for the work forces that are paid exceptionally well and have fabulous benefits.

Think Canada vs Nigeria in oil production. Or Canada vs Brazil. See where I'm going?

What disturbs me the most is that the wind farms and solar panel facilities have been allowed by American environmental agencies to get a free pass. This is crazy to a conservationist.

Wind farms in migratory paths killing raptors and bats at such an alarming rate is actually being allowed?

This new solar facility was allowed to build in one of the most sensitive areas of the Mojave where the desert tortoise is considered endangered?

And this will blow your mind. The company was allowed to move the desert tortoises to other areas of the Mojave but conservationists are claiming the tortoises died from the stress of the move. How crazy is this?

I mean aye carumba! I have nothing against green and renewable energy but it seems to me that how this is being handled is we're trading in big oil (who are regulated)for big green who are getting a free pass all in the name of renewable energy. .

It's just flat out wrong.

AND that pisses me off. I've got a mega income tax rebate coming and I'm going to donate, join and become very active in fighting certain projects up and coming.

And with 10 months of winter and two months of bad skating also known as summer, I have a lot of time on my hands for activism.

 

[mamooth]

The diversionary tactics of a three-year-old: "Bobby does it, so I should be able to, too!".

No, it's pointing out that you've been a stinking hypocrite. We can see on this thread how that infuriates the righties here, getting called out on their BS. None of 'em uttered a peep of concern about the birds prior to this. They don't care about birds. They just want reasons to yell hate at liberals. They're going into a pissy meltdown and lying about the reasons.

Two wrongs don't make a right, child. Or did your keepers never explain that to you?

Have a grownup explain the concept of tradeoffs to you. If you can't understand a concept that simple, as likely will be the case, just toddle on back to the kiddie table with your juicebox and stop bothering the grownups.

Just like your type are pooh-poohing the wholesale murder of millions of birds and the destruction of sensitive habitat for untold endangered or threatened species..as long as it fits into your immoral agenda to force everyone else to kowtow to your stupid, unsustainable fantasies.

You're getting hysterical there. You making up deranged bullshit about us doesn't make us hypocrites. I'm sure that crap plays well to your cult, but nobody outside your cult is gonna buy it.

 

[mamooth]

What disturbs me the most is that the wind farms and solar panel facilities have been allowed by American environmental agencies to get a free pass.

A lot of fictional things disturb the extreme right, but that doesn't mean regular people should panic over them.

 

[Abraham3]

Might I point out that the temperatures over this vast array of mirrors aren't the least bit extraordinary till you close in on the top of the tower. Flying over the mirrors or - as FCT suggests - down to the mirrors thinking they are water, will harm NOTHING. I can't recall who suggested the system would be a risk to aircraft, but, jesus people, put on your thinking caps for at least a few minutes a day.

We do think several minutes a day.. That's the diff.. There are ACRES of flyspace around the tower where concentrated energy will FRY or BLIND any bird that flies through. The beam is probably HUNDREDS of degrees for a quarter of the air volume of the beam area.

I disagree. The field of mirrors is much wider than the towers are high. The angle of converging light is obtuse and thus the rate it's flux density increases along the path is low. I'm sure it's dangerously hot before it gets to the tower, but not for 1/4th of its path.

As to aircraft - where are all those mirrors aimed for every minute of daylight? At the collectors on the three towers. How much misses the towers? As little as humanly possible. And what happens to that small amount of light as soon as it passes the tower? It spreads at an obtuse angle (ie, rapidly). While I'm certain if the entire mirror array were actually focused on an airplane it would be very bad but the odds of that happening accidentally are extremely small. There are NOT acres of airspace constantly dangerous to passing aircraft.

Note in your photograph that you can see the intense light beams as they near the tower (unless that's just Photoshopped in). Note that you don't see one speck of it above the tower.

I just read the Wikipedia article on Ivanpah. If one were concerned about its ecological impact, it seems you might be more concerned about the displaced desert tortoises and their loss of the Ivanpah habitat than the birds getting burned. Makes me think the choice of bird deaths vice stressed tortoises was made for emotional impact and not real environmental impact. Someone wanted to attack Ivanpah by any means possible. Saving animals was not their primary concern. If it were they might take into consideration that the plant prevents over 400,000 tons of carbon being put into the atmosphere annually as well as all the other particulate and chemical pollutants that burning 392 MW worth of fossil fuels would produce.

 

[Mr. H.]

What disturbs me the most is that the wind farms and solar panel facilities have been allowed by American environmental agencies to get a free pass.

A lot of fictional things disturb the extreme right, but that doesn't mean regular people should panic over them.

Truth is stranger than fiction...

White House gives wind farms 30-year pass on eagle deaths - CBS News

 

[Abraham3]

What disturbs me the most is that the wind farms and solar panel facilities have been allowed by American environmental agencies to get a free pass.

A lot of fictional things disturb the extreme right, but that doesn't mean regular people should panic over them.

Truth is stranger than fiction...

