How do you explain a ordered universe without a Creator?

[HUGGY]

Simple question, really. Why do so many people have a problem with it? Think about it. Order cannot come from chaos. At least not in this universe. Every bit of scientific knowledge we possess says it just can't happen. The universe is extremely ordered. It also contains vast amounts of information. Information has one source. Intelligence. Earthly intelligence is also the result of information. Can you say catch 22? This proves that information has a source that is outside this universe. What is this source? I believe that it is God. Can you come up with any other explanation?

I would like to just rip you a new a-hole and call you ten kinds of a moron but I won't. I will settle your hash respectfully and clearly so even someone with a childlike mind can comprehend it.

The universe as we see it "now" appears ordered and "created" or "designed". The key word is "now". When you take a thousand coins and toss them on a table some will bounce and some will spin and maybe one or two will roll on their edges and come to a stop. When they all stop moving after a few seconds you may think you see a pattern in how they lay on the top of the table and those on the floor. You may even believe that the way the coins are laying resembles the face of Jesus or Elvis. Our Universe has had many, many billions of years to have had 99.9 % of all the collisions it will ever have going forward. What is left in our universe is like the one or two coins on the table standing on their edges. A MIRACLE! No..not a miracle just the laws of probability.

Right after the big bang there was chaos. Everything was colliding with everything and eventually there was some space between the particles and then the gravity kicks in as the particles grow into chunks and then they start attracting more debris until they become very large and the mass starts getting hot ..then atomic fusion and voila..stars.that have enough density to keep stuff in orbit and the stuff starts condensing into planets with their own gravity and voila...moons and so on and so forth. These encounters of the "stuff" is so common that the whole universe ends up looking like our solar system.

What you are neglecting to understand is the TIME it has taken to get to where the universe is. If you believe that a god just "placed" all the stars and planets and moons in the positions they now are in, where was your god one million years after the Big Bang when shit was still flying all over the place and there were few if any organized orbits of ANYTHING? All that is left standing is all that is left standing..or orbiting. Get it? Got it? Good.

I believe that you know exactly what I mean when I say that the universe is ordered. Here's something else for you to consider. Information contains order. The words I'm typing on the screen right now are the product of intelligence, though you might question that intelligence. Whatever. The words I'm typing are what is known as complex specified information. These words contain meaning and are the result of will and intent. They would not exist had I not created them.

Now, let's take a look at DNA. DNA is identical to a written language, in every way that matters. It has a vocabulary, syntax, it conveys meaningful information that is acted upon by the micro machinery in every living cell.

Now, I've heard the argument that it just chemistry. Stop and think about that. Information is immaterial. It has no mass. It is not dependent on matter or energy for it's existence. Matter and energy are simply the medium used to convey information from one intelligent mind to another.

Are you with me so far?

Now, consider this. It doesn't matter what medium is used to convey information. It does not affect the information in any way. Instead of using my computer and the internet, I could call you on my smartphone and talk to you in person. I could even use smoke signals. Doesn't matter. The information remains unchanged.

So just because information is encoded using chemicals makes no difference to the informational content.

Finally, I want you to think about this. I have already demonstrated that information is the result of intelligence. This is an observable fact, BTW. The question you should be asking yourself is where did the information in DNA come from? And don't even try to say it was the result of time and chance. That won't cut it. Complex specified information, which DNA is classified as, is the result of intelligence. Period!

I underget what you say but the information you choose to use is selected while you are wearing blinders or colored lens's in your glasses. The double helix of life has THOUSANDS of unused potential pairs that if connected would create a much different animal than the one we use to process the information and participate on this Message Board with what language skills we have? mastered? We DID happen randomly. Given enough room and safety WE were bound to eventually occur and only because we didn't all want to play with Silver Back Gorillas by the grace of that intelligence are we still here.

I suppose that next you'll be telling us all about junk DNA. That's still a favorite of the atheists, despite the fact that it has been soundly debunked. Or do you disagree?

You obviously know very little factual information about me. I believe if I spend more time simplifying my statements than presenting an idea in the first place it isn't worth the effort.

We don't need to agree on anything. It's OK.

Atheists like myself don't owe anyone allegiance for not believing in fairy tales.

