How did the Universe get here?

[AVG-JOE]

EVERYthing is just a string of chemicals.

EVERYTHING is just a string of things we have defined stuff as. BRILLIANT!

Hey... Got another one for ya... No matter where you go, there you are!

​

Now you're getting it!

 

[emilynghiem]

So you have conceded that you have zero proof that your mythical God actually exists. Have a nice day.

Boss, Derideo_Te, Montrovant,

Yes, and Goedel's proof was already cited as backing the principle
that whatever God means can neither be proven nor disproven
(because man is finite and so are our proofs, while God is used to represent something infinite;
what is finite cannot contain something infinite, so this limitation is a given.
we can only represent using symbols, or reflect patterns/relationships, but cannot prove it.)

Just because people "anthropomorphically personify" forces in the world
as a God/Jesus figure does not mean the CONCEPTS/PRINCIPLES
DON'T exist; by nature of the abstract level of what God/Jesus represents,
these are Faith-based concepts that we communicate about by AGREEMENT
on what we are referring to.

We can just as easily refer to God/God's laws as Truth, Life, Wisdom, Nature, Love.
We can just as easily refer to what Christianity stands for as Charity,
being Christian as being Conscionable, and Jesus as either Justice (for secular laws)
or as Justice with Mercy or Salvation for spiritual laws.

These concepts cannot be "proven."
We can at least or at most AGREE what we mean by Truth and Justice,
even though these principles remain abstract and "faith based."

Same with proving God/Jesus as a symbol of these on a Universal absolute scale.

 

[Boss]

Boy you really are a primitive man. 20,000 years ago when lightening or thunder struck primitive man didn't know science and they thought thunder and lightening were god(s). We have long put those thoughts behind us but clearly from your question you have not.

It is as if science doesn't exist despite all the proof around you. But god does exist despite all the lack of proof. You are truly an ignorant close minded simpleton.

But I don't get the feeling you really believe the shit you say. You'll argue despite the fact that you have no argument. Perfect example was when you tried to prove to me my mom doesn't exist. Yea, that's exactly like you not being able to prove your god exists. Fucking idiot.

Well, let's examine this phenomenon we call "lightning" for a moment. Can you explain why the phenomenon exists in our universe? Not how it happens, but why it happens? What causes some atoms to become electrically charged while others are not? Again.. not how it happens but why? There is a force called "electromagnetism" and through this force, phenomenon such as lightning is enabled. Why does this electromagnetic force exist? Why do weak and strong nuclear forces exist? Why does gravity exist?

I think I have a very GOOD argument, and you can't refute it with science. That leads to frustration on your part, and so you go on the attack and start calling names and questioning my intelligence. The fact remains, you have not refuted the argument and you can't. No one can. Science is a great and wonderful tool for us to learn and know about how things work in our universe, but the questions of WHY they work are a mystery. You assume that because we know HOW things work, we can simply dismiss WHY they work.

Your "answer" to the question of "WHY" is to anthropomorphize some imaginary deity and pretend that it was the "purpose" of your imaginary deity.

But your "answer" falls flat on it's stupid face when your "answer" is logically and rationally turned around on you.

When you are asked "WHY did your imaginary deity 'create' the Universe" you can only shrug and point at your imaginary deity and claim that it "KNOWS WHY".

Which is the typical circular argument of all theists like yourself and "WHY" you have zero credibility amongst rational and clear thinking adults in the room.

I can't help but notice you didn't answer the question. Now, I don't know anything about deities. My God is not a theological construction. I can't tell you why God created the universe because I don't know. I can't tell why God created gravity or energy, I don't know. Is there a "purpose" to all of it? Not sure, it seems there should be, that seems logical doesn't it?

If there is a "purpose" I sincerely doubt it is to mute human spiritual connection. Seems like we must've been given this attribute for a reason. Maybe we're a metaphysical experiment of some kind? Physical cells responding to stimuli in a gigantic cosmic petri dish? To be honest, I am humbled in the presence of that which I don't know. Others seem to be responding with arrogance and hubris, refusing to accept what they don't know. Perhaps this is perplexing to the Cosmic Scientist, or maybe it is completely predictable and anticipated?

 

[emilynghiem]

It is also "scientific" to say you MIGHT flip a quarter 1000 times and have it land heads up every time.



