How to sell me on socialism.

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Translation: as a typical liberal I'm far too stupid to understand that if one man becomes wealthy it does not mean that another man is made poor. It s not zero sum.

There is nothing wrong with wealth. It is excessive wealth that is a problem.

problem???????? Why not tell us why??????????????

Review Message #55 for a simple lesson in very basic economics. Then read a few books and you might be ready to participate in this discussion. Because as of now you aren't.

Translation: as a typical liberal I'm far too stupid to understand that if one man becomes wealthy it does not mean another man is made poor. It's not zero sum.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Bull shit, and that is why you believe the things you do. Wealth is created and it is not finite. Argue all you want to, that fact won't change.

In spite of the erroneous choice of words by various officials and reporters, wealth is not "created." It is accumulated by one means or another.

Unlike the kind of inflationary ersatz wealth which is created by printing money when there is nothing to back it up, real wealth is acquired. Not "created."

Dear stupid,you clean forgot to say why you feel wealth is acquired; not created.

 

[Tehon]

Government likes to say I am granted the "privilege" of driving my car on public roads. But unless you have done something to invalidate that privilege you have the same right to drive as do I and millions of others.

If Government were to deny your eligibility to drive a car because of your race would that be denial of a civil "privilege" or a civil right?

I would suggest that allowing a visiting foreigner to drive a car on our streets and highways is a privilege. But any fully accredited American citizen who has done nothing to relinquish it has as much right to drive a car as any other citizen -- regardless of what noun or adjective Government chooses to assign to it.

For Government to say it is granting you the "privilege" of driving a car is in fact rather arrogant. The fact that you so readily accept and agree with it is says a lot about you. And with that in mind, just how do you feel about Bill Gates (and others) being able to accumulate such monumentally excessive wealth?

Wrong again. No one has a right to drive a car. Period.

If they denied it to me because of my race it would be racial discrimination, which is against the law. Still no right to drive.

No one has a right to drive a car.

It has nothing to do with me, it's just a fact.

It is Bill Gates' right to gain as much wealth as he can. As it is for all of us.

It is Bill Gates' right to gain as much wealth as he can. As it is for all of us.

No such natural right exists.

"Natural right?, Natural rights aren't the only rights.

Correct, those rights not deemed natural are granted by law and are not immutable.

But those right afforded to us by the constitution include the pursuit of happiness.

I'm just glad you lunatics aren't in charge.

But those right afforded to us by the constitution include the pursuit of happiness.

That was the declaration of independence. The constitution established justice, domestic tranquility and the promotion of the general welfare of the people.

I'm just glad you lunatics aren't in charge.

You think that wanting to preserve a healthy economy that is beneficial in securing domestic tranquility is a mental condition but see nothing wrong with hoarding vast sums of money that creates an unhealthy economy and serves to undermine the general welfare of our people is perfectly sane. You've been indoctrinated.

 

[PredFan]

Again, no one has a right to drive a car. The roads, the bridges, the licenses, the lights, the signs, all of it is owned by the state or the fed. They make the rules, you have to abide by them or you don't drive. They can do that because there is no right to drive.

The roads, the bridges, the lights, signs, etc., are administered by the state or federal governments. But they are owned by the People.

You need to adjust your thinking to accommodate that reality. It will help you to view these things with greater clarity.

The "people" is the state and the fed.

 

[PredFan]

Bull shit, and that is why you believe the things you do. Wealth is created and it is not finite. Argue all you want to, that fact won't change.

In spite of the erroneous choice of words by various officials and reporters, wealth is not "created." It is accumulated by one means or another.

Unlike the kind of inflationary ersatz wealth which is created by printing money when there is nothing to back it up, real wealth is acquired. Not "created."

 

[PredFan]

Wrong again. No one has a right to drive a car. Period.

If they denied it to me because of my race it would be racial discrimination, which is against the law. Still no right to drive.

No one has a right to drive a car.

It has nothing to do with me, it's just a fact.

It is Bill Gates' right to gain as much wealth as he can. As it is for all of us.

It is Bill Gates' right to gain as much wealth as he can. As it is for all of us.

No such natural right exists.

"Natural right?, Natural rights aren't the only rights.

Correct, those rights not deemed natural are granted by law and are not immutable.

But those right afforded to us by the constitution include the pursuit of happiness.

I'm just glad you lunatics aren't in charge.

But those right afforded to us by the constitution include the pursuit of happiness.

That was the declaration of independence. The constitution established justice, domestic tranquility and the promotion of the general welfare of the people.

I'm just glad you lunatics aren't in charge.

