How close the real Confederacy came to the alt-left

[Rustic]

Do you want to actually have a discussion about what might have been or do you just want a bunch of people to just swallow your assumptions whole? I like discussing the civil war but only if I am not wasting time with someone who really does not know anything about it.

Progressives are racists

 

[Divine Wind]

Do you want to actually have a discussion about what might have been or do you just want a bunch of people to just swallow your assumptions whole? I like discussing the civil war but only if I am not wasting time with someone who really does not know anything about it.

No. I want a discussion on the similarities of the Old South structure of government and the idealistic structure of government of "modern Liberals". Frankly, I was a bit taken aback by the article since it revealed or explored areas I've never considered before.

Nowadays, myself included, think of the Confederacy as an expression of "State's Rights", but as the Professor's article points out, the CSA trampled all over state's rights just like the modern left. The elitism, the lacking of a strong Middle Class, something "modern Liberals" have been chipping away since the 1970s. Democrats used to be supportive of blue collar workers, the backbone of America, but nowadays, like the CSA, they only back the elite and throw just enough breadcrumbs to others to shut up opposition.

The South was not industrialized to the extent of the North, which makes the south an Agrarian society, which tends to have a smaller middle class than industrialized societies......

I thought that too, but as Professor Guelzo points out, that's not quite true. In fact, more and more slaves were being used in industry, especially railroads:

The African-American Railroad Experience
The entire southern railroad network that was built during the slavery era was built almost exclusively by slaves. Some of the railroads owned slaves, other railroads hired or rented slaves from slave owners. And the most shocking thing that I found was that women as well as men were actually involved in the hard, dangerous, brutal work of railroad construction and continued to work for railroads after they were built in lesser roles.....

....The railroads were the best—in the south—were the best alternative to escaping two worse fates, either agriculture which often meant sharecropping, which meant you were in debt year after year after year, or domestic service. The railroads were the most important industry that blacks ever worked in. Blacks worked more – More blacks were railroaders than were steel workers, were coalminers, were loggers, you pick the industry that African-Americans participated in railroading, and in a wide sense, more than any other industry. So this is the—the—African-American industrial experience.....

 

[Moonglow]

Do you want to actually have a discussion about what might have been or do you just want a bunch of people to just swallow your assumptions whole? I like discussing the civil war but only if I am not wasting time with someone who really does not know anything about it.

Progressives are racists

Then don't buy from that insurance company..

 

[Moonglow]

Do you want to actually have a discussion about what might have been or do you just want a bunch of people to just swallow your assumptions whole? I like discussing the civil war but only if I am not wasting time with someone who really does not know anything about it.

No. I want a discussion on the similarities of the Old South structure of government and the idealistic structure of government of "modern Liberals". Frankly, I was a bit taken aback by the article since it revealed or explored areas I've never considered before.

Nowadays, myself included, think of the Confederacy as an expression of "State's Rights", but as the Professor's article points out, the CSA trampled all over state's rights just like the modern left. The elitism, the lacking of a strong Middle Class, something "modern Liberals" have been chipping away since the 1970s. Democrats used to be supportive of blue collar workers, the backbone of America, but nowadays, like the CSA, they only back the elite and throw just enough breadcrumbs to others to shut up opposition.

The South was not industrialized to the extent of the North, which makes the south an Agrarian society, which tends to have a smaller middle class than industrialized societies......

I thought that too, but as Professor Guelzo points out, that's not quite true. In fact, more and more slaves were being used in industry, especially railroads:

The African-American Railroad Experience
The entire southern railroad network that was built during the slavery era was built almost exclusively by slaves. Some of the railroads owned slaves, other railroads hired or rented slaves from slave owners. And the most shocking thing that I found was that women as well as men were actually involved in the hard, dangerous, brutal work of railroad construction and continued to work for railroads after they were built in lesser roles.....

....The railroads were the best—in the south—were the best alternative to escaping two worse fates, either agriculture which often meant sharecropping, which meant you were in debt year after year after year, or domestic service. The railroads were the most important industry that blacks ever worked in. Blacks worked more – More blacks were railroaders than were steel workers, were coalminers, were loggers, you pick the industry that African-Americans participated in railroading, and in a wide sense, more than any other industry. So this is the—the—African-American industrial experience.....

What does that have to do with a smaller middle class?

 

[Syriusly]

Do you want to actually have a discussion about what might have been or do you just want a bunch of people to just swallow your assumptions whole? I like discussing the civil war but only if I am not wasting time with someone who really does not know anything about it.

Progressives are racists

 

[Moonglow]

I pressed the alt left keys and nothing happened...

