How did the Universe get here?

[BobPlumb]

How can anyone verify a theory about how the universe came about?

 

[Boss]

When you present valid proof that there was no time, space or energy. These are all theories, none of which have been scientifically proven. A singularity is as valid a theory at this time as any of the bullshit you have pontificated.

You stated Singularity as if it's a known fact of Science. IT IS NOT! That was my only point. Now you are admitting it is a theory, which I have no problem with. As long as it's clarified, Singularity is NOT a fact.

Spacetime (space + time) is one of the four dimensional aspects of the universe. To argue that these existed BEFORE the physical universe existed is like saying your brain existed BEFORE your parents conceived you. It simply defies logic and reason.

BULLSHIT!

Everyone here has been discussing theory, except you who have been pontificating as if you were God.

Space/time is not ONE of the 4 dimensions, it is all 4, 3 of space and one of time. Now you will not admit you have no idea what you posted and instead claim that you were calling spacetime 4D all along.

No one is arguing your Straw Man no matter how many times you repeat it.
I have been arguing that energy has always existed and will always exist in the same total quantity and was existing compressed into an extremely small SPACE at the singularity when the universe was neither expanding nor contracting at t = 0. That is quite different from the bullshit Straw Man you have been arguing against, but you pretend you are too stupid to know the difference so you can continue to argue for the sake of arguing.

*YAWN* ...The Four Dimensions of our Universe: 1. Width 2. Height 3. Depth 4. Time (aka: Space-Time.) I have no idea where you get that I have called spacetime all 4 dimensions. I have repeatedly stated Space-time is one of the 4 dimensions of our universe. If you are too ignorant of science to know this, we need not carry our conversation any further. You need to go learn something about physical science first.

You have indeed argued that energy has always existed and will always exist in the same total quantity, and I agree... as long as a physical universe exists, this is true. The Singularity is a THEORY... you have NO EVIDENCE this theory is valid. NONE! Got it? If not, you need to go take a physical science course and educate yourself, no need for us to carry on further conversation. Stop insisting this THEORY is some kind of proven unassailable fact of fucking life that can't be questioned, it is NOT! IT IS A THEORY! Got it? I hope so!

Before the universe existed, it did not exist. You continue to argue that before the universe existed... it existed! And then, you are attempting to apply mathematical formulas and physics (which also did not exist) to a universe that did not exist yet. Sorry, but BEFORE the universe existed, nothing in it (including physical energy) existed. At least not PHYSICALLY! Now.... PERHAPS (THIS IS ALSO A THEORY) it existed in another form... Quantum energy, or Spiritual energy, or something we have no concept of at this time... I do not know this and neither do you, and neither does any scientist in the world. If they claim it, they are simply LYING! One thing is absolutely certain, it did not exist in physical form because that requires a physical universe.

Whether you like this or not, I will keep repeating it over and over again until you get tired of hearing it and move on, or you agree that the point is made. Doesn't matter to me in the least.

 

[edthecynic]

How can anyone verify a theory about how the universe came about?

Right now maybe not, but new data is always coming in from new supercolliders, new satellites, whatever, and so in the future it might be possible, only TIME will tell.

 

[sealybobo]

How can anyone verify a theory about how the universe came about?

Right now maybe not, but new data is always coming in from new supercolliders, new satellites, whatever, and so in the future it might be possible, only TIME will tell.

And because of science we are getting closer. No thanks to religion

Major Big Bang Discovery Brings 'Theory of Everything' a Bit Closer to Reality

 

[edthecynic]

You stated Singularity as if it's a known fact of Science. IT IS NOT! That was my only point. Now you are admitting it is a theory, which I have no problem with. As long as it's clarified, Singularity is NOT a fact.

Spacetime (space + time) is one of the four dimensional aspects of the universe. To argue that these existed BEFORE the physical universe existed is like saying your brain existed BEFORE your parents conceived you. It simply defies logic and reason.

BULLSHIT!

Everyone here has been discussing theory, except you who have been pontificating as if you were God.

