How much can renewable energy save us?

[Skull Pilot]

and then there's this

Sheerwind Invelox: All Hype, No Substance

In summary

Sheerwind makes radically inappropriate comparisons between their long-disproven approach to wind generation and actually useful wind generation. The numbers show that they are likely about eighteen times worse at generating electricity from moving air than a truly equivalent wind turbine would be, and will require an order of magnitude more material to achieve that.

The claims that they make aren’t supported by their own data, and their data is distorted beyond credible defence. Their device will produce much less electricity at much greater cost than conventional wind generators.

Potential investors: stay away. Current investors: don’t expect to see your money again.

 

[Old Rocks]

Yet they are still investing in wind. That should tell you something.

People do uneconomical things if enough taxpayer subsidies and mandates are involved.

And how many other nations have those subsidies? Not only that, I would like to see the subsidies end, solar and wind can make it on their own, now. It was a good program to get both industries started, but is no longer needed, now that both solar and wind produce electricity far cheaper than do natural gas or coal.

 

[Old Rocks]

and then there's this

Sheerwind Invelox: All Hype, No Substance

In summary

Sheerwind makes radically inappropriate comparisons between their long-disproven approach to wind generation and actually useful wind generation. The numbers show that they are likely about eighteen times worse at generating electricity from moving air than a truly equivalent wind turbine would be, and will require an order of magnitude more material to achieve that.

The claims that they make aren’t supported by their own data, and their data is distorted beyond credible defence. Their device will produce much less electricity at much greater cost than conventional wind generators.

Potential investors: stay away. Current investors: don’t expect to see your money again.

Pretty much a description of the miniature nuclear reactors. We are not the only nation with nuclear engineers, yet no other nations are deploying these reactors. They do not exist.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Yet they are still investing in wind. That should tell you something.

People do uneconomical things if enough taxpayer subsidies and mandates are involved.

And how many other nations have those subsidies? Not only that, I would like to see the subsidies end, solar and wind can make it on their own, now. It was a good program to get both industries started, but is no longer needed, now that both solar and wind produce electricity far cheaper than do natural gas or coal.

And how many other nations have those subsidies?

Germany Votes To Abandon Most Green Energy Subsidies

Spain accumulated $27 billion in debt subsidizing wind and solar power, which greatly damaged the country’s economy. Green energy programs in Spain are estimated to have destroyed 2.2 jobs for every green job created, according to a study by a Spanish scholar funded by the Institute for Energy Research. Spanish economists determined that each green job created in the country cost taxpayers $770,000. Each wind industry job in Spain was estimated to cost $1.3 million to create. Only one out of 10 green jobs created in Spain was permanent.

Spain’s Green Energy Production Crippled Without Subsidy Crutch

The most recent onshore wind farm contracts awarded under the scheme, early last year, were at prices of about £80 per megawatt hour (MWh) – more than double current market prices of about £35/MWh. Consumers will fund the difference through green levies on their energy bills.

Revealed: the great wind farm tax 'con'

It was a good program to get both industries started, but is no longer needed, now that both solar and wind produce electricity far cheaper than do natural gas or coal.

The average German pays 39 cents per kilowatt-hour for electricity due to intense fiscal support for green energy. The average American only spends 10.4 cents per kilowatt-hour.

Shouldn't all that cheap wind and solar give Germany rates cheaper than ours rather than nearly 4 times ours?

 

[Skull Pilot]

and then there's this

Sheerwind Invelox: All Hype, No Substance

In summary

Sheerwind makes radically inappropriate comparisons between their long-disproven approach to wind generation and actually useful wind generation. The numbers show that they are likely about eighteen times worse at generating electricity from moving air than a truly equivalent wind turbine would be, and will require an order of magnitude more material to achieve that.

The claims that they make aren’t supported by their own data, and their data is distorted beyond credible defence. Their device will produce much less electricity at much greater cost than conventional wind generators.

Potential investors: stay away. Current investors: don’t expect to see your money again.

