How to get to heaven...

[Vox]

Vox, faith without works is dead. ( you are correct in that works is the evidence of faith! ) Faith without enduring unto the end is not going to get us into heaven either. Those that endure until the end? The same shall be saved. That is what Jesus said. Now I have studied the history of some Catholic saints who endured until the end. Savonarolla, John Hus, John of the Cross, Michael Molinos to name a few..... many more were executed for their faith in God. I've also been told of stories where the communists came into a church to execute those who wouldn't deny their faith and all but a handful stayed behind. The communists then locked the doors and said, now lets have church. They were believers who didn't want any false christians to know who they were and expose their identities. I believe in the future we may very well have the opportunity to die for our faith. I do not believe in the rapture as some here do. When the hard times hit we need to be ready.

I remember the story of some russian communists who marched a group of christians out onto a frozen lake and left them there to die. They said, if you deny Christ? You can come in off the ice. They said no. The story is they were ordered go onto the ice, strip down and lay down until they died. The russian soldiers built a campfire at the edge of the lake waiting for them to die. After some time one of the christians came in off the ice and denied his faith and went home. One of the russian soldiers said, I'll take his place, stripped down went out on the ice and layed down and froze to death in the other christians place. I imagine to myself that the one who walked in off the ice and denied his faith was a big talker and very sure of himself that he would be the one to surely go to heaven. He probably believed in the rapture and never considered he would be put in such a predicament.

The truth is those that endure until the end shall be saved. It is best to trust in God, be humble in our faith and not be presuming upon the grace of God. I've never heard of a Christian saying I'm sure I will make it to heaven but I'm not so sure about you. I pray every night God have mercy upon me, forgive me of anything I have said or done that has offended you or anyone else. Show me any hidden thing that is displeasing to you so I can get rid of it. Give me your strength to endure whatever may come. Only God knows the heart of each human being. God is faithful. I believe God. - Jeri

you have put it beautifully. Yep, there are thousands of stories of modern day martyrs in the soviet gulag - both Catholics and Orthodox. probably some others, too, but they are less known, as the other religious groups are less represented throughout that territory.

That is the example of works. Not everyone is called to such an extent, but those are the most beautiful ones.
There were many throughout the whole Eastern bloc who could serve as an example in this combination - both faith and works.

Thanks, Vox! I know of many stories of Catholics who refused to deny their faith in Christ, priests and nuns held in communist prisons who refused to blaspheme the eucharist or do some blasphemous act for the communists. Richard Wurmbrand gave many accounts of such people in his book Marx and Satan. Which I read and have given away to a friend so they can read it. Otherwise I would quote some stories here. He was held in Communist prisons and tortured for Christ for 17 years and he met people of many different faiths, Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopals, Pentacostal, Methodist....... I am quite sure if he were here he would explain the difference in believing one has faith and having one's faith tested to know one has faith. These are two completely different things and as I recall? None of them denied Christ. Not one that I can recall. It seems to be the assumption among the evangelical believers that we will not be here for any such sufferings because as Americans we are special and would be raptured before we were ever tortured for Christ by Communists. As the days draw nearer to Communist rule inside the USA I believe that anything is possible and my prayer is we are all ready for "anything." It feels like the beginnings of Matthew 24 already to me.

There was just one ecumenical Church of Christ in the soviet GULAG.
It included everybody, even non-Christian believers - the stories are described by many survivors, witnesses and even GULAG workers themselves ( yes, there were people of faith and character even on THAT side).

As for the rupture... I don't believe it. neither do I believe in millennium and other Armageddon predictions. I hold mostly preterist views of the Revelation with some of the symbolic hint to that. But I do not think the people who wholeheartedly believe the other way are in any way wrong - and that is the beauty of being a Christian
I just think it is going to be as simple as Jesus Himself described it. I just stick to the scripture.

 

[theword]

you have put it beautifully. Yep, there are thousands of stories of modern day martyrs in the soviet gulag - both Catholics and Orthodox. probably some others, too, but they are less known, as the other religious groups are less represented throughout that territory.

That is the example of works. Not everyone is called to such an extent, but those are the most beautiful ones.
There were many throughout the whole Eastern bloc who could serve as an example in this combination - both faith and works.