Space/time is not ONE of the 4 dimensions, it is all 4, 3 of space and one of time. Now you will not admit you have no idea what you posted and instead claim that you were calling spacetime 4D all along.

No one is arguing your Straw Man no matter how many times you repeat it.
I have been arguing that energy has always existed and will always exist in the same total quantity and was existing compressed into an extremely small SPACE at the singularity when the universe was neither expanding nor contracting at t = 0. That is quite different from the bullshit Straw Man you have been arguing against, but you pretend you are too stupid to know the difference so you can continue to argue for the sake of arguing.

*YAWN* ...The Four Dimensions of our Universe: 1. Width 2. Height 3. Depth 4. Time (aka: Space-Time.) I have no idea where you get that I have called spacetime all 4 dimensions. I have repeatedly stated Space-time is one of the 4 dimensions of our universe. If you are too ignorant of science to know this, we need not carry our conversation any further. You need to go learn something about physical science first.

Did I call it or what!

Time is not (AKA: Space-Time).
Space-Time is NOT the 4th Dimension!!! TIME is the 4th Dimension. Space/Time is 3 dimensions of space and 1 dimension of time making 4 Dimensions total.

Spacetime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In physics, spacetime (also space–time, space time or space–time continuum) is any mathematical model that combines space and time into a single interwoven continuum. The spacetime of our universe is usually interpreted from a Euclidean space perspective, which regards space as consisting of three dimensions, and time as consisting of one dimension, the 'fourth dimension'. By combining space and time into a single manifold called Minkowski space, physicists have significantly simplified a large number of physical theories, as well as described in a more uniform way the workings of the universe at both the supergalactic and subatomic levels.

 

[Boss]

Nope, he was always in the present.

LOL... The only way we can experience time is in the present. If you go back in time, you still experience it as present. If you go forward in time, you still experience it as present. The people around you also experience time in the present. There is no other way for human beings to experience time except present. That does not mean your place it time remained the same.

According to Einstein, time is relative to the observer. In my scenario, the traveling twin's time is behind that of the stationary twin and he is in the future relative to his perception of time. The stationary twin's perception has not changed. Both experience time as present, there is no way for humans to experience time any other way. If we could do that, time travel is irrelevant, we'd just decide we want to experience the future or past time.

Look... think of it another way. Both twins have atomic clocks and digital calendars tracking their time. They both experience time passing the same. However, since the traveling twin's time slowed down as he traveled, when he returns, his calendar says it's 2012. The stationary twin's calendar says it's 2014. So is the traveling twin in 2014 or 2012? If he is in 2014, then he has traveled to the future. His perception, clock and calendar all say he is in 2012. Yes, both are experiencing time as "present" because that's the only way we can experience time.

His perception, clock and calendar all say he is in 2012

the traveler once landed fully knows

he shipped over time

his clock and calendar will be just like his

older brothers clock and calendar 2014

plus he sees his brother has aged

more then he has

You are essentially agreeing with me that he has traveled into the future. His perception is that he is in 2012, his calendar confirms this. He doesn't experience any change, his calendar and clock operate normally to him. However, he is not in 2012 because his twin is 2 years older and it's 2014. The fact they both experience time in the present is irrelevant because that is the ONLY way humans can ever perceive time.

 

[edthecynic]

LOL... The only way we can experience time is in the present. If you go back in time, you still experience it as present. If you go forward in time, you still experience it as present. The people around you also experience time in the present. There is no other way for human beings to experience time except present. That does not mean your place it time remained the same.

According to Einstein, time is relative to the observer. In my scenario, the traveling twin's time is behind that of the stationary twin and he is in the future relative to his perception of time. The stationary twin's perception has not changed. Both experience time as present, there is no way for humans to experience time any other way. If we could do that, time travel is irrelevant, we'd just decide we want to experience the future or past time.

Look... think of it another way. Both twins have atomic clocks and digital calendars tracking their time. They both experience time passing the same. However, since the traveling twin's time slowed down as he traveled, when he returns, his calendar says it's 2012. The stationary twin's calendar says it's 2014. So is the traveling twin in 2014 or 2012? If he is in 2014, then he has traveled to the future. His perception, clock and calendar all say he is in 2012. Yes, both are experiencing time as "present" because that's the only way we can experience time.

