How did the Universe get here?

[Boss]

[MENTION=36773]Boss[/MENTION]

Spirituality like religion and god is a human construct. It exists -- in the mind

The problem you are having is the same problem all Atheists have with God. You cannot conceive of any "existence" other than physical. You can't imagine a physical man sitting on a cloud, ruling over us with the Charlton Heston voice, so you believe this silly notion must not be "real" and in a physical sense, you are correct. All of your refutations of God are based on your limited understanding of physical nature and physical reality, which is all your mind can imagine there is.

You cannot prove that humans constructed spirituality. There is just not any evidence to make that conclusion, but since your mind is unable to imagine anything other than physical nature, you assume that must be the case. It's not the case. Humans are intrinsically connected to something greater than self... always have been, always will be. From the oldest human civilizations ever unearthed to the here and now, humans are overwhelmingly spiritual. Religions are man-made constructs, and they are prime evidence that humans make some kind of real spiritual connection to something greater than self.

There can be debate over what exactly that thing is, but one thing it's not is physical.

How strange the limits of your mind have you equating non belief in your nonsense to atheism.

Actually, spirituality...

try this definition:

1) of soul: relating to the soul or spirit, usually in contrast to material things
2) of religion: relating to religious or sacred things rather than worldly things
3) temperamentally or intellectually akin: connected by an affinity of the mind, spirit, or temperament

---

"You cannot prove that humans constructed spirituality. There is just not any evidence to make that conclusion..."

Evidence to make conclusions 101

Imagine a soccer game, where the ball is invisible to you. If you watched the interections of the players, the grass and the slight spherical bulge in the net that happened when the goalie dived to the ground and the crowds cheered, you could conclude that there was something there, that gave meaning to all the rules of the game. To explain the universe, physicists need the absolute smallest building block, and the laws of physics.

The God Particle: Chapter 1: The Invisible Soccer Ball

Spirituality is not of the physical world: correct. It is of the mind. Things of the mind exist in the mind.

" From the oldest human civilizations ever unearthed to the here and now, humans are overwhelmingly spiritual." -- and have believed in the most absurd things the mind could conjure up.

btw, Dante believes there is something that drives the human mind to search and discover...

Spirituality is not of the physical world: correct. It is of the mind. Things of the mind exist in the mind.

Spirituality is describing an attribute held by a physical being. It is the awareness of something Spiritual. Saying "spirituality" is purely in the mind is no different than saying "philosophy" is purely in the mind. Does that mean everything man can philosophize about is fake and not real?

To explain the universe, physicists need the absolute smallest building block, and the laws of physics.

To explain the physical universe, yes. The laws of physics only apply to that which are physical in nature. You continue to demonstrate your inability to recognize anything beyond physical nature. If it's not physical, it cannot exist. However, there are things in the physical universe that are not physical, or at least not 'material' and they do exist. You don't need me to give you examples, you are aware of these things. You accept them as part of the physical because you are aware of them and know they exist in physical nature. But the spiritual also exists in physical nature, you just don't accept it. Instead of comprehending it as part of physical nature that you can't materialistically quantify, you reject it and pretend it doesn't really exist. Since the spiritual doesn't exist materially, it's not possible to provide you with material evidence.

 

[edthecynic]

Who made god?

Who made gravity? Who made energy? Who made light?

Nobody!
Energy IS.

But the same can't be true for God?

No, there is a repeatable experiment that proves energy can neither be created nor destroyed, IOW, energy IS.
There is no such experiment for any God or Gods.

IOW, we know absolutely that energy IS, but we can only have faith that God IS.

 

[edthecynic]

But the same can't be true for God?

We can prove energy light and gravity exist. You can't prove god exists.

Who made them?

It has been proven that energy cannot be "made" or unmade.
Energy IS.

 

[sealybobo]

[MENTION=36773]Boss[/MENTION]

The problem you are having is the same problem all Atheists have with God. You cannot conceive of any "existence" other than physical. You can't imagine a physical man sitting on a cloud, ruling over us with the Charlton Heston voice, so you believe this silly notion must not be "real" and in a physical sense, you are correct. All of your refutations of God are based on your limited understanding of physical nature and physical reality, which is all your mind can imagine there is.