Thanks, Vox! I know of many stories of Catholics who refused to deny their faith in Christ, priests and nuns held in communist prisons who refused to blaspheme the eucharist or do some blasphemous act for the communists. Richard Wurmbrand gave many accounts of such people in his book Marx and Satan. Which I read and have given away to a friend so they can read it. Otherwise I would quote some stories here. He was held in Communist prisons and tortured for Christ for 17 years and he met people of many different faiths, Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopals, Pentacostal, Methodist....... I am quite sure if he were here he would explain the difference in believing one has faith and having one's faith tested to know one has faith. These are two completely different things and as I recall? None of them denied Christ. Not one that I can recall. It seems to be the assumption among the evangelical believers that we will not be here for any such sufferings because as Americans we are special and would be raptured before we were ever tortured for Christ by Communists. As the days draw nearer to Communist rule inside the USA I believe that anything is possible and my prayer is we are all ready for "anything." It feels like the beginnings of Matthew 24 already to me.

There was just one ecumenical Church of Christ in the soviet GULAG.
It included everybody, even non-Christian believers - the stories are described by many survivors, witnesses and even GULAG workers themselves ( yes, there were people of faith and character even on THAT side).

As for the rupture... I don't believe it. neither do I believe in millennium and other Armageddon predictions. I hold mostly preterist views of the Revelation with some of the symbolic hint to that. But I do not think the people who wholeheartedly believe the other way are in any way wrong - and that is the beauty of being a Christian
I just think it is going to be as simple as Jesus Himself described it. I just stick to the scripture.

The beauty of Christianity is that all Christians can lie to each other ( buying and selling in the beast ) but all agree on their false god named Jesus. It's simply amazing.

 

[Vox]

Thanks, Vox! I know of many stories of Catholics who refused to deny their faith in Christ, priests and nuns held in communist prisons who refused to blaspheme the eucharist or do some blasphemous act for the communists. Richard Wurmbrand gave many accounts of such people in his book Marx and Satan. Which I read and have given away to a friend so they can read it. Otherwise I would quote some stories here. He was held in Communist prisons and tortured for Christ for 17 years and he met people of many different faiths, Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopals, Pentacostal, Methodist....... I am quite sure if he were here he would explain the difference in believing one has faith and having one's faith tested to know one has faith. These are two completely different things and as I recall? None of them denied Christ. Not one that I can recall. It seems to be the assumption among the evangelical believers that we will not be here for any such sufferings because as Americans we are special and would be raptured before we were ever tortured for Christ by Communists. As the days draw nearer to Communist rule inside the USA I believe that anything is possible and my prayer is we are all ready for "anything." It feels like the beginnings of Matthew 24 already to me.

There was just one ecumenical Church of Christ in the soviet GULAG.
It included everybody, even non-Christian believers - the stories are described by many survivors, witnesses and even GULAG workers themselves ( yes, there were people of faith and character even on THAT side).

As for the rupture... I don't believe it. neither do I believe in millennium and other Armageddon predictions. I hold mostly preterist views of the Revelation with some of the symbolic hint to that. But I do not think the people who wholeheartedly believe the other way are in any way wrong - and that is the beauty of being a Christian
I just think it is going to be as simple as Jesus Himself described it. I just stick to the scripture.

The beauty of Christianity is that all Christians can lie to each other ( buying and selling in the beast ) but all agree on their false god named Jesus. It's simply amazing.

yawn.

you are less entertaining than you were previously. you start to repeat yourself and that is BORING.
Please, regroup

 

[Vandalshandle]

The adventures of God-man!
Tom the Dancing Bug Comic Strip on GoComics.com

 

[Mertex]

Ah, Judas. Everyone is so quick to demonize him. In my humble opinion, he should be among the forefront of the saints.

Really, why is that? Because he betrayed Jesus? Because he was stealing from the treasury? Because he thought Jesus was going to become the ruler then and there and he (Judas) would be sitting pretty, and when it didn't work out, he threw Jesus under the bus?
Because rather than ask forgiveness he took the chicken way out?

Or do you have some other information that we're missing?

you have not heard the modern day theory that if not of Judas, Jesus Christ would not be able to accomplish His mission.
That is widely circulated amongst some circles.