Pretty much a description of the miniature nuclear reactors. We are not the only nation with nuclear engineers, yet no other nations are deploying these reactors. They do not exist.

We had a molten salt reactor running before the DC dickwads shut down our nuclear program

 

[danielpalos]

and then there's this

Sheerwind Invelox: All Hype, No Substance

In summary

Sheerwind makes radically inappropriate comparisons between their long-disproven approach to wind generation and actually useful wind generation. The numbers show that they are likely about eighteen times worse at generating electricity from moving air than a truly equivalent wind turbine would be, and will require an order of magnitude more material to achieve that.

The claims that they make aren’t supported by their own data, and their data is distorted beyond credible defence. Their device will produce much less electricity at much greater cost than conventional wind generators.

Potential investors: stay away. Current investors: don’t expect to see your money again.

darn.

There is still, a lot of vaporware out there.

However, technology is still, improving all the time.

Even classical, wind turbine technology is improving and achieving gains from efficiencies.

 

[danielpalos]

Yet they are still investing in wind. That should tell you something.

People do uneconomical things if enough taxpayer subsidies and mandates are involved.

And how many other nations have those subsidies? Not only that, I would like to see the subsidies end, solar and wind can make it on their own, now. It was a good program to get both industries started, but is no longer needed, now that both solar and wind produce electricity far cheaper than do natural gas or coal.

And how many other nations have those subsidies?

Germany Votes To Abandon Most Green Energy Subsidies

Spain accumulated $27 billion in debt subsidizing wind and solar power, which greatly damaged the country’s economy. Green energy programs in Spain are estimated to have destroyed 2.2 jobs for every green job created, according to a study by a Spanish scholar funded by the Institute for Energy Research. Spanish economists determined that each green job created in the country cost taxpayers $770,000. Each wind industry job in Spain was estimated to cost $1.3 million to create. Only one out of 10 green jobs created in Spain was permanent.

Spain’s Green Energy Production Crippled Without Subsidy Crutch

The most recent onshore wind farm contracts awarded under the scheme, early last year, were at prices of about £80 per megawatt hour (MWh) – more than double current market prices of about £35/MWh. Consumers will fund the difference through green levies on their energy bills.

Revealed: the great wind farm tax 'con'

It was a good program to get both industries started, but is no longer needed, now that both solar and wind produce electricity far cheaper than do natural gas or coal.

The average German pays 39 cents per kilowatt-hour for electricity due to intense fiscal support for green energy. The average American only spends 10.4 cents per kilowatt-hour.

Shouldn't all that cheap wind and solar give Germany rates cheaper than ours rather than nearly 4 times ours?

it will, eventually. startups cost until profitable. same with new technologies.

we would not have fission, but the for the Immense support from a Manhattan Project, before we even considered going to the Moon.

The project expenditure through 1 October 1945 was $1.845 billion, equivalent to less than nine days of wartime spending, and was $2.191 billion when the AEC assumed control on 1 January 1947. Total allocation was $2.4 billion. Over 90% of the cost was for building plants and producing the fissionable materials, and less than 10% for development and production of the weapons.[316][317]

A total of four weapons (the Trinity gadget, Little Boy, Fat Man, and an unused bomb) were produced by the end of 1945, making the average cost per bomb around $500 million in 1945 dollars. By comparison, the project's total cost by the end of 1945 was about 90% of the total spent on the production of US small arms (not including ammunition) and 34% of the total spent on US tanks during the same period.[315]--https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Project#Cost

 

[Old Rocks]

Yet they are still investing in wind. That should tell you something.

People do uneconomical things if enough taxpayer subsidies and mandates are involved.

And how many other nations have those subsidies? Not only that, I would like to see the subsidies end, solar and wind can make it on their own, now. It was a good program to get both industries started, but is no longer needed, now that both solar and wind produce electricity far cheaper than do natural gas or coal.

And how many other nations have those subsidies?