You cannot prove that humans constructed spirituality. There is just not any evidence to make that conclusion, but since your mind is unable to imagine anything other than physical nature, you assume that must be the case. It's not the case. Humans are intrinsically connected to something greater than self... always have been, always will be. From the oldest human civilizations ever unearthed to the here and now, humans are overwhelmingly spiritual. Religions are man-made constructs, and they are prime evidence that humans make some kind of real spiritual connection to something greater than self.

There can be debate over what exactly that thing is, but one thing it's not is physical.

How strange the limits of your mind have you equating non belief in your nonsense to atheism.

Actually, spirituality...

try this definition:

1) of soul: relating to the soul or spirit, usually in contrast to material things
2) of religion: relating to religious or sacred things rather than worldly things
3) temperamentally or intellectually akin: connected by an affinity of the mind, spirit, or temperament

---

"You cannot prove that humans constructed spirituality. There is just not any evidence to make that conclusion..."

Evidence to make conclusions 101

Imagine a soccer game, where the ball is invisible to you. If you watched the interections of the players, the grass and the slight spherical bulge in the net that happened when the goalie dived to the ground and the crowds cheered, you could conclude that there was something there, that gave meaning to all the rules of the game. To explain the universe, physicists need the absolute smallest building block, and the laws of physics.

The God Particle: Chapter 1: The Invisible Soccer Ball

Spirituality is not of the physical world: correct. It is of the mind. Things of the mind exist in the mind.

" From the oldest human civilizations ever unearthed to the here and now, humans are overwhelmingly spiritual." -- and have believed in the most absurd things the mind could conjure up.

btw, Dante believes there is something that drives the human mind to search and discover...

Spirituality is not of the physical world: correct. It is of the mind. Things of the mind exist in the mind.

Spirituality is describing an attribute held by a physical being. It is the awareness of something Spiritual. Saying "spirituality" is purely in the mind is no different than saying "philosophy" is purely in the mind. Does that mean everything man can philosophize about is fake and not real?

To explain the universe, physicists need the absolute smallest building block, and the laws of physics.

To explain the physical universe, yes. The laws of physics only apply to that which are physical in nature. You continue to demonstrate your inability to recognize anything beyond physical nature. If it's not physical, it cannot exist. However, there are things in the physical universe that are not physical, or at least not 'material' and they do exist. You don't need me to give you examples, you are aware of these things. You accept them as part of the physical because you are aware of them and know they exist in physical nature. But the spiritual also exists in physical nature, you just don't accept it. Instead of comprehending it as part of physical nature that you can't materialistically quantify, you reject it and pretend it doesn't really exist. Since the spiritual doesn't exist materially, it's not possible to provide you with material evidence.

1. Yes, are minds don't imagine a non physical god but your mind does.

2. You are probably a proud man and hate admitting when you are wrong, but I think you are a bigger man than most righties because I see you backing down on this.

3. What are some of the things in the universe that exist but are not physical other than god? Has science weighed in on those things? What are a few examples?

4. Are you saying god is unable to transform himself into a physical being and perform miracles for us? So if he can't even play in the physical, how the hell did he create the physical? Stupid.

5. Scientists pretty much even know what part of the brain made up god/spirituality. I can't believe you can't understand that primitive men invented god. Healthy fear of the unknown. I've explained this to you several times. You are stubborn.

But I do see you backing down. Now you are saying god exists "in our minds". Sure, as long as that is where you keep it because when you tell us about it we should lock you up for being insane. When I was a baby I had an imaginary friend. I grew out of it. You didn't.

 

[itfitzme]

But the same can't be true for God?

Now Boss will tell me I can't prove my mom is real or that she is my mom. Boss can get real deep, in the doo doo.

No, the truth is, nothing is proven. Science can't prove anything, it can only predict probability of possibility. Now, it may predict a very high probability of a possibility, and we may interpret that as "proof" of something, but that's not science, that is us drawing a conclusion.

Let me ask you this. Can you calculate the probability that you will wake up in the morning on Mars? Simple question, a yes or no will suffice.

I will give you $500 if you wake up on Mars tommorow. If not, you give me $20. That is pretty good odds I'm giving you. Will you take the bet? I'll give you $10,000 if God manafests itself in the next month? If not, you give me $100. Pretty goods odd. Are you willing to take that bet?