White House gives wind farms 30-year pass on eagle deaths - CBS News

From your article:

"The change, requested by the wind energy industry, will provide legal protection for the lifespan of wind farms and other projects for which companies obtain a permit and make efforts to avoid killing the birds."

and

"Under the change announced Friday, companies would have to commit to take additional measures if they kill or injure more eagles than they have estimated they would, or if new information suggests that eagle populations are being affected. The permits would be reviewed every five years, and companies would have to submit reports of how many eagles they kill."

 

[eagle1462010]

What disturbs me the most is that the wind farms and solar panel facilities have been allowed by American environmental agencies to get a free pass.

A lot of fictional things disturb the extreme right, but that doesn't mean regular people should panic over them.

Regular people, aka those that agree with you, are hypocritical................

Enviro Wacks will scream bloody murder if you don't agree with the energy source. Your side will stop construction of multi million dollar jobs because of dang field mouse.......................

Yet, when birds are fried or eagles are killed in wind farms..........No big deal.............

On this case, obviously a lot of money has gone into it...........The people in this area probably have had rate hikes to pay for it..............So shutting it down or moving it would possibly cost the people using this power even more money.................

So, it's time to find a way to scare the birds away from the site without hurting them or killing them........possibly some low emission radar arrays that will irritate the birds away from the site.

 

[whitehall]

You almost gotta laugh. The autistic a-holes in the radical enviro movement don't give a damn about the environment. It's all about politics. Windmills have been killing migratory birds and endangered raptors for years and bats and night flying birds are killed by those gigantic solar frying pans and the radical environmentalists couldn't care less or they aren't able to understand the issue.

 

[eagle1462010]

Wind farms: Interior Department sacrifices eagle protection for alternative energy - Washington Times

The Interior Department will finalize a rule Monday that would grant permits to let wind farms kill eagles for up to 30 years, six times longer than current permits allow.

Wind farms are the fields of turbines that dot the landscape. They kill about 440,000 birds a year, including some iconic bald eagles, golden eagles and other protected species, raising questions about the balance between renewable energy production and the environment it is supposed to be helping.

 

[mamooth]

Yet, when birds are fried or eagles are killed in wind farms..........No big deal.............

Nobody said that or implied it. Since you're just going to lie about us, what's the point in speaking to you? You conservatives are good at attacking strawman liberal positions, but rather helpless against the real thing.

We can of course, make a deal. If your conservatives will stop being such liars and hypocrites, I'll stop pointing it out. That seems eminently fair, right?

So, it's time to find a way to scare the birds away from the site without hurting them or killing them........possibly some low emission radar arrays that will irritate the birds away from the site.

Since everyone agrees with efforts to reduce bird deaths, so why did you claim people don't care?

 

[eagle1462010]

Yet, when birds are fried or eagles are killed in wind farms..........No big deal.............

Nobody said that or implied it. Since you're just going to lie about us, what's the point in speaking to you? You conservatives are good at attacking strawman liberal positions, but rather helpless against the real thing.

We can of course, make a deal. If your conservatives will stop being such liars and hypocrites, I'll stop pointing it out. That seems eminently fair, right?

So, it's time to find a way to scare the birds away from the site without hurting them or killing them........possibly some low emission radar arrays that will irritate the birds away from the site.

Since everyone agrees with efforts to reduce bird deaths, so why did you claim people don't care?

Do you have reading comprehension problems or did you skip by the info posted that showed POSTERS THAT BASICALLY DON'T CARE.....................................

Or did you see that the Obama administration has given 30 year permits at NO FOUL if they kill birds.............................................

Or did you read the part where 400,000 birds are being killed due to these alternate energy sites..........................


Coming from your side who gets ticked off over a dang insect on a construction site.

 

[eagle1462010]

BTW..............Show me the EPA'S solution to the birds death..........................

What solutions..........................Oh hell, just give them a 30 year permit to kill birds............no penalties.............Because it's CLEAN ENERGY.........................

Die birds, who cares.

Brain damage....................Show me the solutions..............

 

[Abraham3]

Producing that energy by burning fossil fuels will kill orders of magnitude more birds and every other form of wildlife in the vicinity than will producing it by wind or solar power. If you cared about this wild life, you'd be on the other side of this argument.

 

[eagle1462010]

Producing that energy by burning fossil fuels will kill orders of magnitude more birds and every other form of wildlife in the vicinity than will producing it by wind or solar power. If you cared about this wild life, you'd be on the other side of this argument.

Really.........I've worked around these areas for a very long time.........I don't see the birds and wildlife dying there.................

I've had to hold up working an area because of baby pigeons so we wouldn't disturb them.

And again, you justify the damage of energy you approve of while demonizing the forms of energy that allow you to drive down the road and bring power into your house.

Replacing that form of energy will make everyone's power bill go up and has already done so..............

Who's going to save the poor people from YOU..............

 

[Star]

Tell you what then Matthew. You and like minded individuals should go to California and go dynamite fishing for Delta Smelt. Just put an end to the species so farmers in California can have water.

Give 'er kid! Go wipe out the little bastards once and for all.



You're no conservationist or environmentalist.

That is your line, Tiny. In reality y6u care nothing for the birds, just another hook to hang your very Conservative views on. I have yet to see you post anything about the number of birds that the mining of the Canadian Tar Sands is killing.