You think that wanting to preserve a healthy economy that is beneficial in securing domestic tranquility is a mental condition but see nothing wrong with hoarding vast sums of money that creates an unhealthy economy and serves to undermine the general welfare of our people is perfectly sane. You've been indoctrinated.

No, the mental condition leads you to believe that your plan will preserve a healthy economy and secure domestic tranquility.

 

[petro]

Socialism destroys individualism, creativity, innovation. If there is no incentive for personal gain for the individual the society as whole will suffer.
America would never be the economic powerhouse and creator of most of the worlds advances in the last 2 centuries with socialist principles.
Guess I fail at selling socialism.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Wrong again. No one has a right to drive a car. Period.

If they denied it to me because of my race it would be racial discrimination, which is against the law. Still no right to drive.

No one has a right to drive a car.

It has nothing to do with me, it's just a fact.

It is Bill Gates' right to gain as much wealth as he can. As it is for all of us.

It is Bill Gates' right to gain as much wealth as he can. As it is for all of us.

No such natural right exists.

"Natural right?, Natural rights aren't the only rights.

Correct, those rights not deemed natural are granted by law and are not immutable.

But those right afforded to us by the constitution include the pursuit of happiness.

I'm just glad you lunatics aren't in charge.

But those right afforded to us by the constitution include the pursuit of happiness.

That was the declaration of independence. The constitution established justice, domestic tranquility and the promotion of the general welfare of the people.

I'm just glad you lunatics aren't in charge.

You think that wanting to preserve a healthy economy that is beneficial in securing domestic tranquility is a mental condition but see nothing wrong with hoarding vast sums of money that creates an unhealthy economy and serves to undermine the general welfare of our people is perfectly sane. You've been indoctrinated.

Of course no one hoards money in there mattress anymore. They put it in a bank where owing to the fractional reserve system it is multiplied by 10 and loaned out to grow the economy. Loans might include small business loans mortgages car loans school loans etc.

 

[Tehon]

No such natural right exists.

"Natural right?, Natural rights aren't the only rights.

Correct, those rights not deemed natural are granted by law and are not immutable.

But those right afforded to us by the constitution include the pursuit of happiness.

I'm just glad you lunatics aren't in charge.

But those right afforded to us by the constitution include the pursuit of happiness.

That was the declaration of independence. The constitution established justice, domestic tranquility and the promotion of the general welfare of the people.

I'm just glad you lunatics aren't in charge.

You think that wanting to preserve a healthy economy that is beneficial in securing domestic tranquility is a mental condition but see nothing wrong with hoarding vast sums of money that creates an unhealthy economy and serves to undermine the general welfare of our people is perfectly sane. You've been indoctrinated.

Of course no one hoards money in there mattress anymore. They put it in a bank where owing to the fractional reserve system it is multiplied by 10 and loaned out to grow the economy. Loans might include small business loans mortgages car loans school loans etc.

In other words it creates more debt and further enriches the banking class.
Why not let the government divvy it out where people could use it to meet the needs you expressed interest free?

 

[PredFan]

Socialism destroys individualism, creativity, innovation. If there is no incentive for personal gain for the individual the society as whole will suffer.
America would never be the economic powerhouse and creator of most of the worlds advances in the last 2 centuries with socialist principles.
Guess I fail at selling socialism.

I believe that if we installed socialism with the rules from my OP, then it could work. The motivation and creativity could result in raising up everyone. As long as no one is better off than another.

Of course the current crop of socialists don't want that. They want to stay rich and prevent anyone else from joining their ranks.

 

[MikeK]

Socialism destroys individualism, creativity, innovation. If there is no incentive for personal gain for the individual the society as whole will suffer.
America would never be the economic powerhouse and creator of most of the worlds advances in the last 2 centuries with socialist principles.

Guess I fail at selling socialism.

Who is interested in buying it.

Do you think full-blown socialism is the same as the implementation of certain select socialist systems, such as Social Security, Medicare, public schools, public transportation, etc.? Or do you think those select socialist systems should be eliminated from American society?

Do you think enjoying a turkey dinner means you must eat the whole turkey?

Which class of Americans do you believe are most opposed to socialist principles; upper class, middle class, lower class? And why?

 

[MikeK]

Socialism destroys individualism, creativity, innovation. If there is no incentive for personal gain for the individual the society as whole will suffer.
America would never be the economic powerhouse and creator of most of the worlds advances in the last 2 centuries with socialist principles.

Guess I fail at selling socialism.

That's not socialism. It's communism. Do you know the difference?

[...]

Of course the current crop of socialists don't want that. They want to stay rich and prevent anyone else from joining their ranks.

