How do the non-spiritual explain it?

[Hollie]

I lean towards reincarnation. I'm agnostic, I see no proof that reincarnation is run by a god, nor do I see proof for the need for reincarnation to be run by a god in the first place.

I see a computer in front of me. I am obviously the only person running it. I've looked inside the box and there is no little human in there running the computer. I am the one pushing the keys, opening the windows, executing applications. This is MY computer, I see no evidence any other human is involved. That is my observation.

Now.... All that said, a person with any common sense will understand, some human must have created the computer I am running. At some point, many humans are responsible for this computer being here. Engineers, programmers, technicians, designers.... they all played a role in making this computer happen. I can sit here in naive stupidity and refuse to acknowledge their contributions, stubbornly insisting I don't need any explanation involving other humans. Does that make me right?

Hey... I have no problem with the concept of reincarnation, but I think it only adds another complicated layer of awe-inspiring phenomenon that simply doesn't seem possible as the result of randomness and chance. So there is no "master plan" here? Our spiritual beings are flowing from one physical life to the next and there is no guiding force or intelligent design to the system? It just so happens to be that way? Bizarre!

You see, I don't have to build a shrine and worship Bill Gates to acknowledge people had something to do with my computer's existence. There is a broad range between worshiping Bill Gates and acknowledging Bill Gates must exist. My refusing to acknowledge Bill Gates is never going to make Bill Gates unreal. Insisting my computer can and does exist as a matter of random circumstance and not because it was designed and created, does not change the truth.

The people who made your computer actually do exist and we can visit them and touch them. Your god? Not so much. Total speculation. Or wishful thinking. There MAY be a Master with his plan, but such a thing or person has yet to be proven.

You were talking about the need for a god in order to have reincarnation. Now you are back to rejecting God based on lack of physical proof. Did you stop believing in reincarnation in the midst of your argument?

Reincarnation doesn't necessarily need a god to happen, not that I can tell anyways.

Doesn't need a "God" per say, but it does require spirituality.

Well in case you missed the last 5-6 pages, there seems to be a debate over whether or not the universe is finely tuned. My arguments have been mostly in establishing this is indeed a fact. .

.

other than the Garden Earth a jewel of eternal randomness, just what is the accomplishment of the "finely tuned universe" suppose to "Represent" - as per your concept of a non physical, spirit bound, only God ... an earthquake on Mars ?

.
boss, is the fisher on the planet Mercury an act of God or a random event contrary to the finely tuned universe ?

* could the fisher occur because it is random without the presence of God ?

.

Random events, even odd ones, are not contrary to a finely tuned universe. We have to be careful not to draw a false assumption that "fine tuned" somehow means pristine and perfect. Willie Nelson's guitar is finely tuned.

You're implying that your gawds are incompetent designers. The "finely tuned" universe was tuned by inept mechanics.

 

[TheOldSchool]

 

[dblack]

The 'finely tuned' argument can be claimed from pretty much any fact about reality, as all are equally rare and specific. "So what?" is the only answer the argument warrants.

 

[BreezeWood]

Well in case you missed the last 5-6 pages, there seems to be a debate over whether or not the universe is finely tuned. My arguments have been mostly in establishing this is indeed a fact. .

.

other than the Garden Earth a jewel of eternal randomness, just what is the accomplishment of the "finely tuned universe" suppose to "Represent" - as per your concept of a non physical, spirit bound, only God ... an earthquake on Mars ?

.
boss, is the fisher on the planet Mercury an act of God or a random event contrary to the finely tuned universe ?

* could the fisher occur because it is random without the presence of God ?

.

Random events, even odd ones, are not contrary to a finely tuned universe. We have to be careful not to draw a false assumption that "fine tuned" somehow means pristine and perfect. Willie Nelson's guitar is finely tuned.

.
your spirituality seems driven by control, a finely tuned universe whereas Spirituality is in fact the exact opposite.

.

 

[Boss]

your spirituality seems driven by control, a finely tuned universe whereas Spirituality is in fact the exact opposite.

Don't know what you're talking about. My spirituality is driven by my intrinsic connection to spiritual nature. My belief the universe is finely tuned is based on science and physics.