May I suggest reading glasses sir? My response to Synthaholic on page two of this thread directly addresses bird deaths in the oil sands.

Oh and by the way, I've been into water conservation since Grassy Narrows, a fighter against intensive hog farming, against the insane boil water advisories on most First Nation Reserves and a member of Ducks Unlimited since before most of the posters on the board were born.

I've been more than a keyboard warrior for decades. When I started my conservation battles a keyboard was something you played on a piano.

Conversely, pollution-lovers are always saying that the benefits of oil production outweigh the risks to wildlife. So...

Syn, with all due respect I don't know one Canuck who is in favor of risking the environment or its inhabitants be they feathered or furry for oil production.

That's why we have such strict environmental regulations AND this is a biggie strict enforcement of those regulations.

I mean the government lays a huge smackdown on any company that screws up. It's a big deal. They are put thru the wringer. And not just financially. In one instance a company was fined three million dollars for duck deaths at one of their tailings ponds.

Now some have said that's just a slap on the wrist but they are the radicals that wanted the death penalty for all the executives of the company, but they miss the bigger part of the government's punishment that they doled out.

Syncrude was required to completely overhaul their systems to prevent this from happening in the future. This was the federal and the provincial government going after the company. It was a big big big deal.

I've been a member of Ducks Unlimited for decades. I was right in there campaigning for a mega fine.

This is one of the reasons I do promote ethical oil from Canada. Really tough regulations not only on the environment but also for the work forces that are paid exceptionally well and have fabulous benefits.

Think Canada vs Nigeria in oil production. Or Canada vs Brazil. See where I'm going?

What disturbs me the most is that the wind farms and solar panel facilities have been allowed by American environmental agencies to get a free pass. This is crazy to a conservationist.

Wind farms in migratory paths killing raptors and bats at such an alarming rate is actually being allowed?

This new solar facility was allowed to build in one of the most sensitive areas of the Mojave where the desert tortoise is considered endangered?

And this will blow your mind. The company was allowed to move the desert tortoises to other areas of the Mojave but conservationists are claiming the tortoises died from the stress of the move. How crazy is this?

I mean aye carumba! I have nothing against green and renewable energy but it seems to me that how this is being handled is we're trading in big oil (who are regulated)for big green who are getting a free pass all in the name of renewable energy. .

It's just flat out wrong.

AND that pisses me off. I've got a mega income tax rebate coming and I'm going to donate, join and become very active in fighting certain projects up and coming.

And with 10 months of winter and two months of bad skating also known as summer, I have a lot of time on my hands for activism.

It's not often I find myself on the same side of an issue as tinydancer but-----but, I too, am in favor of maximizing our conservation efforts to minimize our loss of wild birds et al in our quest for more energy for a world that is demanding moreandmore and more energy.

Because...
...wind farms kill roughly 0.27 birds per GWh and
nuclear plants kill about 0.6 birds per GWh (2.2x wind) and
fossil-fueled power stations kill about 9.4 birds per GWh. (34.8x wind),
I expect tinydancer and all others on the USMB that have expressed an interest in preserving wild bird and animal life to join with me in petitioning the DOE to close all fossil-fueled power stations and nuclear plants at the earliest possible date that their GWh can be replaced by fhe much more wildlife friendly wind and solar power and-----and good on all the righties that have expressed a hankering for conservation - it takes guts to go against the billionaires and still identify yourself as a-----as a conservative.

I came upon this bird directly in front of the door of my local library. The bird hit the glass of the library door and died. Yes, 3rd on the list of things that cause birds to die, is collisions with buildings.
.​

 

[JQPublic1]

The ops initial picture implies that birds flying over the array of mirrors are being fried in flight. No, that is not the case. The frying takes place when birds ,or anything else, get too close to one of three towers in the array

.. I have taken the liberty of showing one of the towers which makes a far smaller "footprint" than the wider spread of mirrors. While zapping birds is still a problem, It is not as bad as I first thought. Just flying over the mirrors has no effect on the birds, they have to be near one of the towers! Just how close , I cannot say!

 

[Politico]

That's a pretty sick thing to be laughing about

I'm not laughing. I'm royally pissed off that somehow enviro whackos think it's a swell idea to despoil the Mojave.

Solar equals whacko who knew? I have panels and I assure you I don't give a shit about the environment.

 

[Bill Angel]

Producing that energy by burning fossil fuels will kill orders of magnitude more birds and every other form of wildlife in the vicinity than will producing it by wind or solar power. If you cared about this wild life, you'd be on the other side of this argument.

Really.........I've worked around these areas for a very long time.........I don't see the birds and wildlife dying there.................

I've had to hold up working an area because of baby pigeons so we wouldn't disturb them.

And again, you justify the damage of energy you approve of while demonizing the forms of energy that allow you to drive down the road and bring power into your house.

Replacing that form of energy will make everyone's power bill go up and has already done so..............

Who's going to save the poor people from YOU..............

I would not hold up work in an area because of the presence of baby pigeons. Birds like pigeons, sparrows, and starlings are nuisances, and their presence in urban areas diminishes the presence of songbirds.