Just call me "unscientific" but I don't think you can do it any more than god exists...

HUGGY, the equivalent of God's laws and flipping a coin would be more like this:
The outcome of flipping a coin is ALWAYS going to be what ends up coming out.

So if you flip a coin and get heads, that was "meant to be" - it was already written in the script of life to come out that way.

If you flip a coin and get heads, that was "meant to be."

If you flip a coin and it falls off the table into a crack in the floor that was meant to be.
If you flip a coin, flip off your neighbor and get punched in the jaw over the wager,
that was meant to be, etc.

We can never "prove" something already determined the outcome was "meant to be a certain way."

But as long as we define "God's supreme will" as "always coming out as what happens anyway" then it is 100% absolutely = to what happens in life, every step of the process.

[So if there is evolution, free will and random events going on, all that is also programmed into the script and meant to happen that way as part of the creative life process, too.
If you are going to believe in God's will as supreme and consistently in charge of everything, that is what you are looking at. So of course people struggle with the infinite level this would mean.]

 

[Montrovant]

Well, let's examine this phenomenon we call "lightning" for a moment. Can you explain why the phenomenon exists in our universe? Not how it happens, but why it happens? What causes some atoms to become electrically charged while others are not? Again.. not how it happens but why? There is a force called "electromagnetism" and through this force, phenomenon such as lightning is enabled. Why does this electromagnetic force exist? Why do weak and strong nuclear forces exist? Why does gravity exist?

I think I have a very GOOD argument, and you can't refute it with science. That leads to frustration on your part, and so you go on the attack and start calling names and questioning my intelligence. The fact remains, you have not refuted the argument and you can't. No one can. Science is a great and wonderful tool for us to learn and know about how things work in our universe, but the questions of WHY they work are a mystery. You assume that because we know HOW things work, we can simply dismiss WHY they work.

Your "answer" to the question of "WHY" is to anthropomorphize some imaginary deity and pretend that it was the "purpose" of your imaginary deity.

But your "answer" falls flat on it's stupid face when your "answer" is logically and rationally turned around on you.

When you are asked "WHY did your imaginary deity 'create' the Universe" you can only shrug and point at your imaginary deity and claim that it "KNOWS WHY".

Which is the typical circular argument of all theists like yourself and "WHY" you have zero credibility amongst rational and clear thinking adults in the room.

I can't help but notice you didn't answer the question. Now, I don't know anything about deities. My God is not a theological construction. I can't tell you why God created the universe because I don't know. I can't tell why God created gravity or energy, I don't know. Is there a "purpose" to all of it? Not sure, it seems there should be, that seems logical doesn't it?

If there is a "purpose" I sincerely doubt it is to mute human spiritual connection. Seems like we must've been given this attribute for a reason. Maybe we're a metaphysical experiment of some kind? Physical cells responding to stimuli in a gigantic cosmic petri dish? To be honest, I am humbled in the presence of that which I don't know. Others seem to be responding with arrogance and hubris, refusing to accept what they don't know. Perhaps this is perplexing to the Cosmic Scientist, or maybe it is completely predictable and anticipated?

While certainly there has been some of that from those who do not believe, can you see how it seems like arrogance and hubris to say that you understand something as vast and complex and outside of human perception as god? To say that you know things about god without any scientific evidence, or even any physical evidence at all? To say that you understand god in ways that few if any other people do?

To those of us who simply do not know one way or another, surety of any sort about god, the origins of the universe or life, etc. can certainly appear to be arrogance and hubris.

 

[emilynghiem]

There IS one way for proof of God to be found. One and only one...

God could prove Himself.​

I think I'd go with pillars of fire blocking all of the abortion clinics and gay bars, but I'm probably more cynical than God. Ass-U-Me-ing God IS, that is.

​

AVG-JOE,
I agree with this, and believe this is happening.
1. each person comes to terms with their own understanding of the EQUIVALENT of what "God" or "life forces" means to them from what they naturally believe and perceive in the world as Nature
2. we align with each other's approaches and perceptions (and terms) since nobody's views are the same
3. we still take it on "faith" that we are all aligning on the same concepts, since it cannot literally be proven that all our perceptions are coming from or pointing to the 'same source'

so even the "proof" relies on "faith" we are all talking about the same things when we talk about God/Universal Truth about laws and life in the world, or when we establish what is Justice and Peace and reach an agreement this spirit of humanity is what "Jesus" and the process in the Bible represents.

since the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, the process is not going to come from man but a higher level collectively. so yes, I agree if you call this coming from higher spiritual or collective level, that is the equivalent of coming from God and not from man.