 

[Boss]

I see a computer in front of me. I am obviously the only person running it. I've looked inside the box and there is no little human in there running the computer. I am the one pushing the keys, opening the windows, executing applications. This is MY computer, I see no evidence any other human is involved. That is my observation.

Now.... All that said, a person with any common sense will understand, some human must have created the computer I am running. At some point, many humans are responsible for this computer being here. Engineers, programmers, technicians, designers.... they all played a role in making this computer happen. I can sit here in naive stupidity and refuse to acknowledge their contributions, stubbornly insisting I don't need any explanation involving other humans. Does that make me right?

Hey... I have no problem with the concept of reincarnation, but I think it only adds another complicated layer of awe-inspiring phenomenon that simply doesn't seem possible as the result of randomness and chance. So there is no "master plan" here? Our spiritual beings are flowing from one physical life to the next and there is no guiding force or intelligent design to the system? It just so happens to be that way? Bizarre!

You see, I don't have to build a shrine and worship Bill Gates to acknowledge people had something to do with my computer's existence. There is a broad range between worshiping Bill Gates and acknowledging Bill Gates must exist. My refusing to acknowledge Bill Gates is never going to make Bill Gates unreal. Insisting my computer can and does exist as a matter of random circumstance and not because it was designed and created, does not change the truth.

The people who made your computer actually do exist and we can visit them and touch them. Your god? Not so much. Total speculation. Or wishful thinking. There MAY be a Master with his plan, but such a thing or person has yet to be proven.

You were talking about the need for a god in order to have reincarnation. Now you are back to rejecting God based on lack of physical proof. Did you stop believing in reincarnation in the midst of your argument?

Reincarnation doesn't necessarily need a god to happen, not that I can tell anyways.

Doesn't need a "God" per say, but it does require spirituality.

Well in case you missed the last 5-6 pages, there seems to be a debate over whether or not the universe is finely tuned. My arguments have been mostly in establishing this is indeed a fact. .

.

other than the Garden Earth a jewel of eternal randomness, just what is the accomplishment of the "finely tuned universe" suppose to "Represent" - as per your concept of a non physical, spirit bound, only God ... an earthquake on Mars ?

.
boss, is the fisher on the planet Mercury an act of God or a random event contrary to the finely tuned universe ?

* could the fisher occur because it is random without the presence of God ?

.

Random events, even odd ones, are not contrary to a finely tuned universe. We have to be careful not to draw a false assumption that "fine tuned" somehow means pristine and perfect. Willie Nelson's guitar is finely tuned.

You're implying that your gawds are incompetent designers. The "finely tuned" universe was tuned by inept mechanics.

Nope. There are no inept mechanics or incompetent designers. You presume to have more knowledge than you actually have. This is a common hubris atheists often display in their blind ignorance of spiritual nature.

 

[Boss]

Again, I will ask you
What is your concept of precision?

I am not asking you how a model works
I am not asking you to explain any of the quotes you' ve cited.

I am asking you what is your concept of precision when you talk about a "finely tuned" universe.

Hint: Depending on what you say, I might agree with you. But a presup wouldn't.

I don't know what you mean by "concept of precision." Humans have all kinds of words we've made to define things. Precision is how close measured values are to each other. Not to be confused with "accuracy" which is how close a value is to the actual true value.

 

[Hollie]

The people who made your computer actually do exist and we can visit them and touch them. Your god? Not so much. Total speculation. Or wishful thinking. There MAY be a Master with his plan, but such a thing or person has yet to be proven.

You were talking about the need for a god in order to have reincarnation. Now you are back to rejecting God based on lack of physical proof. Did you stop believing in reincarnation in the midst of your argument?

Reincarnation doesn't necessarily need a god to happen, not that I can tell anyways.

Doesn't need a "God" per say, but it does require spirituality.

Well in case you missed the last 5-6 pages, there seems to be a debate over whether or not the universe is finely tuned. My arguments have been mostly in establishing this is indeed a fact. .

.

other than the Garden Earth a jewel of eternal randomness, just what is the accomplishment of the "finely tuned universe" suppose to "Represent" - as per your concept of a non physical, spirit bound, only God ... an earthquake on Mars ?