 

[Divine Wind]

There are a lot of places this thread could have been placed, but the quote below places it squarely in political current events :

"how close the real Confederacy also came to the fantasies of the alt-left"

As Professor Guelzo's article points out, the social structure of the Confederacy was highly stratified and more closely resembles the elitism and socialism of the Left Wing. Maybe it's a good thing Lincoln
did invade the South in the War of Northern Aggression!


What if the South had won the Civil War? 4 sci-fi scenarios for HBO's 'Confederate'
A successful Confederacy would be a zero-sum economy. In the world of Confederate, the economy would be a hierarchy, with no social mobility, since mobility among economic classes would open the door to economic mobility across racial lines. At the top would be the elite slave-owning families, which owned not only assets but labor, and at the bottom, legally-enslaved African Americans, holding down most of the working-class jobs. There would be no middle class, apart from a thin stratum of professionals: doctors, clergy and lawyers. Beyond that would be only a vast reservoir of restless and unemployable whites, free but bribed into cooperation by Confederate government subsidies and racist propaganda.

Social media progressives are probably right to draw back in horror from the prospect offered by Confederate, although not always for the reasons they presume. The Confederate economy, like the modern Chinese economy, was in the capitalist world but not of it. The Confederate elite of 1861 did not mind making money, but it was aggressively hostile to entrepreneurship and contemptuous of middle-class culture. The most famous advocate of the slave system, George Fitzhugh, frankly described slavery as “traditional socialism” and bitterly contrasted the cruelty of free-market “cannibalism” with the cradle-to-grave welfare provided by the slave owner.

The Confederate government centralized political authority in ways that made a hash of states’ rights, nationalized industries in ways historians have compared to “state socialism,” and imposed the first compulsory national draft in American history. If Benioff and Weiss are successful in creating an alternative world in Confederate, it will shock us fully as much as Game of Thrones has — not for how much of the Confederate future we avoided, but how little.

Tell us more about this government that was created- and led by Christian white men?

The Holy Roman Empire? The British Empire? Napoleon's empire?

Apparently the Confederate empire......

The Confederacy wasn't an empire. Obviously it also wasn't the only one created by "Christian white men".

 

[Divine Wind]

I pressed the alt left keys and nothing happened...

That's because they are weak and not very smart.

 

[Divine Wind]

Do you want to actually have a discussion about what might have been or do you just want a bunch of people to just swallow your assumptions whole? I like discussing the civil war but only if I am not wasting time with someone who really does not know anything about it.

No. I want a discussion on the similarities of the Old South structure of government and the idealistic structure of government of "modern Liberals". Frankly, I was a bit taken aback by the article since it revealed or explored areas I've never considered before.

Nowadays, myself included, think of the Confederacy as an expression of "State's Rights", but as the Professor's article points out, the CSA trampled all over state's rights just like the modern left. The elitism, the lacking of a strong Middle Class, something "modern Liberals" have been chipping away since the 1970s. Democrats used to be supportive of blue collar workers, the backbone of America, but nowadays, like the CSA, they only back the elite and throw just enough breadcrumbs to others to shut up opposition.

The South was not industrialized to the extent of the North, which makes the south an Agrarian society, which tends to have a smaller middle class than industrialized societies......

I thought that too, but as Professor Guelzo points out, that's not quite true. In fact, more and more slaves were being used in industry, especially railroads:

The African-American Railroad Experience
The entire southern railroad network that was built during the slavery era was built almost exclusively by slaves. Some of the railroads owned slaves, other railroads hired or rented slaves from slave owners. And the most shocking thing that I found was that women as well as men were actually involved in the hard, dangerous, brutal work of railroad construction and continued to work for railroads after they were built in lesser roles.....

....The railroads were the best—in the south—were the best alternative to escaping two worse fates, either agriculture which often meant sharecropping, which meant you were in debt year after year after year, or domestic service. The railroads were the most important industry that blacks ever worked in. Blacks worked more – More blacks were railroaders than were steel workers, were coalminers, were loggers, you pick the industry that African-Americans participated in railroading, and in a wide sense, more than any other industry. So this is the—the—African-American industrial experience.....

What does that have to do with a smaller middle class?

Nice dodge. You claimed the South wasn't industrialized. There are several historical links that say that ain't so.

As for the smaller middle class, the original article by Professor Guelzo pointed out reasons. I found it to be similar to the Spanish system in South and Central America where there were a few "El Hefes" and a shitload of peons with very few middle class. In the case of the American South, the peons were slaves, but the results were the same.

 

[Syriusly]

There are a lot of places this thread could have been placed, but the quote below places it squarely in political current events :

"how close the real Confederacy also came to the fantasies of the alt-left"

As Professor Guelzo's article points out, the social structure of the Confederacy was highly stratified and more closely resembles the elitism and socialism of the Left Wing. Maybe it's a good thing Lincoln
did invade the South in the War of Northern Aggression!