Germany Votes To Abandon Most Green Energy Subsidies

Spain accumulated $27 billion in debt subsidizing wind and solar power, which greatly damaged the country’s economy. Green energy programs in Spain are estimated to have destroyed 2.2 jobs for every green job created, according to a study by a Spanish scholar funded by the Institute for Energy Research. Spanish economists determined that each green job created in the country cost taxpayers $770,000. Each wind industry job in Spain was estimated to cost $1.3 million to create. Only one out of 10 green jobs created in Spain was permanent.

Spain’s Green Energy Production Crippled Without Subsidy Crutch

The most recent onshore wind farm contracts awarded under the scheme, early last year, were at prices of about £80 per megawatt hour (MWh) – more than double current market prices of about £35/MWh. Consumers will fund the difference through green levies on their energy bills.

Revealed: the great wind farm tax 'con'

It was a good program to get both industries started, but is no longer needed, now that both solar and wind produce electricity far cheaper than do natural gas or coal.

The average German pays 39 cents per kilowatt-hour for electricity due to intense fiscal support for green energy. The average American only spends 10.4 cents per kilowatt-hour.

Shouldn't all that cheap wind and solar give Germany rates cheaper than ours rather than nearly 4 times ours?

That cheap wind and solar are the present prices. The past prices were far more. The economies of scale and the amount of research that decreased the prices of solar and wind.

World Energy Hits a Turning Point: Solar That's Cheaper Than Wind

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Yet they are still investing in wind. That should tell you something.

People do uneconomical things if enough taxpayer subsidies and mandates are involved.

And how many other nations have those subsidies? Not only that, I would like to see the subsidies end, solar and wind can make it on their own, now. It was a good program to get both industries started, but is no longer needed, now that both solar and wind produce electricity far cheaper than do natural gas or coal.

And how many other nations have those subsidies?

Germany Votes To Abandon Most Green Energy Subsidies

Spain accumulated $27 billion in debt subsidizing wind and solar power, which greatly damaged the country’s economy. Green energy programs in Spain are estimated to have destroyed 2.2 jobs for every green job created, according to a study by a Spanish scholar funded by the Institute for Energy Research. Spanish economists determined that each green job created in the country cost taxpayers $770,000. Each wind industry job in Spain was estimated to cost $1.3 million to create. Only one out of 10 green jobs created in Spain was permanent.

Spain’s Green Energy Production Crippled Without Subsidy Crutch

The most recent onshore wind farm contracts awarded under the scheme, early last year, were at prices of about £80 per megawatt hour (MWh) – more than double current market prices of about £35/MWh. Consumers will fund the difference through green levies on their energy bills.

Revealed: the great wind farm tax 'con'

It was a good program to get both industries started, but is no longer needed, now that both solar and wind produce electricity far cheaper than do natural gas or coal.

The average German pays 39 cents per kilowatt-hour for electricity due to intense fiscal support for green energy. The average American only spends 10.4 cents per kilowatt-hour.

Shouldn't all that cheap wind and solar give Germany rates cheaper than ours rather than nearly 4 times ours?

That cheap wind and solar are the present prices. The past prices were far more. The economies of scale and the amount of research that decreased the prices of solar and wind.

World Energy Hits a Turning Point: Solar That's Cheaper Than Wind

That cheap wind and solar are the present prices. The past prices were far more.

They stupidly wasted money on "green energy" in the past.
If they had waited until now, their rates would be lower than ours?

When will we see Germany's rates, for instance, drop from 4 times the rates in the US down to merely double our rates? Soon? Never?

Let's hear your prediction.

 

[Skull Pilot]

and then there's this

Sheerwind Invelox: All Hype, No Substance

In summary

Sheerwind makes radically inappropriate comparisons between their long-disproven approach to wind generation and actually useful wind generation. The numbers show that they are likely about eighteen times worse at generating electricity from moving air than a truly equivalent wind turbine would be, and will require an order of magnitude more material to achieve that.

The claims that they make aren’t supported by their own data, and their data is distorted beyond credible defence. Their device will produce much less electricity at much greater cost than conventional wind generators.

