How can liberals believe that...

[g5000]

How can liberals believe that...any parroting pseudocon will ever actually know what they believe?

 

[Cecilie1200]

... [insert your question here]?

I'm new, and I've noticed that conservatives seem to outnumber liberals by quite a bit in this forum. For me, it's sort of like visiting foreign country where you don't quite understand the local culture.

But, it seems to me that beneath the contempt that many of you feel for folks on the political left there's also a large disconnect between what I think of as typical liberal views and your perception of those views. So much so that in many threads it's hard to figure out where to begin to respond.

So! I thought this idea for a thread might be entertaining. The gist is this: say you're baffled by some view that liberals/leftists generally hold. Ask me about it, and I'll try to explain it a little bit.

A few notes:

1) this probably works better if you ask questions about policy preferences, values, or general beliefs about the world (e.g. on the environment, or civil rights, or the criminal justice system, or gender equality, ...) and worse if you ask about obscure current events, which I may or may not know anything about, and on which I won't necessarily know what most liberals think.

2) I may disagree with the premises of your question. I will probably just ignore purely rhetorical/trollish questions unless I think there's some hope of an interesting conversation in it.

3) I don't actually speak for everyone, or even anyone, on the left. I'm not suggesting that only I am allowed to answer or that only my answers count. It's just a goofy idea for a thread.

4) After I try to explain something you are free to insult me and/or liberals in general as suits your mood. Or, really, you don't technically need to wait that long, but it's more interesting if you do, IMO.

I'd personally be more interested in hearing what you think this "disconnect" is. Is it REALLY between leftist (sorry, but there IS a difference between liberals and people on the left) views and our perceptions of them, or is it between what they PRESENT their views as and our perceptions?

No offense, and I'm not going to automatically include you in this, but the fact is that a lot of people on the left lie, both to others and themselves, about what they're really supporting.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Well, looks like the OP hit and ran. He was going to explain and all we have is a troll here spinning and half truthing as usual.

He DID say he was a bit slow about responding. So we'll see.

 

[Cecilie1200]

How can liberals believe that...guns cause crime when they don't want to punish criminals?

Again, I think your premises are dubious, both that guns cause crime and that liberals are against criminal punishment in general. But here's my opinion:

Guns don't "cause" crime in any simple sense of the word cause, but there's ample evidence that the widespread availability of guns is highly correlated to deadly violence (cf. various charts here). If we had fewer guns, we would have fewer violent deaths, fewer suicides, and we would also almost certainly have fewer problems with police shooting people that didn't need shooting, because the police would be in dangerous situations less often.

So, there is a large social cost associated with having so many guns. There are also (from a liberal point of view) relatively few benefits. Guns are not, in fact, a useful deterrent to government tyranny, at least not in the 21st century. Guns are not a particularly desirable means of self-defense, or at the very least it would be preferable to not need guns for self defense, i.e. because there aren't so many guns. Liberals look at other countries and see that they don't have these problems.

Add that all together, and the conclusion is that guns aren't worth their social cost, and we ought to restrict access to them more than we do. Note that none of this reasoning has anything to do with the topic of criminal punishment in general. It's purely a cost/benefit calculation.

Sorry, but Vox.com doesn't constitute evidence, let alone "ample evidence". Try again with someone vaguely trustworthy.

And how is our premise "dubious", when our premise was, in fact, that people on the left believe that the answer to violence is to just make guns stop existing based on really bad, biased opinions masquerading as fact?

You basically just validated our premise with your whole post.

 

[miketx]

There is usually physical evidence or evidence that the alleged was actually there. There is no proof with CBF that Kav was even there and non of her witnesses recall it. If there was corroboration that Kav was even in the same house then it may be a different story. Damn, you're dumb.

Again.....you are changing the premise from “no evidence” to “not enough evidence”

The only "evidence" is from a leftwing hack who deleted all her social media before coming out to blame Kavanaugh of rape 36 years later after DiFi sat on it for 7 weeks.

STFU ya lefty loon.

Trump said she gave credible testimony until he turned Trump and reversed himself.
Many women have repressed sexual attacks for decades. Look at Bill Cosby or men molested by priests
They remember the attacks vividly but not some of the details of the surroundings

But DiFi had to stretch it out another 7 weeks?
You leftist are good for nothing but amusement and ridicule.
Here's a little tip...the rest of America sees right through your bullshit.

Why were Republicans willing to ignore potential sexual assault charges in order to rush a vote?
It is a lifetime appointment, why not get the facts first?

As you have been told a thousand times, there are no witnesses and no proof. & investigations and nothing! NOTHING troll.