.
boss, is the fisher on the planet Mercury an act of God or a random event contrary to the finely tuned universe ?

* could the fisher occur because it is random without the presence of God ?

.

Random events, even odd ones, are not contrary to a finely tuned universe. We have to be careful not to draw a false assumption that "fine tuned" somehow means pristine and perfect. Willie Nelson's guitar is finely tuned.

You're implying that your gawds are incompetent designers. The "finely tuned" universe was tuned by inept mechanics.

Nope. There are no inept mechanics or incompetent designers. You presume to have more knowledge than you actually have. This is a common hubris atheists often display in their blind ignorance of spiritual nature.

Unfortunately Bossy, you fail to realize the hopelessness of ID'iot creationism as a means to explain anything. Firstly, it has been demonstrated that there is nothing in ID'iot creationism that can be used as a reliable or even useful way to detect ‘super-magical design’. Secondly, nothing in ID'iot creationism can exclude Darwinian evolution ie:, natural selection as a mechanism even when your super-magical designer gawds are presumed as the cause of existence. Thirdly ID'iot creationism has failed as a mechanism to make predictions based upon the extant theory (as science does) leaving ID'iot creationism shown to be useful only as a trivial, non-scientific absurdity.

The failed attempts by fundamentalist Christians to an arranged marriage between your religion and science does nothing to infer super-magical creation. The humiliating loses in the courts wherein you fundies tried to throw a burqa on your religion and misrepresent it as science to force it into the public schools have repeatedly shown ID'iot creationism as a laughable fraud. What actually occurred was that ID’s claims were shown to be bad science, bad religion and nothing more than trivial, empty claims, lacking in scientific relevance and applicability.

Anyone familiar with the ID'iot creationist movement understands that it is all about fundamentalist Christianity and that any scientific applicability is only contrived.

 

[Hollie]

your spirituality seems driven by control, a finely tuned universe whereas Spirituality is in fact the exact opposite.

Don't know what you're talking about. My spirituality is driven by my intrinsic connection to spiritual nature. My belief the universe is finely tuned is based on science and physics.

Those are the same cliches and slogans you used in the prior thread You opened where you were hoping to sell "Boss's Religion of Spiritual Connections"

No converts yet, eh?

 

[Boss]

Secondly, nothing in ID'iot creationism can exclude Darwinian evolution ie:, natural selection as a mechanism even when your super-magical designer gawds are presumed as the cause of existence.

We can exclude Darwinian evolution as the cause of origin because it doesn't deal with that question. Natural selection and evolution don't happen before origin so they can't be explanations for it. The star you want to hitch your hopes to is Abiogenesis theory, and it's purely a hypothesis at this time. Scientists have never been able to produce life from inorganic material. All life comes from life.

 

[Boss]

your spirituality seems driven by control, a finely tuned universe whereas Spirituality is in fact the exact opposite.

Don't know what you're talking about. My spirituality is driven by my intrinsic connection to spiritual nature. My belief the universe is finely tuned is based on science and physics.

Those are the same cliches and slogans you used in the prior thread You opened where you were hoping to sell "Boss's Religion of Spiritual Connections"

No converts yet, eh?

Don't need 'em... Us spiritual people are at 95% already.

 

[Hollie]

your spirituality seems driven by control, a finely tuned universe whereas Spirituality is in fact the exact opposite.

Don't know what you're talking about. My spirituality is driven by my intrinsic connection to spiritual nature. My belief the universe is finely tuned is based on science and physics.

Those are the same cliches and slogans you used in the prior thread You opened where you were hoping to sell "Boss's Religion of Spiritual Connections"

No converts yet, eh?

Don't need 'em... Us spiritual people are at 95% already.

Cliches' and slogans.

 

[BreezeWood]

your spirituality seems driven by control, a finely tuned universe whereas Spirituality is in fact the exact opposite.

Don't know what you're talking about. My spirituality is driven by my intrinsic connection to spiritual nature. My belief the universe is finely tuned is based on science and physics.