 

[emilynghiem]

There is no clock without a clockmaker.

Think about this.

You have a pile of oddly shaped pebbles and a set of weighing scales.

How long would it take to take the pile, split it up, and achieve balance.

Yet, look at the balance around us.

Should not one variable run a muck and ruin the equation?

But it doesn't...the system is set up in a way that it cannot.

Is this the result of random chance? I think not.

If you can prove that, you win.

Survival of the most fit in a dog-eat-dog world sure fits the historical evidence better than the ancient stories of a God with a plan, but that's just one humble opinion among many regarding an unprovable subject.

Statistically at least, all human speculations on origins, after-life and God, both ancient and modern, have equal odds of being correct, historical and other evidence be damned.

The good news is that we all get to weigh the evidence and decide for ourselves, and NObody can take that away.​

Missourian, AVG-JOE,
Yes and no.
1. We COULD come to an agreement there are built in Universal Laws about Justice/Cause and Effect in the world
2. No, this isn't something we can definitely "prove" as these laws are greater than our finite language perceptions and proof; we could study and measure patterns to show a relationship, but like a theory, cannot prove these laws will continue immutably, that's all faith based
3. and NO it does not require believing in a personified Creator.
There are many people who are just as content to believe in "intelligent design"
and the whole system itself could be "self existent" with NO beginning or NO end
and just is and always has been in operation. That is totally possible

What is the common factor in the process (regardless if we personify God or just see the whole universe and its laws as impersonal) is "forgiving our differences" so our emotions do not get in the way of our words and our judgment in understanding each other's perceptions.

Again we do NOT need to "personify" this global forgiveness/healing of relationships in terms of a "personified Jesus curing the sins of the world". I have an atheist friend who teaches the SAME concept of free grace in life WITHOUT calling it God or Jesus.
And the process still works the same way, forgiving what we cannot change, and working with people and resources and opportunities/relations in life the best we can to make the most in life. And it comes out the same as what Christians teach using the Bible or Buddhists teach using natural laws and wisdom about human spirituality and interrelations with everything else in life and in the world. The Jesus/God connection represents all humanity coming to unity by conscience so there is universal peace and justice restored.
So yes that takes "divine forgiveness" that is greater than our individual will but happens on a global scale beyond what any of us can accomplish or will on our own. it takes everyone.

 

[GISMYS]

There is no clock without a clockmaker.

Think about this.

You have a pile of oddly shaped pebbles and a set of weighing scales.

How long would it take to take the pile, split it up, and achieve balance.

Yet, look at the balance around us.

Should not one variable run a muck and ruin the equation?

But it doesn't...the system is set up in a way that it cannot.

Is this the result of random chance? I think not.

If you can prove that, you win.

Survival of the most fit in a dog-eat-dog world sure fits the historical evidence better than the ancient stories of a God with a plan, but that's just one humble opinion among many regarding an unprovable subject.

Statistically at least, all human speculations on origins, after-life and God, both ancient and modern, have equal odds of being correct, historical and other evidence be damned.

The good news is that we all get to weigh the evidence and decide for ourselves, and NObody can take that away.​

[MENTION=11800]Missourian[/MENTION] [MENTION=9429]AVG-JOE[/MENTION]
Yes and no.
1. We COULD come to an agreement there are built in Universal Laws about Justice/Cause and Effect in the world
2. No, this isn't something we can definitely "prove" as these laws are greater than our finite language perceptions and proof; we could study and measure patterns to show a relationship, but like a theory, cannot prove these laws will continue immutably, that's all faith based
3. and NO it does not require believing in a personified Creator.
There are many people who are just as content to believe in "intelligent design"
and the whole system itself could be "self existent" with NO beginning or NO end
and just is and always has been in operation. That is totally possible

What is the common factor in the process (regardless if we personify God or just see the whole universe and its laws as impersonal) is "forgiving our differences" so our emotions do not get in the way of our words and our judgment in understanding each other's perceptions.