His perception, clock and calendar all say he is in 2012

the traveler once landed fully knows

he shipped over time

his clock and calendar will be just like his

older brothers clock and calendar 2014

plus he sees his brother has aged

more then he has

You are essentially agreeing with me that he has traveled into the future. His perception is that he is in 2012, his calendar confirms this. He doesn't experience any change, his calendar and clock operate normally to him. However, he is not in 2012 because his twin is 2 years older and it's 2014. The fact they both experience time in the present is irrelevant because that is the ONLY way humans can ever perceive time.

Time dilation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the theory of relativity, time dilation is an actual difference of elapsed time between two events as measured by observers either moving relative to each other or differently situated from gravitational masses.

An accurate clock at rest with respect to one observer may be measured to tick at a different rate when compared to a second observer's own equally accurate clocks. This effect arises neither from technical aspects of the clocks nor from the fact that signals need time to propagate, but from the nature of spacetime itself.

 

[Boss]

BULLSHIT!

Everyone here has been discussing theory, except you who have been pontificating as if you were God.

Space/time is not ONE of the 4 dimensions, it is all 4, 3 of space and one of time. Now you will not admit you have no idea what you posted and instead claim that you were calling spacetime 4D all along.

No one is arguing your Straw Man no matter how many times you repeat it.
I have been arguing that energy has always existed and will always exist in the same total quantity and was existing compressed into an extremely small SPACE at the singularity when the universe was neither expanding nor contracting at t = 0. That is quite different from the bullshit Straw Man you have been arguing against, but you pretend you are too stupid to know the difference so you can continue to argue for the sake of arguing.

*YAWN* ...The Four Dimensions of our Universe: 1. Width 2. Height 3. Depth 4. Time (aka: Space-Time.) I have no idea where you get that I have called spacetime all 4 dimensions. I have repeatedly stated Space-time is one of the 4 dimensions of our universe. If you are too ignorant of science to know this, we need not carry our conversation any further. You need to go learn something about physical science first.

Did I call it or what!

Time is not (AKA: Space-Time).
Space-Time is NOT the 4th Dimension!!! TIME is the 4th Dimension. Space/Time is 3 dimensions of space and 1 dimension of time making 4 Dimensions total.

Spacetime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In physics, spacetime (also space–time, space time or space–time continuum) is any mathematical model that combines space and time into a single interwoven continuum. The spacetime of our universe is usually interpreted from a Euclidean space perspective, which regards space as consisting of three dimensions, and time as consisting of one dimension, the 'fourth dimension'. By combining space and time into a single manifold called Minkowski space, physicists have significantly simplified a large number of physical theories, as well as described in a more uniform way the workings of the universe at both the supergalactic and subatomic levels.

You previously stated that Time was NOT a dimension. Now you are trying to morph my comments into that absurdity and claim you've bested me again. I am sick of your fucking games, mister. If you can't intellectually do battle with me, just give up. No need in this bizarre behavior where you make stupid comments and then try to pretend it was ME who made the stupid comments and you who refuted them. I get what you're up to... you are banking on the fact that most people are too lazy to wade through page after page of mindless drivel to find the truth, and you can somehow turn the tables around and make it appear you've presented valid points all along. You haven't. You've been a completely dishonest debater this entire thread.

Regardless of semantics, there are 4 dimensions OF the physical universe... NONE of them existed BEFORE the physical universe!

 

[Boss]

His perception, clock and calendar all say he is in 2012

the traveler once landed fully knows

he shipped over time

his clock and calendar will be just like his

older brothers clock and calendar 2014

plus he sees his brother has aged

more then he has

You are essentially agreeing with me that he has traveled into the future. His perception is that he is in 2012, his calendar confirms this. He doesn't experience any change, his calendar and clock operate normally to him. However, he is not in 2012 because his twin is 2 years older and it's 2014. The fact they both experience time in the present is irrelevant because that is the ONLY way humans can ever perceive time.

