How do we Know Human are Causing Climate Change?

I'm not.
But as I've posted many times... CO2 CONTROLS Water Vapor FIRST.
That's why CO2 is the issue/what we Have spewed into the Atmo and can lower.

So Ding Has NOW ADMITTED GHG's, including secondarily Water Vapor, Do control the Temperature.


More elaborately:


Water Vapor, CO2, and Global Warming​


MYTH: Water vapor is the most important, abundant greenhouse gas. So if we’re going to control a greenhouse gas, why don’t we control it instead of carbon dioxide (CO2)?

This is a common Misconception in the debate over greenhouse gases and the causes of global warming. Both water vapor and carbon dioxide are important greenhouse gases that play a crucial role in atmospheric warming. A greenhouse gas is a gas that absorbs and re-emits infrared radiation in Earth’s atmosphere, thereby increasing temperatures. Which gas then is to blame for global warming and should be controlled?

Water vapor accounts for 60-70% of the greenhouse effect while CO2 accounts for 25% —a notable difference when numbers alone are compared. It would seem then that water vapor should be climatologists’ primary focus. However, water vapor cannot be controlled by human intervention; it is simply a Product of its environment.

The amount of water vapor the atmosphere can hold is dependent on temperature. Under normal conditions, most of the heat emitted from Earth’s surface in the form of long wave radiation goes into the atmosphere and out into space. However, the presence of increased greenhouse gases traps more long-wave radiation, which means there is more energy in the atmosphere to warm the Earth’s surface.

As the atmospheric temperature rises, more water is evaporated from ground storage, such as that found in our rivers, oceans, soils, and reservoirs. The released water vapor becomes a greenhouse gas where it then absorbs more energy radiated from the Earth and thus warms the atmosphere. The warmer atmosphere results in further water evaporation and the cycle continues. This mechanism is known as a Positive Feedback Loop.

Scientists then need to focus on what is causing air temperatures to rise in the first place. Heat from Other Greenhouse Gases is Causing atmospheric Warming, Leading to an increase in water evaporation and compounding the greenhouse effect. Anthropogenic, or human-derived, CO2 serves as the Primary source of Warming with water vapor playing a Secondary role.

While CO2 occurs naturally in the atmosphere, human interference has interrupted the carbon cycle through activities, such as burning forests, mining, and burning coal. These activities artificially release more carbon from their solid storage to its gaseous state in the lower atmosphere. The rapid increase in CO2 volume has exceeded the amount oceans and vegetation are able to re-absorb. Furthermore, as deforestation continues around the world, there is less vegetation every year available to sequester the carbon. Thus, excess CO2 remains in the atmosphere where it traps heat and stimulates water evaporation."...."



Water Vapor, CO2, and Global Warming | IEDRO


`

How are you accounting for water vapor's roll in the convective transfer of energy? ... mind you, that's 2,100 J/g for the latent heat of evaporation ... that much energy raises the temperature of a gram of air 2,100ºC ... is that what you mean? ...

Your "positive feedback loop" fails conservation laws my friend ... please explain why carbon dioxide goes up and temperatures go down between 1940 and 1980 ...
 
  1. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]
    Co2 levels and temperature
    ...the earth is receiving... and that energy has NOT Changed. What has changed is radiation back out into space is being Blocked at the exact spectralwavelengths of the GHGs. (CO2, CH4, Water vapor, etc). The GHG Blanket thickens every year, especially in the last 50. I've only been through...
  2. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    How do we Know Human are Causing Climate Change?

    ...the earth is receiving... and that energy has NOT Changed. What has changed is radiation back out into space is being Blocked at the exact spectralwavelengths of the GHGs. (CO2, CH4, Water vapor, etc). The GHG Blanket thickens every year, especially in the last 50. I've only been through...
  3. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    The Hottest Day in History Just Occurred

    ...is NOT the case. But there is more CO2 and other GHGs Blocking the radiation that would normally be reflected back out at the exact spectralwavelengths of the GHGs. We've increased CO2 50% in 150 years. That's one reason we know it's AGW. Because 'we' did it, it also happened 100-200x...
  4. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    Why do temperatures plummet for tens of thousands of years after CO2 peaks?