 

[well named]

I'd personally be more interested in hearing what you think this "disconnect" is. Is it REALLY between leftist (sorry, but there IS a difference between liberals and people on the left) views and our perceptions of them, or is it between what they PRESENT their views as and our perceptions?

No offense, and I'm not going to automatically include you in this, but the fact is that a lot of people on the left lie, both to others and themselves, about what they're really supporting.

It's difficult to say too much in response here without being more specific, but I think it might be meaningful that you included the idea that people are lying to themselves. I think there's a pretty important distinction between knowingly telling lies and being deluded (assuming you don't mind my characterizing people lying to themselves as delusional). The first is acting in bad faith, in an attempt to gain power, manipulate, or to achieve some end, presumably. The latter really just reduces to saying that the person is wrong, even if it adds the connotation of being inexcusably wrong.

And I think the distinction actually comes pretty close to the disconnect I had in mind. You don't just think that leftists are wrong in some pedestrian sense, you seem to think they are dishonestly, immorally wrong. Whether because they are arguing in bad faith or are just somehow morally culpable in an especially strong sense. But that's not my experience of people on the left at all. My experience is that they (and myself, to be sure) may have all the same kinds of faults that people invariably do, but we tend to be pretty earnest about our beliefs and values.*

In fact, I think most people, not just leftists, are usually pretty earnest in their beliefs, if not always in their conversations. When I read some more leftist-dominated forums, I see that many of them also view people on the right not just as wrong, but either dishonest or delusional. The disconnect -- in part -- is that we can't talk to each other because we seem to share so little common ground that honest disagreement appears to be bad faith from the very start. It doesn't help that the topics we disagree about are enormously important, from abortion to immigration to racial and gender equality. There's a moral component that I think helps explain why we take someone being wrong (in our opinion) to mean being immoral. I think when you say that people are lying, even to themselves, you're capturing something of that. Liberals aren't just wrong in your opinion, they are immoral, and I think you might be working backwards a bit from there to conclude that they are lying. Meanwhile, leftists feel much the same (cf. "deplorables").

One of my interests is in trying to have conversations with people who I disagree with so strongly as to be tempted to immediately dismiss them as immoral in this sense. And I mean, I'm not saying I don't think that some of the posters in this forum are immoral; I'm sure I do. We have real differences. But the above may explain my interest in this thread.

Also: I'm going to watch a movie with my wife in a bit. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread but you'll have to excuse me if I let it develop slowly over the weekend and through next week

* I'm not including politicians...

 

[Cecilie1200]

Are you kidding or trolling with that statement?

Prove me wrong

This is not Islam. In America we are presumed innocent until proven guilty. I mean you were a Holocaust denier in HS and drew swastikas on schools. Prove me wrong....

You fail to prove my statement wrong
Going into an anti-Muslim rant or a Godwin Defense does nothing to help your case

Where is the proof and corroborating witnesses in fords case liar?

Collins and Manchin voted Yes. It's over. Now will you shut up about Kavanaugh PLEASE?

For once, I agree. If you absolutely HAVE to obsess over the Kavanaugh confirmation and repeat the same thing 40 million times, go do it in a thread dedicated to that. Don't insist on making everything ELSE about it, too.

 

[well named]

Sorry, but Vox.com doesn't constitute evidence

I'm sure there's a long conversation to be had about epistemology, but in any case Vox isn't the source for the interesting data in the article, they are merely a convenient aggregator for it. I'm always willing to entertain objections to various research, data, methods, or whatever else, but they'd have to be more specific than just "I won't accept any link to Vox," especially when all of the relevant information in the article is links to other sources.

Also, to be clear, reducing the number of guns is a solution to gun-related violence, not to violence in general. But since gun-violence is orders of magnitude more deadly than other forms of violence, and because guns have little social value, it seems like a no-brainer to me.

Anyway, I said I would attempt to explain my views, I didn't expect to persuade anyone of them, which is obviously a more difficult task.

 

[miketx]

Are you kidding or trolling with that statement?

Prove me wrong

This is not Islam. In America we are presumed innocent until proven guilty. I mean you were a Holocaust denier in HS and drew swastikas on schools. Prove me wrong....

You fail to prove my statement wrong
Going into an anti-Muslim rant or a Godwin Defense does nothing to help your case

Where is the proof and corroborating witnesses in fords case liar?

Collins and Manchin voted Yes. It's over. Now will you shut up about Kavanaugh PLEASE?

But like the deflector you are, those people aren't witnesses. lol! The OP stated to ask how can liberals believe. I did, but none of you liars have the spine to explain it. Instead you do what you always do, troll and deflect and attack and play your usual games and then, when you get your ass handed to you like you have today, you still have no idea why it happened. lol!