Time dilation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the theory of relativity, time dilation is an actual difference of elapsed time between two events as measured by observers either moving relative to each other or differently situated from gravitational masses.

An accurate clock at rest with respect to one observer may be measured to tick at a different rate when compared to a second observer's own equally accurate clocks. This effect arises neither from technical aspects of the clocks nor from the fact that signals need time to propagate, but from the nature of spacetime itself.

You are fucking MOVING IN TIME, dimwit! I don't know how clearer they can make it on Wikipedia! Dilation IS CHANGE! If time changes for one and not the other, then one has moved in time from the other. You can't change time but NOT change time! Again, you are being completely ILLOGICAL!

 

[Boss]

Ed I think you just fucking like to argue with people, even when you have nothing to argue about.

 

[Boss]

How can anyone verify a theory about how the universe came about?

No one can. Stephen Hawking says we will probably never be able to. But that does not seem to phase people like eddy and silly boob, as they present their various theories as if they are proven conclusive facts. These are people who have adopted a faith-based religion in science and use it to replace their spirituality.

 

[edthecynic]

*YAWN* ...The Four Dimensions of our Universe: 1. Width 2. Height 3. Depth 4. Time (aka: Space-Time.) I have no idea where you get that I have called spacetime all 4 dimensions. I have repeatedly stated Space-time is one of the 4 dimensions of our universe. If you are too ignorant of science to know this, we need not carry our conversation any further. You need to go learn something about physical science first.

Did I call it or what!

Time is not (AKA: Space-Time).
Space-Time is NOT the 4th Dimension!!! TIME is the 4th Dimension. Space/Time is 3 dimensions of space and 1 dimension of time making 4 Dimensions total.

Spacetime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In physics, spacetime (also space–time, space time or space–time continuum) is any mathematical model that combines space and time into a single interwoven continuum. The spacetime of our universe is usually interpreted from a Euclidean space perspective, which regards space as consisting of three dimensions, and time as consisting of one dimension, the 'fourth dimension'. By combining space and time into a single manifold called Minkowski space, physicists have significantly simplified a large number of physical theories, as well as described in a more uniform way the workings of the universe at both the supergalactic and subatomic levels.

You previously stated that Time was NOT a dimension. Now you are trying to morph my comments into that absurdity and claim you've bested me again. I am sick of your fucking games, mister. If you can't intellectually do battle with me, just give up. No need in this bizarre behavior where you make stupid comments and then try to pretend it was ME who made the stupid comments and you who refuted them. I get what you're up to... you are banking on the fact that most people are too lazy to wade through page after page of mindless drivel to find the truth, and you can somehow turn the tables around and make it appear you've presented valid points all along. You haven't. You've been a completely dishonest debater this entire thread.

Regardless of semantics, there are 4 dimensions OF the physical universe... NONE of them existed BEFORE the physical universe!

That is partly right, but not fully right. I said there are still 4 Dimensions, but OF SPACE and time is a mathematical device for the numerical order of events. If you are going to cite me, please cite me in context.

 

[edthecynic]

You are essentially agreeing with me that he has traveled into the future. His perception is that he is in 2012, his calendar confirms this. He doesn't experience any change, his calendar and clock operate normally to him. However, he is not in 2012 because his twin is 2 years older and it's 2014. The fact they both experience time in the present is irrelevant because that is the ONLY way humans can ever perceive time.

Time dilation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the theory of relativity, time dilation is an actual difference of elapsed time between two events as measured by observers either moving relative to each other or differently situated from gravitational masses.

An accurate clock at rest with respect to one observer may be measured to tick at a different rate when compared to a second observer's own equally accurate clocks. This effect arises neither from technical aspects of the clocks nor from the fact that signals need time to propagate, but from the nature of spacetime itself.

You are fucking MOVING IN TIME, dimwit! I don't know how clearer they can make it on Wikipedia! Dilation IS CHANGE! If time changes for one and not the other, then one has moved in time from the other. You can't change time but NOT change time! Again, you are being completely ILLOGICAL!