Potential investors: stay away. Current investors: don’t expect to see your money again.

darn.

There is still, a lot of vaporware out there.

However, technology is still, improving all the time.

Even classical, wind turbine technology is improving and achieving gains from efficiencies.

it doesn't matter how efficient a wind turbine is because the wind doesn't blow all the time so as real life has shown a wind turbine will only ever produce 25% of its rated capacity so no matter what you do you will have to build 4 windmills to equal the rated output of one windmill

how can you think that is a good investment?

 

[mamooth]

We had a molten salt reactor running before the DC dickwads shut down our nuclear program

Having a reactor is very different from having a safe and economical reactor.

Those with a bit of engineering sense understand the difference between a prototype and something useful in the real world.

 

[Skull Pilot]

We had a molten salt reactor running before the DC dickwads shut down our nuclear program

Having a reactor is very different from having a safe and economical reactor.

Those with a bit of engineering sense understand the difference between a prototype and something useful in the real world.

It was safe
safer than any light water reactor so was the integral fast reactor
both were proven to completely self limiting

Any nuclear engineer will tell you that a molten salt reactor will be cheaper and safer than any reactor we have had running at scale

The pluses are many

No need for large amounts of water for cooling
runs at atmosphere so no huge concrete and steel containment domes
is self limiting
can be mass produced and shipped to the install site
can be buried underground
will burn spent fuel from light water reactors
and unlike wind and solar it will put out 90% of its rated capacity 24/7/365

 

[expat_panama]

...Having a reactor is very different from having a safe and economical reactor

It was safe...

What usually seems to happen is that the green criteria for "safe" when it comes to nukes ends up being that if it's possible then it's by definition "unsafe".

 

[Skull Pilot]

...Having a reactor is very different from having a safe and economical reactor

It was safe...

What usually seems to happen is that the green criteria for "safe" when it comes to nukes ends up being that if it's possible then it's by definition "unsafe".

nuclear is our best option for the reliable abundant emission free power we need now and in foreseeable future.

I love how all these science loving renewable people discard nuclear science with no more thought than they give turning on a light

 

[expat_panama]

...science loving renewable people discard nuclear science...

What happens to me is I find myself in a very awkward position at family reunions when my left-wing kin say that using petro-fuels is immoral --even while they themselves are buying and using gasoline.

Just like nukes. They say it's wrong to use it while I watch them use it.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

...science loving renewable people discard nuclear science...

What happens to me is I find myself in a very awkward position at family reunions when my left-wing kin say that using petro-fuels is immoral --even while they themselves are buying and using gasoline.

Just like nukes. They say it's wrong to use it while I watch them use it.

And they say CO2 is the worst thing ever...gonna kill us all...but nuclear is worse.

 

[danielpalos]

and then there's this

Sheerwind Invelox: All Hype, No Substance

In summary

Sheerwind makes radically inappropriate comparisons between their long-disproven approach to wind generation and actually useful wind generation. The numbers show that they are likely about eighteen times worse at generating electricity from moving air than a truly equivalent wind turbine would be, and will require an order of magnitude more material to achieve that.

The claims that they make aren’t supported by their own data, and their data is distorted beyond credible defence. Their device will produce much less electricity at much greater cost than conventional wind generators.

Potential investors: stay away. Current investors: don’t expect to see your money again.

darn.

There is still, a lot of vaporware out there.

However, technology is still, improving all the time.

Even classical, wind turbine technology is improving and achieving gains from efficiencies.

it doesn't matter how efficient a wind turbine is because the wind doesn't blow all the time so as real life has shown a wind turbine will only ever produce 25% of its rated capacity so no matter what you do you will have to build 4 windmills to equal the rated output of one windmill

how can you think that is a good investment?

we already covered this; an upgraded grid means wind energy collection can happen anywhere the wind blows.