 

[RetiredGySgt]

How can liberals believe that...not having any proof yet someone should still be punished?

Eyewitness testimony is proof. Many people are in prison based on eyewitness restimony

No one has ever been convicted on ONE persons faulty memory of events from 36 years ago. To recap she said there were 4 attackers in 2012. She could not name them in 2012. Her best friend from the 80's under oath stated they did NOT know kavanaugh or Judge at the time of the supposed attack. NONE of her witnesses REMEMBER any such gathering. She does not know where or when the event took place. She does not remember how she got there or how she got home. She testified that Kavanaugh and Judge were so quiet coming UP the stairs she never heard them BUT that they were SO DRUNK that going down they were bouncing off the walls. She lied about being afraid of flying, she lied about her front door, she lied about coaching people to pass the polygraph. Yup 12 honest people would sure convict on HER words alone. Sure thing.

 

[bripat9643]

How can liberals believe that...not having any proof yet someone should still be punished?

Eyewitness testimony is proof. Many people are in prison based on eyewitness restimony

Not when it's the only evidence. Did anyone ever explain to you idiots that a lot of people lie?

 

[rightwinger]

Again.....you are changing the premise from “no evidence” to “not enough evidence”

The only "evidence" is from a leftwing hack who deleted all her social media before coming out to blame Kavanaugh of rape 36 years later after DiFi sat on it for 7 weeks.

STFU ya lefty loon.

Trump said she gave credible testimony until he turned Trump and reversed himself.
Many women have repressed sexual attacks for decades. Look at Bill Cosby or men molested by priests
They remember the attacks vividly but not some of the details of the surroundings

But DiFi had to stretch it out another 7 weeks?
You leftist are good for nothing but amusement and ridicule.
Here's a little tip...the rest of America sees right through your bullshit.

Why were Republicans willing to ignore potential sexual assault charges in order to rush a vote?
It is a lifetime appointment, why not get the facts first?

Here's the simple answer for the simpleton.
They knew the accusations were total bullshit.

How would they “know” that without talking to either party?

 

[rightwinger]

Again.....you are changing the premise from “no evidence” to “not enough evidence”

The only "evidence" is from a leftwing hack who deleted all her social media before coming out to blame Kavanaugh of rape 36 years later after DiFi sat on it for 7 weeks.

STFU ya lefty loon.

Trump said she gave credible testimony until he turned Trump and reversed himself.
Many women have repressed sexual attacks for decades. Look at Bill Cosby or men molested by priests
They remember the attacks vividly but not some of the details of the surroundings

But DiFi had to stretch it out another 7 weeks?
You leftist are good for nothing but amusement and ridicule.
Here's a little tip...the rest of America sees right through your bullshit.

Why were Republicans willing to ignore potential sexual assault charges in order to rush a vote?
It is a lifetime appointment, why not get the facts first?

As you have been told a thousand times, there are no witnesses and no proof. & investigations and nothing! NOTHING troll.

Kavanaugh was not convicted......he was investigated by a Senate Committee

You claim there was no evidence. An eyewitness is evidence. Any victim of sexual assault can go into a police station and make a complaint. Police will investigate based on a complaint...That is what the Senate did...investigate

Why did Republicans want to rush a decision BEFORE the complaint had been investigated?

 

[rightwinger]

How can liberals believe that...not having any proof yet someone should still be punished?

Eyewitness testimony is proof. Many people are in prison based on eyewitness restimony

Not when it's the only evidence. Did anyone ever explain to you idiots that a lot of people lie?

You especially

 

[rightwinger]

How can liberals believe that...not having any proof yet someone should still be punished?

Eyewitness testimony is proof. Many people are in prison based on eyewitness restimony

No one has ever been convicted on ONE persons faulty memory of events from 36 years ago. To recap she said there were 4 attackers in 2012. She could not name them in 2012. Her best friend from the 80's under oath stated they did NOT know kavanaugh or Judge at the time of the supposed attack. NONE of her witnesses REMEMBER any such gathering. She does not know where or when the event took place. She does not remember how she got there or how she got home. She testified that Kavanaugh and Judge were so quiet coming UP the stairs she never heard them BUT that they were SO DRUNK that going down they were bouncing off the walls. She lied about being afraid of flying, she lied about her front door, she lied about coaching people to pass the polygraph. Yup 12 honest people would sure convict on HER words alone. Sure thing.

Kavenaugh was not convicted was he?