Unfortunately there are always greedy people always looking to take care of themselves, and if Judas hadn't stepped up to the plate, someone else would've taken his place. Of course, God knew there would be many that would be willing to have Jesus done away with, or He would've come up with a different plan.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I am not surprised to learn about the believers among the GULAG workers, Vox. Richard Wurmbrand talks about those inside the communist party who were believers and saved the lives of other believers and also let them know ahead of time what was coming to those who were not in prison. They were like secret messengers and no one knew who they were. This was difficult for them in that the believers who didn't know this didn't trust them thinking they were the enemy yet those they would help secretly would learn of it but not be able to tell anyone else. So God has people everywhere. This is surely true.

 

[Drake_Roberts]

God is too busy to bother with USMB. He would delegate it.

True...

Maybe he would administer his arguments to his typers? Or, maybe God simply never tires and thus just does it all himself.

God would text an acolyte and say 'take care of this for me'. Then they would post something ...hypothetically anyway.

So how would we know?

I don't know. Beats me.

Wonder what it would be like to have God text you and tell you to post something...

 

[Drake_Roberts]

You sound like Judas Iscariot. You think you know so much, but are just a loud noise.....with no substance. Your words give you away.

Ah, Judas. Everyone is so quick to demonize him. In my humble opinion, he should be among the forefront of the saints.

Really, why is that? Because he betrayed Jesus? Because he was stealing from the treasury? Because he thought Jesus was going to become the ruler then and there and he (Judas) would be sitting pretty, and when it didn't work out, he threw Jesus under the bus?
Because rather than ask forgiveness he took the chicken way out?

Or do you have some other information that we're missing?

Isn't Catholicism the religion of forgiveness? Of mercy? Peter denied and rejected Christ, yet everyone practically worships him! Now Judas, yes he did make the greatest sin and betray Jesus, but what did he do afterwards? He went back to the priests full of guilt and sorrow and asked for them to set Jesus free in return for the money. Funny how everyone forgets that, eh? Never fits in with their narrow-minded view of the world.

He did not try to ask for forgiveness, he tried to earn it. What did Peter do? He went and cried about it. Judas? Tried to repent and have Jesus released.

Haven't you ever betrayed someone before? Done something wrong? But it was to late to ask forgiveness? So you took the "easy way out" and tried to make up for what you did. Sounds familiar.

That is why he should be one of the Church's leading saints.

 

[Drake_Roberts]

you can not pretend on something that does not exist
In order to get to heaven giving to the poor is not enough even if one would beleive a non-existent issue of the philantropic atheist existed

I apologize. Giving to the poor is what is most often preached in the Church these days. Tell me, what message does Jesus teach over and over again? Oh yes, giving to the poor and helping those in need. I did not feel like listing all of Michael's good deeds, as it would take forever to write, being as he is hypothetical. Michael is, in theory, about as good a human being as you can get.

.

Except that is definitely not the message and it is not going to bring you salvation alone
One can give to the poor and still not be in the realm of salvation.

Jesus said "The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me." Matthew 26:11.
And that is the truth.

Giving to the poor is not at all important in the big picture.
There are plenty of people who were never giving to the poor ( as they could not) and they are still the Saints.

In regards to your other statement, it is possible to pretend on things that don't exist. Children pretend on the zombie apocalypse, fairy tales, angels, etc. Scientists pretend on advancements that do not exist yet. Hippies pretend on world peace. You pretend on the intelligence of your arguments. There is a certain word for it... imagination.

and what is this blabber about? parading your writing skills? they don't impress me. And they do not prove that your hypothetical example is possible. As the darkness can not be the light.

Ah, but there would be no light without darkness. No person can exist without the darkness in their souls. Even Eden was tainted from the start by Satan.

The supposed "blabber" was to illustrate the idiocy of an earlier comment you made. I'll even bold it for you. In fact, I take back my comment. You lack any imagination whatsoever.

And I said that giving to the poor was just an example! I listed other good things Michael did in addition.

And quoting that saying of Jesus does not help you. Are you saying that we shouldn't help the poor? That we shouldn't strive to end poverty? How is that very Christian of you?

 

[Chuckt]

Ah, Judas. Everyone is so quick to demonize him. In my humble opinion, he should be among the forefront of the saints.