Again we do NOT need to "personify" this global forgiveness/healing of relationships in terms of a "personified Jesus curing the sins of the world". I have an atheist friend who teaches the SAME concept of free grace in life WITHOUT calling it God or Jesus.
And the process still works the same way, forgiving what we cannot change, and working with people and resources and opportunities/relations in life the best we can to make the most in life. And it comes out the same as what Christians teach using the Bible or Buddhists teach using natural laws and wisdom about human spirituality and interrelations with everything else in life and in the world. The Jesus/God connection represents all humanity coming to unity by conscience so there is universal peace and justice restored.
So yes that takes "divine forgiveness" that is greater than our individual will but happens on a global scale beyond what any of us can accomplish or will on our own. it takes everyone.

BEWARE!!! BEWARNED!!! YOU ARE DENYING THE TRUTH OF GOD'S HOLY INSPIRED(GOD BREATHED)WORD!! ==Jesus the Light of the World
…23And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." John 8:23-24

 

[itfitzme]

There is no clock without a clockmaker.

Think about this.

And if you bury a clock in the ground, it won't grow into a clock tree.

Think about this.

 

[emilynghiem]

Spiritual means no proof, which makes spiritual nothing but fartsmoke. You can't prove that it's anything other than fartsmoke.

No, Billybob, that's NOT what spiritual means. It IS what spiritual means to you, and thanks for clarifying that. It confirms what a closed-minded idiot you really are on this topic. Now that this has been established, we can dismiss any further musings from you on the subject.

If we should ignore people who use their own definitions for words, no one would listen to you.

Yes Montrovant, BillyP,
Since everyone has their own terms of how we see life,
it seems wiser and more expedient/amenable to
"respect our neighbors as we wish to be respected"
and let each use their OWN terms and be okay with that.

[MENTION=36773]Boss[/MENTION] I am perfectly okay with a nontheist speaking of natural laws and order,
or even "intelligent design" without introducing or depending on a particular
source creator or personified deity creating it all.

That is NOT necessary to agree on that
to enjoy and apply all the universal laws that exist and affect us
REGARDLESS if these had a finite beginning or they "always existed"

I am perfectly fine with some people interpreting the timeline in the Bible
different ways, such as
* when humanity became self-aware (so the creation of man represents
the point in time where humans developed/evolved to be conscious of free will
and connection with past and future generations)
* when just the Hebrew lineage under Biblical/Mosaic laws began as a spiritual tribe
* when "all humanity" was created in 6,000 years (although I prefer
to interpret these as 6 eras or "days' and in "ages" or in long epochs of time and not literally 1000 years)

Whatever system someone has, I just ALIGN our parallel terms for
the stages in life and the changes between stages.

Some people only see the stages in their personal life, this lifetime only.
Others see collectively for society and the world, and that process of peace and justice.
Some see the bigger picture over all history and how these cycles repeat per culture.

Nobody has to see it the same way to align where we follow the same patterns.
We don't have to agree on the starting point.

We just have to agree what is the best approach to dealing with change
and growth in the here and now. So if our neighbors have different language
for the laws and process in life, what words DO they use? what concepts DO
they value and follow in life? We can align and talk about that, on a very
spiritual level, and not even call it the same words like spiritual.

It's still the same process, whatever terms we use.
If anything, we are learning to respect each other's terms for similar things.

Thanks for pushing for a unified understanding.
When we get there, I assume we will each keep the same terms we
used going into this conversation; and what will change is our perception
that this is not in conflict, but the different ways are complementary and
necessary in order to serve good purpose in life we couldn't do if we were all the same.

 

[emilynghiem]

BEWARE!!! BEWARNED!!! YOU ARE DENYING THE TRUTH OF GOD'S HOLY INSPIRED(GOD BREATHED)WORD!! ==Jesus the Light of the World
…23And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." John 8:23-24

HI [MENTION=42952]GISMYS[/MENTION]
BE WARNED of your own self-warning.
Jesus said very clearly of the Gentiles he governs them as a distinct fold of the same flock.

BEWARE not to deny the Gentiles under natural laws as equally governed by JUSTICE which is JESUS.

GISMYS do you believe that Jesus means Justice for all humanity?
Do you dare deny that the Spirit of Justice does not speak to gentiles through natural laws that God created for this purpose?

If God is in charge of all things, and Jesus is authority over all laws, then that INCLUDES the secular Gentiles under natural laws. Do not deny these and thus deny that Jesus is divine authority over all.