 

[jon_berzerk]

The left only cares about politics...they don't care about women, blacks, gays, men, whites, Asians or anyone. If you oppose them you must be defamed and destroyed. And they are allowed to do that with no evidence....aka they just don't care.......the end ALWAYS justifies the means for them.

anytime they bring up 4th amendment issues or any due process..just laugh in their face........they are a joke

they dont even care about politics

they only care about power and lining their own pockets

as seen with this rabid amount of corruption flowing out of the party

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The only "evidence" is from a leftwing hack who deleted all her social media before coming out to blame Kavanaugh of rape 36 years later after DiFi sat on it for 7 weeks.

STFU ya lefty loon.

Trump said she gave credible testimony until he turned Trump and reversed himself.
Many women have repressed sexual attacks for decades. Look at Bill Cosby or men molested by priests
They remember the attacks vividly but not some of the details of the surroundings

But DiFi had to stretch it out another 7 weeks?
You leftist are good for nothing but amusement and ridicule.
Here's a little tip...the rest of America sees right through your bullshit.

Why were Republicans willing to ignore potential sexual assault charges in order to rush a vote?
It is a lifetime appointment, why not get the facts first?

As you have been told a thousand times, there are no witnesses and no proof. & investigations and nothing! NOTHING troll.

Kavanaugh was not convicted......he was investigated by a Senate Committee

You claim there was no evidence. An eyewitness is evidence. Any victim of sexual assault can go into a police station and make a complaint. Police will investigate based on a complaint...That is what the Senate did...investigate

Why did Republicans want to rush a decision BEFORE the complaint had been investigated?

Why? Because it was not a legitimate complaint. If it were it would have been brought up at the start of the hearings and handled then NOT days before the vote in an effort to derail the vote. Further after HEARING the supposed evidence it is CLEAR it was a made up complaint in an effort to derail the vote. Ford openly lied UNDER OATH at least 3 times, no reason to believe any of the rest of her testimony.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

The only "evidence" is from a leftwing hack who deleted all her social media before coming out to blame Kavanaugh of rape 36 years later after DiFi sat on it for 7 weeks.

STFU ya lefty loon.

Trump said she gave credible testimony until he turned Trump and reversed himself.
Many women have repressed sexual attacks for decades. Look at Bill Cosby or men molested by priests
They remember the attacks vividly but not some of the details of the surroundings

But DiFi had to stretch it out another 7 weeks?
You leftist are good for nothing but amusement and ridicule.
Here's a little tip...the rest of America sees right through your bullshit.

Why were Republicans willing to ignore potential sexual assault charges in order to rush a vote?
It is a lifetime appointment, why not get the facts first?

Here's the simple answer for the simpleton.
They knew the accusations were total bullshit.

How would they “know” that without talking to either party?

Ya Fuken loon!!
They had an all day hearing where she had every chance in the world to say whatever she wanted!

 

[SassyIrishLass]

The only "evidence" is from a leftwing hack who deleted all her social media before coming out to blame Kavanaugh of rape 36 years later after DiFi sat on it for 7 weeks.

STFU ya lefty loon.

Trump said she gave credible testimony until he turned Trump and reversed himself.
Many women have repressed sexual attacks for decades. Look at Bill Cosby or men molested by priests
They remember the attacks vividly but not some of the details of the surroundings

But DiFi had to stretch it out another 7 weeks?
You leftist are good for nothing but amusement and ridicule.
Here's a little tip...the rest of America sees right through your bullshit.

Why were Republicans willing to ignore potential sexual assault charges in order to rush a vote?
It is a lifetime appointment, why not get the facts first?

As you have been told a thousand times, there are no witnesses and no proof. & investigations and nothing! NOTHING troll.

Kavanaugh was not convicted......he was investigated by a Senate Committee

You claim there was no evidence. An eyewitness is evidence. Any victim of sexual assault can go into a police station and make a complaint. Police will investigate based on a complaint...That is what the Senate did...investigate

Why did Republicans want to rush a decision BEFORE the complaint had been investigated?

You lost....get the fuck over it.

 

[ABikerSailor]

How can liberals believe that...they know what the temperature was 33000 years ago?

You are confusing liberals with Scientists

You are lying again. Most "scientists" who work for the gov are liberals. I knew many. Especially in the national weather service where you either swallowed the global warming hype or found another job.

Possibly they bought it because they understand the scientific method well enough to trust the overwhelming evidence of climate change, what is causing it and what limited options we have to limit its impact..

lol 33000 thousand years ago. Even Fred Flintstone can't help your fantasy.

Actually, by going to Antarctica and the North Pole and taking ice core samples, they have a pretty good idea what the world was like back then as far as climate goes.