The latest information discovered about the human genome is all readily available. I suggest you take up your argument with those unlocking those secrets as I am just an onlooker.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Who ever said the universe was ordered?

It's a pretty chaotic place

Yet it follows rules. Ergo, not chaotic, but ordered. Just because we don't understand all the rules or can't comprehend the entire pattern doesn't mean they aren't there.

If you can't comprehend them how do you know they are there?

Isn't that the purpose of study? Of science? To comprehend that which we don't understand?

You didn't answer the question

 

[Skull Pilot]

The universe is expanding, stars will all eventually burn out there will be no thermal energy hence disorder and randomness will prevail IOW heat death

That is the BS creationists preach which you swallow because you have no real understanding of entropy in science. There can be no "heat death" of the universe because there is no temperature at which all motion stops, the 3rd Law of Thermodynamics.

a few degrees above absolute zero is where we will end up. For all intents and purposes the universe will be dead

but as far as we are concerned the end will come way before that

 

[Divine Wind]

Who ever said the universe was ordered?

It's a pretty chaotic place

Yet it follows rules. Ergo, not chaotic, but ordered. Just because we don't understand all the rules or can't comprehend the entire pattern doesn't mean they aren't there.

If you can't comprehend them how do you know they are there?

Isn't that the purpose of study? Of science? To comprehend that which we don't understand?

You didn't answer the question

You aren't reading close enough.

 

[Divine Wind]

The universe is expanding, stars will all eventually burn out there will be no thermal energy hence disorder and randomness will prevail IOW heat death

That is the BS creationists preach which you swallow because you have no real understanding of entropy in science. There can be no "heat death" of the universe because there is no temperature at which all motion stops, the 3rd Law of Thermodynamics.

a few degrees above absolute zero is where we will end up. For all intents and purposes the universe will be dead

but as far as we are concerned the end will come way before that

Correct.

As posted twice above: The Big Crunch, the Big Freeze and the Big Rip - The Big Bang and the Big Crunch - The Physics of the Universe

 

[Divine Wind]

The universe is not proven to end in a Big Chill, as you call it. That's simply speculation.

The physical evidence supports it. The Universe is not only expanding, but accelerating in it's expansion. Do you think God will reach out and stop it?

 

[Mudda]

The universe is not proven to end in a Big Chill, as you call it. That's simply speculation.

The physical evidence supports it. The Universe is not only expanding, but accelerating in it's expansion. Do you think God will reach out and stop it?

We can't say for certain what will happen, the Chill thing is a theory, and even if a really good one, just still a theory.

 

[Divine Wind]

The universe is not proven to end in a Big Chill, as you call it. That's simply speculation.

The physical evidence supports it. The Universe is not only expanding, but accelerating in it's expansion. Do you think God will reach out and stop it?

We can't say for certain what will happen, the Chill thing is a theory, and even if a really good one, just still a theory.

Nonetheless, all the evidence points to the Big Chill.

Are you one of those who say Evolution is "just still a theory"?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Who ever said the universe was ordered?

It's a pretty chaotic place

Yet it follows rules. Ergo, not chaotic, but ordered. Just because we don't understand all the rules or can't comprehend the entire pattern doesn't mean they aren't there.

If you can't comprehend them how do you know they are there?

Isn't that the purpose of study? Of science? To comprehend that which we don't understand?

You didn't answer the question

You aren't reading close enough.

No you didn't answer the question.

How do you know the rules are there to find?

 

[Mudda]

The universe is not proven to end in a Big Chill, as you call it. That's simply speculation.

The physical evidence supports it. The Universe is not only expanding, but accelerating in it's expansion. Do you think God will reach out and stop it?

We can't say for certain what will happen, the Chill thing is a theory, and even if a really good one, just still a theory.

Nonetheless, all the evidence points to the Big Chill.

Are you one of those who say Evolution is "just still a theory"?

No, evolution is pretty well proven for me. As for the end of the universe, that's far from proven. Dark matter could be found to be elastic and eventually snap back. Black holes could consume everything then explode into another Big Bang. The size of a universe may be always finite... We might crash into another universe as we expand... Tons of things could still happen.