    ...Virtually Unchanged. Radiation that would have normally been reflected back out however, has increasingly been Blocked/Trapped at the exact spectralwavelengths of the ever Denser CO2/GHG Blanket. That is the difference. I've explained this 100 times. But you are a 52 IQ Dumpster fire and...
  5. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    Antarctic meltwater could dramatically slow overturning current

    ...Virtually Unchanged. Radiation that would have normally been re-emitted back out however, has increasingly been Blocked/Trapped at the exact spectralwavelengths of the ever Denser CO2/GHG Blanket. That is the difference. I've explained this 100 times. But you are a 52 IQ Dumpster fire and...
  6. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    James Hansen Wishes he Wasn’t So Right about Global Warming

    ...for more than 50 years. Radiation-in has not changed as the earth warmed. Radiation re-emitted back out is being blocked at the exact spectralwavelengths of the GHGs (Greenhouse gases) CO2 is not the only GHG. (water vapor, Methane, etc) Methane/CH4 is 20-80 as powerful. (from livestock)...
  7. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    Why do temperatures plummet for tens of thousands of years after CO2 peaks?

    ...for more than 50 years. Radiation-in has not changed as the earth warmed. Radiation reflected back out is being blocked at the exact spectralwavelengths of the GHGs (Greenhouse gases) CO2 is not the only GHG. (water vapor, Methane, etc) Methane/CH4 is 20-80 as powerful. (from livestock)...
  8. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    How do we Know Human are Causing Climate Change?

    ...has not changed as the earth warmed. (Scientists directly measure this) Radiation reflected back out is being blocked at the exact spectralwavelengths of the GHGs (Greenhouse gases) CO2 is not the only GHG. (water vapor, Methane, etc) Methane/CH4 is 20-80 as powerful. (from livestock), and...
  9. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    2020 Ties for Hottest Year on Record, NASA Says (Nullfying 10,000 "it's cold this morning" posts here)

    ...ppm in the last 100+ years) There is no more sun hitting the earth, but there is more radiation being blocked from escaping at the exact spectralwavelengths of the Greenhouse gases. (CO2, Methane, Water Vapor, etc) That's one reason know for sure. No charge for the real science lesson...
  10. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    Summary of the recent USMB climate debate

    ...for more than 50 years. Radiation-in has not changed as the earth warmed. Radiation reflected back out is being blocked at the exact spectralwavelengths of the GHGs (Greenhouse gases) CO2 is not the only GHG. (water vapor, Methane, etc) Methane/CH4 is 20-80 as powerful. (from livestock)...
  11. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    Climate Sensitivity per the IPCC

    ...for more than 50 years. Radiation-in has not changed as the earth warmed. Radiation reflected back out is being blocked at the exact spectralwavelengths of the GHGs (Greenhouse gases) CO2 is not the only GHG. (water vapor, Methane, etc) Methane/CH4 is 20-80 as powerful. (from livestock)...
  12. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    How much of the Mix can Renewables be?

    NOAA.gov "... These gases which are most abundant within the atmosphere exhibit almost no effect on warming the earth and its atmosphere since they do not absorb visible or infrared radiation. However, there are minor gases which comprise only a small portion of the atmosphere (about 0.43% of...
  13. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    Climate Sensitivity per the IPCC

    ...for more than 50 years. Radiation-in has not changed as the earth warmed. Radiation reflected back out is being blocked at the exact spectralwavelengths of the GHGs (Greenhouse gases) CO2 is not the only GHG. (water vapor, Methane, etc) Methane/CH4 is 20-80 as powerful. (from livestock)...
  14. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    Is there a Scientific Theory to explain Climate Change?

    ...for more than 50 years. Radiation-in has not changed as the earth warmed. Radiation reflected back out is being blocked at the exact spectralwavelengths of the GHGs (Greenhouse gases) CO2 is not the only GHG. (water vapor, Methane, etc) Methane/CH4 is 20-80 as powerful. (from livestock)...
  15. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    Is Anthropogenic (Human-Caused) Global Warming/AGW Falsifiable?

    ...what has caused ALL the other warming/cooling cycles. They have also measure solar energy being Reflected back out into space, and it is being Blocked/Trapped at the exact spectralwavelengths of - again - (the aptly named) Greenhouse Gases. That/those two is one of the biggest reason we...
  16. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    How much of the Mix can Renewables be?

    ...for more than 50 years. Radiation-in has not changed as the earth warmed. Radiation reflected back out is being Blocked at the exact spectralwavelengths of the GHGs. (Greenhouse gases) CO2 is not the only GHG. (water vapor, Methane, etc) Methane/CH4 is 20-80 as powerful. (from livestock)...
  17. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    How much of the Mix can Renewables be?