We all know that you will not take that bet. What odds are you willing to take to put your money where your mouth is?

We all know you won't back it up at any odds.

I'll take any odds you are willing and put up my current savings.

When it gets down to it, in your gut, you won't stake anything of real value to your belief. People of knowledge will and do, regularly.

Prove me wrong, make it worth the effort and I guarantee I'll come up with someone else that'll double the offer.

How much are you willing to put up to prove your belief? Talk is cheap.

And reality just isn't that complicated.

 

[Derideo_Te]

What a bunch of nonsense thinking origins was not directed by something. Stop with the chemistry nonsense as well,for your information those chemicals that are found in the cell are soluble in water or would be destroyed by oxygen or the sun. A fully functioning cell is only produced by another fully functioning cell.

You can believe with a straight face it happened without direction ?

Who made god? Or are you suggesting with a straight face that he happened without direction?

Of course, you might be wondering where the first cell came from. A lot of people wonder about that. Since the first cells formed billions of years ago, and single cells don't leave fossils, that's a tough question. It's possible that there were a few different types of cells that formed around the same time. There's evidence that modern plant and animal cells are a result of two or more kinds of cells joining together.

Science has studied this and the only thing that is insane is to interject god as the answer. The honest answer is we don't know yet.

“I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.” – Richard Dawkins

“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.” – Charles Darwin

Who made god?

Who made gravity? Who made energy? Who made light?

Assumes that these never existed therefore the onus is on you to prove that they never existed and had to be made.

 

[percysunshine]

Now Boss will tell me I can't prove my mom is real or that she is my mom. Boss can get real deep, in the doo doo.

No, the truth is, nothing is proven. Science can't prove anything, it can only predict probability of possibility. Now, it may predict a very high probability of a possibility, and we may interpret that as "proof" of something, but that's not science, that is us drawing a conclusion.

Let me ask you this. Can you calculate the probability that you will wake up in the morning on Mars? Simple question, a yes or no will suffice.

I will give you $500 if you wake up on Mars tommorow. If not, you give me $20. That is pretty good odds I'm giving you. Will you take the bet? I'll give you $10,000 if God manafests itself in the next month? If not, you give me $100. Pretty goods odd. Are you willing to take that bet?

We all know that you will not take that bet. What odds are you willing to take to put your money where your mouth is?

We all know you won't back it up at any odds.

I'll take any odds you are willing and put up my current savings.

When it gets down to it, in your gut, you won't stake anything of real value to your belief. People of knowledge will and do, regularly.

My $1 against your $1,000,000 ... with the caveat that I get to define the term 'manifest'.

.

 

[itfitzme]

BTW, did anyone prove that life had a beginning?

Cuz it seems to me that this is the more fundamental question that makes or breaks the whole arguement.

 

[Boss]

Nobody!
Energy IS.

But the same can't be true for God?

No, there is a repeatable experiment that proves energy can neither be created nor destroyed, IOW, energy IS.
There is no such experiment for any God or Gods.

IOW, we know absolutely that energy IS, but we can only have faith that God IS.

Do you KNOW what energy is? When did you prove it is not God or spiritually produced? Care to reveal those tests and evaluations for my examination? ..yeah... didn't think so.

 

[Boss]

Now Boss will tell me I can't prove my mom is real or that she is my mom. Boss can get real deep, in the doo doo.

No, the truth is, nothing is proven. Science can't prove anything, it can only predict probability of possibility. Now, it may predict a very high probability of a possibility, and we may interpret that as "proof" of something, but that's not science, that is us drawing a conclusion.

Let me ask you this. Can you calculate the probability that you will wake up in the morning on Mars? Simple question, a yes or no will suffice.

Yes. The probability is just as good as a god existing. It could happen. I can't say 100% sure it won't happen. But the chances I will is less than 1%. Way lower than 1%.

You have no basis to compare a physical probability with a spiritual one. Science is unable to evaluate spiritual probabilities. You did answer the question correctly, there is a calculable probability that you will wake up on Mars tomorrow. As absurd as it sounds, it is still a possibility. What this should prove is that nothing is impossible and nothing is truly "proven" to be fact. Everything has a possibility, regardless of the probability.