Really, why is that? Because he betrayed Jesus? Because he was stealing from the treasury? Because he thought Jesus was going to become the ruler then and there and he (Judas) would be sitting pretty, and when it didn't work out, he threw Jesus under the bus?
Because rather than ask forgiveness he took the chicken way out?

Or do you have some other information that we're missing?

Isn't Catholicism the religion of forgiveness? Of mercy? Peter denied and rejected Christ, yet everyone practically worships him! Now Judas, yes he did make the greatest sin and betray Jesus, but what did he do afterwards? He went back to the priests full of guilt and sorrow and asked for them to set Jesus free in return for the money. Funny how everyone forgets that, eh? Never fits in with their narrow-minded view of the world.

He did not try to ask for forgiveness, he tried to earn it. What did Peter do? He went and cried about it. Judas? Tried to repent and have Jesus released.

Haven't you ever betrayed someone before? Done something wrong? But it was to late to ask forgiveness? So you took the "easy way out" and tried to make up for what you did. Sounds familiar.

That is why he should be one of the Church's leading saints.

Mark 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent (G3340, metanoe&#333.

What Jesus was preaching was for men to repent and the word metanoeo is used which means:

1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

When the Bible talks about Judas repenting, it uses a different word.

Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented (G3338, metamelomai) himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

1) it is a care to one afterwards
a) it repents one, to repent one's self

What Judas had was "regret" and not true repentance. True repentance is metanoeo which means "to change one's mind". It tells us the word for repentance in Judas' case was "regret" and not a change of mind because he hung himself.
Instead of Judas going to Jesus or God and asking for forgiveness, Judas went to the religious leaders and addressed them:

"Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that" (Matthew 27:4)

How did Judas see to it or in King James "see thou to that"? How did Judas see to it? He hung himself instead of repenting.


True repentance is turning from yourself to God:

Acts 14:15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

Judas was concerned about himself so he turned not to God but unto the religious leaders in Matthew 27:4 for forgiveness.

(C) Chuckt
Please don't steal!

 

[Drake_Roberts]

Ah, Judas. Everyone is so quick to demonize him. In my humble opinion, he should be among the forefront of the saints.

Really, why is that? Because he betrayed Jesus? Because he was stealing from the treasury? Because he thought Jesus was going to become the ruler then and there and he (Judas) would be sitting pretty, and when it didn't work out, he threw Jesus under the bus?
Because rather than ask forgiveness he took the chicken way out?

Or do you have some other information that we're missing?

you have not heard the modern day theory that if not of Judas, Jesus Christ would not be able to accomplish His mission.
That is widely circulated amongst some circles.

Like mine. Nobody would worship Jesus if he hadn't died on the cross. If not for Judas, half of the Old Testament prophecies wouldn't have been fulfilled. How well do you think the early Catholic Church would have survived if not for being able to claim that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament? The Chief Priests and elders would have a much easier time trying to dismantle the religion piece by piece.

 

[Drake_Roberts]

you have put it beautifully. Yep, there are thousands of stories of modern day martyrs in the soviet gulag - both Catholics and Orthodox. probably some others, too, but they are less known, as the other religious groups are less represented throughout that territory.

That is the example of works. Not everyone is called to such an extent, but those are the most beautiful ones.
There were many throughout the whole Eastern bloc who could serve as an example in this combination - both faith and works.

Thanks, Vox! I know of many stories of Catholics who refused to deny their faith in Christ, priests and nuns held in communist prisons who refused to blaspheme the eucharist or do some blasphemous act for the communists. Richard Wurmbrand gave many accounts of such people in his book Marx and Satan. Which I read and have given away to a friend so they can read it. Otherwise I would quote some stories here. He was held in Communist prisons and tortured for Christ for 17 years and he met people of many different faiths, Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopals, Pentacostal, Methodist....... I am quite sure if he were here he would explain the difference in believing one has faith and having one's faith tested to know one has faith. These are two completely different things and as I recall? None of them denied Christ. Not one that I can recall. It seems to be the assumption among the evangelical believers that we will not be here for any such sufferings because as Americans we are special and would be raptured before we were ever tortured for Christ by Communists. As the days draw nearer to Communist rule inside the USA I believe that anything is possible and my prayer is we are all ready for "anything." It feels like the beginnings of Matthew 24 already to me.