    ...for more than 50 years. Radiation-in has not changed as the earth warmed. Radiation reflected back out is being Blocked at the exact spectralwavelengths of the GHGs. (Greenhouse gases) CO2 is not the only GHG. (water vapor, Methane, etc) Methane/CH4 is 20-80 as powerful. (from livestock)...
  18. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    Are the anti-science zealots accepting anthropogenic climate change yet?

    ...for more than 50 years. Radiation-in has not changed as the earth warmed. Radiation reflected back out is being blocked at the exact spectralwavelengths of the GHGs (Greenhouse gases) CO2 is not the only GHG. (water vapor, Methane, etc) Methane/CH4 is 20-80 as powerful. (from livestock)...
  19. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    Climate Scientists Wrong: Arctic Warming Faster Than Predicted.

    ...for more than 50 years. Radiation-in has not changed as the earth warmed. Radiation reflected back out is being blocked at the exact spectralwavelengths of the GHGs (Greenhouse gases) CO2 is not the only GHG. (water vapor, Methane, etc) Methane/CH4 is 20-80 as powerful. (from livestock)...
  20. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    How much of the Mix can Renewables be?

    ...for more than 50 years. Radiation-in has not changed as the earth warmed. Radiation reflected back out is being blocked at the exact spectralwavelengths of the GHGs (Greenhouse gases) CO2 is not the only GHG. (water vapor, Methane, etc) Methane/CH4 is 20-80 as powerful. (from livestock)...
  21. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    AND So, It Begins.... WINTER 2022-23

    ...for more than 50 years. Radiation-in has not changed as the earth warmed. Radiation reflected back out is being blocked at the exact spectralwavelengths of the GHGs (Greenhouse gases) CO2 is not the only GHG. (water vapor, Methane, etc) Methane/CH4 is 20-80 as powerful. (from livestock)...
  22. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    How do we Know Human are Causing Climate Change?

    ...for more than 50 years. Radiation-in has not changed as the earth warmed. Radiation reflected back out is being blocked at the exact spectralwavelengths of the GHGs (Greenhouse gases) CO2 is not the only GHG. (water vapor, Methane, etc) Methane/CH4 is 20-80 as powerful. (from livestock)...
  23. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    How do we Know Human are Causing Climate Change?

    ...has NOT changed in at least 50 years. Radiation out back into space is being blocked by the increasingly thick GHG blanket and at the exact spectralwavelengths of those GHG gases. That's about the best, but not only, of many reasons we now this is AGW. MY TURN: Can you post a paragraph...
  24. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    A Warming Climate Brings New Crops to Frigid Zones

    ...radiation-in/radiation-out. Radiation-in has NOT changed in at least 50 years. Radiation out back into space is being blocked by the increasingly thick GHG blanket and at the exact spectralwavelengths of those GHG gases. That's about the best, but not only, of many reasons we now this is...
  25. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    Bombshell study concludes there is no evidence for anthropogenic climate change...

    ...radiation-in/radiation-out. Radiation-in has NOT changed in at least 50 years. Radiation out back into space is being blocked by the increasingly thick GHG blanket and at the exact spectralwavelengths of those GHG gases. That's about the best, but not only, of many reasons we now this is...
  26. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    Study: Climate Change Boosted Plant Growth is Bad

    ...trapping warmth, and reflecting radiation/blocked from going back into space, and instead is reflected/held back at earth at the precise spectralwavelengths of the GHGs. (Water Vapor, CO2, CH2/Methane, etc) That's how they know. They also know by the CO2 isotope that we caused vs nature is...
  27. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    2020 Ties for Hottest Year on Record, NASA Says (Nullfying 10,000 "it's cold this morning" posts here)

    ...and it isn't/wasn't.. It's our increasingly thick GHG Blanket which is trapping radiation from being reflected back out into space at the precise spectralwavelengths of those GHGs. That's it in a nutshell. Hope it increases your understanding even if it doesn't override your blinding...
  28. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    Atmospheric CO2 changes lag temperature changes at all measured time scales.