That's not socialism. It's full-blown capitalism -- and it is making serious inroads in America.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

That's not socialism. It's communism. Do you know the difference?

no difference libsocialism was conceived of as a stepping stone to communism. Once you believe big govt works you always want more and more of it until you are communist, but even then all you want is even more govt because thats what communists always want!!

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Do you think enjoying a turkey dinner means you must eat the whole turkey?

how stupid can you be??? Govt is now far bigger than ever and what does Obama/Sanders want???? Exactly, to make it far bigger still!!!!


Thomas Jefferson:
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

 

[PredFan]

Socialism destroys individualism, creativity, innovation. If there is no incentive for personal gain for the individual the society as whole will suffer.
America would never be the economic powerhouse and creator of most of the worlds advances in the last 2 centuries with socialist principles.

Guess I fail at selling socialism.

That's not socialism. It's communism. Do you know the difference?

[...]

Of course the current crop of socialists don't want that. They want to stay rich and prevent anyone else from joining their ranks.

That's not socialism. It's full-blown capitalism -- and it is making serious inroads in America.

Yes I do and that wasn't me who said that.

 

[idb]

Do you think enjoying a turkey dinner means you must eat the whole turkey?

how stupid can you be??? Govt is now far bigger than ever and what does Obama/Sanders want???? Exactly, to make it far bigger still!!!!


Thomas Jefferson:
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

Power isn't only accumulated by government.
Wealth accumulates power and 'tyranny' isn't limited to governments.
Where would the restriction on unbridled use of private power come from?
Or, perhaps you favour a return to a modern form of feudalism.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Where would the restriction on unbridled use of private power come from?
.

you clean forgot to say what your best example of unbridled private power is?? Do you have any idea??

How do you compete with Hitler Stalin and Mao killing 200 million or the modern liberal war on the American family and the black family in particular??

 

[idb]

Where would the restriction on unbridled use of private power come from?
.

you clean forgot to say what your best example of unbridled private power is?? Do you have any idea??

How do you compete with Hitler Stalin and Mao killing 200 million or the modern liberal war on the American family and the black family in particular??

So, if 200 million is too many...what number is acceptable in your mind for your principle of freedom from state interference?

 

[MikeK]

no difference libsocialism was conceived of as a stepping stone to communism. Once you believe big govt works you always want more and more of it until you are communist, but even then all you want is even more govt because thats what communists always want!!

I've tried to explain to you in previous messages that anti-communist propaganda, as popularized by the opportunistic Senator Eugene McCarthy back in the fifties, is utterly fraudulent. Selling the fear of communism to Americans is analogous to selling life rafts to Bedouins in the desert -- but it seems there still are some Americans who fall for it.

I'll ask you to apply some common sense reasoning to the fact that every country which ever has adopted communism did so having just suffered economic collapse and/or emerged from the ruinous effects of long-term, massively destructive war. Communism is a means by which a destitute and desperate nation can avoid total devastation, starvation, and enslavement by foreign occupation.

America is the richest, most powerful nation on Earth -- so why in the world would we adopt a communist economy and system of government? So just think about those nations which did adopt communism and give it some thought.

The super-rich in America have spent a great deal of money promoting anti-communist anxiety. Their effort was very successful for a number of years but most Americans have since come to realize that it's a ridiculous scare tactic intended to defeat the implementation of certain socialist policies, such as the 40-hour work-week, paid vacations, Social Security, and many other programs and practices which are beneficial to working class Americans.

Socialism is not Communism and a few well chosen socialist policies does not add up to full-blown Socialism. The best system by far is what we have, which is capitalism which is regulated by some very productive and beneficial socialist policies.

 

[danielpalos]

You want to get me to support the idea of socialism? Here's how you do it.

The essential idea is that everyone has the same as everyone else, there are no rich and no poor.

1. The rich, like Gates, the Clintons, Warren Buffet, Al Gore, Michael Moore, Cher, Meryl Streep, and also the Koch Brothers, all of them must give up their riches.

2. The government controls the means of production, everyone gets paid the same.

3. The law of the land is that you must work. Unless it is medically impossible for you to do so, you have to have a job. Severe penalties for those who do not. You can and will get fired if you do not work to standards, and severe penalties for that as well.

4. As production and GDP increases, everyone gets raises.

The problem with socialism as Crazy Bernie and Hollywood and the DNC want is that they have no intention of giving up their riches. The rest of us little people will, but they won't. It will fail as it always has.

Socialism starts with a social contract. Equality and equal protection of the law, is what we are guaranteed in our social contracts.

Government is a "means of production"; sovereignty proves it. The law of the land, is employment at will. We merely need to have socialism bailout capitalism, through the equality of equal protection of the law, for unemployment compensation in our at-will employment States.

Solving simple poverty, increases our standard of living to that extent.