 

[Boss]

Your "answer" to the question of "WHY" is to anthropomorphize some imaginary deity and pretend that it was the "purpose" of your imaginary deity.

But your "answer" falls flat on it's stupid face when your "answer" is logically and rationally turned around on you.

When you are asked "WHY did your imaginary deity 'create' the Universe" you can only shrug and point at your imaginary deity and claim that it "KNOWS WHY".

Which is the typical circular argument of all theists like yourself and "WHY" you have zero credibility amongst rational and clear thinking adults in the room.

I can't help but notice you didn't answer the question. Now, I don't know anything about deities. My God is not a theological construction. I can't tell you why God created the universe because I don't know. I can't tell why God created gravity or energy, I don't know. Is there a "purpose" to all of it? Not sure, it seems there should be, that seems logical doesn't it?

If there is a "purpose" I sincerely doubt it is to mute human spiritual connection. Seems like we must've been given this attribute for a reason. Maybe we're a metaphysical experiment of some kind? Physical cells responding to stimuli in a gigantic cosmic petri dish? To be honest, I am humbled in the presence of that which I don't know. Others seem to be responding with arrogance and hubris, refusing to accept what they don't know. Perhaps this is perplexing to the Cosmic Scientist, or maybe it is completely predictable and anticipated?

While certainly there has been some of that from those who do not believe, can you see how it seems like arrogance and hubris to say that you understand something as vast and complex and outside of human perception as god? To say that you know things about god without any scientific evidence, or even any physical evidence at all? To say that you understand god in ways that few if any other people do?

To those of us who simply do not know one way or another, surety of any sort about god, the origins of the universe or life, etc. can certainly appear to be arrogance and hubris.

To say that you know things about god without any scientific evidence, or even any physical evidence at all?

Why is it we keep having to go through this? God is not a physical entity. Science deals with the physical universe, not spiritual entities. Physical evidence exists for the physical, not for the spiritual. In order to evaluate that which is spiritual, you must be willing to observe spiritual evidence. There may very well be physical evidence for God, we can't understand it as that because God isn't physical. We assume physical evidence explains physical things. Physical science can't examine the spiritual so there is no way for science to evaluate any connection between the two. This is kind of like saying... There is no such thing as fish because no bird watcher has ever observed a fish, and we see no evidence of fish in the sky! Well, of course you don't, fish don't fly! You're looking in the wrong place, you'll never find evidence for fish by looking in the sky! In order to find evidence for fish, you have to look under the water where fish live. If you're not willing to look there, or if you refuse to believe something can live under the water, then you'll never find the evidence.

...can you see how it seems like arrogance and hubris to say that you understand something as vast and complex and outside of human perception as god?

I suppose I can, but I've said before, I am at a distinct advantage here. I know that I am connecting with something spiritual each day. There is no question in my mind, I have no doubts whatsoever. It's not simply blind faith or imagination, it's a real connection with something that can only be defined as spiritual. Should I suspend what I know for a fact, in order to appear aloof and unsure? Sorry, I can't do that.

Is there ANY doubt in your mind that you are on the Internet connecting to other people? Is there a possibility that you are simply imagining all of this? USMB is a figment of your imagination and something you dreamed up to cope with fears? None of us are real, we're just mythical fantasy you've created? Of course you don't think that, but you've never met me in person, you have no scientific evidence I exist. Still, you have awareness from your experience here, you intuitively know that there is a person on the other side typing these words and they aren't just appearing because you willed them to do so. Well... the same can be said for me and my connection to a spiritual God. I have no doubt in my mind the God I connect to is real and does exist as Spiritual Energy. I gain benefits from it, I gain knowledge and wisdom, courage and strength. I can't suspend my knowing that in order to make others feel more comfortable in their disbelief. Sorry!

 

[BillyP]

God is so powerful it can't even make everyone believe in it.

 

[GISMYS]

BEWARE!!! BEWARNED!!! YOU ARE DENYING THE TRUTH OF GOD'S HOLY INSPIRED(GOD BREATHED)WORD!! ==Jesus the Light of the World
…23And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." John 8:23-24

HI [MENTION=42952]GISMYS[/MENTION]
BE WARNED of your own self-warning.
Jesus said very clearly of the Gentiles he governs them as a distinct fold of the same flock.