What if the South had won the Civil War? 4 sci-fi scenarios for HBO's 'Confederate'
A successful Confederacy would be a zero-sum economy. In the world of Confederate, the economy would be a hierarchy, with no social mobility, since mobility among economic classes would open the door to economic mobility across racial lines. At the top would be the elite slave-owning families, which owned not only assets but labor, and at the bottom, legally-enslaved African Americans, holding down most of the working-class jobs. There would be no middle class, apart from a thin stratum of professionals: doctors, clergy and lawyers. Beyond that would be only a vast reservoir of restless and unemployable whites, free but bribed into cooperation by Confederate government subsidies and racist propaganda.

Social media progressives are probably right to draw back in horror from the prospect offered by Confederate, although not always for the reasons they presume. The Confederate economy, like the modern Chinese economy, was in the capitalist world but not of it. The Confederate elite of 1861 did not mind making money, but it was aggressively hostile to entrepreneurship and contemptuous of middle-class culture. The most famous advocate of the slave system, George Fitzhugh, frankly described slavery as “traditional socialism” and bitterly contrasted the cruelty of free-market “cannibalism” with the cradle-to-grave welfare provided by the slave owner.

The Confederate government centralized political authority in ways that made a hash of states’ rights, nationalized industries in ways historians have compared to “state socialism,” and imposed the first compulsory national draft in American history. If Benioff and Weiss are successful in creating an alternative world in Confederate, it will shock us fully as much as Game of Thrones has — not for how much of the Confederate future we avoided, but how little.

Tell us more about this government that was created- and led by Christian white men?

The Holy Roman Empire? The British Empire? Napoleon's empire?

Apparently the Confederate empire......

The Confederacy wasn't an empire. Obviously it also wasn't the only one created by "Christian white men".

However the Confederacy was indeed a government created- and led- by Christian white men.

 

[Divine Wind]

There are a lot of places this thread could have been placed, but the quote below places it squarely in political current events :

"how close the real Confederacy also came to the fantasies of the alt-left"

As Professor Guelzo's article points out, the social structure of the Confederacy was highly stratified and more closely resembles the elitism and socialism of the Left Wing. Maybe it's a good thing Lincoln
did invade the South in the War of Northern Aggression!


What if the South had won the Civil War? 4 sci-fi scenarios for HBO's 'Confederate'
A successful Confederacy would be a zero-sum economy. In the world of Confederate, the economy would be a hierarchy, with no social mobility, since mobility among economic classes would open the door to economic mobility across racial lines. At the top would be the elite slave-owning families, which owned not only assets but labor, and at the bottom, legally-enslaved African Americans, holding down most of the working-class jobs. There would be no middle class, apart from a thin stratum of professionals: doctors, clergy and lawyers. Beyond that would be only a vast reservoir of restless and unemployable whites, free but bribed into cooperation by Confederate government subsidies and racist propaganda.

Social media progressives are probably right to draw back in horror from the prospect offered by Confederate, although not always for the reasons they presume. The Confederate economy, like the modern Chinese economy, was in the capitalist world but not of it. The Confederate elite of 1861 did not mind making money, but it was aggressively hostile to entrepreneurship and contemptuous of middle-class culture. The most famous advocate of the slave system, George Fitzhugh, frankly described slavery as “traditional socialism” and bitterly contrasted the cruelty of free-market “cannibalism” with the cradle-to-grave welfare provided by the slave owner.

The Confederate government centralized political authority in ways that made a hash of states’ rights, nationalized industries in ways historians have compared to “state socialism,” and imposed the first compulsory national draft in American history. If Benioff and Weiss are successful in creating an alternative world in Confederate, it will shock us fully as much as Game of Thrones has — not for how much of the Confederate future we avoided, but how little.

Tell us more about this government that was created- and led by Christian white men?

The Holy Roman Empire? The British Empire? Napoleon's empire?

Apparently the Confederate empire......

The Confederacy wasn't an empire. Obviously it also wasn't the only one created by "Christian white men".

However the Confederacy was indeed a government created- and led- by Christian white men.

As was the Spanish Empire, France, English Empire, Germany and every nation in the Americas. What's your point?

 

[Rustic]

There are a lot of places this thread could have been placed, but the quote below places it squarely in political current events :

"how close the real Confederacy also came to the fantasies of the alt-left"

As Professor Guelzo's article points out, the social structure of the Confederacy was highly stratified and more closely resembles the elitism and socialism of the Left Wing. Maybe it's a good thing Lincoln
did invade the South in the War of Northern Aggression!


What if the South had won the Civil War? 4 sci-fi scenarios for HBO's 'Confederate'
A successful Confederacy would be a zero-sum economy. In the world of Confederate, the economy would be a hierarchy, with no social mobility, since mobility among economic classes would open the door to economic mobility across racial lines. At the top would be the elite slave-owning families, which owned not only assets but labor, and at the bottom, legally-enslaved African Americans, holding down most of the working-class jobs. There would be no middle class, apart from a thin stratum of professionals: doctors, clergy and lawyers. Beyond that would be only a vast reservoir of restless and unemployable whites, free but bribed into cooperation by Confederate government subsidies and racist propaganda.