 

[Old Rocks]

and then there's this

Sheerwind Invelox: All Hype, No Substance

In summary

Sheerwind makes radically inappropriate comparisons between their long-disproven approach to wind generation and actually useful wind generation. The numbers show that they are likely about eighteen times worse at generating electricity from moving air than a truly equivalent wind turbine would be, and will require an order of magnitude more material to achieve that.

The claims that they make aren’t supported by their own data, and their data is distorted beyond credible defence. Their device will produce much less electricity at much greater cost than conventional wind generators.

Potential investors: stay away. Current investors: don’t expect to see your money again.

darn.

There is still, a lot of vaporware out there.

However, technology is still, improving all the time.

Even classical, wind turbine technology is improving and achieving gains from efficiencies.

it doesn't matter how efficient a wind turbine is because the wind doesn't blow all the time so as real life has shown a wind turbine will only ever produce 25% of its rated capacity so no matter what you do you will have to build 4 windmills to equal the rated output of one windmill

how can you think that is a good investment?

Silly ass, if the windmill produces electricity at half the cost of the coal fired plant, then it is a good investment. Not only that, the dropping cost of the grid storage batteries will make both solar and wind 24/7.

 

[Old Rocks]

...science loving renewable people discard nuclear science...

What happens to me is I find myself in a very awkward position at family reunions when my left-wing kin say that using petro-fuels is immoral --even while they themselves are buying and using gasoline.

Just like nukes. They say it's wrong to use it while I watch them use it.

And they say CO2 is the worst thing ever...gonna kill us all...but nuclear is worse.

Fukushima, and nuclear is damned expensive electricity.

 

[Old Rocks]

Yet they are still investing in wind. That should tell you something.

People do uneconomical things if enough taxpayer subsidies and mandates are involved.

And how many other nations have those subsidies? Not only that, I would like to see the subsidies end, solar and wind can make it on their own, now. It was a good program to get both industries started, but is no longer needed, now that both solar and wind produce electricity far cheaper than do natural gas or coal.

And how many other nations have those subsidies?

Germany Votes To Abandon Most Green Energy Subsidies

Spain accumulated $27 billion in debt subsidizing wind and solar power, which greatly damaged the country’s economy. Green energy programs in Spain are estimated to have destroyed 2.2 jobs for every green job created, according to a study by a Spanish scholar funded by the Institute for Energy Research. Spanish economists determined that each green job created in the country cost taxpayers $770,000. Each wind industry job in Spain was estimated to cost $1.3 million to create. Only one out of 10 green jobs created in Spain was permanent.

Spain’s Green Energy Production Crippled Without Subsidy Crutch

The most recent onshore wind farm contracts awarded under the scheme, early last year, were at prices of about £80 per megawatt hour (MWh) – more than double current market prices of about £35/MWh. Consumers will fund the difference through green levies on their energy bills.

Revealed: the great wind farm tax 'con'

It was a good program to get both industries started, but is no longer needed, now that both solar and wind produce electricity far cheaper than do natural gas or coal.

The average German pays 39 cents per kilowatt-hour for electricity due to intense fiscal support for green energy. The average American only spends 10.4 cents per kilowatt-hour.

Shouldn't all that cheap wind and solar give Germany rates cheaper than ours rather than nearly 4 times ours?

That cheap wind and solar are the present prices. The past prices were far more. The economies of scale and the amount of research that decreased the prices of solar and wind.

World Energy Hits a Turning Point: Solar That's Cheaper Than Wind

That cheap wind and solar are the present prices. The past prices were far more.

They stupidly wasted money on "green energy" in the past.
If they had waited until now, their rates would be lower than ours?

When will we see Germany's rates, for instance, drop from 4 times the rates in the US down to merely double our rates? Soon? Never?

Let's hear your prediction.

No, they did not. And you might have a look at what the latitude of Germany is. Solar is fine there in the summer, not so good in the winter. The large array solar panel setups in Germany and many other places created the demand and competition in the solar industry that has resulted in the very cheap panels of today. Not money wasted at all, in the larger view.

Here in the US, where we have been putting a lot of renewables on the grid, the increase in costs has been less steep than where we have not.