 

[Boss]

Now Boss will tell me I can't prove my mom is real or that she is my mom. Boss can get real deep, in the doo doo.

No, the truth is, nothing is proven. Science can't prove anything, it can only predict probability of possibility. Now, it may predict a very high probability of a possibility, and we may interpret that as "proof" of something, but that's not science, that is us drawing a conclusion.

Let me ask you this. Can you calculate the probability that you will wake up in the morning on Mars? Simple question, a yes or no will suffice.

I will give you $500 if you wake up on Mars tommorow. If not, you give me $20. That is pretty good odds I'm giving you. Will you take the bet? I'll give you $10,000 if God manafests itself in the next month? If not, you give me $100. Pretty goods odd. Are you willing to take that bet?

We all know that you will not take that bet. What odds are you willing to take to put your money where your mouth is?

We all know you won't back it up at any odds.

I'll take any odds you are willing and put up my current savings.

When it gets down to it, in your gut, you won't stake anything of real value to your belief. People of knowledge will and do, regularly.

Prove me wrong, make it worth the effort and I guarantee I'll come up with someone else that'll double the offer.

How much are you willing to put up to prove your belief? Talk is cheap.

And reality just isn't that complicated.

You're misunderstanding the point. I never said it was a high probability, I asked if a probability could be calculated and the answer is YES. You would have to wait longer than the universe has existed, but there is a probability and it can be calculated. We're not debating what we're willing to bet on happening, we are debating what is and isn't possible. Whenever you, or anyone else, claims something is "impossible" or something is "proven fact" then you have abandoned science for faith. You are no longer using science in your evaluation because science only deals with probability of possibility, it doesn't conclude things are proven or impossible. That is a faith-based belief only.

 

[edthecynic]

But the same can't be true for God?

No, there is a repeatable experiment that proves energy can neither be created nor destroyed, IOW, energy IS.
There is no such experiment for any God or Gods.

IOW, we know absolutely that energy IS, but we can only have faith that God IS.

Do you KNOW what energy is? When did you prove it is not God or spiritually produced? Care to reveal those tests and evaluations for my examination? ..yeah... didn't think so.

Anyone with an actual BS in a real science would have known about the repeatable experiment of James Prescott Joule. We physicists had to repeat the experiments in our lab portion of our physics course as part of our education. Funny how you claim to be a real scientist and yet you never even heard about Joule's work. Did you know that the unit of WORK is called a Joule is named after him in honor of his great achievement? Did you even know that your power strip for your computer or your AV equipment is rated in Joules?

 

[Boss]

Who made god? Or are you suggesting with a straight face that he happened without direction?

Of course, you might be wondering where the first cell came from. A lot of people wonder about that. Since the first cells formed billions of years ago, and single cells don't leave fossils, that's a tough question. It's possible that there were a few different types of cells that formed around the same time. There's evidence that modern plant and animal cells are a result of two or more kinds of cells joining together.

Science has studied this and the only thing that is insane is to interject god as the answer. The honest answer is we don't know yet.

“I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.” – Richard Dawkins

“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.” – Charles Darwin

Who made god?

Who made gravity? Who made energy? Who made light?

Assumes that these never existed therefore the onus is on you to prove that they never existed and had to be made.

Then the same applies for God.

 

[Boss]

No, there is a repeatable experiment that proves energy can neither be created nor destroyed, IOW, energy IS.
There is no such experiment for any God or Gods.

IOW, we know absolutely that energy IS, but we can only have faith that God IS.

Do you KNOW what energy is? When did you prove it is not God or spiritually produced? Care to reveal those tests and evaluations for my examination? ..yeah... didn't think so.

Anyone with an actual BS in a real science would have known about the repeatable experiment of James Prescott Joule. We physicists had to repeat the experiments in our lab portion of our physics course as part of our education. Funny how you claim to be a real scientist and yet you never even heard about Joule's work. Did you know that the unit of WORK is called a Joule is named after him in honor of his great achievement? Did you even know that your power strip for your computer or your AV equipment is rated in Joules?

I understand Joule's work. I never said energy couldn't be measured. I asked if you know what energy IS? Did Joule prove energy was not spiritually produced by God? If so, let's see the tests and experiments! Let's see this evidence!