    ...NOT changed. (not solar forcing/orbital anomaly) But Radiation-out is Being Blocked by our increasingly thick GHG blanket, and at the exact spectralwavelengths of those GHGs. THAT's one Big reason we know it's AGW.*** See my OP...
  29. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    A Warming Climate Brings New Crops to Frigid Zones

    ...would absorb and warm each other as well... as less of the Solar/Radiation is reflected back into space. Blocked from doing so at the exact spectralwavelengths of the GHGs. (Probably the most/most noticeable in temperate or cold regions and less in tropical ones a the heat gets transferred...
  30. [IMG alt="abu afak"]https://www.usmessageboard.com/data/avatars/s/3/3073.jpg?1386362089[/IMG]

    The Past Seven Years Have Been The Hottest In Recorded History, New Data Shows

    ...has NOT changed in at least 50 years. Radiation out back into space is being blocked by the increasingly thick GHG blanket and at the exact spectralwavelengths of those GHG gases. That's about the best, but Not Only, of many reasons we now this is AGW."" If you read it and can understand...
End of page 1 of 2.

Did you seriously stay up until 3 am just to repeat everything you've posted ... HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW ... what a tool ... just love your own writing, what a shame ...
 
I'm not.
But as I've posted many times... CO2 CONTROLS Water Vapor FIRST.
That's why CO2 is the issue/what we Have spewed into the Atmo and can lower.

So Ding Has NOW ADMITTED GHG's, including secondarily Water Vapor, Do control the Temperature.


More elaborately:


Water Vapor, CO2, and Global Warming​


MYTH: Water vapor is the most important, abundant greenhouse gas. So if we’re going to control a greenhouse gas, why don’t we control it instead of carbon dioxide (CO2)?

This is a common Misconception in the debate over greenhouse gases and the causes of global warming. Both water vapor and carbon dioxide are important greenhouse gases that play a crucial role in atmospheric warming. A greenhouse gas is a gas that absorbs and re-emits infrared radiation in Earth’s atmosphere, thereby increasing temperatures. Which gas then is to blame for global warming and should be controlled?

Water vapor accounts for 60-70% of the greenhouse effect while CO2 accounts for 25% —a notable difference when numbers alone are compared. It would seem then that water vapor should be climatologists’ primary focus. However, water vapor cannot be controlled by human intervention; it is simply a Product of its environment.

The amount of water vapor the atmosphere can hold is dependent on temperature. Under normal conditions, most of the heat emitted from Earth’s surface in the form of long wave radiation goes into the atmosphere and out into space. However, the presence of increased greenhouse gases traps more long-wave radiation, which means there is more energy in the atmosphere to warm the Earth’s surface.

As the atmospheric temperature rises, more water is evaporated from ground storage, such as that found in our rivers, oceans, soils, and reservoirs. The released water vapor becomes a greenhouse gas where it then absorbs more energy radiated from the Earth and thus warms the atmosphere. The warmer atmosphere results in further water evaporation and the cycle continues. This mechanism is known as a Positive Feedback Loop.

Scientists then need to focus on what is causing air temperatures to rise in the first place. Heat from Other Greenhouse Gases is Causing atmospheric Warming, Leading to an increase in water evaporation and compounding the greenhouse effect. Anthropogenic, or human-derived, CO2 serves as the Primary source of Warming with water vapor playing a Secondary role.

While CO2 occurs naturally in the atmosphere, human interference has interrupted the carbon cycle through activities, such as burning forests, mining, and burning coal. These activities artificially release more carbon from their solid storage to its gaseous state in the lower atmosphere. The rapid increase in CO2 volume has exceeded the amount oceans and vegetation are able to re-absorb. Furthermore, as deforestation continues around the world, there is less vegetation every year available to sequester the carbon. Thus, excess CO2 remains in the atmosphere where it traps heat and stimulates water evaporation."...."



Water Vapor, CO2, and Global Warming | IEDRO


`
The doubling of CO2 will produce 1C of atmospheric warming. That's the science. Deal with it.
 
I'm not.
But as I've posted many times... CO2 CONTROLS Water Vapor FIRST.
That's why CO2 is the issue/what we Have spewed into the Atmo and can lower.

So Ding Has NOW ADMITTED GHG's, including secondarily Water Vapor, Do control the Temperature.


More elaborately:


Water Vapor, CO2, and Global Warming​


MYTH: Water vapor is the most important, abundant greenhouse gas. So if we’re going to control a greenhouse gas, why don’t we control it instead of carbon dioxide (CO2)?