Those are the same cliches and slogans you used in the prior thread You opened where you were hoping to sell "Boss's Religion of Spiritual Connections"

No converts yet, eh?

.

Don't need 'em... Us spiritual people are at 95% already.

b: Don't need 'em... Us spiritual people are at 95% already.

.

while singing your "gospel" in Salem -

* definitively speaking ...

.

 

[Hollie]

your spirituality seems driven by control, a finely tuned universe whereas Spirituality is in fact the exact opposite.

Don't know what you're talking about. My spirituality is driven by my intrinsic connection to spiritual nature. My belief the universe is finely tuned is based on science and physics.

Those are the same cliches and slogans you used in the prior thread You opened where you were hoping to sell "Boss's Religion of Spiritual Connections"

No converts yet, eh?

Don't need 'em... Us spiritual people are at 95% already.

What's curious is your continued 95% slogan which you have never been able to represent as true.

Making false claims seems to define the ID'iot creationist syndicates.

 

[PostmodernProph]

Which of the gawds are responsible for a "randomly tuned" universe vs. a "finely tuned" one.

What are the differences?

your's are responsible for the randomly tuned ones......the difference is your's are fake......

 

[PostmodernProph]

All the available evidence suggests that life on this planet is the product of naturally occurring processes.

Show us your evidence.

Life on the planet. There's your evidence.
.

Boss?....here's another candidate for your dictionary entry on Circular Reasoning.....

 

[Taz]

I lean towards reincarnation. I'm agnostic, I see no proof that reincarnation is run by a god, nor do I see proof for the need for reincarnation to be run by a god in the first place.

I see a computer in front of me. I am obviously the only person running it. I've looked inside the box and there is no little human in there running the computer. I am the one pushing the keys, opening the windows, executing applications. This is MY computer, I see no evidence any other human is involved. That is my observation.

Now.... All that said, a person with any common sense will understand, some human must have created the computer I am running. At some point, many humans are responsible for this computer being here. Engineers, programmers, technicians, designers.... they all played a role in making this computer happen. I can sit here in naive stupidity and refuse to acknowledge their contributions, stubbornly insisting I don't need any explanation involving other humans. Does that make me right?

Hey... I have no problem with the concept of reincarnation, but I think it only adds another complicated layer of awe-inspiring phenomenon that simply doesn't seem possible as the result of randomness and chance. So there is no "master plan" here? Our spiritual beings are flowing from one physical life to the next and there is no guiding force or intelligent design to the system? It just so happens to be that way? Bizarre!

You see, I don't have to build a shrine and worship Bill Gates to acknowledge people had something to do with my computer's existence. There is a broad range between worshiping Bill Gates and acknowledging Bill Gates must exist. My refusing to acknowledge Bill Gates is never going to make Bill Gates unreal. Insisting my computer can and does exist as a matter of random circumstance and not because it was designed and created, does not change the truth.

The people who made your computer actually do exist and we can visit them and touch them. Your god? Not so much. Total speculation. Or wishful thinking. There MAY be a Master with his plan, but such a thing or person has yet to be proven.

You were talking about the need for a god in order to have reincarnation. Now you are back to rejecting God based on lack of physical proof. Did you stop believing in reincarnation in the midst of your argument?

Reincarnation doesn't necessarily need a god to happen, not that I can tell anyways.

Doesn't need a "God" per say, but it does require spirituality.

How so?

 

[Taz]

All the available evidence suggests that life on this planet is the product of naturally occurring processes.

Show us your evidence.

Life on the planet. There's your evidence.
.

Boss?....here's another candidate for your dictionary entry on Circular Reasoning.....

Did you ever figure out how marsupials got from Oz to Noah's raft and back?

 

[Hollie]

Which of the gawds are responsible for a "randomly tuned" universe vs. a "finely tuned" one.

What are the differences?

your's are responsible for the randomly tuned ones......the difference is your's are fake......

That's as pointless as your usual nonsense.

 

[Hollie]

All the available evidence suggests that life on this planet is the product of naturally occurring processes.

Show us your evidence.

Life on the planet. There's your evidence.
.

Boss?....here's another candidate for your dictionary entry on Circular Reasoning.....

What supernatural processes are there?