 

[Divine Wind]

No, evolution is pretty well proven for me. As for the end of the universe, that's far from proven. Dark matter could be found to be elastic and eventually snap back. Black holes could consume everything then explode into another Big Bang. The size of a universe may be always finite... We might crash into another universe as we expand... Tons of things could still happen.

You might want to read up more on what happened at the Big Bang.

 

[Divine Wind]

Yet it follows rules. Ergo, not chaotic, but ordered. Just because we don't understand all the rules or can't comprehend the entire pattern doesn't mean they aren't there.

If you can't comprehend them how do you know they are there?

Isn't that the purpose of study? Of science? To comprehend that which we don't understand?

You didn't answer the question

You aren't reading close enough.

No you didn't answer the question.

How do you know the rules are there to find?

As stated before, we don't. The purpose of science is to understand the natural universe more clearly. We don't find those rules until we come across them.

Did the laws of motion and thermodynamics exist before they were discovered? Did the America's exist before Euro's "discovered" them? Obviously so.

....Clarke's second law
The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible......

 

[Slyhunter]

If you can't comprehend them how do you know they are there?

Isn't that the purpose of study? Of science? To comprehend that which we don't understand?

You didn't answer the question

You aren't reading close enough.

No you didn't answer the question.

How do you know the rules are there to find?

As stated before, we don't. The purpose of science is to understand the natural universe more clearly. We don't find those rules until we come across them.

Did the laws of motion and thermodynamics exist before they were discovered? Did the America's exist before Euro's "discovered" them? Obviously so.

....Clarke's second law
The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible......

But the op assumes that the Universe is ordered. I'm saying it's not. How do you know it's ordered?

 

[Divine Wind]

Isn't that the purpose of study? Of science? To comprehend that which we don't understand?

You didn't answer the question

You aren't reading close enough.

No you didn't answer the question.

How do you know the rules are there to find?

As stated before, we don't. The purpose of science is to understand the natural universe more clearly. We don't find those rules until we come across them.

Did the laws of motion and thermodynamics exist before they were discovered? Did the America's exist before Euro's "discovered" them? Obviously so.

....Clarke's second law
The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible......

But the op assumes that the Universe is ordered. I'm saying it's not. How do you know it's ordered?

It follows rules even if we don't fully understand those rules.

Examples; the search for Higgs-Boson. The nature of dark matter and dark energy. The search for a unified field theory.

 

[Slyhunter]

You didn't answer the question

You aren't reading close enough.

No you didn't answer the question.

How do you know the rules are there to find?

As stated before, we don't. The purpose of science is to understand the natural universe more clearly. We don't find those rules until we come across them.

Did the laws of motion and thermodynamics exist before they were discovered? Did the America's exist before Euro's "discovered" them? Obviously so.

....Clarke's second law
The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible......

But the op assumes that the Universe is ordered. I'm saying it's not. How do you know it's ordered?

It follows rules even if we don't fully understand those rules.

Examples; the search for Higgs-Boson. The nature of dark matter and dark energy. The search for a unified field theory.

If you don't understand the rules how do you know they exist?

 

[Divine Wind]

You aren't reading close enough.

No you didn't answer the question.

How do you know the rules are there to find?

As stated before, we don't. The purpose of science is to understand the natural universe more clearly. We don't find those rules until we come across them.

Did the laws of motion and thermodynamics exist before they were discovered? Did the America's exist before Euro's "discovered" them? Obviously so.

....Clarke's second law
The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible......

But the op assumes that the Universe is ordered. I'm saying it's not. How do you know it's ordered?

It follows rules even if we don't fully understand those rules.

Examples; the search for Higgs-Boson. The nature of dark matter and dark energy. The search for a unified field theory.

If you don't understand the rules how do you know they exist?

That's the purpose of science; to find out the rules.

 

[edthecynic]

The universe is not proven to end in a Big Chill, as you call it. That's simply speculation.

The physical evidence supports it. The Universe is not only expanding, but accelerating in it's expansion. Do you think God will reach out and stop it?