That is one THEORY, But there are problems with that THEORY.

A better theory that scientists are using now says there are 4 dimensions of space, and we move through space only and time is the numerical order of the movement. I have told you this several times already!

Scientists suggest spacetime has no time dimension

No time dimension
They begin by explaining how we usually assume that time is an absolute physical quantity that plays the role of the independent variable (time, t, is often the x-axis on graphs that show the evolution of a physical system). But, as they note, we never really measure t. What we do measure is an object’s frequency, speed, etc. In other words, what experimentally exists are the motion of an object and the tick of a clock, and we compare the object’s motion to the tick of a clock to measure the object’s frequency, speed, etc. By itself, t has only a mathematical value, and no primary physical existence.
This view doesn’t mean that time does not exist, but that time has more to do with space than with the idea of an absolute time. So while 4D spacetime is usually considered to consist of three dimensions of space and one dimension of time, the researchers’ view suggests that it’s more correct to imagine spacetime as four dimensions of space. In other words, as they say, the universe is “timeless.”
“Minkowski space is not 3D + T, it is 4D,” the scientists write in their most recent paper. “The point of view which considers time to be a physical entity in which material changes occur is here replaced with a more convenient view of time being merely the numerical order of material change. This view corresponds better to the physical world and has more explanatory power in describing immediate physical phenomena: gravity, electrostatic interaction, information transfer by EPR experiment are physical phenomena carried directly by the space in which physical phenomena occur.”
As the scientists added, the roots of this idea come from Einstein himself.
“Einstein said, ‘Time has no independent existence apart from the order of events by which we measure it,’” Sorli told PhysOrg.com. “Time is exactly the order of events: this is my conclusion.”

snip/

As the researchers explain, without using time as the fourth dimension of spacetime, the physical world can be described more accurately. As physicist Enrico Prati noted in a recent study, Hamiltonian dynamics (equations in classical mechanics) is robustly well-defined without the concept of absolute time. Other scientists have pointed out that the mathematical model of spacetime does not correspond to physical reality, and propose that a timeless “state space” provides a more accurate framework.
The scientists also investigated the falsifiability of the two notions of time. The concept of time as the fourth dimension of space - as a fundamental physical entity in which an experiment occurs - can be falsified by an experiment in which time does not exist, according to the scientists. An example of an experiment in which time is not present as a fundamental entity is the Coulomb experiment; mathematically, this experiment takes place only in space. On the other hand, in the concept of time as a numerical order of change taking place in space, space is the fundamental physical entity in which a given experiment occurs. Although this concept could be falsified by an experiment in which time (measured by clocks) is not the numerical order of material change, such an experiment is not yet known.
“Newton theory on absolute time is not falsifiable, you cannot prove it or disprove it, you have to believe in it,” Sorli said. “The theory of time as the fourth dimension of space is falsifiable and in our last article we prove there are strong indications that it might be wrong. On the basis of experimental data, time is what we measure with clocks: with clocks we measure the numerical order of material change, i.e., motion in space.”

snip/

The researchers also briefly examine how this new view of time fits with how we intuitively perceive time. Many neurological studies have confirmed that we do have a sense of past, present, and future. This evidence has led to the proposal that the brain represents time with an internal “clock” that emits neural ticks (the “pacemaker-accumulator” model). However, some recent studies have challenged this traditional view, and suggest that the brain represents time in a spatially distributed way, by detecting the activation of different neural populations. Although we perceive events as occurring in the past, present, or future, these concepts may just be part of a psychological frame in which we experience material changes in space.
Finally, the researchers explain that this view of time does not look encouraging for time travelers.
“In our view, time travel into the past and future are not possible,” Sorli said. “One can travel in space only, and time is a numerical order of his motion.”

 

[edthecynic]

How can anyone verify a theory about how the universe came about?

No one can. Stephen Hawking says we will probably never be able to. But that does not seem to phase people like eddy and silly boob, as they present their various theories as if they are proven conclusive facts. These are people who have adopted a faith-based religion in science and use it to replace their spirituality.