BEWARE not to deny the Gentiles under natural laws as equally governed by JUSTICE which is JESUS.

GISMYS do you believe that Jesus means Justice for all humanity?
Do you dare deny that the Spirit of Justice does not speak to gentiles through natural laws that God created for this purpose?

If God is in charge of all things, and Jesus is authority over all laws, then that INCLUDES the secular Gentiles under natural laws. Do not deny these and thus deny that Jesus is divine authority over all.

Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. 7 If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is.From now on, you do know him and have seen him!”

◄ John 8:24 ►
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins."
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.==John 14:6 DO YOU UNDERSTAND "NO ONE"???

 

[PostmodernProph]

Who made god? Or are you suggesting with a straight face that he happened without direction?

why do you think God had to happen?......

Because you believe that your God had to "make" the Universe!

You can't have it both ways.

well actually, I can have that both ways because they are different things.....science tells us that our universe has a beginning....does science tell us God had a beginning?.....

 

[percysunshine]

How did the Universe get here?

It cheated on the entrance exams.

.

 

[GISMYS]

why do you think God had to happen?......

Because you believe that your God had to "make" the Universe!

You can't have it both ways.

well actually, I can have that both ways because they are different things.....science tells us that our universe has a beginning....does science tell us God had a beginning?.....

your thinking is soooooooooooo small!! THERE WAS NEVER A TIME WHEN GOD WAS NOT! GOD IS OUTSIDE OUR TIME!!!

 

[emilynghiem]

Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. 7 If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is.From now on, you do know him and have seen him!”

◄ John 8:24 ►
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins."
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.==John 14:6 DO YOU UNDERSTAND "NO ONE"???

YES [MENTION=42952]GISMYS[/MENTION]
And the way Gentiles seek truth/God is by Justice which is the same as Jesus represents.

So where is the conflict?

Everyone here seeks Truth by establishing what is just or not just, by conscience.
So when we reach agreement/understanding in Christ or by conscience,
then we establish God's/Universal Truth. So this is the same process
as finding the Truth that sets us all free!

GISMYS if you question or doubt that Jesus is in charge of this process,
that is your fear and faith issues you are projecting onto others. They have their own issues, trying to figure out how can this be the same process, and do not need you to deal with theirs if you are not even addressing your own first.

So again "remove the beam from your own eye first, and then you can see better how to help your neighbor" Thank you, GISMYS, this is not to discourage you in any way, but to SUPPORT you in succeeding in resolving all your issues and focusing there so you can be an even better witness to others struggling to come to terms with this same process. Amen!

 

[Derideo_Te]

why do you think God had to happen?......

Because you believe that your God had to "make" the Universe!

You can't have it both ways.

well actually, I can have that both ways because they are different things.....science tells us that our universe has a beginning....does science tell us God had a beginning?.....

The scientific process has never turned up a single shred of evidence for the existence of your imaginary God. Therefore it is illogical to expect it to find a "beginning" for something that does not exist.

 

[emilynghiem]

God is so powerful it can't even make everyone believe in it.

God/Life is so powerful, it goes on whether we believe or understand how Life works or not.
So no, it does not require us to believe in order to follow its own laws and keeping operating.

If we understand the laws of gravity, we can better make use of them to achieve goals.
But gravity works, whether or not we believe or understand its laws.
We can still use gravity/friction to "walk across the floor," even if we believe
the world is flat, the sun revolves around the earth, or the world is coming to an end.

The way I see people argue over how it works:
one person points to how books keep sliding off a shelf;
and other points to how books stay on the shelf and don't fly up or fall down but sit level.

So they both argue "how can gravity work" because two different results are happening that are contradictory.
In one case books are falling, in other case they are sitting still.

Instead the laws of gravity can explain BOTH situations: when the shelf is slanted,
the gravity can make the books slide down, fall over or fall to the floor.
When the shelf is perfectly level, the books are held up by the shelf.

So the same laws of gravity actually explain why all the different results are happening.

So when we finally understand how the universal laws really work,
we can explain all the different scenarios going on.

But [MENTION=49831]BillyP[/MENTION] the laws of gravity or the rest of the workings of the universe
still continue to operate even if we can't figure them out and disagree what's going on.
Understanding God as the source or the collective body of all laws works the same way.