 

[BillyP]

Who made god?

Who made gravity? Who made energy? Who made light?

Assumes that these never existed therefore the onus is on you to prove that they never existed and had to be made.

Then the same applies for God.

Gravity... Are measurable quantities. God is not, it's only a figment of some people's imagination.

 

[AVG-JOE]

BTW, did anyone prove that life had a beginning?

Cuz it seems to me that this is the more fundamental question that makes or breaks the whole arguement.

The only 'Life' that we know of is our very own living planet Earth. Geology has proven to the empirical thinkers that there was a time, when our world was young and forming, that no life existed here, and, for the religious thinkers, the book of Genesis in The Torah can easily be interpreted to show a beginning point when God spoke life into existence, so there should be a modicum of agreement between religion and science on this one: Yes, 'Life' on Earth most certainly has a start-date.

 

[Boss]

We can prove energy light and gravity exist. You can't prove god exists.

Who made them?

Boy you really are a primitive man. 20,000 years ago when lightening or thunder struck primitive man didn't know science and they thought thunder and lightening were god(s). We have long put those thoughts behind us but clearly from your question you have not.

It is as if science doesn't exist despite all the proof around you. But god does exist despite all the lack of proof. You are truly an ignorant close minded simpleton.

But I don't get the feeling you really believe the shit you say. You'll argue despite the fact that you have no argument. Perfect example was when you tried to prove to me my mom doesn't exist. Yea, that's exactly like you not being able to prove your god exists. Fucking idiot.

Well, let's examine this phenomenon we call "lightning" for a moment. Can you explain why the phenomenon exists in our universe? Not how it happens, but why it happens? What causes some atoms to become electrically charged while others are not? Again.. not how it happens but why? There is a force called "electromagnetism" and through this force, phenomenon such as lightning is enabled. Why does this electromagnetic force exist? Why do weak and strong nuclear forces exist? Why does gravity exist?

I think I have a very GOOD argument, and you can't refute it with science. That leads to frustration on your part, and so you go on the attack and start calling names and questioning my intelligence. The fact remains, you have not refuted the argument and you can't. No one can. Science is a great and wonderful tool for us to learn and know about how things work in our universe, but the questions of WHY they work are a mystery. You assume that because we know HOW things work, we can simply dismiss WHY they work.

 

[Boss]

Assumes that these never existed therefore the onus is on you to prove that they never existed and had to be made.

Then the same applies for God.

Gravity... Are measurable quantities. God is not, it's only a figment of some people's imagination.

How do you KNOW God is not a measurable quantity? Where is the test that proves this? You see, what you are doing is saying "things we know are not God because God can only be that which we do not know." This is known as circular reasoning.

 

[edthecynic]

Do you KNOW what energy is? When did you prove it is not God or spiritually produced? Care to reveal those tests and evaluations for my examination? ..yeah... didn't think so.

Anyone with an actual BS in a real science would have known about the repeatable experiment of James Prescott Joule. We physicists had to repeat the experiments in our lab portion of our physics course as part of our education. Funny how you claim to be a real scientist and yet you never even heard about Joule's work. Did you know that the unit of WORK is called a Joule is named after him in honor of his great achievement? Did you even know that your power strip for your computer or your AV equipment is rated in Joules?

I understand Joule's work. I never said energy couldn't be measured. I asked if you know what energy IS? Did Joule prove energy was not spiritually produced by God? If so, let's see the tests and experiments! Let's see this evidence!

If you want to rename "energy" as "God" fine, but renaming energy does not make it spiritual simply because people associate God with spirituality.

You are claiming energy is spiritual, you are claiming energy was created by the spiritual, IOW itself, or itself as God. The onus is on you, not me for proof of your claims of faith. You have yet to prove the spiritual can create anything physical, let alone energy!

My claim is energy is physical and it has been proven that energy cannot be created nor destroyed.

 

[edthecynic]

Then the same applies for God.

Gravity... Are measurable quantities. God is not, it's only a figment of some people's imagination.

How do you KNOW God is not a measurable quantity? Where is the test that proves this? You see, what you are doing is saying "things we know are not God because God can only be that which we do not know." This is known as circular reasoning.

Well then tell us what measuring instrument measures God?