This is a common Misconception in the debate over greenhouse gases and the causes of global warming. Both water vapor and carbon dioxide are important greenhouse gases that play a crucial role in atmospheric warming. A greenhouse gas is a gas that absorbs and re-emits infrared radiation in Earth’s atmosphere, thereby increasing temperatures. Which gas then is to blame for global warming and should be controlled?

Water vapor accounts for 60-70% of the greenhouse effect while CO2 accounts for 25% —a notable difference when numbers alone are compared. It would seem then that water vapor should be climatologists’ primary focus. However, water vapor cannot be controlled by human intervention; it is simply a Product of its environment.

The amount of water vapor the atmosphere can hold is dependent on temperature. Under normal conditions, most of the heat emitted from Earth’s surface in the form of long wave radiation goes into the atmosphere and out into space. However, the presence of increased greenhouse gases traps more long-wave radiation, which means there is more energy in the atmosphere to warm the Earth’s surface.

As the atmospheric temperature rises, more water is evaporated from ground storage, such as that found in our rivers, oceans, soils, and reservoirs. The released water vapor becomes a greenhouse gas where it then absorbs more energy radiated from the Earth and thus warms the atmosphere. The warmer atmosphere results in further water evaporation and the cycle continues. This mechanism is known as a Positive Feedback Loop.

Scientists then need to focus on what is causing air temperatures to rise in the first place. Heat from Other Greenhouse Gases is Causing atmospheric Warming, Leading to an increase in water evaporation and compounding the greenhouse effect. Anthropogenic, or human-derived, CO2 serves as the Primary source of Warming with water vapor playing a Secondary role.

While CO2 occurs naturally in the atmosphere, human interference has interrupted the carbon cycle through activities, such as burning forests, mining, and burning coal. These activities artificially release more carbon from their solid storage to its gaseous state in the lower atmosphere. The rapid increase in CO2 volume has exceeded the amount oceans and vegetation are able to re-absorb. Furthermore, as deforestation continues around the world, there is less vegetation every year available to sequester the carbon. Thus, excess CO2 remains in the atmosphere where it traps heat and stimulates water evaporation."...."



Water Vapor, CO2, and Global Warming | IEDRO


`
Hey, how come wind and solar are so expensive
 
So, the solution is to kill off 90% of the population. See, this is the Marxist population control of the 60’s at work. The fact is, the ocean levels are not rising like your prophet Al Gore prophecized. But, the Biden is destroying the US by forcing electric cars and so on that actually call for more fossil fuel production to run the electrical plants. Dumber and dumber.
You are stupid aren’t you ? The evidence is now overwhelming.
 
FYI : The oceans are rising faster than the scientists predicted. You are not well-informed at all. The rate is increasing each year and it is now predicted the oceans will rise another 10 to 12 inches by the year 2050. ALL coastal cities will be more vulnerable by that time. That probably will be a low estimate too because governments aren't doing enough to combat it. And we're suppose to be an intelligent species.

Is that before or after Guam tips over?
 
So, the solution is to kill off 90% of the population. See, this is the Marxist population control of the 60’s at work. The fact is, the ocean levels are not rising like your prophet Al Gore prophecized. But, the Biden is destroying the US by forcing electric cars and so on that actually call for more fossil fuel production to run the electrical plants. Dumber and dumber.
You seem to think Al Gore is the father of your ” climate change myth.” Just to prove how dumb you are, tell as what this so called myth is about. Let’s see if you can answer it. That you can’t even define what it is, is proof positive you’re illiterate.
 
You are stupid aren’t you ? The evidence is now overwhelming.
No it is not. It’s a group of scientists who get
Money from the leftist government that spew lies for the money. Follow the money. It never lies.
More and more scientists, when the money stops coming in, have come clean and bogus numbers and saying it’s not man that causes changes in the world. The sun does that.
 
You seem to think Al Gore is the father of your ” climate change myth.” Just to prove how dumb you are, tell as what this so called myth is about. Let’s see if you can answer it. That you can’t even define what it is, is proof positive you’re illiterate.
Gore is the father of your population control through global warming.
 
You seem to think Al Gore is the father of your ” climate change myth.” Just to prove how dumb you are, tell as what this so called myth is about. Let’s see if you can answer it. That you can’t even define what it is, is proof positive you’re illiterate.
It appears truths aren’t your friend.
 
It ain’t happening ONLY under the fix News and Newsmax rock.


It's not happening period. Everything you clods produce as evidence are computer models.

Those ain't real.
 

Forum List

Back
Top