You are a pathological liar. I have made it clear that I am presenting theories all along, it is YOU who do nothing but PONTIFICATE. I happen to think the theories I presented fit reality better than your pontificated THEORIES, but there still is not enough data to settle it at this time, which I have also made clear. You on the other hand, claim because the theories I presented are not as broadly accepted as your pontificated THEORIES, mine are "debunked" which you have claimed repeatedly, and yours are gospel.

 

[Kooshdakhaa]

How did the Universe (i.e. everything that exists) get here?

And if you believe there are multiple universes, then how did the Multiverse get here?

We know the Universe wasn't always here, and will end sometime in the future.

How did everything begin, and what happens after the end?

I'm looking for an answer from those of you who say God definitely does not exist.

Have you read "A Universe from Nothing" by Lawrence Krauss? He deals with that question in that book. That would be a good starting point. I read it, didn't understand half of what i was reading but I got through and can kind of grasp how the Universe may have appeared out of seemingly nothing.

Don't see how that disproves the existence of God, though. I mean after all, he is purported to have created the heavens and the earth. which means they didn't exist at all before He created them. So when the Universe appeared out of seemingly nothing, which Krauss argues COULD happen, well, that kind of supports the idea that God created the heavens and earth, as far as I'm concerned. It explains the "mechanics" of what went on when God decided to start creating.


This is not a topic that can easily be addressed on a forum like this. The "physics" of it is pretty damn complex.

I'm like Albert Einstein, by the way...agnostic. I don't pretend to KNOW one way or the other. I wish I KNEW God existed, it would make life a lot easier. But I think that's maybe why we can't KNOW...because life isn't supposed to be easy, we're here to learn something and if we all knew we were gonna die and then just continue on in another dimension or plane of existence and be okay...well, I don't think we'd learn too much.

 

[Boss]

You are a pathological liar. I have made it clear that I am presenting theories all along, it is YOU who do nothing but PONTIFICATE.

BULLSHIT!

There are no conditions when the universe of energy did not exist. There was a singularity when for a moment there was no motion and for that moment, t = 0, time did not exist, but for that moment all the energy in the universe existed compressed into one small space.

I have made it clear that I am presenting theories all along...

Please show me in the above post, where you articulated this as a theory? Where anything you said was framed as THEORY and not FACT?

 

[Boss]

“In our view, time travel into the past and future are not possible,” Sorli said.

Dr. Stephen Hawking disagrees.

 

[Mr. H.]

I say we quit troubling ourselves with minor details and get on with more important things.

 

[BobPlumb]

How can anyone verify a theory about how the universe came about?

Right now maybe not, but new data is always coming in from new supercolliders, new satellites, whatever, and so in the future it might be possible, only TIME will tell.

I would not reconmend replicating the orgin of the universe as a means of verification.

The best we can do is to develop a theory that cannot be proven false.

 

[edthecynic]

I'm not sure I can take your word for it. The theory of relativity is, for all intents and purposes, set in stone. Theories that the universe is finite, however, is still being debated, isn't it?

I don't believe that a finite universe or an infinite one disproves the existence of God, though.

Well, you can just Google it yourself, I'm not stopping you. I don't believe there's one single astronomer who believes the universe is infinite.

There are actually two theories of an infinite universe, one that claims the universe will expand forever, the most accepted of all the theories infinite or otherwise, and the cyclic theory of a never ending cycle from Big Bang to Big Crunch and over again.

You are a pathological liar. I have made it clear that I am presenting theories all along, it is YOU who do nothing but PONTIFICATE.

BULLSHIT!

There are no conditions when the universe of energy did not exist. There was a singularity when for a moment there was no motion and for that moment, t = 0, time did not exist, but for that moment all the energy in the universe existed compressed into one small space.

I have made it clear that I am presenting theories all along...

Please show me in the above post, where you articulated this as a theory? Where anything you said was framed as THEORY and not FACT?

Above is my first post in this thread, you worthless lying POS. Stop taking my shit out of context!