There was just one ecumenical Church of Christ in the soviet GULAG.
It included everybody, even non-Christian believers - the stories are described by many survivors, witnesses and even GULAG workers themselves ( yes, there were people of faith and character even on THAT side).

As for the rupture... I don't believe it. neither do I believe in millennium and other Armageddon predictions. I hold mostly preterist views of the Revelation with some of the symbolic hint to that. But I do not think the people who wholeheartedly believe the other way are in any way wrong - and that is the beauty of being a Christian
I just think it is going to be as simple as Jesus Himself described it. I just stick to the scripture.

How Jesus described it? With all of the destruction and death and stuff? And by the way, Revelation is technically scripture.

 

[FactFinder]

Really, why is that? Because he betrayed Jesus? Because he was stealing from the treasury? Because he thought Jesus was going to become the ruler then and there and he (Judas) would be sitting pretty, and when it didn't work out, he threw Jesus under the bus?
Because rather than ask forgiveness he took the chicken way out?

Or do you have some other information that we're missing?

you have not heard the modern day theory that if not of Judas, Jesus Christ would not be able to accomplish His mission.
That is widely circulated amongst some circles.

Like mine. Nobody would worship Jesus if he hadn't died on the cross. If not for Judas, half of the Old Testament prophecies wouldn't have been fulfilled. How well do you think the early Catholic Church would have survived if not for being able to claim that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament? The Chief Priests and elders would have a much easier time trying to dismantle the religion piece by piece.

and...yet, all of these statements are nothing in the face of God. Have mercy on the ignorance. As if I knew anything....

 

[Drake_Roberts]

Really, why is that? Because he betrayed Jesus? Because he was stealing from the treasury? Because he thought Jesus was going to become the ruler then and there and he (Judas) would be sitting pretty, and when it didn't work out, he threw Jesus under the bus?
Because rather than ask forgiveness he took the chicken way out?

Or do you have some other information that we're missing?

Isn't Catholicism the religion of forgiveness? Of mercy? Peter denied and rejected Christ, yet everyone practically worships him! Now Judas, yes he did make the greatest sin and betray Jesus, but what did he do afterwards? He went back to the priests full of guilt and sorrow and asked for them to set Jesus free in return for the money. Funny how everyone forgets that, eh? Never fits in with their narrow-minded view of the world.

He did not try to ask for forgiveness, he tried to earn it. What did Peter do? He went and cried about it. Judas? Tried to repent and have Jesus released.

Haven't you ever betrayed someone before? Done something wrong? But it was to late to ask forgiveness? So you took the "easy way out" and tried to make up for what you did. Sounds familiar.

That is why he should be one of the Church's leading saints.

Mark 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent (G3340, metanoe&#333.

What Jesus was preaching was for men to repent and the word metanoeo is used which means:

1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

When the Bible talks about Judas repenting, it uses a different word.

Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented (G3338, metamelomai) himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

1) it is a care to one afterwards
a) it repents one, to repent one's self

What Judas had was "regret" and not true repentance. True repentance is metanoeo which means "to change one's mind". It tells us the word for repentance in Judas' case was "regret" and not a change of mind because he hung himself.
Instead of Judas going to Jesus or God and asking for forgiveness, Judas went to the religious leaders and addressed them:

"Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that" (Matthew 27:4)

How did Judas see to it or in King James "see thou to that"? How did Judas see to it? He hung himself instead of repenting.


True repentance is turning from yourself to God:

Acts 14:15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

Judas was concerned about himself so he turned not to God but unto the religious leaders in Matthew 27:4 for forgiveness.

(C) Chuckt
Please don't steal!

Who wrote those Gospels and passages again? Ah, Paul, a former non-believer who probably believed everything he was told on the matter, and followers of Jesus who, even many years later, probably hated Judas for what he did.

The Gospel writers were human, not God.

 

[Drake_Roberts]

you have not heard the modern day theory that if not of Judas, Jesus Christ would not be able to accomplish His mission.
That is widely circulated amongst some circles.