The universe IS accelerating away from us, but that does not require that universe is expanding! It could just as easily be accelerating from the gravitational pull of the universal black hole of the big crunch. This is because when we look out into space we are not looking in a straight line but around the curve of warped space/time so we can't be sure the acceleration we see is an expanding or contracting vortex of warped space/time. We can just as easily be looking in the contracting vortex as looking out the expanding vortex, in both cases we would see an accelerating universe.

 

[Slyhunter]

No you didn't answer the question.

How do you know the rules are there to find?

As stated before, we don't. The purpose of science is to understand the natural universe more clearly. We don't find those rules until we come across them.

Did the laws of motion and thermodynamics exist before they were discovered? Did the America's exist before Euro's "discovered" them? Obviously so.

....Clarke's second law
The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible......

But the op assumes that the Universe is ordered. I'm saying it's not. How do you know it's ordered?

It follows rules even if we don't fully understand those rules.

Examples; the search for Higgs-Boson. The nature of dark matter and dark energy. The search for a unified field theory.

If you don't understand the rules how do you know they exist?

That's the purpose of science; to find out the rules.

But you can't say they exist if you haven't found them out yet. Your making an assumption.
Thus it is a chaotic universe.

 

[Divine Wind]

As stated before, we don't. The purpose of science is to understand the natural universe more clearly. We don't find those rules until we come across them.

Did the laws of motion and thermodynamics exist before they were discovered? Did the America's exist before Euro's "discovered" them? Obviously so.

But the op assumes that the Universe is ordered. I'm saying it's not. How do you know it's ordered?

It follows rules even if we don't fully understand those rules.

Examples; the search for Higgs-Boson. The nature of dark matter and dark energy. The search for a unified field theory.

If you don't understand the rules how do you know they exist?

That's the purpose of science; to find out the rules.

But you can't say they exist if you haven't found them out yet. Your making an assumption.
Thus it is a chaotic universe.

Everything in the Universe follows rules. Feel free to name a single thing that does not. No hurry, I'm patient.

 

[Divine Wind]

The universe is not proven to end in a Big Chill, as you call it. That's simply speculation.

The physical evidence supports it. The Universe is not only expanding, but accelerating in it's expansion. Do you think God will reach out and stop it?

The universe IS accelerating away from us, but that does not require that universe is expanding! It could just as easily be accelerating from the gravitational pull of the universal black hole of the big crunch. This is because when we look out into space we are not looking in a straight line but around the curve of warped space/time so we can't be sure the acceleration we see is an expanding or contracting vortex of warped space/time. We can just as easily be looking in the contracting vortex as looking out the expanding vortex, in both cases we would see an accelerating universe.

You are correct about space/time but not about the expansion of the Universe.

http://phys.org/news/2015-02-fast-universe.html
The Universe is expanding, but how quickly is it expanding? How far away is everything getting from everything else? And how do we know any of this anyway?

When astronomers talk about the expansion of the Universe, they usually express it in terms of the Hubble parameter. First introduced by Edwin Hubble when he demonstrated that more distant galaxies are moving away from us faster than closer ones.The best measurements for this parameter gives a value of about 68 km/s per megaparsec.

Let's recap. Hubble. Universe. Galaxies. Leaving. Further means faster. And then I said something that sounded like "blah blah Lando blah blah Kessel Run 68 km/s per megaparsec". Which translates to if you have a galaxy 1 megaparsec away, that's 3.3 million light years for those of you who haven't seen Star Wars, it would be expanding away from us at a speed of 68 km/s. So, 1 megaparsec in distance means it's racing away at 68 km/s.

This is all because space is expanding everywhere in all places, and as a result distant galaxies appear to be expanding away from us faster than closer ones. There's just more "space" to expand between us and them in the first place. Even better, our Universe was much more dense in the past, as a result the Hubble parameter hasn't always had the same value.

There are two things affecting the Hubble parameter: dark energy, working to drive the Universe outwards, and matter, dark and regular flavor trying to hold it together. Pro tip: The matter side of this fight is currently losing.

Earlier in the Universe, when the Hubble parameter was smaller, matter had a stronger influence due to its higher overall density. Today dark energy is dominant, thus the Hubble parameter is larger, and this is why we talk about the Universe not only expanding but accelerating.



Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2015-02-fast-universe.html#jCp