Social media progressives are probably right to draw back in horror from the prospect offered by Confederate, although not always for the reasons they presume. The Confederate economy, like the modern Chinese economy, was in the capitalist world but not of it. The Confederate elite of 1861 did not mind making money, but it was aggressively hostile to entrepreneurship and contemptuous of middle-class culture. The most famous advocate of the slave system, George Fitzhugh, frankly described slavery as “traditional socialism” and bitterly contrasted the cruelty of free-market “cannibalism” with the cradle-to-grave welfare provided by the slave owner.

The Confederate government centralized political authority in ways that made a hash of states’ rights, nationalized industries in ways historians have compared to “state socialism,” and imposed the first compulsory national draft in American history. If Benioff and Weiss are successful in creating an alternative world in Confederate, it will shock us fully as much as Game of Thrones has — not for how much of the Confederate future we avoided, but how little.

Tell us more about this government that was created- and led by Christian white men?

The Holy Roman Empire? The British Empire? Napoleon's empire?

Apparently the Confederate empire......

The Confederacy wasn't an empire. Obviously it also wasn't the only one created by "Christian white men".

However the Confederacy was indeed a government created- and led- by Christian white men.

If they are racists... then they are not christians. Dumbass

 

[Rustic]

Do you want to actually have a discussion about what might have been or do you just want a bunch of people to just swallow your assumptions whole? I like discussing the civil war but only if I am not wasting time with someone who really does not know anything about it.

Progressives are racists

View attachment 143018

Says a progressive shitbag career politician.... lol

BTW, This is supposed to be a republic not a shit eating democracy

 

[deanrd]

Trust me, those same Alt Right people that do Nazi salutes to honor Donald Trump ARE the confederates.

They would be insulted you ever suggested otherwise.

This thing is kind of bizarre and I was really hoping OP would do some explaining but it seems he posted it and then went to bed.

I took a shower. Something you should do.

OK I get it now, you are just a history retard who found an article you thought was smart (it's retarded).

That.

 

[Divine Wind]

LOL That's what the Alt-Left is great at doing; name-calling, trolling and derailing, then congratulating each other on doing so.

Meanwhile, the Socialism of "modern liberals" coupled with Prof. Guelzo's historical knowledge of the CSA has caused me to rethink my own opinion of the CSA. Sure, I still think that, under the Constitution, they had a right to secede, I also think the socialist direction they were headed would have more closely resembled Venezuela and other "socialist utopias" rather than the nation our Founder's sought.

 

[Syriusly]

Do you want to actually have a discussion about what might have been or do you just want a bunch of people to just swallow your assumptions whole? I like discussing the civil war but only if I am not wasting time with someone who really does not know anything about it.

Progressives are racists

View attachment 143018

Says a progressive shitbag career politician.... lol

BTW, This is supposed to be a republic not a shit eating democracy

by the way- Teddy Roosevelt was a great believer in our Democratic Republic.

And a great President.

Conservatives have never forgiven him for breaking up the monopolies or for his conservation efforts that thwarted your desire to exploit every corner of our great country.

 

[Syriusly]

Tell us more about this government that was created- and led by Christian white men?

The Holy Roman Empire? The British Empire? Napoleon's empire?

Apparently the Confederate empire......

The Confederacy wasn't an empire. Obviously it also wasn't the only one created by "Christian white men".

However the Confederacy was indeed a government created- and led- by Christian white men.

If they are racists... then they are not christians. Dumbass

Like I said- Christian white men.

If racists can't be Christians- then there were virtually no Christians for most of the last 2,000 years. Since virtually every Christian society was composed of racists.

 

[Rustic]

The Holy Roman Empire? The British Empire? Napoleon's empire?

Apparently the Confederate empire......

The Confederacy wasn't an empire. Obviously it also wasn't the only one created by "Christian white men".

However the Confederacy was indeed a government created- and led- by Christian white men.

If they are racists... then they are not christians. Dumbass

Like I said- Christian white men.

If racists can't be Christians- then there were virtually no Christians for most of the last 2,000 years. Since virtually every Christian society was composed of racists.

 

[Divine Wind]

BTW the way- Teddy Roosevelt was a great believer in our Democratic Republic.

And a great President.

Conservatives have never forgiven him for breaking up the monopolies or for his conservation efforts that thwarted your desire to exploit every corner of our great country.

Agreed on Teddy.

Why do you say "Conservatives have never forgiven him for breaking up the monopolies or for his conservation efforts..."? Link?