Like mine. Nobody would worship Jesus if he hadn't died on the cross. If not for Judas, half of the Old Testament prophecies wouldn't have been fulfilled. How well do you think the early Catholic Church would have survived if not for being able to claim that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament? The Chief Priests and elders would have a much easier time trying to dismantle the religion piece by piece.

and...yet, all of these statements are nothing in the face of God. Have mercy on the ignorance. As if I knew anything....

True, those statements and prophecies and what not probably don't mean much to God. But they do to his believers. All over this forum you see the devout spamming passages to prove a point, a viewpoint I understand quite well, albeit one I outgrew by the end of seventh grade. What if those statements were proven to mean nothing? What words would fill the arsenals of believers then?

In ancient times, you could make the point that the Gods of the Assyrians or of the Romans were as real or more real than the God of Jacob. They certainly had more followers and believers. Yet Judaism and Christianity prevailed. If Jesus had been disregarded as a heretic by everyone after he died on the cross, would we still be worshipping him? No, we'd probably all be worshipping the Germanic or Roman Gods now.

Those scriptures may mean nothing to God, but they do to his followers. And without human slaves, any God is nothing.

 

[Chuckt]

Isn't Catholicism the religion of forgiveness? Of mercy? Peter denied and rejected Christ, yet everyone practically worships him! Now Judas, yes he did make the greatest sin and betray Jesus, but what did he do afterwards? He went back to the priests full of guilt and sorrow and asked for them to set Jesus free in return for the money. Funny how everyone forgets that, eh? Never fits in with their narrow-minded view of the world.

He did not try to ask for forgiveness, he tried to earn it. What did Peter do? He went and cried about it. Judas? Tried to repent and have Jesus released.

Haven't you ever betrayed someone before? Done something wrong? But it was to late to ask forgiveness? So you took the "easy way out" and tried to make up for what you did. Sounds familiar.

That is why he should be one of the Church's leading saints.

Mark 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent (G3340, metanoe&#333.

What Jesus was preaching was for men to repent and the word metanoeo is used which means:

1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

When the Bible talks about Judas repenting, it uses a different word.

Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented (G3338, metamelomai) himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

1) it is a care to one afterwards
a) it repents one, to repent one's self

What Judas had was "regret" and not true repentance. True repentance is metanoeo which means "to change one's mind". It tells us the word for repentance in Judas' case was "regret" and not a change of mind because he hung himself.
Instead of Judas going to Jesus or God and asking for forgiveness, Judas went to the religious leaders and addressed them:

"Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that" (Matthew 27:4)

How did Judas see to it or in King James "see thou to that"? How did Judas see to it? He hung himself instead of repenting.


True repentance is turning from yourself to God:

Acts 14:15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

Judas was concerned about himself so he turned not to God but unto the religious leaders in Matthew 27:4 for forgiveness.

(C) Chuckt
Please don't steal!

Who wrote those Gospels and passages again? Ah, Paul, a former non-believer who probably believed everything he was told on the matter, and followers of Jesus who, even many years later, probably hated Judas for what he did.

The Gospel writers were human, not God.

Paul's gospel is in 1 Corinthians 15. Paul didn't write Matthew, Mark, Luke or John.

Scripture is God breathed (II Timothy 3:16).

If Judas repented, would he have sinned by taking his life? That is contradictory to say that he repented and also sinned.

Judas was sorry that he got caught. There is a difference between being sorry you got caught and true repentance.

Going from a little sin to stealing from the money bag to betraying Jesus for blood money wasn't just a slight little mistake that happened by accident. It was a gradual widening of Judas' walk away from doing what was right over a period of time. For me to get to that position that Judas got, I have to willingly ignore my conscience, I have to push myself over my values and my conscience. I have to fight my conscience to get there. This wasn't a flash in the pan experience. This is someone who over time move far and far away from Jesus. He was sorry he got caught. He didn't care or he wouldn't have done it.

 

[Gracie]

Needs to be repeated:

The Gospel writers were human, not God.

 

[Vox]

I apologize. Giving to the poor is what is most often preached in the Church these days. Tell me, what message does Jesus teach over and over again? Oh yes, giving to the poor and helping those in need. I did not feel like listing all of Michael's good deeds, as it would take forever to write, being as he is hypothetical. Michael is, in theory, about as good a human being as you can get.

.

Except that is definitely not the message and it is not going to bring you salvation alone
One can give to the poor and still not be in the realm of salvation.

Jesus said "The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me." Matthew 26:11.
And that is the truth.

Giving to the poor is not at all important in the big picture.
There are plenty of people who were never giving to the poor ( as they could not) and they are still the Saints.

In regards to your other statement, it is possible to pretend on things that don't exist. Children pretend on the zombie apocalypse, fairy tales, angels, etc. Scientists pretend on advancements that do not exist yet. Hippies pretend on world peace. You pretend on the intelligence of your arguments. There is a certain word for it... imagination.

and what is this blabber about? parading your writing skills? they don't impress me. And they do not prove that your hypothetical example is possible. As the darkness can not be the light.

Ah, but there would be no light without darkness. No person can exist without the darkness in their souls. Even Eden was tainted from the start by Satan.

The supposed "blabber" was to illustrate the idiocy of an earlier comment you made. I'll even bold it for you. In fact, I take back my comment. You lack any imagination whatsoever.

And I said that giving to the poor was just an example! I listed other good things Michael did in addition.

And quoting that saying of Jesus does not help you. Are you saying that we shouldn't help the poor? That we shouldn't strive to end poverty? How is that very Christian of you?

more blabber.
boring

 

[Vox]

Really, why is that? Because he betrayed Jesus? Because he was stealing from the treasury? Because he thought Jesus was going to become the ruler then and there and he (Judas) would be sitting pretty, and when it didn't work out, he threw Jesus under the bus?
Because rather than ask forgiveness he took the chicken way out?

Or do you have some other information that we're missing?

you have not heard the modern day theory that if not of Judas, Jesus Christ would not be able to accomplish His mission.
That is widely circulated amongst some circles.

Like mine. Nobody would worship Jesus if he hadn't died on the cross. If not for Judas, half of the Old Testament prophecies wouldn't have been fulfilled. How well do you think the early Catholic Church would have survived if not for being able to claim that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament? The Chief Priests and elders would have a much easier time trying to dismantle the religion piece by piece.

BS.

The problem of Judas is not only that he betrayed Jesus, but that he never repented - and he has had time and the possibility. He did regret what he did and threw the money back, but he did not come back to Jesus and committed suicide. Yet nobody knows what was he thinking the last few moments and therefore it is a great enigma, which we will learn about on the other side.

Still doesn't make Judas a hero or a "saint" as you have proposed - that is a BS

 

[Vox]

Thanks, Vox! I know of many stories of Catholics who refused to deny their faith in Christ, priests and nuns held in communist prisons who refused to blaspheme the eucharist or do some blasphemous act for the communists. Richard Wurmbrand gave many accounts of such people in his book Marx and Satan. Which I read and have given away to a friend so they can read it. Otherwise I would quote some stories here. He was held in Communist prisons and tortured for Christ for 17 years and he met people of many different faiths, Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopals, Pentacostal, Methodist....... I am quite sure if he were here he would explain the difference in believing one has faith and having one's faith tested to know one has faith. These are two completely different things and as I recall? None of them denied Christ. Not one that I can recall. It seems to be the assumption among the evangelical believers that we will not be here for any such sufferings because as Americans we are special and would be raptured before we were ever tortured for Christ by Communists. As the days draw nearer to Communist rule inside the USA I believe that anything is possible and my prayer is we are all ready for "anything." It feels like the beginnings of Matthew 24 already to me.

There was just one ecumenical Church of Christ in the soviet GULAG.
It included everybody, even non-Christian believers - the stories are described by many survivors, witnesses and even GULAG workers themselves ( yes, there were people of faith and character even on THAT side).

As for the rupture... I don't believe it. neither do I believe in millennium and other Armageddon predictions. I hold mostly preterist views of the Revelation with some of the symbolic hint to that. But I do not think the people who wholeheartedly believe the other way are in any way wrong - and that is the beauty of being a Christian
I just think it is going to be as simple as Jesus Himself described it. I just stick to the scripture.

How Jesus described it? With all of the destruction and death and stuff? And by the way, Revelation is technically scripture.

Read the Gospels and you will find out. Revelation is not Gospels, it is a totally separate part of the Bible.